When I left it was still growing or, at least, that was the perception I had at the time. So, no, I didn't have any bearing on my experience, aside, perhaps, that I felt guilty for no longer promoting it..
When my parents were first involved (and by relation, me) we had a lot of new people. It was a fun, exciting time. Our fellowship grew so large we had people sitting in our loft that overlooked our living room, and more in the kitchen because we didn't have enough room.
And we grew so big HQ decided we needed Way Corps.
And that effectively ended the growth and we lost most of the people in the branch. it was the same where I went WOW. We had growth until they moved the Limb to our town.
Once legalism and confrontation showed up in the form of the WC, people lost their enthusiasm and left.
When my parents were first involved (and by relation, me) we had a lot of new people. It was a fun, exciting time. Our fellowship grew so large we had people sitting in our loft that overlooked our living room, and more in the kitchen because we didn't have enough room.
And we grew so big HQ decided we needed Way Corps.
And that effectively ended the growth and we lost most of the people in the branch. it was the same where I went WOW. We had growth until they moved the Limb to our town.
Once legalism and confrontation showed up in the form of the WC, people lost their enthusiasm and left.
IIRC,
someone once posted about that.
The experience was common enough that a slang term was coined for it:
"STUMP COORDINATOR."
That was a person (generally corps) who was put in charge of an area, and effectively killed it off.
==================================
As for me,
NYC was an area targeted for growth, which it did.
Before I ever heard of twi, they'd sent a lot of people to NYC in a few areas,
and ran then through classes as fast as they could get them.
That's how we ended up with a lot of Intermediate Class grads, and people
"qualified" to run a twig. We had a Corps grad assigned as the Territory Coordinator,
and everyone else was just us schmoes. I heard of things right after vpw died-
which is when HQ was stumbling through things, and that was actually a great time
to show up, since the locals were left alone for a few years while HQ and all the
Corps and leadership hashed out all the craziness with POP and so on.
We actually had steady growth during that time, and "my" Territory effectively
went to 1/2 its geographical area, since it grew enough that it was split.
Where it was previously labelled as 2 counties, each county was made into a
separate Territory.
Then 1989 came, and lcm demanded an oath of loyalty to himself personally,
to follow him blindly (he confirmed to a poster once, who knew him, that this
was exactly what he was expecting from this oath of allegiance- to
"follow him blindly." Altogether, about 80% of twi left within a timeframe
of about a year. In the case of NYC, most of us left together and kept on meeting
locally and doing stuff- just without lcm's approval.
After that, twi had continued to hemorrhage members until now it's almost nonexistent,
and those of us who left locally actually increased in numbers for a few years,
but too much of the stereotypical Corps stuff plus weirdness from Gartmore plus
weirdness from the "Limb Coordinator"(State Coordinator) eventually meant that a lot
of us just wandered off, sick and tired of being sick and tired.
My wife and I left NY in 1989, and I agree with WW that things were still happening up until then.
When we moved to our new home, we tried to hook up with twigs in the area. Here, there were already some divisions among folk. More to the point, we weren't exactly welcomed with open arms, since we were coming from an area that was under V!nce F!nneg@n's influence. We were guilty by association.
We exited quietly, never really being fully aware of all the stuff happening around HQ.
But back to the original question, when we were first involved (mid '70's) we were told there was nothing to 'join'. IIRC we 'freely availed' ourselves of the fellowship of 'like-mined believers'. Up until the early '80's we had a lot of growth. The branch put on a coffee house a few times a year, and they were always great draws for new folk - lots of local TWI musical talent and a PFAL push. As things grew and more WC came into the area, the coffee houses died out and and only big gatherings were sanctioned - often with guests from the Limb or HQ. By that time - it seemed to me that the number of new folks was starting to dry up.
I was a NYer who got involved in the late 70's - Mr. Fallon and I were in the same Foundational Class together - although I never went back after leaving to "go WOW" in 1980.
It always seemed to be growing those first few years before I moved. There were a couple of branches in each of the counties on Long Island (3 for a time in Queens) and a small Spanish language branch as well. There were regular classes and Twigs scattered over a pretty wide area. The Way Home that I lived in used to pack 'em in for our Sunday 10:00 Fellowship (which we perversely had at 10PM! But, and here's the big but...few or no Way Corps grads.
The Area (later called a Territory) was run by an interim Corps couple and later Corps grads, but all 8 or 9 branches were run by non-Corps, and in at least one case, by a non-Advanced Class grad. Can't say much about what happened after, but rumors reached me out West that it just wasn't the same when more control from above in the form of Way Corps started taking over the branches and later the twigs
The experience was common enough that a slang term was coined for it:
"STUMP COORDINATOR."
That was a person (generally corps) who was put in charge of an area, and effectively killed it off.
Oh, that is good!!! WordWolf, I wish I had that term 20 years ago. Stump Coordinator! It describes exactly what I saw again and again. Even a few who meant well but had no real natural leadership ability. No charisma. Unlike many here, most of my Corps were actually decent to me. Or maybe more they were harmless. Not that they didn't try to do the whole "Craig being tough" bit but it was more funny than scary. Think Barney Fife not John Wayne. Not all though. One or two were creepy (including the one who slept with my wife and several others). A few were even admirable. But those got booted early in Craig's time.
But the result was never MORE people. It got to the point where we were told to split a six person twig to give the next incoming stump coordinator his own. No kidding. He took over my twig, told HQ he split it in just two months, and gave me half back. Instant growth!! He kicked someone out during that time so we were actually back to six. The funny thing is TWI then recorded us as a growing area and he eventually got promoted to limb coordinator!!!!
When I got in, which was in 1975, it was exciting, it was growing. Twigs were wonderful. They were full of love and acceptance. I ran a twig and we had coffeehouses in our house and it was packed, I mean packed, you couldn't always find a place to sit. There were people on the floor, on the porch. But, then came the "leadership" and it was like they stepped into "God's Shoes" Instead of God being the last word on things, they were. Needless to say, all those wonderful, good things started decreasing and being replaced by "Things you need to do to be spiritual".....it became a "works" thing.
I was a twig leader in a city in the south after a corp couple left and the fellowship doubled like to about 25 or so.....well the "leadership" decided to bring in a corps person and they split the fellowship....he got 19 of them and I got 6 people. You can get the drift of that....
I have to say I know some corps that were absolutely wonderful.....my branch leader on my wow year was one of them.....really tuned into God and it was a time of love and grace. We had lots of growth.
When I got in, which was in 1975, it was exciting, it was growing. Twigs were wonderful. They were full of love and acceptance. I ran a twig and we had coffeehouses in our house and it was packed, I mean packed, you couldn't always find a place to sit. There were people on the floor, on the porch. But, then came the "leadership" and it was like they stepped into "God's Shoes" Instead of God being the last word on things, they were. Needless to say, all those wonderful, good things started decreasing and being replaced by "Things you need to do to be spiritual".....it became a "works" thing.
I was a twig leader in a city in the south after a corp couple left and the fellowship doubled like to about 25 or so.....well the "leadership" decided to bring in a corps person and they split the fellowship....he got 19 of them and I got 6 people. You can get the drift of that....
I have to say I know some corps that were absolutely wonderful.....my branch leader on my wow year was one of them.....really tuned into God and it was a time of love and grace. We had lots of growth.
My experience......
Probably came into the Corps with those traits. I can guarantee you it wasn't imparted to him/her.
But the result was never MORE people. It got to the point where we were told to split a six person twig to give the next incoming stump coordinator his own. No kidding. He took over my twig, told HQ he split it in just two months, and gave me half back. Instant growth!! :rolleyes:/> He kicked someone out during that time so we were actually back to six. The funny thing is TWI then recorded us as a growing area and he eventually got promoted to limb coordinator!!!!
JT
Oh yeah...fake growth! An outgoing Limb Coordinator had us split five anemic twigs into ten that were on life support and called it a branch and a "twig area". The incoming Coordinator thought he was coming to take over a thriving, growing area...surprise! With the people leaving to go WOW, into the Corps or back to wherever they came from before going WOW, we were back down to three or four twigs in short order. This was in the eighties.
Then in the early 2000's we had to maintain two twigs in town that had barely enough adults for one because Martindale mandated that all Way Corps on the field had to be "leaders of tens" which he interpreted to mean two or more twigs.
Back in the early 1970's there was actual growth taking place in Cleveland. Despite that, the phony "twig split" thing still took place, making it appear that a branch had grown from X twigs to X2 twigs. Looking back, I think some of that may have been the result of local leaders trying to pad their resumes to ensure acceptance into the Corps. (The Corps was new at that time so just being accepted into the program was seen as a major personal accomplishment.)
The work ethic of a believer was supposed to be superior to any worldly person. Especially with the unique spiritual insight into things such as car engines.
Corps doctored their resumes?
"Doctor" Wierwille. He WAS a doctor . . . just not the type you initially thought.
There's varying perspectives of TWI here I'm trying to navigate. One thought I've had is that, in my experience, people almost never "joined" TWI. People left. When witnessing, you were more likely to knock on the door of a few people who had previously had experience with TWI (and they'd let you know it), then ever find someone interested in checking it out.
My guess is that most posters here saw the days when new people would come to fellowship and that was normal.
I bet many saw both. I know a number of people, in my experience, who'd stop coming to fellowship, and then when asked, would say they didn't want to come anymore because "It's not the same anymore".
Based on that, times of growth vs times of attrition, does anyone know if that affected their own personal experience with TWI in a significant way?
Depends on your perspective, and place and time.
vpw used to claim 100,000 members. That was based on a supposed number of
100,000 total who ever signed up for pfal.
That neglects that some who signed up for pfal
never showed up for Session 1.
That neglects that some who showed up for Session 1
never showed up for Session 12.
That neglects that some who showed up for Session 12
weren't around within 3 months of completion.
When I took it, IIRC, there were 7 signed up, and 3
of us finished it, although all of us stuck around.
(Me, the wife of a coordinator, and the son of a coordinator.)
The times of the greatest growth were also the times of greatest attrition-
not counting the exodi- because we had a lot of "member churn."
People showed up, stayed a while, then left. If my class was any
indication, and my experience later supports that-
then many people showed up for a month or a year and were gone within 6
months or 2-3 years. So, the numbers of new faces was often high,
and the numbers of old faces were less than 1/2 the room.
Nowadays, that's totally changed. ANY new faces is news, or the result
of staging an 'event', dragging in every body within miles,
then saying "see-we can fill a room when we want to".
What I heard back in the late-'80s was that even though there may have been 100,000 people who had a tangential experience of PFAL, there was never more than about 30,000 people "standing" at any given time. This was based on info from people who went on to form offshoots.
What I heard back in the late-'80s was that even though there may have been 100,000 people who had a tangential experience of PFAL, there was never more than about 30,000 people "standing" at any given time. This was based on info from people who went on to form offshoots.
Love,
Steve
The rule of thumb I heard was to double the attendance# of any ROA
to get the total# of adherents at that time.
I heard the largest ROA had an attendance of 14,000, which
doubles to 28,000, which is about 30,000 adherents "standing"
at that time, and that was the apex of attendance.
(Numbers went up to that # for 1 year, and fell thereafter
Back in the early 1970's there was actual growth taking place in Cleveland. Despite that, the phony "twig split" thing still took place, making it appear that a branch had grown from X twigs to X2 twigs. Looking back, I think some of that may have been the result of local leaders trying to pad their resumes to ensure acceptance into the Corps. (The Corps was new at that time so just being accepted into the program was seen as a major personal accomplishment.)
Yeah, I remember that guy who came into Cleveland and the area supposedly doubled within some phenomenal amount of time. He was held up as an example of what could happen if you just had the believing. It was later that I heard in a leader's meeting that all he did was double the amount of "twigs". Some amazing growth guru, eh? Soon after he went back to where he came from.
Yeah, I remember that guy who came into Cleveland and the area supposedly doubled within some phenomenal amount of time. He was held up as an example of what could happen if you just had the believing. It was later that I heard in a leader's meeting that all he did was double the amount of "twigs". Some amazing growth guru, eh? Soon after he went back to where he came from.
There's twi, and there's making sense.
Sensibly, twi should have left groups intact until there were more than 8 regular
attendees plus new arrivals. Then they should have considered how to make a
division so you had at least 4 regular attendees plus new arrivals.
As it was, the appearance of growth was more important, and other appearances
were more important, so they made all sorts of decisions that didn't work so
they had the appearance of doing something. Splitting already small "twigs"
up meant neither was sustainable, so they either had to re-form or BOTH were
destroyed in the process. I saw a corps assignee once arrive, then arbitrarily
decide he was going to have a "twig" right where he was operating from, so he
began assigning some locals to it to start attending it. There were a number of
ways to handle it, but I'm sure he picked one of the least-successful ones
so that it looked like he was doing stuff. (He got people to smile and nod a lot
Witnessing was, in essence, an advertising campaign for PFAL. The Witnessing and Undershepharding class explicitly states that "The purpose of witnessing is to get people into the Power For Abundant Living Class." If I had my syllabus here, I could give you the exact page where that's stated. So, clearly, from the corporation's viewpoint, growth was measured by new sales/enrollments. When that growth was not taking place, TWI redefined the meaning of growth by cooking the books.
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waysider
When I left it was still growing or, at least, that was the perception I had at the time. So, no, I didn't have any bearing on my experience, aside, perhaps, that I felt guilty for no longer promoting it..
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JavaJane
When my parents were first involved (and by relation, me) we had a lot of new people. It was a fun, exciting time. Our fellowship grew so large we had people sitting in our loft that overlooked our living room, and more in the kitchen because we didn't have enough room.
And we grew so big HQ decided we needed Way Corps.
And that effectively ended the growth and we lost most of the people in the branch. it was the same where I went WOW. We had growth until they moved the Limb to our town.
Once legalism and confrontation showed up in the form of the WC, people lost their enthusiasm and left.
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WordWolf
IIRC,
someone once posted about that.
The experience was common enough that a slang term was coined for it:
"STUMP COORDINATOR."
That was a person (generally corps) who was put in charge of an area, and effectively killed it off.
==================================
As for me,
NYC was an area targeted for growth, which it did.
Before I ever heard of twi, they'd sent a lot of people to NYC in a few areas,
and ran then through classes as fast as they could get them.
That's how we ended up with a lot of Intermediate Class grads, and people
"qualified" to run a twig. We had a Corps grad assigned as the Territory Coordinator,
and everyone else was just us schmoes. I heard of things right after vpw died-
which is when HQ was stumbling through things, and that was actually a great time
to show up, since the locals were left alone for a few years while HQ and all the
Corps and leadership hashed out all the craziness with POP and so on.
We actually had steady growth during that time, and "my" Territory effectively
went to 1/2 its geographical area, since it grew enough that it was split.
Where it was previously labelled as 2 counties, each county was made into a
separate Territory.
Then 1989 came, and lcm demanded an oath of loyalty to himself personally,
to follow him blindly (he confirmed to a poster once, who knew him, that this
was exactly what he was expecting from this oath of allegiance- to
"follow him blindly." Altogether, about 80% of twi left within a timeframe
of about a year. In the case of NYC, most of us left together and kept on meeting
locally and doing stuff- just without lcm's approval.
After that, twi had continued to hemorrhage members until now it's almost nonexistent,
and those of us who left locally actually increased in numbers for a few years,
but too much of the stereotypical Corps stuff plus weirdness from Gartmore plus
weirdness from the "Limb Coordinator"(State Coordinator) eventually meant that a lot
of us just wandered off, sick and tired of being sick and tired.
So, that's how it affected me.
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Kevin Fallon
My wife and I left NY in 1989, and I agree with WW that things were still happening up until then.
When we moved to our new home, we tried to hook up with twigs in the area. Here, there were already some divisions among folk. More to the point, we weren't exactly welcomed with open arms, since we were coming from an area that was under V!nce F!nneg@n's influence. We were guilty by association.
We exited quietly, never really being fully aware of all the stuff happening around HQ.
But back to the original question, when we were first involved (mid '70's) we were told there was nothing to 'join'. IIRC we 'freely availed' ourselves of the fellowship of 'like-mined believers'. Up until the early '80's we had a lot of growth. The branch put on a coffee house a few times a year, and they were always great draws for new folk - lots of local TWI musical talent and a PFAL push. As things grew and more WC came into the area, the coffee houses died out and and only big gatherings were sanctioned - often with guests from the Limb or HQ. By that time - it seemed to me that the number of new folks was starting to dry up.
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Oakspear
I was a NYer who got involved in the late 70's - Mr. Fallon and I were in the same Foundational Class together - although I never went back after leaving to "go WOW" in 1980.
It always seemed to be growing those first few years before I moved. There were a couple of branches in each of the counties on Long Island (3 for a time in Queens) and a small Spanish language branch as well. There were regular classes and Twigs scattered over a pretty wide area. The Way Home that I lived in used to pack 'em in for our Sunday 10:00 Fellowship (which we perversely had at 10PM! But, and here's the big but...few or no Way Corps grads.
The Area (later called a Territory) was run by an interim Corps couple and later Corps grads, but all 8 or 9 branches were run by non-Corps, and in at least one case, by a non-Advanced Class grad. Can't say much about what happened after, but rumors reached me out West that it just wasn't the same when more control from above in the form of Way Corps started taking over the branches and later the twigs
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JustThinking
Oh, that is good!!! WordWolf, I wish I had that term 20 years ago. Stump Coordinator!
It describes exactly what I saw again and again. Even a few who meant well but had no real natural leadership ability. No charisma. Unlike many here, most of my Corps were actually decent to me. Or maybe more they were harmless. Not that they didn't try to do the whole "Craig being tough" bit but it was more funny than scary. Think Barney Fife not John Wayne. Not all though. One or two were creepy (including the one who slept with my wife and several others). A few were even admirable. But those got booted early in Craig's time.
But the result was never MORE people. It got to the point where we were told to split a six person twig to give the next incoming stump coordinator his own. No kidding. He took over my twig, told HQ he split it in just two months, and gave me half back. Instant growth!!
He kicked someone out during that time so we were actually back to six. The funny thing is TWI then recorded us as a growing area and he eventually got promoted to limb coordinator!!!!
JT
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newlife
Good topic!
When I got in, which was in 1975, it was exciting, it was growing. Twigs were wonderful. They were full of love and acceptance. I ran a twig and we had coffeehouses in our house and it was packed, I mean packed, you couldn't always find a place to sit. There were people on the floor, on the porch. But, then came the "leadership" and it was like they stepped into "God's Shoes" Instead of God being the last word on things, they were. Needless to say, all those wonderful, good things started decreasing and being replaced by "Things you need to do to be spiritual".....it became a "works" thing.
I was a twig leader in a city in the south after a corp couple left and the fellowship doubled like to about 25 or so.....well the "leadership" decided to bring in a corps person and they split the fellowship....he got 19 of them and I got 6 people. You can get the drift of that....
I have to say I know some corps that were absolutely wonderful.....my branch leader on my wow year was one of them.....really tuned into God and it was a time of love and grace. We had lots of growth.
My experience......
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Broken Arrow
Probably came into the Corps with those traits. I can guarantee you it wasn't imparted to him/her.
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Oakspear
Then in the early 2000's we had to maintain two twigs in town that had barely enough adults for one because Martindale mandated that all Way Corps on the field had to be "leaders of tens" which he interpreted to mean two or more twigs.
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waysider
Back in the early 1970's there was actual growth taking place in Cleveland. Despite that, the phony "twig split" thing still took place, making it appear that a branch had grown from X twigs to X2 twigs. Looking back, I think some of that may have been the result of local leaders trying to pad their resumes to ensure acceptance into the Corps. (The Corps was new at that time so just being accepted into the program was seen as a major personal accomplishment.)
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Bolshevik
The work ethic of a believer was supposed to be superior to any worldly person. Especially with the unique spiritual insight into things such as car engines.
Corps doctored their resumes?
"Doctor" Wierwille. He WAS a doctor . . . just not the type you initially thought.
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WordWolf
Depends on your perspective, and place and time.
vpw used to claim 100,000 members. That was based on a supposed number of
100,000 total who ever signed up for pfal.
That neglects that some who signed up for pfal
never showed up for Session 1.
That neglects that some who showed up for Session 1
never showed up for Session 12.
That neglects that some who showed up for Session 12
weren't around within 3 months of completion.
When I took it, IIRC, there were 7 signed up, and 3
of us finished it, although all of us stuck around.
(Me, the wife of a coordinator, and the son of a coordinator.)
The times of the greatest growth were also the times of greatest attrition-
not counting the exodi- because we had a lot of "member churn."
People showed up, stayed a while, then left. If my class was any
indication, and my experience later supports that-
then many people showed up for a month or a year and were gone within 6
months or 2-3 years. So, the numbers of new faces was often high,
and the numbers of old faces were less than 1/2 the room.
Nowadays, that's totally changed. ANY new faces is news, or the result
of staging an 'event', dragging in every body within miles,
then saying "see-we can fill a room when we want to".
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Steve Lortz
What I heard back in the late-'80s was that even though there may have been 100,000 people who had a tangential experience of PFAL, there was never more than about 30,000 people "standing" at any given time. This was based on info from people who went on to form offshoots.
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
The rule of thumb I heard was to double the attendance# of any ROA
to get the total# of adherents at that time.
I heard the largest ROA had an attendance of 14,000, which
doubles to 28,000, which is about 30,000 adherents "standing"
at that time, and that was the apex of attendance.
(Numbers went up to that # for 1 year, and fell thereafter
starting the next year.)
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Broken Arrow
Yeah, I remember that guy who came into Cleveland and the area supposedly doubled within some phenomenal amount of time. He was held up as an example of what could happen if you just had the believing. It was later that I heard in a leader's meeting that all he did was double the amount of "twigs". Some amazing growth guru, eh? Soon after he went back to where he came from.
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WordWolf
There's twi, and there's making sense.
Sensibly, twi should have left groups intact until there were more than 8 regular
attendees plus new arrivals. Then they should have considered how to make a
division so you had at least 4 regular attendees plus new arrivals.
As it was, the appearance of growth was more important, and other appearances
were more important, so they made all sorts of decisions that didn't work so
they had the appearance of doing something. Splitting already small "twigs"
up meant neither was sustainable, so they either had to re-form or BOTH were
destroyed in the process. I saw a corps assignee once arrive, then arbitrarily
decide he was going to have a "twig" right where he was operating from, so he
began assigning some locals to it to start attending it. There were a number of
ways to handle it, but I'm sure he picked one of the least-successful ones
so that it looked like he was doing stuff. (He got people to smile and nod a lot
until he left.)
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waysider
Thus, following TWI logic, growth = attrition.
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Broken Arrow
Yeah, they even taught that in "The Way Tree" seminar. They just didn't do it.
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WordWolf
twi's had a "do as I say, not as I do" policy from the beginning.
Every once in a while, vpw said something publicly about fidelity,
and the rest of the time was into encouraging infidelity-especially if
it was with him-and covering his tracks.
vpw made a passing comment buries in "The Way-Living in Love" that
what he taught wasn't original, but putting it together that way was.
A few people seem to think his comment that one time, buried in one
book many twi'ers never even HELD IN THEIR HANDS was the same as giving
proper accreditation to all the material he blatantly plagiarized.
(Anyone who wants to see how that would work should look over an old copy
of "Babylon Mystery Religion." It was a reworking of the public domain
book "The Two Babylons" and it was completely credited properly throughout
the entire book. And most people aren't even AWARE of it unless LOOKING for
it, so there goes the notion that doing so would be intrusive or distracting.) )
But, yes, twi often had sensible things to say in public- and the privately
instructed people to do the opposite when the microphones were off.
It's obvious now. It fooled us somewhat back then, but with the bright lights
shining on the dirty secrets now, only the vpw fanatic or the twi fanatic
can think it's anything other than obvious in hindsight.
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waysider
Witnessing was, in essence, an advertising campaign for PFAL. The Witnessing and Undershepharding class explicitly states that "The purpose of witnessing is to get people into the Power For Abundant Living Class." If I had my syllabus here, I could give you the exact page where that's stated. So, clearly, from the corporation's viewpoint, growth was measured by new sales/enrollments. When that growth was not taking place, TWI redefined the meaning of growth by cooking the books.
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