I'm involved in various Christian activities locally. The trinity is something I simply never raise or discuss with any of them.
Interestingly, my Mum has recently decided for various reasons to become an Adherent (=decided to join/become a member) in the Salvation Army. The joining form requires applicants to affirm their belief in the trinity. She declined to sign this and asked the membership sec to come and see her to discuss, and raise with his/her superiors. In between times, however, the form has changed and now requires wannabes to simply affirm they hold to SA beliefs, with none spelled out specifically. She doesn't mind signing this.
I applied for a job recently (which I didn't get) with a Christian organisation. That application required a declaration that I agreed with their beliefs, first of which was the existence of the trinity. I pondered this and did sign the declaration, because I figured that the work done would exceed the lie (that they believe!) but I had and still have qualms about that.
I've always thought that if the trinity doctrine was important to God and the Lord Jesus, they would have done something about this lie before, in the hundreds of years since it was first promulgated. As they haven't I conclude it can't be that worrying to them and there are bigger issues that they concern themselves with.
I don't mind discussing different beliefs as long as everyone agrees that's what we're doing. And sometimes that discussion can be quite challenging (and emotional). The key is, you have to want to participate in such a discussion. Otherwise, it's just arguing and it benefits no one.
It doesn't bother me that anyone believes in the Trinity. It doesn't bother me that anyone believes in God. I hope it doesn't bother anyone that I believe in neither.
However, your reasons for believing, and my reasons for not believing, are (in and of themselves) interesting topics of conversation for some people. I'm game to discuss them with anyone, in the proper setting (which, in the context of this site, is in doctrinal, which I subdivided even further so that anyone not desiring to discuss doubts can avoid such conversations easily).
I look at it this way: you can enjoy drinking alcohol without advocating drunkenness. A sip of wine at home? Cool. Hanging out at a bar with friends? Cool. Going to that same bar at 1:30 a.m.? Look, you're going to encounter drunkenness there. If you want to avoid it, don't go there.
It's the same with difficult and challenging conversations. If you want to avoid them, don't go where they're taking place. It's not hard.
Raf, good question/sub-forum. I resonate with most of what has already been posted. I do cringe when family members (mostly Luterans) touch on the subject but years on the witness circuit have taught me not to engage in a discussion that is not going to go anywhere other than rub the cat's fur the wrong way; if I thought that believing in the triune would keep a person outa heaven, then I would be more of an antagonist on the subject but I have not seen that is the case, I am a Romans 10: 9-10 sorta guy - someone correct me if I am wrong on that (direct me to the correct doctrinal sub-forum).
I understand your concern about keeping things in the correct forums but gee Raf, so much of this crosses lines and tangents are quickly developed: if we see things going that way then someone should just speak up and take it to the doctrinal forum, i.e, take it outside you two.
Really Raf, you are in a unique position since you don't have an emotional bond to a set of Biblical beliefs but have strong knowledge of the Bible - that's what's looked for in an arbitrator or consultant at the least. I appreciate your abilities to fall in on the topics knowing that you are not trying to push a belief.
My neighbors on one side are part of a fundamentalist christian cult who are praying to bring about the end of the world, and while I am not too cool on seeing Zuul any time soon, I am not going to pick a fight about their beliefs. I am sure they think we are all going to hell because of the statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the statue of St Francis of Assissi in the front flower garden. Arguments with religious fanatics are useless, and I no longer find them entertaining, but more of a waste of time and energy.
One great thing about being Catholic - I can now answer the door when people come by witnessing and say "Sorry, I'm Catholic" and close the door, just like so many Catholics did to me while I was a WOW Ambassador and a Way Disciple.
One great thing about being Catholic - I can now answer the door when people come by witnessing and say "Sorry, I'm Catholic" and close the door, just like so many Catholics did to me while I was a WOW Ambassador and a Way Disciple.
quote: Does it BOTHER you that your neighbor beilieves in a Trinity?
I don't know what my neighbors believe. It sure seemed to bother a lot of people that us wayfers did NOT believe in a trinity. Never met anybody more glassy eyed than those people who hated on us back then.
so then, if you do not know what your neighbors believe..
does it make any difference what your neighbors believe, is it any business of yours what your neighbors believe, to the extent that your neighbor wants to tell you what they believe.
What about Numerology. Three versus One.
Well, plus a few other significant numbers..
do you still feel uncomfortably different than others, and the rest of Gods Creation..
If it bothered Jesus Christ that people believe in the Trinity, he would have put an end to it a long time ago. After all, he is the head of the body... oh wait, I must be thinking of the man of God of the world for this our day and time... Has anybody seen him since he croaked?
I pretty much got the jist on this site: not too many folks take the word seriously BUT there are a few that do. What follows is not directed to those who are not "nay sayers".
So really you majority of GSC posters, you know who you are and hopefull know yourselves: can you possibley address issues in a non condesending manor, hate to say it, but I think not. This site has imploded, nothing new, most hits are on "tell me the quote of that movie or song". Really good folks, is that all you are good for. When I came onto this site and laid myself out there you jumped on me like raw meat - think about it. Anyone who monitors this site sees your actions - no wonder I was the last person to join back in March of the year and no one since. Really, how many new folk have entertained themselves on this site in recent years? You regulars for the last 15 years, you have made yourselves inaccessible, alot because you have made yourselves into a clique. You see, if you have been around for years, you are quite personable to each other - not a way to entreate newby's (they see it). Things I have been ostrized for as disrespectfull (making short of names) I have observed by veteran GSC members. There should be no such thing as earning your wings.
I honestly have learned alot on this site - had to sift through alot of the nasty bull to get to it (some of you just talk/write way too much before you ever get to the point and at times, get so consumed in your own discertation that you never get there). Yet, I am more than blessed to have found GSC, what you all take as common knowledge (given you backgrounds that I respect) I just suck it up - good stuff.
So, like I told Raf a while back, you can all discommunicate me - or whatever the secular religious word is for "throw out". Oh, discommunicate is actualy a very acurate word, because anytime MRAP appears on a Forum or sub formum, there is no response from the seniors. Now if it's on the doctrinal forum, then there are some learned responses but not from the seniors (you old folks) unless it is of a smacking nature.
It's been fun also, watching how older Christian women and men become vicious. I thought that was only indicative of old Catholic men and women - well, you proved me wrong.
Now I am not perfect but what I have said, those are just observations from an old and learned man. You folk need to become self aware if you want new folk to learn from your vast knowledge and experience: become more accessable and drop the clique syndrome that is overly obvious. Now, if you don't care, then screw it. I KNOW, this is a recovery site for injured Way Folk; when's the last time this site accomplished that edict in the GSC mission statement?
Yes, as a true brother, I have been honest, I have praised and pointed out problems and accepted my own frailty in making such statements. You are all a very special people, you are my brothers and sisters but you are more than that to me because of a common pain and enlightenment. So please, take this from an old man with a true heart who cares for you, your mission and appreciation for the friendship that you share with one an other - that is the true phileo.
I pretty much got the jist on this site: not too many folks take the word seriously BUT there are a few that do. What follows is not directed to those who are not "nay sayers".
So really you majority of GSC posters, you know who you are and hopefull know yourselves: can you possibley address issues in a non condesending manor, hate to say it, but I think not. This site has imploded, nothing new, most hits are on "tell me the quote of that movie or song". Really good folks, is that all you are good for. When I came onto this site and laid myself out there you jumped on me like raw meat - think about it. Anyone who monitors this site sees your actions - no wonder I was the last person to join back in March of the year and no one since. Really, how many new folk have entertained themselves on this site in recent years? You regulars for the last 15 years, you have made yourselves inaccessible, alot because you have made yourselves into a clique. You see, if you have been around for years, you are quite personable to each other - not a way to entreate newby's (they see it). Things I have been ostrized for as disrespectfull (making short of names) I have observed by veteran GSC members. There should be no such thing as earning your wings.
I honestly have learned alot on this site - had to sift through alot of the nasty bull to get to it (some of you just talk/write way too much before you ever get to the point and at times, get so consumed in your own discertation that you never get there). Yet, I am more than blessed to have found GSC, what you all take as common knowledge (given you backgrounds that I respect) I just suck it up - good stuff.
So, like I told Raf a while back, you can all discommunicate me - or whatever the secular religious word is for "throw out". Oh, discommunicate is actualy a very acurate word, because anytime MRAP appears on a Forum or sub formum, there is no response from the seniors. Now if it's on the doctrinal forum, then there are some learned responses but not from the seniors (you old folks) unless it is of a smacking nature.
It's been fun also, watching how older Christian women and men become vicious. I thought that was only indicative of old Catholic men and women - well, you proved me wrong.
Now I am not perfect but what I have said, those are just observations from an old and learned man. You folk need to become self aware if you want new folk to learn from your vast knowledge and experience: become more accessable and drop the clique syndrome that is overly obvious. Now, if you don't care, then screw it. I KNOW, this is a recovery site for injured Way Folk; when's the last time this site accomplished that edict in the GSC mission statement?
Yes, as a true brother, I have been honest, I have praised and pointed out problems and accepted my own frailty in making such statements. You are all a very special people, you are my brothers and sisters but you are more than that to me because of a common pain and enlightenment. So please, take this from an old man with a true heart who cares for you, your mission and appreciation for the friendship that you share with one an other - that is the true phileo.
Of course, that's not necessarily the thread topic, but hey, why not set forth (probably a bit less awkward if you had started a new thread dedicated to setting forth your observations) what you have seen and how you put it all together in your perception?
Your perception/observation/opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. I don't agree with it or see it the same way, but that's okay.
The only concern I'd have with what you said above is to be careful in making heavy handed judgment of people. Your perspective is not the only valid way to look at it all.
As to the GSC mission, I wouldn't worry so much about it. The information on peoples' experiences with TWI, Martindale and Wierwille have been spelled out in painstaking detail. People who come here can take it or leave it, just as you can.
Nobody's getting paid to advance the mission, whatever that mission may be. So, as a message board, GSC has provided a forum for people to both express and read about their own and other people's experience. That's really all it's about as I see it.
One of the best things I learned in my early days of recovery at the cafe was that everyone has a different reality based on their own individual experiences in life, and that IT IS OK if we don't all experience the world, or even the shared cult experience the same way. Someone else's opinion may be different from mine, someone else's beliefs may differ from mine. It's ok if I don't agree, and it's ok if they don't agree with me. I can still respect that person, care for that person, and treat them well, even while disagreeing.
It think it's pretty nifty. I like being kind. It's pretty awesome.
But then again, I'm not an "old Catholic" yet... At 42, I still think I'm pretty young. Right? :wink2:/>
However, I still reserve the right to turn those trying to sell me religion away if I have better things to do - like laundry, or drinking a peaceful cup of coffee, or petting the cat, or playing with my kid, or spending time with my husband, or watching Game of Thrones.
MWRAP...sorry but to me you come across as someone who joined ( very recently that is ) to seemingly appear genuine in concern, interest and need regarding ex-twi peops and to promote a life ( Christian or not ) outside of twi ? Yet I can't help wondering if you were just biding your time ( you could have waited a little longer :o )to convey your true 'mission'...to vilify the peops that post here ?? I'm just saying what I think and maybe some others. I'm not a forum mod, so I don't mind saying this...and hey, you and anyone else feel free to correct me if my hunch is wrong :) I've had my run-ins with Raf, WordWolf etc..but I try not to take it personally and just move on ( posting that is :)
I'm sometimes surprised at how my point of view on most things has changed through the years and events of my life. I'm sure you will too, MRAP and already probably have in various ways.
This is not meant to put you down, but, I don't think you or any "outsider" can understand us and what we are about by reading the words here. The things we wrote about took place over many months at least if not years. Additionally all kinds of strong emotions accompanied these events. You know, the words we've left here, the stories we've told.......all of this (or nearly all of it) was left quite some time ago. You can tell that just by looking at the dates! Moreover, nearly all of us shared the same feelings of fear, frustration, anger, rage, or whatever else that took place at that time.
We all understand that in each other. We didn't have the same experience and, therefore, didn't have identical emotional issues, but we share enough to understand and identify with each other to the degree that we do. It's one of those things where - to borrow a phrase - "you had to be there".
I hope you've gotten some of the answers you came looking for. If not, I encourage you to ask them again even if you have to rephrase them. But please start a new thread. We can't see the questions if they are buried here, and others who come looking won't find them either.
Recommended Posts
WordWolf
I tend not to lose sleep about all this.
At worst, I'll sigh or something or I may find something interesting in their POV
even if I think the overview is completely wrong.
The closest to bothering me is when someone's making a point of being
obnoxious about one position or the other specifically to goad the other side.
Whichever side they support, I usually look for the door right about then.
I don't have the patience anymore to deal with children on a soapbox.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Why would I care what anyone else believes about God? Unless they were harming people...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I think some people are bothered by this sort of thing because we, as human type creatures, have an innate desire to be the one who is "right".
(But I could be wrong.) :B)
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
Not. Any. More. (pop pop fizz fizz oh what a relief it is...)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Especially as former twi followers. Most humans, however, have an even stronger desire to belong.
I can say AMEN to that! :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Don't think my neighbours believe in anything.
I'm involved in various Christian activities locally. The trinity is something I simply never raise or discuss with any of them.
Interestingly, my Mum has recently decided for various reasons to become an Adherent (=decided to join/become a member) in the Salvation Army. The joining form requires applicants to affirm their belief in the trinity. She declined to sign this and asked the membership sec to come and see her to discuss, and raise with his/her superiors. In between times, however, the form has changed and now requires wannabes to simply affirm they hold to SA beliefs, with none spelled out specifically. She doesn't mind signing this.
I applied for a job recently (which I didn't get) with a Christian organisation. That application required a declaration that I agreed with their beliefs, first of which was the existence of the trinity. I pondered this and did sign the declaration, because I figured that the work done would exceed the lie (that they believe!) but I had and still have qualms about that.
I've always thought that if the trinity doctrine was important to God and the Lord Jesus, they would have done something about this lie before, in the hundreds of years since it was first promulgated. As they haven't I conclude it can't be that worrying to them and there are bigger issues that they concern themselves with.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I don't mind discussing different beliefs as long as everyone agrees that's what we're doing. And sometimes that discussion can be quite challenging (and emotional). The key is, you have to want to participate in such a discussion. Otherwise, it's just arguing and it benefits no one.
It doesn't bother me that anyone believes in the Trinity. It doesn't bother me that anyone believes in God. I hope it doesn't bother anyone that I believe in neither.
However, your reasons for believing, and my reasons for not believing, are (in and of themselves) interesting topics of conversation for some people. I'm game to discuss them with anyone, in the proper setting (which, in the context of this site, is in doctrinal, which I subdivided even further so that anyone not desiring to discuss doubts can avoid such conversations easily).
I look at it this way: you can enjoy drinking alcohol without advocating drunkenness. A sip of wine at home? Cool. Hanging out at a bar with friends? Cool. Going to that same bar at 1:30 a.m.? Look, you're going to encounter drunkenness there. If you want to avoid it, don't go there.
It's the same with difficult and challenging conversations. If you want to avoid them, don't go where they're taking place. It's not hard.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
Raf, good question/sub-forum. I resonate with most of what has already been posted. I do cringe when family members (mostly Luterans) touch on the subject but years on the witness circuit have taught me not to engage in a discussion that is not going to go anywhere other than rub the cat's fur the wrong way; if I thought that believing in the triune would keep a person outa heaven, then I would be more of an antagonist on the subject but I have not seen that is the case, I am a Romans 10: 9-10 sorta guy - someone correct me if I am wrong on that (direct me to the correct doctrinal sub-forum).
I understand your concern about keeping things in the correct forums but gee Raf, so much of this crosses lines and tangents are quickly developed: if we see things going that way then someone should just speak up and take it to the doctrinal forum, i.e, take it outside you two.
Really Raf, you are in a unique position since you don't have an emotional bond to a set of Biblical beliefs but have strong knowledge of the Bible - that's what's looked for in an arbitrator or consultant at the least. I appreciate your abilities to fall in on the topics knowing that you are not trying to push a belief.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
Oops, Ham started the sub forum, my appologies Raf (thought it strange you would do that).
Someone let me know if this is being moved to the doctrinal or another forum.
Edited by MRAPLink to comment
Share on other sites
JavaJane
My neighbors on one side are part of a fundamentalist christian cult who are praying to bring about the end of the world, and while I am not too cool on seeing Zuul any time soon, I am not going to pick a fight about their beliefs. I am sure they think we are all going to hell because of the statue of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the statue of St Francis of Assissi in the front flower garden. Arguments with religious fanatics are useless, and I no longer find them entertaining, but more of a waste of time and energy.
One great thing about being Catholic - I can now answer the door when people come by witnessing and say "Sorry, I'm Catholic" and close the door, just like so many Catholics did to me while I was a WOW Ambassador and a Way Disciple.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Arguments with religious fanatics are useless.. including myself. I often argue with myself, I should know..
I would rather argue with myself. There are a few advantages to this strategy..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Sometimes, it's your only chance at having an intelligent conversation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
:lol:
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: Does it BOTHER you that your neighbor beilieves in a Trinity?
I don't know what my neighbors believe. It sure seemed to bother a lot of people that us wayfers did NOT believe in a trinity. Never met anybody more glassy eyed than those people who hated on us back then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
so then, if you do not know what your neighbors believe..
does it make any difference what your neighbors believe, is it any business of yours what your neighbors believe, to the extent that your neighbor wants to tell you what they believe.
What about Numerology. Three versus One.
Well, plus a few other significant numbers..
do you still feel uncomfortably different than others, and the rest of Gods Creation..
its just a question.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Now if 6 turned out to be 9,
I don't mind, I don't mind.
.....Jimi Hendrix
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
quote: Does it BOTHER you that your neighbor believes in a Trinity?
No.
Does it bother me that my neighbor is a buddhist (or Muslim, or Hindu etc.)
No.
Does it bother me that my neighbor believes in the tooth fairy?
No.
Does it bother me that my neighbor drives a Ford?
No, but it brings up very traumatic memories.
Does it bother me that my neighbor plays loud rap music at 4am on a work night?
Yes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
If it bothered Jesus Christ that people believe in the Trinity, he would have put an end to it a long time ago. After all, he is the head of the body... oh wait, I must be thinking of the man of God of the world for this our day and time... Has anybody seen him since he croaked?
Shucks...
Love,
Steve
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
Share on other sites
MRAP
I pretty much got the jist on this site: not too many folks take the word seriously BUT there are a few that do. What follows is not directed to those who are not "nay sayers".
So really you majority of GSC posters, you know who you are and hopefull know yourselves: can you possibley address issues in a non condesending manor, hate to say it, but I think not. This site has imploded, nothing new, most hits are on "tell me the quote of that movie or song". Really good folks, is that all you are good for. When I came onto this site and laid myself out there you jumped on me like raw meat - think about it. Anyone who monitors this site sees your actions - no wonder I was the last person to join back in March of the year and no one since. Really, how many new folk have entertained themselves on this site in recent years? You regulars for the last 15 years, you have made yourselves inaccessible, alot because you have made yourselves into a clique. You see, if you have been around for years, you are quite personable to each other - not a way to entreate newby's (they see it). Things I have been ostrized for as disrespectfull (making short of names) I have observed by veteran GSC members. There should be no such thing as earning your wings.
I honestly have learned alot on this site - had to sift through alot of the nasty bull to get to it (some of you just talk/write way too much before you ever get to the point and at times, get so consumed in your own discertation that you never get there). Yet, I am more than blessed to have found GSC, what you all take as common knowledge (given you backgrounds that I respect) I just suck it up - good stuff.
So, like I told Raf a while back, you can all discommunicate me - or whatever the secular religious word is for "throw out". Oh, discommunicate is actualy a very acurate word, because anytime MRAP appears on a Forum or sub formum, there is no response from the seniors. Now if it's on the doctrinal forum, then there are some learned responses but not from the seniors (you old folks) unless it is of a smacking nature.
It's been fun also, watching how older Christian women and men become vicious. I thought that was only indicative of old Catholic men and women - well, you proved me wrong.
Now I am not perfect but what I have said, those are just observations from an old and learned man. You folk need to become self aware if you want new folk to learn from your vast knowledge and experience: become more accessable and drop the clique syndrome that is overly obvious. Now, if you don't care, then screw it. I KNOW, this is a recovery site for injured Way Folk; when's the last time this site accomplished that edict in the GSC mission statement?
Yes, as a true brother, I have been honest, I have praised and pointed out problems and accepted my own frailty in making such statements. You are all a very special people, you are my brothers and sisters but you are more than that to me because of a common pain and enlightenment. So please, take this from an old man with a true heart who cares for you, your mission and appreciation for the friendship that you share with one an other - that is the true phileo.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Of course, that's not necessarily the thread topic, but hey, why not set forth (probably a bit less awkward if you had started a new thread dedicated to setting forth your observations) what you have seen and how you put it all together in your perception?
Your perception/observation/opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. I don't agree with it or see it the same way, but that's okay.
The only concern I'd have with what you said above is to be careful in making heavy handed judgment of people. Your perspective is not the only valid way to look at it all.
As to the GSC mission, I wouldn't worry so much about it. The information on peoples' experiences with TWI, Martindale and Wierwille have been spelled out in painstaking detail. People who come here can take it or leave it, just as you can.
Nobody's getting paid to advance the mission, whatever that mission may be. So, as a message board, GSC has provided a forum for people to both express and read about their own and other people's experience. That's really all it's about as I see it.
It's been real. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Get off my lawn!!
Nah. Nobody's gonna throw you out.
:lol:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JavaJane
One of the best things I learned in my early days of recovery at the cafe was that everyone has a different reality based on their own individual experiences in life, and that IT IS OK if we don't all experience the world, or even the shared cult experience the same way. Someone else's opinion may be different from mine, someone else's beliefs may differ from mine. It's ok if I don't agree, and it's ok if they don't agree with me. I can still respect that person, care for that person, and treat them well, even while disagreeing.
It think it's pretty nifty. I like being kind. It's pretty awesome.
But then again, I'm not an "old Catholic" yet... At 42, I still think I'm pretty young. Right? :wink2:/>
However, I still reserve the right to turn those trying to sell me religion away if I have better things to do - like laundry, or drinking a peaceful cup of coffee, or petting the cat, or playing with my kid, or spending time with my husband, or watching Game of Thrones.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
MWRAP...sorry but to me you come across as someone who joined ( very recently that is ) to seemingly appear genuine in concern, interest and need regarding ex-twi peops and to promote a life ( Christian or not ) outside of twi ? Yet I can't help wondering if you were just biding your time ( you could have waited a little longer :o )to convey your true 'mission'...to vilify the peops that post here ?? I'm just saying what I think and maybe some others. I'm not a forum mod, so I don't mind saying this...and hey, you and anyone else feel free to correct me if my hunch is wrong :) I've had my run-ins with Raf, WordWolf etc..but I try not to take it personally and just move on ( posting that is :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
I'm sometimes surprised at how my point of view on most things has changed through the years and events of my life. I'm sure you will too, MRAP and already probably have in various ways.
This is not meant to put you down, but, I don't think you or any "outsider" can understand us and what we are about by reading the words here. The things we wrote about took place over many months at least if not years. Additionally all kinds of strong emotions accompanied these events. You know, the words we've left here, the stories we've told.......all of this (or nearly all of it) was left quite some time ago. You can tell that just by looking at the dates! Moreover, nearly all of us shared the same feelings of fear, frustration, anger, rage, or whatever else that took place at that time.
We all understand that in each other. We didn't have the same experience and, therefore, didn't have identical emotional issues, but we share enough to understand and identify with each other to the degree that we do. It's one of those things where - to borrow a phrase - "you had to be there".
I hope you've gotten some of the answers you came looking for. If not, I encourage you to ask them again even if you have to rephrase them. But please start a new thread. We can't see the questions if they are buried here, and others who come looking won't find them either.
Edited by krysLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.