I was reading another thread on butt chewings and I felt a little guilty. I actually was never screamed at by anyone in TWI. I'm sorry for those of you who were. Maybe I was just lucky? But I have wondered if I got special treatment. I was a successful business owner and would ABS quite a bit. I was happy to do so because I got a LOT of good help and coaching from folks in my fellowship. A few very early Corps, for example. The same kind who were reamed and hated by LCM. Kind, wise folks who showed me genuine love.
I wasn't the only business person in our fellowship though. We had a few, all of whom did very well financially. I can't remember any of them getting the abusive treatment. Was this just where we were or did TWI make exceptions for people with $$$?
JT
It was my experience that The Way made special exceptions for anyone who had something that would benefit "The Ministry" (cough). It could be money, it could be a special skill, it could be celebrity. I can recall how we used to purposely target such people. I call it *Trophy Mentality*. I am very sorry I ever partook in such activities.
You were doing well because God was blessing you because of your believing, why would you need to be screamed at? Screaming is for reproof and correction. You clearly got the doctrine right, in Word and in practice.
You were doing well because God was blessing you because of your believing, why would you need to be screamed at? Screaming is for reproof and correction. You clearly got the doctrine right, in Word and in practice.
How could I have missed this. That's exactly the reason. You must have been perfectly manifesting all five "keys to receiving anything from God".
I heard Dr. Carolyn Rawlins got special treatment because of ABS. God may not be a respecter of persons, but people sure are. I'm sure other religions do the same thing.
I heard Dr. Carolyn Rawlins got special treatment because of ABS. God may not be a respecter of persons, but people sure are. I'm sure other religions do the same thing.
Yes, I'm sure other religions do this, as well. Then again, we're not really talking about what "other religions" do, are we?
Yeah, I remember my mother used to ask "If all your friends jumped off the bridge, would you jump, too?" I think it's what some people would call rationalization.
In our twig area no preferential treatment for people no matter how much they gave but I did notice that entering into the corps there was definitely preferential treatment given to those with plenty of moolah. One example was a family kicked out because of a child with some health issues but another well off couple when the husband developed slight pneumonia he was given something like 6 months to walk the grounds doing nothing except sighing lol can someone spell 'hypocricy'for me
In our twig area no preferential treatment for people no matter how much they gave but I did notice that entering into the corps there was definitely preferential treatment given to those with plenty of moolah. One example was a family kicked out because of a child with some health issues but another well off couple when the husband developed slight pneumonia he was given something like 6 months to walk the grounds doing nothing except sighing lol can someone spell 'hypocricy'for me
You may not have been asking for any reason other than posing a rhetorical question, but it actually is spelled H Y P O C R I S Y. :)
Yeah, I remember my mother used to ask "If all your friends jumped off the bridge, would you jump, too?" I think it's what some people would call rationalization.
Yes, I'm sure other religions do this, as well. Then again, we're not really talking about what "other religions" do, are we?
Sure we are! In 'Christians should be prosperous' VP said that the usual way of raising money for the church only mortgaged the church's conscience to its heavy givers. Perhaps he was more "usual" than he thought. Waysider you have his stuff memorized better than me; is that where that quote is from?
Sure we are! In 'Christians should be prosperous' VP said that the usual way of raising money for the church only mortgaged the church's conscience to its heavy givers. Perhaps he was more "usual" than he thought. Waysider you have his stuff memorized better than me; is that where that quote is from?
Yes, CSBP makes that statement on page 27. (I don't have it memorized, I'm looking at the pamphlet.)
That entire booklet (and remember, I have it right here for reference.) is about as unbiblical as it can get. The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God. It's outright propaganda in its finest form. You can't read more than a paragraph or two, on any page, before discovering something that is utter nonsense.
We have been through this tithing subject more times than I care to count. The booklet is just plain wrong. The very premise it presents is absolutely flawed. If anything, the booklet validates the concept of this discussion by demonstrating that The Way was not averse to granting favors in proportion to one's giving.
Pages seven through eleven state that tithing is this and tithing is that. All a bunch of rhetoric based on misrepresentation of the scriptures. Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself sometime.
For a group of people who prided ourselves on superior knowledge of the Bible, we really didn't know very much about it at all or we would have easily seen straight through this useless drivel.
Yes, CSBP makes that statement on page 27. (I don't have it memorized, I'm looking at the pamphlet.)
That entire booklet (and remember, I have it right here for reference.) is about as unbiblical as it can get. The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God. It's outright propaganda in its finest form. You can't read more than a paragraph or two, on any page, before discovering something that is utter nonsense.
We have been through this tithing subject more times than I care to count. The booklet is just plain wrong. The very premise it presents is absolutely flawed. If anything, the booklet validates the concept of this discussion by demonstrating that The Way was not averse to granting favors in proportion to one's giving.
Pages seven through eleven state that tithing is this and tithing is that. All a bunch of rhetoric based on misrepresentation of the scriptures. Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself sometime.
For a group of people who prided ourselves on superior knowledge of the Bible, we really didn't know very much about it at all or we would have easily seen straight through this useless drivel.
quote: The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God.
I've still got VPs books somewhere, but I'm not going to do an archaeological dig to find them. Somewhere in CSBP VP says that tithing without recognition of God's goodness is sheer folly. How does that convince me to give to twi?
Somewhere in CSBP VP says that tithing without recognition of God's goodness is sheer folly. How does that convince me to give to twi?
I don't recall - others may - that it was "in recognition of God's goodness" - more that it was a requirement to give to God. And as one cannot give directly to God, then to his ministers, his representatives, those that really are doing God's will now.
And 'cos somewhere in PFAL VPW convinced you that TWI was really the only place God was active today - "the first century church in the 20th" etc, and all churches are devil-ridden denominations.
quote: The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God.
I've still got VPs books somewhere, but I'm not going to do an archaeological dig to find them. Somewhere in CSBP VP says that tithing without recognition of God's goodness is sheer folly. How does that convince me to give to twi?
"The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers..."
How does this one isolated sentence convince the readers?
==========
There's an easy-to-understand difference between
"The purpose of this book is"
and
"Every sentence in this book specifically pushes the purpose of this book, which is"
This means that one can find individual sentences that don't push the purpose
of a book written with a purpose.
(If the entire Bible can be considered to have the purpose of the plan of salvation,
whole chapters can be found that don't point to it.)
CSBP, as a whole, WAS a booklet-long commercial designed to convince people that
A) they needed to give 10% of their income, according to God
(this has been proven false)
B) twi, as the best vehicle for giving to God, was the proper recipient of the
10% to give to God
More of twi's other stuff was pointed at "the giving goes to twi" than the booklet.
The booklet was primarily to convince people the giving was mandatory.
Lots of other things here and there were pointed at giving to twi specifically-
like vpw saying in twi that, instead of giving to other causes, why not give
to Bible research-and pausing with a small smile to make sure that set in,
and was viewed at the moment as a joke rather than part of the advertising
campaign in twigs and all other types of twi meetings.
But in twi, the special treatment for the wealthy and famous has been
well-documented. They were honored in manners unofficial and official.
They were introduced onstage at the ROA, and they were given WOW pins they
never earned, and so on. Even lcm objected to vpw bringing a judge onstage
at an ROA who was considered prideful- but he was influential. And some
rank-and-file resented Tony Collins of the New England Patriots getting
awarded a WOW pin by vpw personally despite never entering the WOW program.
vpw invented some spin about him actually being a WOW while at work
despite never actually fulfilling any requirements of the program.
Even the innies at the time who heard of it objected, because it was a
I don't recall - others may - that it was "in recognition of God's goodness" - more that it was a requirement to give to God. And as one cannot give directly to God, then to his ministers, his representatives, those that really are doing God's will now.
And 'cos somewhere in PFAL VPW convinced you that TWI was really the only place God was active today - "the first century church in the 20th" etc, and all churches are devil-ridden denominations.
That was also in the collateral readings- like "the First Century Church in the 20th"
and so on. The actual pushing during pfal wasn't quite so heavy- vpw had to bait the
hook first, and hide the net. pfal references to it were a bit subtle. That's why
vpw said in pfal he dedicated his life to that field, but didn't say there-to the
new people- that he claimed God Almighty spoke to him and that he was privy to
the First Century Church like nobody else was, and based twi on it. That was covered
later, informally.
"In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird."
So, the heavy advertisements were snuck in later. The early ads were subtle and
designed to "get in under the radar." Blatant stuff would have tipped off too many
people during pfal. As it was, a LOT of people took pfal and left within 3 or 6
months of having taken it. That's one way twi inflated their numbers and convinced
people that there were huge numbers of members- they counted everyone who signed up
and paid for pfal, whether or not they finished it, stuck around after, or even made
it to Session 1. (When I took it the first time, 8 of us were signed up, 7 made it
to Session 1, and 3 of us completed Session 12. All 8 were counted equally in
twi "statistics.")
Even the drones had a purpose in twi, and a purpose was found for those who stopped
attending, but the rich, famous or influential, those vpw made a special effort to
TWI taught about the different administrations and that different things applied to each one. We were taught that we are in the grace adminstration and the OT law no longer applied. Yet, we were taught to tithe and more even though there is no tithe in the grace period. It was justified in CSBP by saying we should go over and above what the OT requires. (If that's the case, should we be sacrificing horses and cats and dogs as well as sheep and rams? - over and above, you know) They contradicted their own administration teaching in order to rake in the dough.
It has been said that at the time of CSBP was written, VP was confronted about not imposing the tithe on the believers but did not heed the exhortation. Thus, we in the grace administratin were put in bondage under the law, which Galations says we shouldn't be.
There is also a flip side to this coin. People who didn't give the expected amount to *the ministry* (cough) were written off as dead weight. I have posted my personal experience with this very recently.
There is also a flip side to this coin. People who didn't give the expected amount to *the ministry* (cough) were written off as dead weight. I have posted my personal experience with this very recently.
Exactly. My understanding was that very few people gave even 10%. Maybe they aimed for more than 10% but took what they could.
I heard Dr. Carolyn Rawlins got special treatment because of ABS. God may not be a respecter of persons, but people sure are. I'm sure other religions do the same thing.
She might have been a big abundant sharer. I knew of a number of people who traveled to her practice. Her methods were "different", to say the least. But she was a doctor. Most of my early associations with TWI were with people who were in school or recently graduated with advanced degrees in medicine, dentistry, and law - and yes - we were treated well. But then again, people who are that career driven have a tendency to be able to say no, or I'm not interested.
Regarding other religions - maybe you mean denominations - it is different. Who gives what is not common knowledge. The vast majority of adults in our congregation are professionals with college degrees. Our budget is nearly $2 million a year - and our church is not large - average attendance is around 750 a week.
I heard Dr. Carolyn Rawlins got special treatment because of ABS. God may not be a respecter of persons, but people sure are. I'm sure other religions do the same thing.
O.K., what is ABS? To me it is the American Breeders Society (located just north of Madison, WI), only a farm boy like me would make that mistake.
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waysider
It was my experience that The Way made special exceptions for anyone who had something that would benefit "The Ministry" (cough). It could be money, it could be a special skill, it could be celebrity. I can recall how we used to purposely target such people. I call it *Trophy Mentality*. I am very sorry I ever partook in such activities.
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Bolshevik
You were doing well because God was blessing you because of your believing, why would you need to be screamed at? Screaming is for reproof and correction. You clearly got the doctrine right, in Word and in practice.
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waysider
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johniam
I heard Dr. Carolyn Rawlins got special treatment because of ABS. God may not be a respecter of persons, but people sure are. I'm sure other religions do the same thing.
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waysider
Yes, I'm sure other religions do this, as well. Then again, we're not really talking about what "other religions" do, are we?
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WordWolf
The idea was to suggest that EVERYBODY does it (which is not true),
then suggest that twi get a free pass about it because everybody does it
(although it would still be wrong even if everyone did it.)
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waysider
Yeah, I remember my mother used to ask "If all your friends jumped off the bridge, would you jump, too?" I think it's what some people would call rationalization.
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Allan
In our twig area no preferential treatment for people no matter how much they gave but I did notice that entering into the corps there was definitely preferential treatment given to those with plenty of moolah. One example was a family kicked out because of a child with some health issues but another well off couple when the husband developed slight pneumonia he was given something like 6 months to walk the grounds doing nothing except sighing lol can someone spell 'hypocricy'for me
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Rocky
You may not have been asking for any reason other than posing a rhetorical question, but it actually is spelled H Y P O C R I S Y. :)
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Allan
ummmm, that spelling must be from the twi version dictionary
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outandabout
My mother used to say that too!
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johniam
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waysider
Yes, CSBP makes that statement on page 27. (I don't have it memorized, I'm looking at the pamphlet.)
That entire booklet (and remember, I have it right here for reference.) is about as unbiblical as it can get. The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God. It's outright propaganda in its finest form. You can't read more than a paragraph or two, on any page, before discovering something that is utter nonsense.
We have been through this tithing subject more times than I care to count. The booklet is just plain wrong. The very premise it presents is absolutely flawed. If anything, the booklet validates the concept of this discussion by demonstrating that The Way was not averse to granting favors in proportion to one's giving.
Pages seven through eleven state that tithing is this and tithing is that. All a bunch of rhetoric based on misrepresentation of the scriptures. Don't take my word for it, read it for yourself sometime.
For a group of people who prided ourselves on superior knowledge of the Bible, we really didn't know very much about it at all or we would have easily seen straight through this useless drivel.
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Rocky
It also was "enchantment."
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johniam
quote: The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers they must give their hard earned money to The Way in order to receive the blessings of God.
I've still got VPs books somewhere, but I'm not going to do an archaeological dig to find them. Somewhere in CSBP VP says that tithing without recognition of God's goodness is sheer folly. How does that convince me to give to twi?
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Twinky
I don't recall - others may - that it was "in recognition of God's goodness" - more that it was a requirement to give to God. And as one cannot give directly to God, then to his ministers, his representatives, those that really are doing God's will now.
And 'cos somewhere in PFAL VPW convinced you that TWI was really the only place God was active today - "the first century church in the 20th" etc, and all churches are devil-ridden denominations.
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WordWolf
"The whole purpose of that booklet is to convince the readers..."
How does this one isolated sentence convince the readers?
==========
There's an easy-to-understand difference between
"The purpose of this book is"
and
"Every sentence in this book specifically pushes the purpose of this book, which is"
This means that one can find individual sentences that don't push the purpose
of a book written with a purpose.
(If the entire Bible can be considered to have the purpose of the plan of salvation,
whole chapters can be found that don't point to it.)
CSBP, as a whole, WAS a booklet-long commercial designed to convince people that
A) they needed to give 10% of their income, according to God
(this has been proven false)
B) twi, as the best vehicle for giving to God, was the proper recipient of the
10% to give to God
More of twi's other stuff was pointed at "the giving goes to twi" than the booklet.
The booklet was primarily to convince people the giving was mandatory.
Lots of other things here and there were pointed at giving to twi specifically-
like vpw saying in twi that, instead of giving to other causes, why not give
to Bible research-and pausing with a small smile to make sure that set in,
and was viewed at the moment as a joke rather than part of the advertising
campaign in twigs and all other types of twi meetings.
But in twi, the special treatment for the wealthy and famous has been
well-documented. They were honored in manners unofficial and official.
They were introduced onstage at the ROA, and they were given WOW pins they
never earned, and so on. Even lcm objected to vpw bringing a judge onstage
at an ROA who was considered prideful- but he was influential. And some
rank-and-file resented Tony Collins of the New England Patriots getting
awarded a WOW pin by vpw personally despite never entering the WOW program.
vpw invented some spin about him actually being a WOW while at work
despite never actually fulfilling any requirements of the program.
Even the innies at the time who heard of it objected, because it was a
blatant example of "respect of persons."
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WordWolf
That was also in the collateral readings- like "the First Century Church in the 20th"
and so on. The actual pushing during pfal wasn't quite so heavy- vpw had to bait the
hook first, and hide the net. pfal references to it were a bit subtle. That's why
vpw said in pfal he dedicated his life to that field, but didn't say there-to the
new people- that he claimed God Almighty spoke to him and that he was privy to
the First Century Church like nobody else was, and based twi on it. That was covered
later, informally.
"In vain is the net spread in sight of any bird."
So, the heavy advertisements were snuck in later. The early ads were subtle and
designed to "get in under the radar." Blatant stuff would have tipped off too many
people during pfal. As it was, a LOT of people took pfal and left within 3 or 6
months of having taken it. That's one way twi inflated their numbers and convinced
people that there were huge numbers of members- they counted everyone who signed up
and paid for pfal, whether or not they finished it, stuck around after, or even made
it to Session 1. (When I took it the first time, 8 of us were signed up, 7 made it
to Session 1, and 3 of us completed Session 12. All 8 were counted equally in
twi "statistics.")
Even the drones had a purpose in twi, and a purpose was found for those who stopped
attending, but the rich, famous or influential, those vpw made a special effort to
court, both locally and at events like the ROA.
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outandabout
TWI taught about the different administrations and that different things applied to each one. We were taught that we are in the grace adminstration and the OT law no longer applied. Yet, we were taught to tithe and more even though there is no tithe in the grace period. It was justified in CSBP by saying we should go over and above what the OT requires. (If that's the case, should we be sacrificing horses and cats and dogs as well as sheep and rams? - over and above, you know) They contradicted their own administration teaching in order to rake in the dough.
It has been said that at the time of CSBP was written, VP was confronted about not imposing the tithe on the believers but did not heed the exhortation. Thus, we in the grace administratin were put in bondage under the law, which Galations says we shouldn't be.
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waysider
The OT didn't *require* it. How do you go above and beyond something that's not required in the first place?
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waysider
There is also a flip side to this coin. People who didn't give the expected amount to *the ministry* (cough) were written off as dead weight. I have posted my personal experience with this very recently.
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JustThinking
Exactly. My understanding was that very few people gave even 10%. Maybe they aimed for more than 10% but took what they could.
JT
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Tzaia
She might have been a big abundant sharer. I knew of a number of people who traveled to her practice. Her methods were "different", to say the least. But she was a doctor. Most of my early associations with TWI were with people who were in school or recently graduated with advanced degrees in medicine, dentistry, and law - and yes - we were treated well. But then again, people who are that career driven have a tendency to be able to say no, or I'm not interested.
Regarding other religions - maybe you mean denominations - it is different. Who gives what is not common knowledge. The vast majority of adults in our congregation are professionals with college degrees. Our budget is nearly $2 million a year - and our church is not large - average attendance is around 750 a week.
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MRAP
O.K., what is ABS? To me it is the American Breeders Society (located just north of Madison, WI), only a farm boy like me would make that mistake.
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