I would like to hear from those people who were raised in the church and who who fully believed in the trinity, Who got involved with TWI and who changed their belief to be non-trinitarian...Who, after leaving TWI wanted to get back to believing once again in the Trinity.....How'd you do it????
Thanks for your experience.......
I'm not your target audience, and most of them moved on after GSC.
I was raised Roman Catholic, and was an altar boy in a family involved in the local parish.
(Altar boys, commentators, a Eucharistic minister.) I was told to believe in
the Trinity. In fairness, I never had any depth of that other than being told
to believe in that. So, when I left the church at age 12, it was because I had
no confidence that what they-or any other Christian- taught had any validity.
After a few years of being a dedicated anti-Christian and being anti-Bible,
I got involved with twi. (As you can imagine, there's quite a story with such a
drastic change in worldview and perspective in the course of a week, for me to
even attend my first meeting.)
I "became a Trinitarian" in the technical sense but didn't have any real belief
invested in it. When I had questions my local parish was ill-equipped to even face,
I walked away from the Trinity (in addition to Christianity.) A few years later,
I got involved with twi. My reasons for believing the Trinity was incorrect but
Christianity WAS correct were more based on sense now than before, although, admittedly,
somewhere in there was the idea that someone who was truly expert on these matters
signed off on it.
Now that I have the freedom to believe any of those, I find that I can get along with
Christians of all stamps providing they're conducting themselves like Christians and
not Pharisees of any flavor. I don't have anything invested in any doctrine other than
preference, and can change that if the information changes. I have yet to see a
convincing argument for the Trinity over non-Trinity.
If I ever became a Trinitarian, it would be a REAL one and not just going through the
motions because I'm told to believe this by authority figures. If I ever became one,
it would be because it made the most sense to me.
That's the closest I can come to answering your question-the hypothetical as to what
And one more answer-you're-not-looking-for, this time from an atheist:
People can believe in the Trinity because there is Biblical support for the notion that Jesus existed prior to his birth. It was (and remains) my belief that Hebrews rules out Jesus being an angel, so if he existed prior to his birth and he's not an angel, that really only leaves you with God.
It should be noted that Jehovah's Witnesses DO believe Jesus was an angel, and they (obviously) interpret Hebrews differently than I do.
And then there's TWI, which contends Jesus did not exist until he was conceived and later born.
In order to adopt any of these positions, in my opinion, you need to do two things: first, summon the support from the scriptures that agree with you (or appear to), and second, explain those verses that seem to conflict with your position.
If Jesus is God, why does he say "My Father is greater than I am"?
If Jesus is not God, what does John 1 mean?
If Jesus is not an angel, how can he both pre-exist and be lesser than the Father at the same time?
If Jesus is an angel, why does Hebrews go to so much trouble refuting his identity as an angel?
That's just a small sample of the questions raised by each position.
Here's the least invited part of my observation: These questions are only substantial if you hold that the Bible has a uniform message about who Jesus is. There is an alternative answer, one I feel fits the facts better than any of those proposed: The writers of the Bible disagreed with each other about who and what Jesus was. Passionately. No wonder Christians today can't reach a consensus! There never was a consensus.
newlife: I was a "Confirmed Lutheran but never understood the trinity nor believed it so it was not a factor to unbelieve the trinity. I never believed that Jesus was God - maybe an inner thought process told me that was not possible. You see, I had a terrible Luteran Reverend, I feared him and thus, just recited what he told me to - my brother folk under his yolk did the same. Bottom line, fear made me stupid and actually, that ended up a good thing for me.
Regarding other posts on this sub forum matter: I sure would like to get to the bottom of what goes on in God's mind - what's real and what's not but if it's real to God then it exists (I only understand it as what is real to God does not equate in the same time zone as what is real to me).
newlife: I was a "Confirmed Lutheran but never understood the trinity nor believed it so it was not a factor to unbelieve the trinity. I never believed that Jesus was God - maybe an inner thought process told me that was not possible. You see, I had a terrible Luteran Reverend, I feared him and thus, just recited what he told me to - my brother folk under his yolk did the same. Bottom line, fear made me stupid and actually, that ended up a good thing for me.
Regarding other posts on this sub forum matter: I sure would like to get to the bottom of what goes on in God's mind - what's real and what's not but if it's real to God then it exists (I only understand it as what is real to God does not equate in the same time zone as what is real to me).
MRAP,
you might want to pose your questions on a new thread in Doctrinal.
They're off-topic in the middle of an unrelated thread in ATW.
WordWolf, I was not poseing questions, I thought that I was responding to newlife's post. I don't see how my post was anymore jetting into the doctrinal arena than previous posts that also includes your dissertation.
WordWolf, I was not poseing questions, I thought that I was responding to newlife's post. I don't see how my post was anymore jetting into the doctrinal arena than previous posts that also includes your dissertation.
It looked to me like you wanted to discuss them. I was reminding you that we do that
sort of thing, and where to post it to get things rolling.
I have no recollection of being taught the trinity as a kid. By the time I got old enough to know, I was attending a UU church, led by an atheist. When I started with TWI, I was good with who they taught that Jesus was not. I had real issues with who they taught he was, once I left. I now attend a church that has become very trinitarian since it left PCUSA and went to evangelical Presbyterian. I get why they believe it, but in my opinion it misses the whole point. I don't discuss it with anyone there other than I felt that the reason for dropping Gwen Shamblin's Weigh Down was the wrong reason. They did it because she came out as non-trinitarian (technically socian unitarian). I personally had problems with her views on obedience and how she put them into practice in her own ministry.
So for me there's nothing to go back to. If I were to go back to anything post TWI, it would be some form of humanism as the new age stuff I dabbled in still strikes me as ridiculous.
Here's another answer from the non-target audience!
I believed in the Trinity because that's what my church told me to believe.
I stopped believing in the Trinity because Wierwille did a good job of undermining the credibility of mainstream churches and played a swift shell game with bible verses
Similar to Raf, I now think that no matter which position you take you have to explain away verses that contradict your position. My position now is that "The Bible" doesn't teach that Jesus is God or that he isn't, but writers of some books taught that he is God and some didn't and we are left trying to make disparate agendas "fit like a hand in a glove".
Similar to Raf, I now think that no matter which position you take you have to explain away verses that contradict your position. My position now is that "The Bible" doesn't teach that Jesus is God or that he isn't, but writers of some books taught that he is God and some didn't and we are left trying to make disparate agendas "fit like a hand in a glove".
Well, I was raised Lutheran, then Wiccan, then TWI.... And now I am a Buddhist Catholic with a little bit of Pagan thrown in there as well. I never believed in the trinity, and now I believe in A trinity, but not the one that is taught in Christian churches. And my belief if just MY belief, not one that was taught to me through sanctioned church doctrine...
I believe that God has three central aspects - God as a Father, God as a Mother, and God as Progeny. I believe that each aspect is equally important, and that each is God. I believe that religion got scared of the Divine Feminine and switched her out for the Holy Spirit, because that was easier than treating female as equal to male.
But like I said, that's just me and my Pagan leanings.And isn't it great that I can have my own opinions now and not give a flying poop about anyone else's approval? I think so.
Is the Trinity all that important in the whole scheme of Life, the Universe, and Everything?
I don't think so. Far more important to love, be kind, and live a good life while you can, in my opinion.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I'm only halfway there. I was brought up RC, and so never read the Bible much.
PFAL introduced me to an alternative view, which made a lot more sense.
I have no inclination to return to a Trinitarian viewpoint.
George
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WordWolf
I'm not your target audience, and most of them moved on after GSC.
I was raised Roman Catholic, and was an altar boy in a family involved in the local parish.
(Altar boys, commentators, a Eucharistic minister.) I was told to believe in
the Trinity. In fairness, I never had any depth of that other than being told
to believe in that. So, when I left the church at age 12, it was because I had
no confidence that what they-or any other Christian- taught had any validity.
After a few years of being a dedicated anti-Christian and being anti-Bible,
I got involved with twi. (As you can imagine, there's quite a story with such a
drastic change in worldview and perspective in the course of a week, for me to
even attend my first meeting.)
I "became a Trinitarian" in the technical sense but didn't have any real belief
invested in it. When I had questions my local parish was ill-equipped to even face,
I walked away from the Trinity (in addition to Christianity.) A few years later,
I got involved with twi. My reasons for believing the Trinity was incorrect but
Christianity WAS correct were more based on sense now than before, although, admittedly,
somewhere in there was the idea that someone who was truly expert on these matters
signed off on it.
Now that I have the freedom to believe any of those, I find that I can get along with
Christians of all stamps providing they're conducting themselves like Christians and
not Pharisees of any flavor. I don't have anything invested in any doctrine other than
preference, and can change that if the information changes. I have yet to see a
convincing argument for the Trinity over non-Trinity.
If I ever became a Trinitarian, it would be a REAL one and not just going through the
motions because I'm told to believe this by authority figures. If I ever became one,
it would be because it made the most sense to me.
That's the closest I can come to answering your question-the hypothetical as to what
it would take.
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Raf
And one more answer-you're-not-looking-for, this time from an atheist:
People can believe in the Trinity because there is Biblical support for the notion that Jesus existed prior to his birth. It was (and remains) my belief that Hebrews rules out Jesus being an angel, so if he existed prior to his birth and he's not an angel, that really only leaves you with God.
It should be noted that Jehovah's Witnesses DO believe Jesus was an angel, and they (obviously) interpret Hebrews differently than I do.
And then there's TWI, which contends Jesus did not exist until he was conceived and later born.
In order to adopt any of these positions, in my opinion, you need to do two things: first, summon the support from the scriptures that agree with you (or appear to), and second, explain those verses that seem to conflict with your position.
If Jesus is God, why does he say "My Father is greater than I am"?
If Jesus is not God, what does John 1 mean?
If Jesus is not an angel, how can he both pre-exist and be lesser than the Father at the same time?
If Jesus is an angel, why does Hebrews go to so much trouble refuting his identity as an angel?
That's just a small sample of the questions raised by each position.
Here's the least invited part of my observation: These questions are only substantial if you hold that the Bible has a uniform message about who Jesus is. There is an alternative answer, one I feel fits the facts better than any of those proposed: The writers of the Bible disagreed with each other about who and what Jesus was. Passionately. No wonder Christians today can't reach a consensus! There never was a consensus.
Here endeth uninvited response number three.
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MRAP
newlife: I was a "Confirmed Lutheran but never understood the trinity nor believed it so it was not a factor to unbelieve the trinity. I never believed that Jesus was God - maybe an inner thought process told me that was not possible. You see, I had a terrible Luteran Reverend, I feared him and thus, just recited what he told me to - my brother folk under his yolk did the same. Bottom line, fear made me stupid and actually, that ended up a good thing for me.
Regarding other posts on this sub forum matter: I sure would like to get to the bottom of what goes on in God's mind - what's real and what's not but if it's real to God then it exists (I only understand it as what is real to God does not equate in the same time zone as what is real to me).
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WordWolf
MRAP,
you might want to pose your questions on a new thread in Doctrinal.
They're off-topic in the middle of an unrelated thread in ATW.
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MRAP
WordWolf, I was not poseing questions, I thought that I was responding to newlife's post. I don't see how my post was anymore jetting into the doctrinal arena than previous posts that also includes your dissertation.
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WordWolf
It looked to me like you wanted to discuss them. I was reminding you that we do that
sort of thing, and where to post it to get things rolling.
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MRAP
Thanks WordWolf.
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Tzaia
I have no recollection of being taught the trinity as a kid. By the time I got old enough to know, I was attending a UU church, led by an atheist. When I started with TWI, I was good with who they taught that Jesus was not. I had real issues with who they taught he was, once I left. I now attend a church that has become very trinitarian since it left PCUSA and went to evangelical Presbyterian. I get why they believe it, but in my opinion it misses the whole point. I don't discuss it with anyone there other than I felt that the reason for dropping Gwen Shamblin's Weigh Down was the wrong reason. They did it because she came out as non-trinitarian (technically socian unitarian). I personally had problems with her views on obedience and how she put them into practice in her own ministry.
So for me there's nothing to go back to. If I were to go back to anything post TWI, it would be some form of humanism as the new age stuff I dabbled in still strikes me as ridiculous.
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GarthP2000
"How'd you do it? ... Change beliefs"
One possible way, ... Don't believe in said belief anymore.
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Allan
I still hold pretty much to majority of beliefs I was presented with. Why change what works ? ( for me )
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Ham
My beliefs mostly imposed by others was suddenly abandoned (by others that is).
Which is weird.. maybe I was the proverbial Rice Christian.. in some sort of sense..
Give me Family, and friendship, and I am your Christian..
maybe that's it.
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Oakspear
Here's another answer from the non-target audience!
I believed in the Trinity because that's what my church told me to believe.
I stopped believing in the Trinity because Wierwille did a good job of undermining the credibility of mainstream churches and played a swift shell game with bible verses
Similar to Raf, I now think that no matter which position you take you have to explain away verses that contradict your position. My position now is that "The Bible" doesn't teach that Jesus is God or that he isn't, but writers of some books taught that he is God and some didn't and we are left trying to make disparate agendas "fit like a hand in a glove".
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waysider
But, what kind of glove..... work glove, surgical glove, driving glove, catcher's mitt, snow mittens?
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Broken Arrow
You mean we have to think? Darn it!
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JavaJane
Well, I was raised Lutheran, then Wiccan, then TWI.... And now I am a Buddhist Catholic with a little bit of Pagan thrown in there as well. I never believed in the trinity, and now I believe in A trinity, but not the one that is taught in Christian churches. And my belief if just MY belief, not one that was taught to me through sanctioned church doctrine...
I believe that God has three central aspects - God as a Father, God as a Mother, and God as Progeny. I believe that each aspect is equally important, and that each is God. I believe that religion got scared of the Divine Feminine and switched her out for the Holy Spirit, because that was easier than treating female as equal to male.
But like I said, that's just me and my Pagan leanings.And isn't it great that I can have my own opinions now and not give a flying poop about anyone else's approval? I think so.
Is the Trinity all that important in the whole scheme of Life, the Universe, and Everything?
I don't think so. Far more important to love, be kind, and live a good life while you can, in my opinion.
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