so then, if you do not know what your neighbors believe..
does it make any difference what your neighbors believe, is it any business of yours what your neighbors believe, to the extent that your neighbor wants to tell you what they believe.
What about Numerology. Three versus One.
Well, plus a few other significant numbers..
do you still feel uncomfortably different than others, and the rest of Gods Creation..
its just a question.
No, it doesn't matter nor is it any of my business what my neighbors believe. I've lived here for 15 years. So has my one next door neighbor. We've talked to him about spiritual things. We even told him we were in a "cult". Not a problem, with him or us. The other next door neighbor has lived here only 2 years. Nice folks, but we've not yet talked to them about God or anything.
Do I still feel uncomfortably different than others? Yes. I mean...the devil is God's creation isn't he? We are not of this world. I felt more uncomfortably different than others before I got into twi than since. At least now I have friends who are also different.
One thing that keeps coming back to me is...that people have lives, want to have lives. Most people I know who are still into twi type fellowships want to also have lives...college, jobs, careers, bowling leagues, whatever! Back in the day in twi we had to put that stuff on hold to move the word the urgency of the times. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Spiritually, we definitely made a huge dent. Some here just don't believe that, but we all knew what was going on. Nobody stuck a gun to our heads to make us do that. We believed in what we were doing and we participated, each person according to their desire and ability. But it's nice to be able to have a life in the world, though being not of this world.
MWRAP...sorry but to me you come across as someone who joined ( very recently that is ) to seemingly appear genuine in concern, interest and need regarding ex-twi peops and to promote a life ( Christian or not ) outside of twi ? Yet I can't help wondering if you were just biding your time ( you could have waited a little longer :o/> )to convey your true 'mission'...to vilify the peops that post here ?? I'm just saying what I think and maybe some others. I'm not a forum mod, so I don't mind saying this...and hey, you and anyone else feel free to correct me if my hunch is wrong :)/> I've had my run-ins with Raf, WordWolf etc..but I try not to take it personally and just move on ( posting that is :)/>
If that's the reason, he didn't bide THAT much time.
He began posting March 11, 2015, and by March 13, 2015, he was already
passing judgement on everyone because he couldn't get an animated discussion
on a pet topic of his, some Bible version made up by some ex-twi'er.
Me, I've had pet threads where NOBODY replied, and I took that in stride.
But for him, it was sufficient to pass judgement, Not caring about THAT
version meant nobody cared about the Bible at all. We all are just here
to vent.
That's the link back to it, I don't feel the need to paste the reply here.
Naturally, a FEW of us have suggested him starting new threads on OTHER things that
interest him, something more general than someone's vanity project,
but his response is that nobody cares, so he won't start them.
How CONVENIENT. If the posts aren't in the subjects he wants, in the STYLE
he wants (he complained about verbose posts), and in the POSITION he wants
(have to agree with him), they're awful and horrible.
I've lost track of how many people have shown up specifically to diagnose
us, and demand we ban them when nobody played along.
Any idea how many since you've been posting?
I'm sometimes surprised at how my point of view on most things has changed through the years and events of my life. I'm sure you will too, MRAP and already probably have in various ways.
This is not meant to put you down, but, I don't think you or any "outsider" can understand us and what we are about by reading the words here. The things we wrote about took place over many months at least if not years. Additionally all kinds of strong emotions accompanied these events. You know, the words we've left here, the stories we've told.......all of this (or nearly all of it) was left quite some time ago. You can tell that just by looking at the dates! Moreover, nearly all of us shared the same feelings of fear, frustration, anger, rage, or whatever else that took place at that time.
We all understand that in each other. We didn't have the same experience and, therefore, didn't have identical emotional issues, but we share enough to understand and identify with each other to the degree that we do. It's one of those things where - to borrow a phrase - "you had to be there".
I hope you've gotten some of the answers you came looking for. If not, I encourage you to ask them again even if you have to rephrase them. But please start a new thread. We can't see the questions if they are buried here, and others who come looking won't find them either.
True.
This thread's about something else, not whatever's on MRAP's mind.
However, a new thread about whatever's on MRAP's mind is fine,
so long as it's in the correct forum.
Oh, BTW, Allan,
try to be a little understanding for those who have almost no experience
online. They're not used to how discussions here have a lot of disagreements
on them, and iron sharpening iron (virtually), and so on.
as to OP, I have returned to Trinitarian Christianity since 1980. If TWI, JW, UU, etc, reject the Trinity but are polite to me and don't start arguing and screaming at me, then great. If not, I ignore their infantile behavior.
For that matter.. does it bother you that your neighbour believes that God is a She..
or does it bother you that your neighbor believes that God is light..
or that god is an alien conspiracy..
the list could go on for pages.
maybe god is part of me, or maybe I am part of God..
maybe I'm too ignorant, too unqualified to define God, by my own beliefs or through any collective writings..
but why would this bother anybody..
I'd rather they didn't believe in faerie tales, period, but I know that's asking WAY TO MUCH. It's hard enough knowing many people don't think human activity has effected the climate in a very harmful way.
I'd rather they didn't believe in faerie tales, period, but I know that's asking WAY TO MUCH.
Well that was a nice childish answer. Which is what I've come to expect from online atheists. Since the global warming stuff is political and we aren't allowed to discuss it here, I won't address that comment.
Well that was a nice childish answer. Which is what I've come to expect from online atheists. Since the global warming stuff is political and we aren't allowed to discuss it here, I won't address that comment.
Bluzeman, that doesn't have to be political. Various prominent individuals have tried to make it political, but it's really a scientific one. If somebody tries to take it down the political road, the Mods will cut them off at the pass. It should be a separate thread in the Open Forum, though.
I agree, but online it seems like it always devolves into a political fight. Note I didn't say discussion, but fight. People just can't be civil online anymore.
I know I am late to the discussion, but hope to answer the original question.
None of those things listed bother me.
What bothers me is that I need to fellowship but cannot do so in a mainstream Christian church.
It does not bother me that most are trinitarians. What bothers me is that I am sitting through services in a Church where I do not believe in their doctrine.
It bothers me that I feel hypocritical because I am there to fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ but cannot. I won't be able to be "member of the Church" because I won't confirm I hold their core beliefs, one of which is the trinity.
It bothers me that I need to keep searching for fellowship.
As for what others do, if I let all that bother me, I would never get any sleep.
What bothers me is what I do or do not.
"So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? hanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
Well how's this for irony, Tom: I have attended a mainstream church since 2001. I have never become a member for the same reasons you state, although I've never told anyone exactly why. For the first 5 years, the trinity was never mentioned. Then we left the denomination and the new denomination is REALLY trinitarian. Since I had been a Jesus is functionally god person for a number of years, the trinity didn't bother me that much - anymore. Now I'm struggling with believing any of it. However, since I'm a huge volunteer and we are well known even in our large congregation, here I am going almost every week.
What happened is that I no longer care about doctrine. That started in 2002. I became very aware of how doctrine was basically a matter of opinion and very divisive when it comes to relationships. Since for me church is about relationships, I just don't let doctrine be a dealbreaker for me. I don't need to discuss it. I don't need to be in agreement to have a relationship.
Well how's this for irony, Tom: I have attended a mainstream church since 2001. I have never become a member for the same reasons you state, although I've never told anyone exactly why. For the first 5 years, the trinity was never mentioned. Then we left the denomination and the new denomination is REALLY trinitarian. Since I had been a Jesus is functionally god person for a number of years, the trinity didn't bother me that much - anymore. Now I'm struggling with believing any of it. However, since I'm a huge volunteer and we are well known even in our large congregation, here I am going almost every week.
What happened is that I no longer care about doctrine. That started in 2002. I became very aware of how doctrine was basically a matter of opinion and very divisive when it comes to relationships. Since for me church is about relationships, I just don't let doctrine be a dealbreaker for me. I don't need to discuss it. I don't need to be in agreement to have a relationship.
I found it to be very liberating. Not. to. care.
That's really what churches are about, for most people anyway, IMO.
In the mid-1990s, I attended a community church for a couple of years. It was okay. They did believe in the trinity but I ignored that aspect.
Eventually, I came to realize I didn't really need their fellowship either. Oh, we ALL need some kind of fellowship. A sense of belonging, with people who have a common purpose.
I found it elsewhere. And then I realized moral people exist outside of churches and Christianity.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Tzaia. It's tremendously liberating to just not care what others think about religious issues.
Isn't it liberating to not take responsibility to fixing everyone's belief system?
I got to church as well, but not really for the fellowship or community, although I do get that out of the experience.
I go in order to feel small and know that there is so much in the universe I cannot ever hope to comprhend. I go to experience the rituals that go back to the days of paganism so that I can feel connected to my ancestry.
I also love Jesus a lot. His teachings are amazing.
Do I believe he is God? In some ways, yes. In others, no. But it isn't all that important to me.
To Bluzeman, I agree, climate change ( remember when it was called global warming) ? ( til there was a flurry of wintry conditions) IS political, hijacked by scientists and others and speaking of irony....will become religious...I 'believe' the united nations agenda 21 is on track as is their gaia religion...pretty soon it won't matter what any of us believe !! sweet sleeps peops
could it possibly be true ?! "tell me what you think of Jesus and I'll tell you how far you'll go spiritually"
Yes, and you can thank the hypocrite Al Gore for a lot of it. But let's don't hijack this thread.
On topic: Why should I care what any of my neighbors believe? As long as they aren't harming anyone it really doesn't matter to me. Religious belief's are a personal matter and I won't condemn someone for believing differently from me.
Now the idiots who play their cRap music at 140 decibels, that's a different story.
Well how's this for irony, Tom: I have attended a mainstream church since 2001. I have never become a member for the same reasons you state, although I've never told anyone exactly why. For the first 5 years, the trinity was never mentioned. Then we left the denomination and the new denomination is REALLY trinitarian. Since I had been a Jesus is functionally god person for a number of years, the trinity didn't bother me that much - anymore. Now I'm struggling with believing any of it. However, since I'm a huge volunteer and we are well known even in our large congregation, here I am going almost every week.
What happened is that I no longer care about doctrine. That started in 2002. I became very aware of how doctrine was basically a matter of opinion and very divisive when it comes to relationships. Since for me church is about relationships, I just don't let doctrine be a dealbreaker for me. I don't need to discuss it. I don't need to be in agreement to have a relationship.
I found it to be very liberating. Not. to. care.
Hi Tzaia,
I am basically in the situation you described. I am now attending a church and I attended a new members dinner to hear what the church believed, what they were doing in terms of volunteering and outreach. But they require you take a series of classes to become a member and sign that you agree to their basic doctrines, one of which is the trinity. So I have not pursued membership, although I have been encouraged toward that end. As well as joining in small study groups.
The hardest part is when I sit listening to a sermon where the lead pastor inserts some commentary as truth into his sermon when it supports his doctrine of the trinity. In other words, his teaching was fine and was from Scripture up and until he went and inserted man's opinion.
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johniam
No, it doesn't matter nor is it any of my business what my neighbors believe. I've lived here for 15 years. So has my one next door neighbor. We've talked to him about spiritual things. We even told him we were in a "cult". Not a problem, with him or us. The other next door neighbor has lived here only 2 years. Nice folks, but we've not yet talked to them about God or anything.
Do I still feel uncomfortably different than others? Yes. I mean...the devil is God's creation isn't he? We are not of this world. I felt more uncomfortably different than others before I got into twi than since. At least now I have friends who are also different.
One thing that keeps coming back to me is...that people have lives, want to have lives. Most people I know who are still into twi type fellowships want to also have lives...college, jobs, careers, bowling leagues, whatever! Back in the day in twi we had to put that stuff on hold to move the word the urgency of the times. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Spiritually, we definitely made a huge dent. Some here just don't believe that, but we all knew what was going on. Nobody stuck a gun to our heads to make us do that. We believed in what we were doing and we participated, each person according to their desire and ability. But it's nice to be able to have a life in the world, though being not of this world.
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WordWolf
If that's the reason, he didn't bide THAT much time.
He began posting March 11, 2015, and by March 13, 2015, he was already
passing judgement on everyone because he couldn't get an animated discussion
on a pet topic of his, some Bible version made up by some ex-twi'er.
Me, I've had pet threads where NOBODY replied, and I took that in stride.
But for him, it was sufficient to pass judgement, Not caring about THAT
version meant nobody cared about the Bible at all. We all are just here
to vent.
That's the link back to it, I don't feel the need to paste the reply here.
Naturally, a FEW of us have suggested him starting new threads on OTHER things that
interest him, something more general than someone's vanity project,
but his response is that nobody cares, so he won't start them.
How CONVENIENT. If the posts aren't in the subjects he wants, in the STYLE
he wants (he complained about verbose posts), and in the POSITION he wants
(have to agree with him), they're awful and horrible.
I've lost track of how many people have shown up specifically to diagnose
us, and demand we ban them when nobody played along.
Any idea how many since you've been posting?
True.
This thread's about something else, not whatever's on MRAP's mind.
However, a new thread about whatever's on MRAP's mind is fine,
so long as it's in the correct forum.
Oh, BTW, Allan,
try to be a little understanding for those who have almost no experience
online. They're not used to how discussions here have a lot of disagreements
on them, and iron sharpening iron (virtually), and so on.
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Tzaia
And hijacks every frakin' thread when it's not all about him.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
as to OP, I have returned to Trinitarian Christianity since 1980. If TWI, JW, UU, etc, reject the Trinity but are polite to me and don't start arguing and screaming at me, then great. If not, I ignore their infantile behavior.
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Seth R.
I'd rather they didn't believe in faerie tales, period, but I know that's asking WAY TO MUCH. It's hard enough knowing many people don't think human activity has effected the climate in a very harmful way.
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Bluzeman
Well that was a nice childish answer. Which is what I've come to expect from online atheists. Since the global warming stuff is political and we aren't allowed to discuss it here, I won't address that comment.
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krys
Bluzeman, that doesn't have to be political. Various prominent individuals have tried to make it political, but it's really a scientific one. If somebody tries to take it down the political road, the Mods will cut them off at the pass. It should be a separate thread in the Open Forum, though.
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Bluzeman
I agree, but online it seems like it always devolves into a political fight. Note I didn't say discussion, but fight. People just can't be civil online anymore.
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Tom Geiger
I know I am late to the discussion, but hope to answer the original question.
None of those things listed bother me.
What bothers me is that I need to fellowship but cannot do so in a mainstream Christian church.
It does not bother me that most are trinitarians. What bothers me is that I am sitting through services in a Church where I do not believe in their doctrine.
It bothers me that I feel hypocritical because I am there to fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ but cannot. I won't be able to be "member of the Church" because I won't confirm I hold their core beliefs, one of which is the trinity.
It bothers me that I need to keep searching for fellowship.
As for what others do, if I let all that bother me, I would never get any sleep.
What bothers me is what I do or do not.
"So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? hanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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Tzaia
Well how's this for irony, Tom: I have attended a mainstream church since 2001. I have never become a member for the same reasons you state, although I've never told anyone exactly why. For the first 5 years, the trinity was never mentioned. Then we left the denomination and the new denomination is REALLY trinitarian. Since I had been a Jesus is functionally god person for a number of years, the trinity didn't bother me that much - anymore. Now I'm struggling with believing any of it. However, since I'm a huge volunteer and we are well known even in our large congregation, here I am going almost every week.
What happened is that I no longer care about doctrine. That started in 2002. I became very aware of how doctrine was basically a matter of opinion and very divisive when it comes to relationships. Since for me church is about relationships, I just don't let doctrine be a dealbreaker for me. I don't need to discuss it. I don't need to be in agreement to have a relationship.
I found it to be very liberating. Not. to. care.
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Rocky
That's really what churches are about, for most people anyway, IMO.
In the mid-1990s, I attended a community church for a couple of years. It was okay. They did believe in the trinity but I ignored that aspect.
Eventually, I came to realize I didn't really need their fellowship either. Oh, we ALL need some kind of fellowship. A sense of belonging, with people who have a common purpose.
I found it elsewhere. And then I realized moral people exist outside of churches and Christianity.
And I agree wholeheartedly with Tzaia. It's tremendously liberating to just not care what others think about religious issues.
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JavaJane
Isn't it liberating to not take responsibility to fixing everyone's belief system?
I got to church as well, but not really for the fellowship or community, although I do get that out of the experience.
I go in order to feel small and know that there is so much in the universe I cannot ever hope to comprhend. I go to experience the rituals that go back to the days of paganism so that I can feel connected to my ancestry.
I also love Jesus a lot. His teachings are amazing.
Do I believe he is God? In some ways, yes. In others, no. But it isn't all that important to me.
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Allan
To Bluzeman, I agree, climate change ( remember when it was called global warming) ? ( til there was a flurry of wintry conditions) IS political, hijacked by scientists and others and speaking of irony....will become religious...I 'believe' the united nations agenda 21 is on track as is their gaia religion...pretty soon it won't matter what any of us believe !! sweet sleeps peops
could it possibly be true ?! "tell me what you think of Jesus and I'll tell you how far you'll go spiritually"
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Bluzeman
Yes, and you can thank the hypocrite Al Gore for a lot of it. But let's don't hijack this thread.
On topic: Why should I care what any of my neighbors believe? As long as they aren't harming anyone it really doesn't matter to me. Religious belief's are a personal matter and I won't condemn someone for believing differently from me.
Now the idiots who play their cRap music at 140 decibels, that's a different story.
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Tom Geiger
Hi Tzaia,
I am basically in the situation you described. I am now attending a church and I attended a new members dinner to hear what the church believed, what they were doing in terms of volunteering and outreach. But they require you take a series of classes to become a member and sign that you agree to their basic doctrines, one of which is the trinity. So I have not pursued membership, although I have been encouraged toward that end. As well as joining in small study groups.
The hardest part is when I sit listening to a sermon where the lead pastor inserts some commentary as truth into his sermon when it supports his doctrine of the trinity. In other words, his teaching was fine and was from Scripture up and until he went and inserted man's opinion.
I guess I will see how things move forward.
Thanks for your reply.
Tom
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