"I would ask you this question: when does a click become a cult?"
This is an excellent question. I suppose the easiest answer would be that a clique becomes a cult when it starts to meet the defining criteria. (ie: charismatic leader, insider jargon, special/privileged knowledge, etc.) In my opinion, it starts to become a cult when it governs your life on a moment by moment basis. I think this is something that is sometimes hard to understand if your involvement with The Way never went beyond the local level. At the local level, you can go to twig fellowship, put on the believer face, do the mannies, drink a little stretched coffee (from a reused styro cup) and go back home in a couple hours to be the real you once again. In contrast, when you're in one of the "training programs" (I was in FellowLaborers of Ohio.), there is no going home. You ARE home, on stage, 24/7. Every moment of every day is consumed with a struggle to (as the actors say) stay in character. You're not really "you". One day, you look in the mirror and wonder who you're really looking at and how you got there. I think, at that point, you start to wonder if you're living some kind of surrealistic existence. You realize your clique is now a cult. It's not one of the happier realizations a person experiences in life.
Gee Waysider, your definition of a cult, well, that sounds like the military. The differnce is that: it is you (for the military that is). When a corp or other "training program" person went home for holiday turkey with family, who were they? In the military, you just left all that behind at the table (just like a job) but in a cult, like you elluded I think, you are expected to stay in character. Actually, in the military, when not out on mission, you went home to wife and kids daily so you never really stayed in character. That's what VPW never understood, he was always able to go home (up the hill to his house)he tried to make the corp into "the Marine Corp" but he was never in the military and thus not into a position to make it like a military organization (too much TV and movies and not enough reality). But darn, did he not get his dream (then I pose the question, what was his dream).
Gee Waysider, your definition of a cult, well, that sounds like the military. The differnce is that: it is you (for the military that is). When a corp or other "training program" person went home for holiday turkey with family, who were they? In the military, you just left all that behind at the table (just like a job) but in a cult, like you elluded I think, you are expected to stay in character. Actually, in the military, when not out on mission, you went home to wife and kids daily so you never really stayed in character. That's what VPW never understood, he was always able to go home (up the hill to his house)he tried to make the corp into "the Marine Corp" but he was never in the military and thus not into a position to make it like a military organization (too much TV and movies and not enough reality). But darn, did he not get his dream (then I pose the question, what was his dream).
Endless supplies of young, attractive women to schtupp, and hundreds of obedient drones. He got those fulfilled... for a time.
Gee Waysider, your definition of a cult, well, that sounds like the military.
Yeah, like boot camp you can never graduate from. Well, you do graduate eventually but then you get assigned soooo not really.Plus, in the military ( or so I'm told) they break you down so they can build you back up the way they want you. In TWI, they just break you down and toss you aside, sometimes in the middle of the night, a thousand miles from home.
What was his dream? I can tell you it surely wasn't "Word Over The World". More like "money for nothin' and chicks for free". HERE is some insight into his dream. The book is an easy read and gives the reader an inside glance of what happens when a clique becomes a cult. The names in the book have been changed for legal reasons but the essence remains the same.
Yeah, like boot camp you can never graduate from. Well, you do graduate eventually but then you get assigned soooo not really.Plus, in the military ( or so I'm told) they break you down so they can build you back up the way they want you. In TWI, they just break you down and toss you aside, sometimes in the middle of the night, a thousand miles from home.
What was his dream? I can tell you it surely wasn't "Word Over The World". More like "money for nothin' and chicks for free". HERE is some insight into his dream. The book is an easy read and gives the reader an inside glance of what happens when a clique becomes a cult. The names in the book have been changed for legal reasons but the essence remains the same.
Manfred Man or was it Dier Strait, either way -that's awsome use of lyrics waysider, but, then again, not to protect the man, did he ever have a real dream that included God? We all know how it ended for VPW. Here's a trivia: I ran (and I mean, ran) around two miles (Cross Country Joc) to the branch leader's house (my family too) to see the MOG, he made note of how I was running to meet him - I took it as a personal approval at the time, I later figured out he was taking the glory for himself - how we ran our butts off to get to him. What I have learned since, VPW led us to believe that the Apostle Paul was the MOG at Paul's time (via the corp, 4th Corp teaching to us) and that he (VPW) was the MOG for our time. Now going back to the Bible, there was no ID' MOG, Jesus was the MOG. That's the greater sin - characterizing yourself as a MOG (When Jesus was the only MOG) and then justifying it by stating that there have been MOGs throughout history (not talking OT here). Now, there are those on this site that will state that this is part of my TWI exit healing process, actually, I am still in the healing process of watching "Ol'e Yeller" at the theater when I was only around 5. I always use that Ol'e Yeller thing when marching up to PTSD type trauma's - it puts things into perspective. Oh, by the way: The Muppets, best show on TV, ever.
.... did he ever have a real dream that included God?
No, I don't think so, not in a positive way at least. I spent 3 years at the FellowLaborers location and not even once did he ever bother to visit. There was an airstrip right down the road. He had a private plane. It was probably a 20 or 30 minute flight at the most. Do the math.
"We all know how it ended for VPW."
Believe it or not, there are still people who don't know the details of how he died. (You can find his death certificate here on GSC.) He died of cancer, as did his brother "Uncle Harry" and his son, Don. This is a massively huge deal to have to reconcile with Way Theology, which teaches that cancer is caused by devil possession. (Advanced Class) It's quite a dilemma. Either he was wrong about this and could have been wrong about a multitude of other things- or- we were following a man who was devil possessed. Yep. There's some irony about it, for sure.
Cancer is from ds possession, was that taught in the advanced course? I am being rehtorical. It was best then for me to have stayed on the field and been later ostrised from TWI rather than going deeper. Yeh, advanced class, met alot of grads, like military academy grads, all theory and no ability to execute a mission (don't want to generalize). I do recall that VPW stated that he wished that he would have never taught that course to people since they did nothing with it - I always thought that the AC grads wielded special spiritual capability - if that were so, why was I asked to ..... by a grad, should have been her job. Kind of a round about way to get to this about cancer and ds's but is it possible? Think of the connection of the manifestations and what was Jesus healing, many times removing ds's, just because TWI leaders could not do it, does not mean that ain't the case. This is all just food for thought and probably should be on the doctrinal forum.
.... did he ever have a real dream that included God?
No, I don't think so, not in a positive way at least. I spent 3 years at the FellowLaborers location and not even once did he ever bother to visit. There was an airstrip right down the road. He had a private plane. It was probably a 20 or 30 minute flight at the most. Do the math.
"We all know how it ended for VPW."
Believe it or not, there are still people who don't know the details of how he died. (You can find his death certificate here on GSC.) He died of cancer, as did his brother "Uncle Harry" and his son, Don. This is a massively huge deal to have to reconcile with Way Theology, which teaches that cancer is caused by devil possession. (Advanced Class) It's quite a dilemma. Either he was wrong about this and could have been wrong about a multitude of other things- or- we were following a man who was devil possessed. Yep. There's some irony about it, for sure.
Well, maybe we saw so much of him because our branch was rich in babes, nah, VPW just had a thing for Wisconsin (he did his seminary there and played pro basketball there). Then again, Donny Fugit came up the year after; now there's a name I have not heard in a long time (Obi Whan Knobe).
There was a thread here a few years ago about some of the wild claims he made, such as the black snow storm, snow on the gas pumps, burning snow, God talking to him, his basketball career, etc. Among the most memorable was the one where he claimed to have a doctorate. (You do know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?)
The trip to India when he supposedly healed the man from the back of a train and was subsequently given the keys to the city. Oh, we had fun examining that one for veracity. (Taken straight out of the Gospel of Mark.) No basis for truth was ever found regarding this incident in India.
He also was the one who had the original idea for fast food restaurants. Then he tried to give the idea to some Christian businessmen but they didn't have the believing to bring it into fruition. Then the idea was in the senses realm and the devil was able to counterfeit it.
He also was the one who had the original idea for fast food restaurants. Then he tried to give the idea to some Christian businessmen but they didn't have the believing to bring it into fruition. Then the idea was in the senses realm and the devil was able to counterfeit it.
You gotta be kidding me Broken Arrow; I was on the field for nearly a month before we were allowed to have red meat, and sure enough, it was Big Mac (I was never much for Macdonalds person - Burger King rules) but that is where the rest of the family wanted to go. We all had digestion issues after that visit. Of course, I was a cheater since the first month on the field I worked at a HoJo's so ate scrambled eggs and ham eaach morning, for half price (good thing, that was all I could afford since the rest of the $ was for ABS and the family fund - the nearest I have experienced to living in communism). After that 1st month, went on to work as an automotive mechanic (I used to be one prior to that, could have used the scrambled eggs and ham for that job), thought that I could keep a bit more of that good $ for "my selfish self" - think again, into the family till. It may have bought us a few more nuts, dates and raisens for the familia, still no milk. Hope this is not off topic - it is, "Oh the Irony". To paraphrase Rocky, no BS in short supply, but it sure was expensive.
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waysider
"I would ask you this question: when does a click become a cult?"
This is an excellent question. I suppose the easiest answer would be that a clique becomes a cult when it starts to meet the defining criteria. (ie: charismatic leader, insider jargon, special/privileged knowledge, etc.) In my opinion, it starts to become a cult when it governs your life on a moment by moment basis. I think this is something that is sometimes hard to understand if your involvement with The Way never went beyond the local level. At the local level, you can go to twig fellowship, put on the believer face, do the mannies, drink a little stretched coffee (from a reused styro cup) and go back home in a couple hours to be the real you once again. In contrast, when you're in one of the "training programs" (I was in FellowLaborers of Ohio.), there is no going home. You ARE home, on stage, 24/7. Every moment of every day is consumed with a struggle to (as the actors say) stay in character. You're not really "you". One day, you look in the mirror and wonder who you're really looking at and how you got there. I think, at that point, you start to wonder if you're living some kind of surrealistic existence. You realize your clique is now a cult. It's not one of the happier realizations a person experiences in life.
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MRAP
Gee Waysider, your definition of a cult, well, that sounds like the military. The differnce is that: it is you (for the military that is). When a corp or other "training program" person went home for holiday turkey with family, who were they? In the military, you just left all that behind at the table (just like a job) but in a cult, like you elluded I think, you are expected to stay in character. Actually, in the military, when not out on mission, you went home to wife and kids daily so you never really stayed in character. That's what VPW never understood, he was always able to go home (up the hill to his house)he tried to make the corp into "the Marine Corp" but he was never in the military and thus not into a position to make it like a military organization (too much TV and movies and not enough reality). But darn, did he not get his dream (then I pose the question, what was his dream).
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Rocky
Endless supplies of young, attractive women to schtupp, and hundreds of obedient drones. He got those fulfilled... for a time.
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waysider
Yeah, like boot camp you can never graduate from. Well, you do graduate eventually but then you get assigned soooo not really.Plus, in the military ( or so I'm told) they break you down so they can build you back up the way they want you. In TWI, they just break you down and toss you aside, sometimes in the middle of the night, a thousand miles from home.
What was his dream? I can tell you it surely wasn't "Word Over The World". More like "money for nothin' and chicks for free". HERE is some insight into his dream. The book is an easy read and gives the reader an inside glance of what happens when a clique becomes a cult. The names in the book have been changed for legal reasons but the essence remains the same.
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MRAP
Manfred Man or was it Dier Strait, either way -that's awsome use of lyrics waysider, but, then again, not to protect the man, did he ever have a real dream that included God? We all know how it ended for VPW. Here's a trivia: I ran (and I mean, ran) around two miles (Cross Country Joc) to the branch leader's house (my family too) to see the MOG, he made note of how I was running to meet him - I took it as a personal approval at the time, I later figured out he was taking the glory for himself - how we ran our butts off to get to him. What I have learned since, VPW led us to believe that the Apostle Paul was the MOG at Paul's time (via the corp, 4th Corp teaching to us) and that he (VPW) was the MOG for our time. Now going back to the Bible, there was no ID' MOG, Jesus was the MOG. That's the greater sin - characterizing yourself as a MOG (When Jesus was the only MOG) and then justifying it by stating that there have been MOGs throughout history (not talking OT here). Now, there are those on this site that will state that this is part of my TWI exit healing process, actually, I am still in the healing process of watching "Ol'e Yeller" at the theater when I was only around 5. I always use that Ol'e Yeller thing when marching up to PTSD type trauma's - it puts things into perspective. Oh, by the way: The Muppets, best show on TV, ever.
A fun forum, see you later green frog.
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waysider
.... did he ever have a real dream that included God?
No, I don't think so, not in a positive way at least. I spent 3 years at the FellowLaborers location and not even once did he ever bother to visit. There was an airstrip right down the road. He had a private plane. It was probably a 20 or 30 minute flight at the most. Do the math.
"We all know how it ended for VPW."
Believe it or not, there are still people who don't know the details of how he died. (You can find his death certificate here on GSC.) He died of cancer, as did his brother "Uncle Harry" and his son, Don. This is a massively huge deal to have to reconcile with Way Theology, which teaches that cancer is caused by devil possession. (Advanced Class) It's quite a dilemma. Either he was wrong about this and could have been wrong about a multitude of other things- or- we were following a man who was devil possessed. Yep. There's some irony about it, for sure.
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waysider
2X
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MRAP
Cancer is from ds possession, was that taught in the advanced course? I am being rehtorical. It was best then for me to have stayed on the field and been later ostrised from TWI rather than going deeper. Yeh, advanced class, met alot of grads, like military academy grads, all theory and no ability to execute a mission (don't want to generalize). I do recall that VPW stated that he wished that he would have never taught that course to people since they did nothing with it - I always thought that the AC grads wielded special spiritual capability - if that were so, why was I asked to ..... by a grad, should have been her job. Kind of a round about way to get to this about cancer and ds's but is it possible? Think of the connection of the manifestations and what was Jesus healing, many times removing ds's, just because TWI leaders could not do it, does not mean that ain't the case. This is all just food for thought and probably should be on the doctrinal forum.
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MRAP
Well, maybe we saw so much of him because our branch was rich in babes, nah, VPW just had a thing for Wisconsin (he did his seminary there and played pro basketball there). Then again, Donny Fugit came up the year after; now there's a name I have not heard in a long time (Obi Whan Knobe).
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WordWolf
Don't lose sleep over contradictory things said in twi by vpw or lcm,
for example. vpw tailored his speeches to his audience and his mood,
and would say the exact opposite of a previous talk to a different
audience if the new speech advanced the agenda of the moment.
For example, at an ROA (Rock of Ages) with the microphone on,
he sounded like he cared nothing at all about money.
When the microphones were off, he was very concerned that all
students make all payments on time, and so on. lcm himself
documented vpw telling him he could stay in the corps
"as long as your money holds".
In the CFS class, vpw made it sound like extra-marital sex wasn't
supposed to be done, but in private on many occasions, he came up
with all sorts of reasons it could be permitted. (Some were
documented in the famous Adultery paper ("Adultery is bad"-
"Don't you dare write a paper saying adultery is bad!")
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waysider
You know he invented the hook shot, right?
(I know he did 'cause he said so.)
:biglaugh:/>
You would think the Sheboygan Redskins could at least have included him on their official roster. Shame on them!
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Tzaia
Are you saying, waysider, that he might have exaggerated his pro basketball credentials?
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waysider
There was a thread here a few years ago about some of the wild claims he made, such as the black snow storm, snow on the gas pumps, burning snow, God talking to him, his basketball career, etc. Among the most memorable was the one where he claimed to have a doctorate. (You do know he wasn't really a Dr., don't you?)
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Tzaia
Yeah, I knew that. I knew about all the other things, too. But somehow I missed the pro basketball thing.
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waysider
The trip to India when he supposedly healed the man from the back of a train and was subsequently given the keys to the city. Oh, we had fun examining that one for veracity. (Taken straight out of the Gospel of Mark.) No basis for truth was ever found regarding this incident in India.
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Raf
Smacks of being made up.
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MRAP
waysider and Raf, you should not post one after the other: two green dudes with arm statements.
Ohh, the irony.
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Broken Arrow
He also was the one who had the original idea for fast food restaurants. Then he tried to give the idea to some Christian businessmen but they didn't have the believing to bring it into fruition. Then the idea was in the senses realm and the devil was able to counterfeit it.
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Rocky
Too many of us bought that BS.
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Broken Arrow
True. Too many of us bought too many Big Macs too, and have the indigestion to prove it.
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waysider
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MRAP
You gotta be kidding me Broken Arrow; I was on the field for nearly a month before we were allowed to have red meat, and sure enough, it was Big Mac (I was never much for Macdonalds person - Burger King rules) but that is where the rest of the family wanted to go. We all had digestion issues after that visit. Of course, I was a cheater since the first month on the field I worked at a HoJo's so ate scrambled eggs and ham eaach morning, for half price (good thing, that was all I could afford since the rest of the $ was for ABS and the family fund - the nearest I have experienced to living in communism). After that 1st month, went on to work as an automotive mechanic (I used to be one prior to that, could have used the scrambled eggs and ham for that job), thought that I could keep a bit more of that good $ for "my selfish self" - think again, into the family till. It may have bought us a few more nuts, dates and raisens for the familia, still no milk. Hope this is not off topic - it is, "Oh the Irony". To paraphrase Rocky, no BS in short supply, but it sure was expensive.
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