There are several aspects to this that could be looked at individually or collectively.
The first aspect, of course, is his personal history of molestation. Is there a parallel to the lifestyle they lived and the way we lived in The Way? I can't really say. "Reality" TV is notorious for being anything but real, so we can't really know how they lived. That makes comparison of the two lifestyles difficult, if not impossible. I do know there was child molestation in The Way. Some even resulted in documented convictions and prison time for the perpetrators. I fear too much went unreported, though.
Wierwille, himself, stood before groups of Way Corps students (documented on GSC by people who were present) and recounted personal incidents that amount to sexual abuse of one of his own children. Did he molest this individual? The person involved says he didn't. Regardless, he stood before vulnerable students and openly made the claim, whether it was true or not. I think (only my personal opinion) that he made this claim as part of an on-going grooming of potential victims.
Collectively speaking, we can't ignore that the family made a concerted effort to sweep this under the carpet, both when it happened and as it has been recently revisited. This sounds frighteningly similar to The Way's "lockbox" policy and their insistence on keeping indiscretion hidden, "lest the ministry be blamed".
The denial and cognitive dissonance of parties involved is another aspect that is all too familiar to past members of The Way.
edit: Maybe this will evolve to a point of belonging in About The Way.
I tend to believe that the molestations did occur. And the fact that they are being defended by big-name fundies makes it even worse. Where it is _at least_ as bad and as malevolent as TWI. (And I'm being relatively charitable here.)
Hell, read some of their 'biblical' reasonings for why what they did 'wasn't so bad'. (Like why it isn't as bad as homosexuality.) :-\
I tend to believe that the molestations did occur. And the fact that they are being defended by big-name fundies makes it even worse. Where it is _at least_ as bad and as malevolent as TWI. (And I'm being relatively charitable here.)
Comparing an old man lecher with a 14-year-old doesn't seem right IMHO. The old man was looking for satisfaction, and, perhaps the boy was as well - yet I tend to think there was more curiosity than anything else. I've taught many youngsters that age and I have to tell you that all 14 yr.olds are not created equally. Some are very mature mentally, physically, and in all other ways and some not so much.
I don't know how long they've been on the air, but these tragic events would have to have happened 13 years ago. Josh is 27 now and this occurred when he was 14, so that's 13 years. The reason I bring this up is that maybe dealing with it the way they did had nothing to do with the show.(?) If that's the case, it's probably best that once everything was handled, and the girls received the appropriate apology and his parents' discipline, perhaps that should have been the end of it - - especially in view of his youth.
In I Cor. 13, one of those statements about "charity" what it does and what it doesn't do.....one of those, says "it covers over in silence". This is the wisest thing, again, IMHO. It allows the "sinner" to rise above the guilt and condemnation. It also keeps others from putting him down by bringing this up again. It's the same way God forgives us and removes our sin so far away....."as far as the East is from the West"
Now, please don't start piling on me as a "Duggar apologist" because that's not where I'm coming from.
No, I'm comparing an old man lecher with a other lechers/family members who behave that way, and the religious fundies who defend that behaviour. ... Clear as mud? :-D
I checked with Google and found a blog that someone had been keeping. Season 6 was in 2012. That means that they first went on the air in 2006 (2012 - 6 = 2006) That year Joshua was 18. Here's how I figured that: This is their 9th season. (2015 - 2006). If Josh is 27 now he was 18 when the series began. That was 4 years after the molestations. It doesn't seem like anything was swept under the rug for the benefit of the show as it seems unlikely that there was any thought of it at that time.
The show began in September, 2005, as "14 Children and Pregnant Again!". It has since gone through an evolution that included name changes. In 2006, Oprah Winfrey planned to feature them on her show. During the week she and her staff spent interviewing and taping them, the situation came to light. She immediately contacted a child abuse hotline who in turn contacted Arkansas state authorities. She then canceled production and the show never aired. Law enforcement agencies became involved with the situation almost immediately. That was 2006. It's now 2015. During the years between, there have been about 230 episodes/specials aired under various titles. We are just now finding out about the situation.
The essence of the controversy is much larger than the molestation, itself. It's about sweeping things under the rug and hiding them for the sake of continuing the show while millions and millions of dollars continued to change hands. It's about promoting themselves as examples of purity while simultaneously practicing deliberate deception. It smacks of The Way's "lockbox" policy and keeping silent "lest the ministry be blamed".
Waysider - where dd you get your info? I'm not challenging you, I'd just like to know. You got a whole lot more than I found and that puts things in a different light.
Waysider - where dd you get your info? I'm not challenging you, I'd just like to know. You got a whole lot more than I found and that puts things in a different light.
Thanks, Waysider. I've looked over most of it and I guess it needs more careful reading. I do agree that my prior stand was probably premature, at least, it part.
Waysider replies (on point :-) ) "The show began in September, 2005, as "14 Children and Pregnant Again!". It has since gone through an evolution that included name changes. In 2006, Oprah Winfrey planned to feature them on her show. During the week she and her staff spent interviewing and taping them, the situation came to light. She immediately contacted a child abuse hotline who in turn contacted Arkansas state authorities. She then canceled production and the show never aired. Law enforcement agencies became involved with the situation almost immediately. That was 2006. It's now 2015. During the years between, there have been about 230 episodes/specials aired under various titles. We are just now finding out about the situation.
The essence of the controversy is much larger than the molestation, itself. It's about sweeping things under the rug and hiding them for the sake of continuing the show while millions and millions of dollars continued to change hands. It's about promoting themselves as examples of purity while simultaneously practicing deliberate deception. It smacks of The Way's "lockbox" policy and keeping silent "lest the ministry be blamed".
And I agree totally with his rendering as to why it's vile. ... ((sigh)) Must be the liberal in me, perhaps. ... ;-)
Just curious, Ron. Do you think it's vile? ... ;-)
I have never seen the program and do not know much about it. I am not much of a teevee watcher and even had to ask who Kim Kardashian is/was. I do not watch that duck hunt show or Oprah, either.
I am not qualified to judge them, their character, their lives or anything else concerning them as you seem to be.
One can be "qualified to judge them, their character, their lives or anything else concerning them" when they do crap like that. Yes we can. ... Like you not having any qualms about judging liberals, ... (even when it's not called for, I wager).
So spare me the 'Judge not' yammer. ... You do it. I do it. Everybody does it. Even when we're 'not qualified'. (Like judging that 'Liberalism is a mental illness'? ;-) )
Hold up there, Garth, for a minute please. You hate them so much that your posts are approaching nasty! Before you quoted Waysider's response, you surely felt they were "vile" but those were not your reasons. You'd have said something of the like if they were....and not much of what he revealed was known to us then. I'd really like to know what they are!
Because of the sexual behavior of the guys towards their sisters. And the excuses made for it. And I found Waysider's response was apt. And accurate. It's like many people's here re: TWI's leadership and their behavior. Many of us (including you, I daresay) voiced our opinion about that too. Even if we didn't directly experience it. ... I just find his response appropriate, and I side with it. And I'm not trying to take credit for it, either.
So I stand by what I say. Now if Waysider doesn't wish for me to do so, then I'll comply with his wishes (NOT yours) and retract what I said. (Altho' I still agree with it.)
"you surely felt they were "vile" but those were not your reasons." ... Read what I said again please. They WERE my reasons.
"There is blood in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy," Jessa Duggar's father-in-law wrote in a blog post titled "Grace Greater Than Our Sin" on Sunday, May 24. "Finally, the Duggar family’s opponents have found what they have been eagerly waiting for: shocking revelations of scandal by Jim Bob and Michelle’s firstborn son, Josh."
There are many things about this situation that have bothered me a lot - so much so that I had nightmares about it the night after the story broke. I had a hard time figuring out why it bothered me so much (besides the whole "sexually fondling your young sibling is wrong" stuff.) And it comes back to my time in twi from childhood to adulthood.
Here are the things that bother me:
1. The hiding of the sin - dealing with the problem in-house instead of involving proper authorities who could actually HELP and COUNSEL those involved. The Duggars found out their son was molesting his sisters. They went to the CHURCH to get help, and decided to send their son to a "christian camp" with hard labor to help him get over the problem. They didn't get any real counselling for any of the kids or themselves. Sound like TWI much? How often was child molestation/abuse swept under the rug by leadership? I know of several instances listed on this site, and more that I have known about personally.
2. They brought him to a cop for a "talking to" and the cop turned out to have his own collection of child porn that he is now spending time in prison for. How many times were people in TWI held up as great examples to us who had the worst crap in their lives? VPW's marriage anyone? Martindale's? All the extramarital sex and abuse and rape, and these a s s h o l e s are held up as shining examples. Just like this cop. Who never filed a report.
3. Homosexuality is the ultimate sin... Yup. Totally willing to forgive the son who molested the daughters, sweep it under the rug, but the whole while accusing people they had never met - of molesting children, namely the LGBT community. Michelle Duggar recorded a robo call urging people to vote against legislation for equal rights for the LGBT community BECAUSE THEY WILL MOLEST YOUR CHILDREN. Really? How about your STRAIGHT SON who molested your kids? How about how he is now running (oops, formerly running) a HATE GROUP against homosexuals. Yup, because consensual sex between adults is so much worse than feeling up your five year old sister.
4. The throw away nature of females - his sisters. Taught that they are only good if they remain physically/sexually pure. That they are "like a cup filled with other people's spit" if they have premarital sex. Taught to be submissive to the male authority figure. Taught that their only purpose is to serve the man. Men are superior in every way, and her worth only comes from serving them. The Duggar's statement focuses on their SON and how he has recovered, nothing about the daughters he molested.
5. The attitude that we should all just let bygones be bygones because he is forgiven. He came back after a couple months of hard labor to LIVE in the SAME HOUSE with his victims, who he molested in their sleep. EVERY DAY having to know that he DEFILED YOU (because of their purity teachings) and you have to trust him again. Can you imagine? They homeschooled. There was no where those girls could go to get away from him. And everyone expected (and demanded) that they just forgive him and trust him and carry on as if nothing had happened. Reminds me of so many times I had to work with people who had done terrible things to me - because they had gotten "back in fellowship" with God. Like my Way Disciple coordinator who would tell strangers we were witnessing to that I had slept with him (a LIE) and once he was confronted by leadership I had to continue to work with him.
6. That there are so many "fans" that still defend him and the parents... saying that anyone who says differently is attacking "family values" or "Christian values" - last time I looked child molestation is not covered under "family values" or "Christian values." Don't hold yourself up as a paragon of virtue while you cover up the crap in your past. Don't come to me telling me about the "Rightly divided Word of God" when you are raping young women behind closed doors all the while telling them you are healing them. And those people on the internet who are still "Team Duggar" need to take a little deeper look. Just like we did when we found out about the cover up in twi.
And I'm out. Have a great night everyone. Hoping mine is free of Duggar induced PTSD nightmares. Love ya.
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waysider
There are several aspects to this that could be looked at individually or collectively.
The first aspect, of course, is his personal history of molestation. Is there a parallel to the lifestyle they lived and the way we lived in The Way? I can't really say. "Reality" TV is notorious for being anything but real, so we can't really know how they lived. That makes comparison of the two lifestyles difficult, if not impossible. I do know there was child molestation in The Way. Some even resulted in documented convictions and prison time for the perpetrators. I fear too much went unreported, though.
Wierwille, himself, stood before groups of Way Corps students (documented on GSC by people who were present) and recounted personal incidents that amount to sexual abuse of one of his own children. Did he molest this individual? The person involved says he didn't. Regardless, he stood before vulnerable students and openly made the claim, whether it was true or not. I think (only my personal opinion) that he made this claim as part of an on-going grooming of potential victims.
Collectively speaking, we can't ignore that the family made a concerted effort to sweep this under the carpet, both when it happened and as it has been recently revisited. This sounds frighteningly similar to The Way's "lockbox" policy and their insistence on keeping indiscretion hidden, "lest the ministry be blamed".
The denial and cognitive dissonance of parties involved is another aspect that is all too familiar to past members of The Way.
edit: Maybe this will evolve to a point of belonging in About The Way.
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GarthP2000
I tend to believe that the molestations did occur. And the fact that they are being defended by big-name fundies makes it even worse. Where it is _at least_ as bad and as malevolent as TWI. (And I'm being relatively charitable here.)
Hell, read some of their 'biblical' reasonings for why what they did 'wasn't so bad'. (Like why it isn't as bad as homosexuality.) :-\
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waysider
That's what I meant when I referred to their cognitive dissonance.
edit: I didn't state that clearly. I meant that not as a condemnation of homosexuality but as a condemnation of their reasoning process.
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krys
Comparing an old man lecher with a 14-year-old doesn't seem right IMHO. The old man was looking for satisfaction, and, perhaps the boy was as well - yet I tend to think there was more curiosity than anything else. I've taught many youngsters that age and I have to tell you that all 14 yr.olds are not created equally. Some are very mature mentally, physically, and in all other ways and some not so much.
I don't know how long they've been on the air, but these tragic events would have to have happened 13 years ago. Josh is 27 now and this occurred when he was 14, so that's 13 years. The reason I bring this up is that maybe dealing with it the way they did had nothing to do with the show.(?) If that's the case, it's probably best that once everything was handled, and the girls received the appropriate apology and his parents' discipline, perhaps that should have been the end of it - - especially in view of his youth.
In I Cor. 13, one of those statements about "charity" what it does and what it doesn't do.....one of those, says "it covers over in silence". This is the wisest thing, again, IMHO. It allows the "sinner" to rise above the guilt and condemnation. It also keeps others from putting him down by bringing this up again. It's the same way God forgives us and removes our sin so far away....."as far as the East is from the West"
Now, please don't start piling on me as a "Duggar apologist" because that's not where I'm coming from.
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GarthP2000
No, I'm comparing an old man lecher with a other lechers/family members who behave that way, and the religious fundies who defend that behaviour. ... Clear as mud? :-D
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krys
I checked with Google and found a blog that someone had been keeping. Season 6 was in 2012. That means that they first went on the air in 2006 (2012 - 6 = 2006) That year Joshua was 18. Here's how I figured that: This is their 9th season. (2015 - 2006). If Josh is 27 now he was 18 when the series began. That was 4 years after the molestations. It doesn't seem like anything was swept under the rug for the benefit of the show as it seems unlikely that there was any thought of it at that time.
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GarthP2000
The Duggers are still vile!
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Ron G.
Why do you think they are 'vile'?
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waysider
The show began in September, 2005, as "14 Children and Pregnant Again!". It has since gone through an evolution that included name changes. In 2006, Oprah Winfrey planned to feature them on her show. During the week she and her staff spent interviewing and taping them, the situation came to light. She immediately contacted a child abuse hotline who in turn contacted Arkansas state authorities. She then canceled production and the show never aired. Law enforcement agencies became involved with the situation almost immediately. That was 2006. It's now 2015. During the years between, there have been about 230 episodes/specials aired under various titles. We are just now finding out about the situation.
The essence of the controversy is much larger than the molestation, itself. It's about sweeping things under the rug and hiding them for the sake of continuing the show while millions and millions of dollars continued to change hands. It's about promoting themselves as examples of purity while simultaneously practicing deliberate deception. It smacks of The Way's "lockbox" policy and keeping silent "lest the ministry be blamed".
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Tzaia
Then again regular people, generally speaking, don't have entertainment value.
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krys
Waysider - where dd you get your info? I'm not challenging you, I'd just like to know. You got a whole lot more than I found and that puts things in a different light.
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waysider
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
Lots of sub-links to follow in the above if so desired.
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krys
Thanks, Waysider. I've looked over most of it and I guess it needs more careful reading. I do agree that my prior stand was probably premature, at least, it part.
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GarthP2000
Ron sez "Why do you think they are 'vile'?"
Waysider replies (on point :-) ) "The show began in September, 2005, as "14 Children and Pregnant Again!". It has since gone through an evolution that included name changes. In 2006, Oprah Winfrey planned to feature them on her show. During the week she and her staff spent interviewing and taping them, the situation came to light. She immediately contacted a child abuse hotline who in turn contacted Arkansas state authorities. She then canceled production and the show never aired. Law enforcement agencies became involved with the situation almost immediately. That was 2006. It's now 2015. During the years between, there have been about 230 episodes/specials aired under various titles. We are just now finding out about the situation.
The essence of the controversy is much larger than the molestation, itself. It's about sweeping things under the rug and hiding them for the sake of continuing the show while millions and millions of dollars continued to change hands. It's about promoting themselves as examples of purity while simultaneously practicing deliberate deception. It smacks of The Way's "lockbox" policy and keeping silent "lest the ministry be blamed".
And I agree totally with his rendering as to why it's vile. ... ((sigh)) Must be the liberal in me, perhaps. ... ;-)
Just curious, Ron. Do you think it's vile? ... ;-)
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Ron G.
I have never seen the program and do not know much about it. I am not much of a teevee watcher and even had to ask who Kim Kardashian is/was. I do not watch that duck hunt show or Oprah, either.
I am not qualified to judge them, their character, their lives or anything else concerning them as you seem to be.
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GarthP2000
One can be "qualified to judge them, their character, their lives or anything else concerning them" when they do crap like that. Yes we can. ... Like you not having any qualms about judging liberals, ... (even when it's not called for, I wager).
So spare me the 'Judge not' yammer. ... You do it. I do it. Everybody does it. Even when we're 'not qualified'. (Like judging that 'Liberalism is a mental illness'? ;-) )
M-m-m-kay?
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krys
Hold up there, Garth, for a minute please. You hate them so much that your posts are approaching nasty! Before you quoted Waysider's response, you surely felt they were "vile" but those were not your reasons. You'd have said something of the like if they were....and not much of what he revealed was known to us then. I'd really like to know what they are!
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GarthP2000
Because of the sexual behavior of the guys towards their sisters. And the excuses made for it. And I found Waysider's response was apt. And accurate. It's like many people's here re: TWI's leadership and their behavior. Many of us (including you, I daresay) voiced our opinion about that too. Even if we didn't directly experience it. ... I just find his response appropriate, and I side with it. And I'm not trying to take credit for it, either.
So I stand by what I say. Now if Waysider doesn't wish for me to do so, then I'll comply with his wishes (NOT yours) and retract what I said. (Altho' I still agree with it.)
"you surely felt they were "vile" but those were not your reasons." ... Read what I said again please. They WERE my reasons.
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waysider
What if we just say that what they did was vile?
I think we can all agree on that.
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GarthP2000
I would have to add the "why they did it" as vile also. Sorry, but screwing your sister = not vile? Hello?? (((tapping microphone))) This thing on?
NO excuses for sexual abuses, ... None!
And with that, I spoke my piece. Judge it as you will.
Ciao!
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krys
Waysider, that's fine by me. That is the perfect solution.
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krys
Garth, are you really gone from this conversation?
Did you really read the links Waysider posted? He didn't screw his sisters! I guess you've made up your mind and don't want to bother with the facts.
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GarthP2000
Uhh, yes he did. How about these links (ie., FACTS)?
------------
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/creationist-pastor-if-evolution-is-true-then-it-wasnt-wrong-for-josh-duggar-to-molest-his-sisters/
------------
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/jessa-duggars-father-in-law-michael-seewald-responds-to-josh-scandal-2015255 - "Support from the Seewalds. While the Duggar family is being heavily scrutinized for their actions after Josh Duggar allegedly molested five girls -- some reportedly his sisters -- back when he was a teen.
"There is blood in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy," Jessa Duggar's father-in-law wrote in a blog post titled "Grace Greater Than Our Sin" on Sunday, May 24. "Finally, the Duggar family’s opponents have found what they have been eagerly waiting for: shocking revelations of scandal by Jim Bob and Michelle’s firstborn son, Josh."
-----------
http://jezebel.com/the-duggar-girls-learned-to-kiss-from-jim-bob-and-josh-1706786807
-----------
Uummm, who has the FACTS now, hhmmm?
"Ddaass right, kkeeedddss!"
<_<
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JavaJane
There are many things about this situation that have bothered me a lot - so much so that I had nightmares about it the night after the story broke. I had a hard time figuring out why it bothered me so much (besides the whole "sexually fondling your young sibling is wrong" stuff.) And it comes back to my time in twi from childhood to adulthood.
Here are the things that bother me:
1. The hiding of the sin - dealing with the problem in-house instead of involving proper authorities who could actually HELP and COUNSEL those involved. The Duggars found out their son was molesting his sisters. They went to the CHURCH to get help, and decided to send their son to a "christian camp" with hard labor to help him get over the problem. They didn't get any real counselling for any of the kids or themselves. Sound like TWI much? How often was child molestation/abuse swept under the rug by leadership? I know of several instances listed on this site, and more that I have known about personally.
2. They brought him to a cop for a "talking to" and the cop turned out to have his own collection of child porn that he is now spending time in prison for. How many times were people in TWI held up as great examples to us who had the worst crap in their lives? VPW's marriage anyone? Martindale's? All the extramarital sex and abuse and rape, and these a s s h o l e s are held up as shining examples. Just like this cop. Who never filed a report.
3. Homosexuality is the ultimate sin... Yup. Totally willing to forgive the son who molested the daughters, sweep it under the rug, but the whole while accusing people they had never met - of molesting children, namely the LGBT community. Michelle Duggar recorded a robo call urging people to vote against legislation for equal rights for the LGBT community BECAUSE THEY WILL MOLEST YOUR CHILDREN. Really? How about your STRAIGHT SON who molested your kids? How about how he is now running (oops, formerly running) a HATE GROUP against homosexuals. Yup, because consensual sex between adults is so much worse than feeling up your five year old sister.
4. The throw away nature of females - his sisters. Taught that they are only good if they remain physically/sexually pure. That they are "like a cup filled with other people's spit" if they have premarital sex. Taught to be submissive to the male authority figure. Taught that their only purpose is to serve the man. Men are superior in every way, and her worth only comes from serving them. The Duggar's statement focuses on their SON and how he has recovered, nothing about the daughters he molested.
5. The attitude that we should all just let bygones be bygones because he is forgiven. He came back after a couple months of hard labor to LIVE in the SAME HOUSE with his victims, who he molested in their sleep. EVERY DAY having to know that he DEFILED YOU (because of their purity teachings) and you have to trust him again. Can you imagine? They homeschooled. There was no where those girls could go to get away from him. And everyone expected (and demanded) that they just forgive him and trust him and carry on as if nothing had happened. Reminds me of so many times I had to work with people who had done terrible things to me - because they had gotten "back in fellowship" with God. Like my Way Disciple coordinator who would tell strangers we were witnessing to that I had slept with him (a LIE) and once he was confronted by leadership I had to continue to work with him.
6. That there are so many "fans" that still defend him and the parents... saying that anyone who says differently is attacking "family values" or "Christian values" - last time I looked child molestation is not covered under "family values" or "Christian values." Don't hold yourself up as a paragon of virtue while you cover up the crap in your past. Don't come to me telling me about the "Rightly divided Word of God" when you are raping young women behind closed doors all the while telling them you are healing them. And those people on the internet who are still "Team Duggar" need to take a little deeper look. Just like we did when we found out about the cover up in twi.
And I'm out. Have a great night everyone. Hoping mine is free of Duggar induced PTSD nightmares. Love ya.
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