Thirty Years and thirty pieces of silver

[skyrider]

Welcome to Greasespot Café and its vast array of venues. Many come here for a variety of reasons. The social banter of acceptance, camaraderie, and caring are chief among those who have passed thru these doors. But still, the major focus for many of us, imo, is defined in GS's mission statement: Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees.

For thirty years (30)......wierwille taught Rev. B.G. Leonard's class as his own foundational class. Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve details how vpw was thrilled after sitting in Leonard's class in February 1953 and returned again to Calgary, Alberta in June/July 1953 with Dorthea and Don (and a few faithful) who later were *grads* of "wierwille's" (cough, cough) October class. So, essentially.....wierwille stayed committed to teaching this material for some 30 years (1983 or so). Then, with the removal of his one eye and cancer....wierwille withdrew and descended into the final stages of life and self.

For thirty years (30)......martindale, geer and rivenbark have parroted the pfal material. This week, May 20, 2015.....and what has been accomplished under wierwille-led leadership? How is that Prevailing Word.....er, PFAL......prevailing?? And, those NINE, count 'em......NINE

MANIFESTATIONS as taught in the pfal-series and **demonstrated by twi-leadership** (cough, cough) and reaching tens of thousands in these 3 prevailing decades?? Thirty years since wierwille's death [May 20, 1985 - May 20, 2015] and what is twi's LEGACY of note?

Thirty pieces of silver......and Judas betrayed the Lord.

Thirty years of seduction....and wierwille betrayed the Lord.

Thirty years of slithering...and lcm, geer, rosa-lie, etc. stay the course.

Wierwille chose to lord over God's heritage RATHER than to lead the faithful TO THE LORD in all his glory. Rather than having the spirit of God ablaze within, twi has suffocated the holy spirit of cloven-fire that came from heaven on the day of Pentecost. Yeah, yeah.....vpee gave it lip-service in pfal, but NEVER allowed its full reverence to resound through the ecclesia. He heard this material from Leonard, but could not teach or manifest its strength and power to the pure of heart. That's why those who went on Staff at headquarters or were around wierwille in his corps training.....were left with disillusionment and disappointment. Wierwille had sold-out for a pittance of man-glory adulation.

Those who've touted the "greatness of pfal" have never connected all the dots....to understand why twi has miserably failed. How many years have these followers sat in home fellowships and heard those "inspirational manifestations?" Thousands of times, for many. Yet, what about the other six manifestations? You know....earthquakes shaking the prison doors open, the blind man from birth able to see, angels in our midst, etc. Why has twi become so dead? Hint: [pfal] why was the dead sea so dead?

Twi has become an institutionalized following. Somehow, one is able to rationalize that obeying the leader above them is "doing the word." Somehow, the incremental indoctrination is able to seep into one's brain cells and shut down all critical thinking and cower one into twi-servitude. Somehow, twi jargon and private interpretation of scriptures is able to mangle "mark-and-avoid" true meaning and give it a jaded twist. Somehow, in man's fallen state it seems to be easier to succumb to a seductive state of man-servitude than to walk as Jesus did.

Thirty years ago......I remember the emotions that I experienced upon wierwille's death and, quite honestly, I wasn't all that disturbed. After all, wierwille had chain-smoked for decades and drank heavily. At age 68, it wasn't a shock or anything. He had lost an eye, was battling health issues and had become withdrawn from the teaching stage. And, having been corps and staff.....I'd seen the fiery-confrontational side of the man, not the sanitized fatherly persona. The scriptures spoke of leadership rising up to replace others, so I thought that someone else would arise to

take us to greater heights. My optimism was sorely misplaced.

And really, the word "betrayal" in reference to wierwille might even be misplaced. One has to break faith with, or stray from person or object to be categorized as such. And with wierwille, he would have to had a relationship with the lord to betray him. Wierwille's life was centered on self, not others. And, certainly not the Lord of glory.

Even back inresidence, I didn't believe his snow-on-the-gas-pumps story. Too contrived.

Sometimes, I feel like I've been out of twi since May 1985.

[waysider]

You...you mean the snow on the gas pumps story wasn't real????

Well, shut the front door. Next thing you'll be saying is that his doctorate was phony.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a DISGRACE to have been in this fellowship this evening!!

:lol:

[Rocky]

Nice to see you again, Skyrider. :)

I concur wholeheartedly.

You...you mean the snow on the gas pumps story wasn't real????

Well, shut the front door. Next thing you'll be saying is that his doctorate was phony.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's been a DISGRACE to have been in this fellowship this evening!!

[johniam]

quote: Those who've touted the "greatness of pfal" have never connected all the dots....to understand why twi has miserably failed. How many years have these followers sat in home fellowships and heard those "inspirational manifestations?" Thousands of times, for many. Yet, what about the other six manifestations? You know....earthquakes shaking the prison doors open, the blind man from birth able to see, angels in our midst, etc. Why has twi become so dead? Hint: [pfal] why was the dead sea so dead?

So who IS doing the other 6 manifestations? The catholic church? Fifty percent of them voted for a president who compels them to blaspheme (pay for abortions and other birth control). You got all this criticism, but no solutions.

You say you never believed in the snow on the gas pumps, but you, like everybody else, didn't come forward with this "enlightenment" until after VP was dead.

But hindsight is 20/200, right?

[Tzaia]

Have you any idea the ridicule one faced if one didn't present themselves as a "true believer"?

I knew back in 1980 that VPW was at the very least a lecherous old man. Not even my husband believed me.

[waysider]

So who IS doing the other 6 manifestations?

Not The Way. That much should be obvious.

. You got all this criticism, but no solutions.

Maybe criticism IS the solution.

You say you never believed in the snow on the gas pumps, but you, like everybody else, didn't come forward with this "enlightenment" until after VP was dead.

A lie is a lie is a lie, whether you see it right away or never at all.

But hindsight is 20/200, right?

Perhaps this is too pedantic but, 20/200 would be considered legally blind.

[outandabout]

The thing I've been realizing about TWI is that there is no going beyond the Advanced Class. That was considered the pinnacle of knowledge and spiritual growth. The Corps had classes also in residence but they still mirrored the basic doctrines of TWI. There is nothing new - the same doctrine over and over again. A formed WOW sister of mine that I recently got in touch with said she went to a TWI fellowship recently and it was "dead."

I've been reading lots of books by biblical scholars we never heard of in TWI and amazingly, they know a lot! People who have researched the Word for years of their lives that we can learn from. There is no end to what we can learn from God's Word from all the scholars that have researched it and written what they've learned. I'm really happy that now I can learn from who I want to learn from.

We were taught that only we had the Truth, and all others teachers and writers were to be avoided lest our minds be tainted with their "wrong doctrine".

[skyrider]

Why do I say "thirty years of seduction?"

Well, let me name the ways.....

1) Wierwille taught pfal-prosperity to the masses, but poverty/servitude to the corps.

2) Follow-the-chain-of-command wherein vpee was "the general in charge."

3) The corps indoctrination was a discipline-extraordinaire program.

4) Where was the walk in love, walk in light, walk circumspectly Ephesians doctrine?

5) Where were the gift ministries coming out of the corps training? Yeah, right :/

6) Even corps were reproved for "independent research" projects.

7) Why did wierwille demand the spotlight even unto death??

8) Those in research dept could NOT stray from pfal doctrine.

9) Isolation in the corps program facilitated the mog sexual predation.

10) There was no "true shepherds" leading twi......but hirelings.

11) Wierwille and his buddies lorded over us with heavy hand.

12) The Scriptures detail Simon-the-sorcerer "mog doctrine."

13) Why did vpee demand the mogship like Simon?

14) What vpee taught in pfal, he VIOLATED in his corps training.

15) In my 24-year involvement, I never saw wierwille do ONE THING via revelation.

So, wierwille stole BG Leonard's class......and ???????

He was hitchhiking thru life on another's ride.

[WordWolf]

Welcome to Greasespot Café and its vast array of venues. Many come here for a variety of reasons. The social banter of acceptance, camaraderie, and caring are chief among those who have passed thru these doors. But still, the major focus for many of us, imo, is defined in GS's mission statement: Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees.

For thirty years (30)......wierwille taught Rev. B.G. Leonard's class as his own foundational class. Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve details how vpw was thrilled after sitting in Leonard's class in February 1953 and returned again to Calgary, Alberta in June/July 1953 with Dorthea and Don (and a few faithful) who later were *grads* of "wierwille's" (cough, cough) October class. So, essentially.....wierwille stayed committed to teaching this material for some 30 years (1983 or so). Then, with the removal of his one eye and cancer....wierwille withdrew and descended into the final stages of life and self.

Yes, it was all built on the work of others who never heard of twi,

plus some showmanship/huckstering a la Harold Hill or PT Barnum courtesy of vpw,

and then the private agendas with control, adulation, luxuries, and sins.

For thirty years (30)......martindale, geer and rivenbark have parroted the pfal material. This week, May 20, 2015.....and what has been accomplished under wierwille-led leadership? How is that Prevailing Word.....er, PFAL......prevailing?? And, those NINE, count 'em......NINE

MANIFESTATIONS as taught in the pfal-series and **demonstrated by twi-leadership** (cough, cough) and reaching tens of thousands in these 3 prevailing decades?? Thirty years since wierwille's death [May 20, 1985 - May 20, 2015] and what is twi's LEGACY of note?

There's been a lot of TALK about miracles and so on.

There's never been the DEMONSTRATION about miracles.

vpw-and thus twi-has always been about BLUSTER and SHOWMANSHIP

and NOT about deliverance nor the flock.

Thirty pieces of silver......and Judas betrayed the Lord.

Thirty years of seduction....and wierwille betrayed the Lord.

Thirty years of slithering...and lcm, geer, rosa-lie, etc. stay the course.

Wierwille chose to lord over God's heritage RATHER than to lead the faithful TO THE LORD in all his glory. Rather than having the spirit of God ablaze within, twi has suffocated the holy spirit of cloven-fire that came from heaven on the day of Pentecost. Yeah, yeah.....vpee gave it lip-service in pfal, but NEVER allowed its full reverence to resound through the ecclesia. He heard this material from Leonard, but could not teach or manifest its strength and power to the pure of heart. That's why those who went on Staff at headquarters or were around wierwille in his corps training.....were left with disillusionment and disappointment. Wierwille had sold-out for a pittance of man-glory adulation.

Those who've touted the "greatness of pfal" have never connected all the dots....to understand why twi has miserably failed. How many years have these followers sat in home fellowships and heard those "inspirational manifestations?" Thousands of times, for many. Yet, what about the other six manifestations? You know....earthquakes shaking the prison doors open, the blind man from birth able to see, angels in our midst, etc. Why has twi become so dead? Hint: [pfal] why was the dead sea so dead?

It's like you summoned a reply to that-and one that demonstrated

the cluelessness you mentioned!

Other Christians talk about deliverance, about compassion, and so on.

twi's claim to fame has been claims about POWER. Always the CLAIMS

about power, and never the DEMONSTRATION of power. Oh, and lots of

criticizing of other Christians for not measuring up to twi standards,

supposing twi HAD standards, that was another smokescreen.

So, twi was quite verbose about other Christians being unable to

demonstrate God's Power. vpw harped on that a lot.

What he NEVER did was spend a block of time DEMONSTRATING

God's Power.

So, we went from vpw castigating other Christians for not demonstrating

God's Power, to vpw doing/not-doing exactly the same thing,

and then someone saying that it's unfair to complain since supposedly

other Christians don't demonstrate it either. It's the sizzle that

sells the steak- and twi's always been big on sizzle and absent on steak.

Cute little misdirections not only fail to hide it, they serve as a flag

that something important was said and someone wants it hidden. So, it

points to it like a blinking arrow!

Twi has become an institutionalized following. Somehow, one is able to rationalize that obeying the leader above them is "doing the word." Somehow, the incremental indoctrination is able to seep into one's brain cells and shut down all critical thinking and cower one into twi-servitude. Somehow, twi jargon and private interpretation of scriptures is able to mangle "mark-and-avoid" true meaning and give it a jaded twist. Somehow, in man's fallen state it seems to be easier to succumb to a seductive state of man-servitude than to walk as Jesus did.

Thirty years ago......I remember the emotions that I experienced upon wierwille's death and, quite honestly, I wasn't all that disturbed. After all, wierwille had chain-smoked for decades and drank heavily. At age 68, it wasn't a shock or anything. He had lost an eye, was battling health issues and had become withdrawn from the teaching stage. And, having been corps and staff.....I'd seen the fiery-confrontational side of the man, not the sanitized fatherly persona. The scriptures spoke of leadership rising up to replace others, so I thought that someone else would arise to

take us to greater heights. My optimism was sorely misplaced.

And really, the word "betrayal" in reference to wierwille might even be misplaced. One has to break faith with, or stray from person or object to be categorized as such. And with wierwille, he would have to had a relationship with the lord to betray him. Wierwille's life was centered on self, not others. And, certainly not the Lord of glory.

Even back inresidence, I didn't believe his snow-on-the-gas-pumps story. Too contrived.

Sometimes, I feel like I've been out of twi since May 1985.

I think it's quite comforting that twi itself is withering away as its population

just turns elderly and is unable to interest anyone new to appear. They'll all

eventually die of old age and the group will be over. Even the splinters seem

to be rather insular-those that attract the young attract mostly the kids of

the members, and not rooms of new faces that are still around 5 years later.

The splinters are withering more slowly, but they're each smaller to begin with.

[krys]

twi - - It's dying from the root "up".

There was a time when at least some of the people living or functioning at the root had at least some life in them, as there were many individuals involved in it. Most of those masses had no clue about the rottenness in the root. Eventually, however, the root was totally dead and the rest of the organization left. (A certain fig tree that I heard about was cursed and died the same way)

[GeorgeStGeorge]

Yes, it was all built on the work of others who never heard of twi,

plus some showmanship/huckstering a la Harold Hill or PT Barnum courtesy of vpw,

and then the private agendas with control, adulation, luxuries, and sins.

At least Harold Hill saw the evil of his ways and reformed. And while PT Barnum might have said, "There's a sucker born every minute," he never claimed to be anything more than a showman. I think the most GENEROUS description of Wierwille is that he started in the ministry sincerely and got seduced by the fame. The more cynical view is that he was "once a huckster, always a huckster."

George

[Tzaia]

It was started as a deeply flawed way of belief by a deeply flawed man, and rather than reform, it was passed to another, more deeply flawed man who had even more flawed beliefs. Then rather than reform, it was passed to an apathetic and deeply flawed woman.

It cut out all the decent wood and left the dead to rot.

[waysider]

Well, he did heal that guy in India from the back of a train, even though the guy said he didn't believe in Jesus. ;)

[skyrider]

I think the most GENEROUS description of Wierwille is that he started in the ministry sincerely and got seduced by the fame. The more cynical view is that he was "once a huckster, always a huckster."

I don't consider the "huckster" nametag on wierwille as the more cynical view.

From vpw's own account....and mrs. w's book, his character, manner of living, and his words when weighed in the balance of scriptural integrity and uprightness, wierwille CHOSE the "dark side." In his own words, he uttered disrespect for women, for church board authority, for biblical scholars, and missionary boards. He scoffed at denominational leadership and fostered an "us versus them" mentality against church Christianity. And, wierwille moved thru the night with sexual predation lusts.

Anyone who has spent any time connecting the dots on the wierwille pyramid know this stuff.

In so many ways, "huckster" is being generous.

[GeorgeStGeorge]

I don't consider the "huckster" nametag on wierwille as the more cynical view.

From vpw's own account....and mrs. w's book, his character, manner of living, and his words when weighed in the balance of scriptural integrity and uprightness, wierwille CHOSE the "dark side." In his own words, he uttered disrespect for women, for church board authority, for biblical scholars, and missionary boards. He scoffed at denominational leadership and fostered an "us versus them" mentality against church Christianity. And, wierwille moved thru the night with sexual predation lusts.

Anyone who has spent any time connecting the dots on the wierwille pyramid know this stuff.

In so many ways, "huckster" is being generous.

My meaning was that it was perhaps more cynical to assume he was ALWAYS a huckster, rather than someone who got seduced by power (admittedly, fairly early on). I'm no apologist for the man. I just don't know which description fits better.

George

[waysider]

My meaning was that it was perhaps more cynical to assume he was ALWAYS a huckster, rather than someone who got seduced by power (admittedly, fairly early on). I'm no apologist for the man. I just don't know which description fits better.

George

We could go 'round and 'round forever and never really know. The only one who could have answered that is not longer able to respond. However, we know from various writings that he had almost given up on ministry work until he was inspired by the power and control such a career choice could offer. We also know that "Uncle" Harry claimed that VP would supposedly sneak away from his chores, as a boy, to practice preaching, delivering sermons to the trees in the woods. I can't tell you if he ever did this or not but I can tell you that a very similar story appears in the writings of Rev. Billy Graham of how he did this, as a ministerial student, to overcome his shyness. And then there's the account VP gave of healing a man in India, in the 1950's, that sounds suspiciously like the record of such an incident in Mark chapter 3. To me, at least, it seems he chose a crooked path from the very beginning of the journey.

Edited May 20, 2015 by waysider

[Tzaia]

As if, waysider. The guy was, at the very least, a narcissist. Probably a sociopath. Neither are inclined toward self examination.

[skyrider]

The guy was, at the very least, a narcissist. Probably a sociopath. Neither are inclined toward self examination.

Yeah, wierwille was a narcissist, probably a sociopath. I couldn't agree more.

Nothing UNMASKS THE WIERWILLE-MOGSHIP like the corps program. It was his baby, making it into the image of wierwille. Seemingly, this narcissist conceived that having *little-wierwille-bots* would be the greatest thing going in wayworld. Even when a corps man was killed while hitchhiking to LEAD, it didn't matter. The guy's believing just wasn't there, right? The hitchhiking continued. Later, another hitchhiking incident where a girl is repeatedly raped by a trucker.....the program continued.

Where was the self examination? Where was the empathy? Where was the revelation to adjust or alter? No where to be seen, because all the bad things that happened were laid at the doorstep of "the law of believing." It was their fault, not wierwille's. Oh, how wonderful it must be to stand at the podium and pontificate......and NOT go out into the highways and byways of life and all its hazards.

Greasespot Café is here to tell the OTHER SIDE of wierwille and twi. While some here never met the man, I am not among them. My fiancé and I were invited to dinner at the wierwille home with vp and mrs. We had dinner conversation. During inresidence, I had a handful of encounters with him. I was assigned to escort Mrs. W during major events in Dallas. Twice, I was Mrs. Owens escort at the hq holiday party and sat at the head table. So, for those who think that my postings are erroneous.....all I can say is that I've been there.

Today's corps program is abysmal.....and the dots connect back to its founder

Selling out to twi is the modern equivalent to "thirty pieces of silver."

When Judas turned from the Lord......it was night [John 13:30]

[Broken Arrow]

quote:

So who IS doing the other 6 manifestations? The catholic church? Fifty percent of them voted for a president who compels them to blaspheme (pay for abortions and other birth control). You got all this criticism, but no solutions.

You say you never believed in the snow on the gas pumps, but you, like everybody else, didn't come forward with this "enlightenment" until after VP was dead.

But hindsight is 20/200, right?

Actually Johniam, lots of people do the other 6 manifestations all over the place, even Catholics. You need to look around. A lot of people associated with TWI refuse to accept that anyone else can have true, Godly spirituality unless it comes wrapped in a TWI-approved container. I don't know if that's you.

As far as the Roman Catholics, who needs the other 6 manifestations when you have your own aircraft carrier?

[WordWolf]

"Charismatic Christians" and Pentecostals would be the other Christians supposedly

rounding out the 9.

As for Roman Catholics, they have a Pope, not a President. They didn't elect

their Pope, the College of Cardinals elected him (IMHO, they did a great job there.)

If he meant some US-specific thing, he got his numbers seriously wrong because the

US doesn't have 1/2 the RCC membership worldwide. Less than 50% are in the Western

Hemisphere, and Brazil has more than 1/2 of those.

[MRAP]

Thankyou skyrider for the mission statement of GSC: "Our mission is to provide information that tells the other side of the story about The Way International and its trustees". I will ask, are there other sides available, a discussion that encompasses many opinions which I understand are welcome. I am thankfull that I ran into twi and just as thankfull that I got outa twi before I was further brain washed - I learned alot.

Growing up in the Lutheran church, one Sunday was dedicated each year to bash on the Catholic church, I suppose this thread meets that criteria but on the 30th year after VPW's death? Isn't it time to let the hate of twi just rest, maybe that would be healing in itself.

I realize the intent/mission of GSC: bash twi. In monitoring, this forum has drawn the most passion I have seen for some time on a forum thread, the renewal of the bashing, don't get me wrong, it's well deserved but after this length of time, I simply ask, is it maybe time to bury the hatchet and move onto a new course - a new mission.

AT THIS TIME I WOULD ASK THAT A MODERATOR OR CONTROLLER MOVE THIS ONTO A NEW FORUM THREAD - CALL IT WHATEVER (you can take that a couple of ways) - SOMEONE OUT THERE KNOWS HOW TO DO THAT (much appreciated).

There is so much knowledge, Biblical and other by the long standing folks here, what if that knowledge and energy where put to more efficient use, now that would be a sin to loose it. I understand the concept of the Doctrinal Forum but it does not get the hits like this forum has gotten. It's realized, that is not in the realm of the current mission statement but maybe it should be so that a wealth of knowledge does not get wasted.

NO, I am not here to try and highjack anything but in all honesty, it is for mine, and hopefully others, enlightenment. Sometimes I think you folks are so geared towards the dark side of it all that you forget how good you are in speaking forth Biblical principles (in true application). Someone wrote earlier on this thread: "I just want to have a life", ditto to that.

Now, maybe I just missed the boat and you have been doing this all the time, actually, you have but you have missed the boat. You see, from an outsider view, you have made yourselves untouchable - yes, a clique (over used term). You long standing GSC posters have become quite "tight" and others feel as outsiders. You know, that's to be expected if you have been posting with one another on the same site for umpteen years.

I really don't care to post, I just want to read - and yes, that's greedy but others will read as well.

A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE - how's that for crappy humor?

[Rocky]

As if, waysider. The guy was, at the very least, a narcissist. Probably a sociopath. Neither are inclined toward self examination.

Probably?

[Rocky]

I realize the intent/mission of GSC: bash twi. In monitoring, this forum has drawn the most passion I have seen for some time on a forum thread, the renewal of the bashing, don't get me wrong, it's well deserved but after this length of time, I simply ask, is it maybe time to bury the hatchet and move onto a new course - a new mission.

There is so much knowledge, Biblical and other by the long standing folks here, what if that knowledge and energy where put to more efficient use...

NO, I am not here to try and highjack anything but in all honesty, it is for mine, and hopefully others, enlightenment.

A MIND IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE - how's that for crappy humor?

Here's the rub, MRAP. YOU have your perspective and you're welcome to it. BUT... who the h e l l are you to say whether anyone else's energy and knowledge is misspent? Isn't that sort of overly arrogant of you?

That and that you believe your insight will provide enlightenment for anyone else. Okay, I think maybe my insight MIGHT enlighten others. But if I think my insight is NECESSARILY the right insight for anyone else, wouldn't that be just narcissistic?

I put my thoughts out there for others to read. If THEY decide what I have offered is useful to them, that's wonderful. I'm confident, however, that there are plenty of people who read what I write and think I'm off my rocker.

And that's just fine with me.

One of the primary subculture problems with twi was that others, primarily in the "chain of command" thought and acted as if whatever they decided (because it must have been revelation from God) I should do, they had a right to demand I do.

That's just f***ed up.

And that you expressed these concepts (multiple times), judging the words and actions of other posters here at GSC as somehow deficient, improper or otherwise not as efficient as they should have been in their lives, might (a word to the wise, etc.) help you to have the light come on in your mind as to why people respond(ed) to you they way they have and they do.

Okay, so you were a lifer in the military. Good for you. I served one enlistment, so I got a taste of military life. There is NO chain of command at GSC. There is no chain of command in life, unless you specifically choose (or are unlucky enough to have found yourself unwillingly in) an organization so structured.

Put plainly, you have no right and no standing to pass judgment on anyone here.

[Rocky]

It's not just something you get over... -- Leah Remini

On the subject of her leaving the church of scientology... two years ago now.

I bet there are plenty of former wayfers who understand what she means.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Rocky

[waysider]

It's not just something you get over... -- Leah Remini

On the subject of her leaving the church of scientology... two years ago now.

I bet there are plenty of former wayfers who understand what she means.

Right on he money, even down to the part about her critics bashing her.