I think it should go without saying that I watch the Flash, Arrow, Gotham, and Agents of Shield. I also watched Constantine. Though not a big fan of the character, I think that Matt Ryan was an excellent choice to portray him. It's doubtful that Constantine will return, though.
Back to the Flash. I don't know that the last episode was better than the others; I've liked them all. I especially enjoyed seeing the stars of "Prison Break," Wentworth Miller and Dominic Purcell, reunited as Captain Cold and Heat Wave. It will be interesting to see how the next episode plays out. I suspect that a lot of the events of this one will be overturned. I'll pass on saying any more, to avoid spoiling it for WW.
Here's the only "spoiler" I'll give you. "Out of Time" may well have been the best single hour of superhero television I have ever seen. Excellent, excellent writing.
Here's the only "spoiler" I'll give you. "Out of Time" may well have been the best single hour of superhero television I have ever seen. Excellent, excellent writing.
We just saw it. We both disagree. We were a little disappointed.
I think it should go without saying that I watch the Flash, Arrow, Gotham, and Agents of Shield. I also watched Constantine. Though not a big fan of the character, I think that Matt Ryan was an excellent choice to portray him. It's doubtful that Constantine will return, though.
Back to the Flash. I don't know that the last episode was better than the others; I've liked them all. I especially enjoyed seeing the stars of "Prison Break," Wentworth Miller and Dominic Purcell, reunited as Captain Cold and Heat Wave. It will be interesting to see how the next episode plays out. I suspect that a lot of the events of this one will be overturned. I'll pass on saying any more, to avoid spoiling it for WW.
George
At the end of the episode, Mrs Wolf gave her breakdown of the ending,
and predicted that everything from the event about 6:30 into the episode
(when the clock struck 10pm) to the end will be retconned.
I agree with her, with only some disagreement as to whether the Chief
will be saved. (She says he will, I say he won't.)
Care to discuss the series as a whole, individual episodes, ruminations?
In the DC universe, Cisco Ramon is "Vibe," so I doubt he'll really be killed off. It's interesting that in the "old days" (late Silver Age), Reverse Flash (Eobard Thawne) killed Barry Allen's wife, Iris (West), by vibrating his hand inside her brain. I guess that when they did the show, they thought that that might be a little grosser than having him do it inside Cisco's chest. (PS: Barry was able to prevent the murder of his wife by going back in time and breaking Thawne's neck. I doubt we'll see THAT here, either.)
In the DC universe, Cisco Ramon is "Vibe," so I doubt he'll really be killed off. It's interesting that in the "old days" (late Silver Age), Reverse Flash (Eobard Thawne) killed Barry Allen's wife, Iris (West), by vibrating his hand inside her brain. I guess that when they did the show, they thought that that might be a little grosser than having him do it inside Cisco's chest. (PS: Barry was able to prevent the murder of his wife by going back in time and breaking Thawne's neck. I doubt we'll see THAT here, either.)
George
Simon Stagg and General Eiling both were killed off, so who can tell who's slated to die?
Don't forget about Reverb/Hardline. If they kill Cisco, his brother's still alive,
and we know almost nothing about him.
I'm sure the consensus is that the chest-kill is a lot less gross than the brain-kill.
(I'm in wholehearted agreement on that and am glad they didn't use the other.)
We've also read Wally West/Flash stopping Thawne by threatening to go strangle Eobard
in his cradle- and trick Eobard into fleeing the present and trying to chase Wally
through time.
We've already got some ideas as to what happened with Eobard. I've done the most
speculating. My track record with "Agents of SHIELD" has gotten pretty good,
so I'm a lot more confident about my theories of Flash-canon for TV.
don't think its cheating unless they fail to establish the mechanism beforehand. In this case time travel was teased all season long. In addition that was the mystery of the flash at the beginning of the episode.. That was laying groundwork.Not lazy
don't think its cheating unless they fail to establish the mechanism beforehand. In this case time travel was teased all season long. In addition that was the mystery of the flash at the beginning of the episode.. That was laying groundwork.Not lazy
I think the "he was a mirage in the other episode" thing was cheating.
(The other episode should have looked MUCH different.)
She thinks the "we told the audience and now we're retconning almost
all the episode so now the audience knows but not the character" thing
was cheating. (Lazy writing, a little like a deus ex machina, in a way.)
We knew there were 2 time travelers in the beginning.
Actually, Mrs Wolf worked it out in the beginning with me keeping silent
except for answering very specific questions. I consider time travel not
to be an issue, providing we complete the loop.
I think you thought I was saying the reveal on Wells was a retcon. No,
we knew he was from the future. We weren't sure if he was the present
Wells who had traveled in time more than once and was faking being his
younger self, or someone imitating his ancestor after planning it and
altering his appearance, then traveling back. (In the comic, Eobard
Thawne, actually, DID alter his appearance and acquire powers deliberately
before his first time trip. I won't post why in case, somehow, that's
It's not the time travel that bothered me. It's Captain Cold (and probably Heat Wave and Golden Glider) knowing Flash's identity, and the bizarre bargain that Barry made with him. If I understand correctly, it's basically "I won't toss you in jail while you rob stuff, as long as you don't kill anyone or bother my friends." There are a number of instances in the DC universe where a villain knows a hero's identity but doesn't reveal it (Ra's al Ghul/Batman comes to mind immediately); but the rationales never made sense to me. The only part I COULD see is the "If you're so great, you don't need to kill" appeal to CC's ego. (And, incidentally, Flash's Rogues DO have a no-killing code, in the comics.) I don't see this version of Heat Wave agreeing to that, though perhaps CC can keep him (and GG) in line.
Not to derail this thread, but I really don't think we need an "Arrow" thread...
Since when is the Atom just Iron Man? (I don't mind that this version of Ray Palmer is (yet another) genius billionaire instead of a brilliant college physics professor.) I hope he loses most of the tech/armor and works in shrinking.
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WordWolf
It was a direct quote of the LoT "Invasion!" episode,.at 6:20. "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra!" "I'll take that as 'have fun storming the castle." "Oh. For real? You're gonna use Princess Bride
GeorgeStGeorge
That's what happens with Ralph Dibny in the mix. (Of course, Gypsy's dad was a hoot, too.) George
WordWolf
While Mrs Wolf and I have watched "Arrow" and "Flash" consistently,
we haven't seen the last episode of either.
(They haven't aired here yet.)
We can discuss the series as a whole, but before Tuesday, we should
be all caught up.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I think it should go without saying that I watch the Flash, Arrow, Gotham, and Agents of Shield. I also watched Constantine. Though not a big fan of the character, I think that Matt Ryan was an excellent choice to portray him. It's doubtful that Constantine will return, though.
Back to the Flash. I don't know that the last episode was better than the others; I've liked them all. I especially enjoyed seeing the stars of "Prison Break," Wentworth Miller and Dominic Purcell, reunited as Captain Cold and Heat Wave. It will be interesting to see how the next episode plays out. I suspect that a lot of the events of this one will be overturned. I'll pass on saying any more, to avoid spoiling it for WW.
George
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Raf
Wolf, how far behind are you? Exactly one week?
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WordWolf
We saw "Fallout." We have not seen "Out Of Time."
And thank you for holding spoilers. I'll post a notice as soon as we see the last
episode.
(We watch Agents of SHIELD, Flash, and Arrow. We haven't seen "this week's"
episode of any of them. Small surprise, since none of them have aired
here yet. I have seen all the Gotham episodes, but she's lost interest in
the series and just asks me for recaps and for the scenes with Edward.
And what's "this week's episode" depends on the local airing cycle.
All the shows I mentioned air 1-3 weeks later here than where you are,
mostly so the subtitles can be added. The same with Big Bang Theory and
Elementary, which we follow and used to follow, respectively.)
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Raf
Here's the only "spoiler" I'll give you. "Out of Time" may well have been the best single hour of superhero television I have ever seen. Excellent, excellent writing.
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WordWolf
We just saw it. We both disagree. We were a little disappointed.
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WordWolf
At the end of the episode, Mrs Wolf gave her breakdown of the ending,
and predicted that everything from the event about 6:30 into the episode
(when the clock struck 10pm) to the end will be retconned.
I agree with her, with only some disagreement as to whether the Chief
will be saved. (She says he will, I say he won't.)
Care to discuss the series as a whole, individual episodes, ruminations?
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GeorgeStGeorge
In the DC universe, Cisco Ramon is "Vibe," so I doubt he'll really be killed off. It's interesting that in the "old days" (late Silver Age), Reverse Flash (Eobard Thawne) killed Barry Allen's wife, Iris (West), by vibrating his hand inside her brain. I guess that when they did the show, they thought that that might be a little grosser than having him do it inside Cisco's chest. (PS: Barry was able to prevent the murder of his wife by going back in time and breaking Thawne's neck. I doubt we'll see THAT here, either.)
George
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WordWolf
Simon Stagg and General Eiling both were killed off, so who can tell who's slated to die?
Don't forget about Reverb/Hardline. If they kill Cisco, his brother's still alive,
and we know almost nothing about him.
I'm sure the consensus is that the chest-kill is a lot less gross than the brain-kill.
(I'm in wholehearted agreement on that and am glad they didn't use the other.)
We've also read Wally West/Flash stopping Thawne by threatening to go strangle Eobard
in his cradle- and trick Eobard into fleeing the present and trying to chase Wally
through time.
We've already got some ideas as to what happened with Eobard. I've done the most
speculating. My track record with "Agents of SHIELD" has gotten pretty good,
so I'm a lot more confident about my theories of Flash-canon for TV.
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Raf
Disappointed you did like the episode as much as I did.
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WordWolf
We didn't like how the subplots all suddenly piled up-
and how we expect most or all to be hand-waved away in the next episode.
What did you like so much that sliced bread has to move over?
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Raf
The reveal on Wells. The real jeopardy that West was in. The retcon without cheating.
On Barry and Iris, Barry is going to remember what she told him, but she's not. That relationship suddenly became a lot more interesting.
And how did I not see H. Wells as a time traveler?
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WordWolf
I get suspicious of retcons because they are often cheats, and often bad ones.
The reveal on Wells was a surprise in very few ways, for us.
A) His legal name-I had dismissed the idea months ago and forgotten about it.
B) Who he tried to kill
C) the mirage thing, which I think is a cheap trick for the writers based
on how they used it earlier in the series.
That's interesting, but we didn't think it was noteworthy-ish.
Ok, I knew the character was one from the first episode.
We did NOT see the name connection, and Mrs Wolf's chagrined she missed it.
She also said she considered the "reveal then retcon" technique to be
lazy writing. "We want to tell the public some things, so we'll have
everyone learn, then everyone forgets." She thinks that was a cop-out
on revealing secrets to the viewing audience.
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Raf
don't think its cheating unless they fail to establish the mechanism beforehand. In this case time travel was teased all season long. In addition that was the mystery of the flash at the beginning of the episode.. That was laying groundwork.Not lazy
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WordWolf
I think the "he was a mirage in the other episode" thing was cheating.
(The other episode should have looked MUCH different.)
She thinks the "we told the audience and now we're retconning almost
all the episode so now the audience knows but not the character" thing
was cheating. (Lazy writing, a little like a deus ex machina, in a way.)
We knew there were 2 time travelers in the beginning.
Actually, Mrs Wolf worked it out in the beginning with me keeping silent
except for answering very specific questions. I consider time travel not
to be an issue, providing we complete the loop.
I think you thought I was saying the reveal on Wells was a retcon. No,
we knew he was from the future. We weren't sure if he was the present
Wells who had traveled in time more than once and was faking being his
younger self, or someone imitating his ancestor after planning it and
altering his appearance, then traveling back. (In the comic, Eobard
Thawne, actually, DID alter his appearance and acquire powers deliberately
before his first time trip. I won't post why in case, somehow, that's
the reason he did it in the show.)
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GeorgeStGeorge
I don't know when WW will see the current episode, but its resolution of last week's crises is even less satisfying than I had expected.
On the other hand, Trickster, next week!
George
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WordWolf
There was another episode? Give us at least 24 hours.
Apparently Agents of SHIELD aired one, also, so that's something else
to add to my dance card after the Flash episode.
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GeorgeStGeorge
In this part of the world, Flash airs on Tuesday night (7 PM Central). SHIELD also on Tuesday. Arrow on Wednesday. Gotham on Monday.
George
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Raf
On vacation. Missed it. Will watch tonight
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WordWolf
Ok, we saw it. I don't know if Raf did.
I was a little disappointed about the episode's method of handling time travel.
It's inconsistent with what we already know from the series.
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Raf
Some of it was handled ok, but in general, yeah, a letdown from the previous high
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GeorgeStGeorge
It's not the time travel that bothered me. It's Captain Cold (and probably Heat Wave and Golden Glider) knowing Flash's identity, and the bizarre bargain that Barry made with him. If I understand correctly, it's basically "I won't toss you in jail while you rob stuff, as long as you don't kill anyone or bother my friends." There are a number of instances in the DC universe where a villain knows a hero's identity but doesn't reveal it (Ra's al Ghul/Batman comes to mind immediately); but the rationales never made sense to me. The only part I COULD see is the "If you're so great, you don't need to kill" appeal to CC's ego. (And, incidentally, Flash's Rogues DO have a no-killing code, in the comics.) I don't see this version of Heat Wave agreeing to that, though perhaps CC can keep him (and GG) in line.
George
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WordWolf
Mrs Wolf and I both agree Cold didn't tell Mick nor Lisa.
(BTW, the Mrs stopped me when Cisco was getting hit on in the bar,
and asked me if that was Snart's sister.
I stopped, noted the same name and correct hair color,
and we both figured this was the bad guys making a run on Cisco,
or at least Lisa making a run on Cisco.
The wig, BTW, makes sense since, in the comics, a brother and
sister have radically different hair colors. In this case,
that was due to a style decision and a wig.
As for Flash's deal with Len Snart, we didn't like it either.
The only time I liked such a deal was the excellent Epilogue
to the awful "Hush" storyline. Riddler was in jail, and Batman
visited him. Riddler had used a Lazarus Pit, and the bout of
insanity allowed him to figure out Bruce was Batman. So, when
Riddler threatened to tell others, Batman replied with
"What time is it when an elephant sits on a fence?"
Riddler said EVERYONE knew that one. Batman noted that the
Riddler finds riddles worthless when everyone knows the answer.
And, Batman was ready to let the League of Assassins know who
partially used up one of their Lazarus Pits if Riddler talked.
Since then, Riddler's lost that information.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Not to derail this thread, but I really don't think we need an "Arrow" thread...
Since when is the Atom just Iron Man? (I don't mind that this version of Ray Palmer is (yet another) genius billionaire instead of a brilliant college physics professor.) I hope he loses most of the tech/armor and works in shrinking.
George
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