I should have added that, later, here at GSC, I learned that almost this exact scenario was being played out for the Way Corps at the same time.......It was all a pre-orchestrated performance.
Many things that happened didn't happen because we saw them through our own eyes.
I'm not clear on your meaning.
Are you saying the criteria that defined an incident as a butt chewing was our perception of it?
I have to disagree. You can give a butt chewing (or a motivational speech) to an inanimate object. It will not perceive anything. It's futile, sure, but that doesn't change the event.
I should have added that, later, here at GSC, I learned that almost this exact scenario was being played out for the Way Corps at the same time.......It was all a pre-orchestrated performance.
That's interesting. That's quite a level of awareness of manipulation by the manipulator. This was vpw's work?
This something I'd like to by able to distinguish. That awareness of the guilty party's manipulation, on a timeline.
Are you saying the criteria that defined an incident as a butt chewing was our perception of it?
I have to disagree. You can give a butt chewing (or a motivational speech) to an inanimate object. It will not perceive anything. It's futile, sure, but that doesn't change the event.
Actually I think we do agree.
Sometimes the worst part of a butt-chewing is that everyone who was there denies it ever happened.
It was in about 1976 or 1977. Wierwille was still fully in charge of The Way. Does that help?
Sure, thanks.
If we assume VPW was cognizant of his actions and understood the effects, how much does is that still a factor in today's leadership? Are today's leaders performing the same acts, out of the same motives, or simply out of blind and twisted imitation?
If we assume VPW was cognizant of his actions and understood the effects, how much does is that still a factor in today's leadership? Are today's leaders performing the same acts, out of the same motives, or simply out of blind and twisted imitation?
Most were subjected to the same kind of treatments. It's hard to imagine they haven't deduced the reality of what was happening. As to their motives, you would have to ask them.
I'm going to try to reduce this one to the basics.
In Fellowlaborers, we lived in an apartment complex in a small Ohio town. (We rented 8 townhouses that we called our *houses*.) We worked at Limb HQ, which was located in a rural setting about 30 minutes away. One night, in the middle of the night, 2/3 AM or so, we were awakened and told we had to be at Limb HQ for a special meeting in 20 minutes. Do the math....30 minute trip in 20 minutes. Of course we were all late. When we got there, we were ushered into the general meeting area, which was dark and silent. We were told not to talk among ourselves. So, all 50 or so of us sat there in silence, in the darkness, not knowing when the meeting would start or what it was about. When the limb leader finally arrived, he first chewed us out for being late and then proceeded to tell us the entire program was immediately cancelled. We were told that, because of our lack of believing, "Word Over The World" was destined for failure ...something about having a negative effect on Int. HQ because they were located so geographically near....huh? This kind of thing is devastating to people who have restructured their lives to be a part of the program.
So, we go back to our *houses* and decide to have one more 5:30AM morning fellowship before packing it in. We get to fellowship and are told everything has changed. Now we can continue with the program if we will commit ourselves to following directions from the MOG without question. I should have packed it in and left right then and there but I didn't.
And, that's the shortened, basic version.
Classic TWI technique. You are screwing up the whole thing! You! You're young, you're idealistic, and you have yourself fully invested in this. You're convinced (yech!) That the whole world needs this and then "bam!" Someone you respect comes along and says you are messing up the whole thing, and then kicks you out. Just as you're starting to resolve yourself to the situation they come back and say, "Wait! God has changed the revelation, you can stay!" Oh how thankful you are! You were screwing up the whole thing, but God and the ministry are "allowing" you to come back. Aren't they loving and forgiving and kind? You deserved excommunication, but they're "allowing" you back. You owe them everything, they owe you nothing.
The North Koreans and the Chinese did the same thing in the 1950's. You can also read about this same technique in George Orwell's novel 1984. It's effective if you're not aware of what's going on and if you're in a controlled environment.
I have a hard time believing that the leadership of TWI was smart enough to use these techniques on purpose. But when I hear stories like this, and think on similar situations where I was personally involved, I believe somebody knew what they were doing.
quote: Sounds like a typical in-rez Corps Coord trick. Get y'all together and then say you're not good enough and you will all be thrown out. Look sad or hurt by the pitiful bunch of [slaves] in front of you. Get them all ansty. Then "forgive" them and let them back, if they work harder/are more committed/drink more KoolAid.
I heard that the 6th way corps once had this happen. Several of them were threatened and some were actually kicked out, then the ones who weren't kicked out were told they could come back.
It seems to me there was a constant struggle in which, the top leaders wanted the standards and expectations of the way corps to be true out on the field as much as possible. But it never worked. Every so often a limb coordinator would give a serious as death teaching, or make you go to a limb meeting on New Years day or superbowl Sunday just to see who was really committed, but it didn't really change the morale or atmosphere on the field. At least, not where I ever was.
Over time, especially after the so called fog years, the top leaders figured out that if they were EVER going to achieve the result of meshing WC standards with life on the field, they would have to thin the herd severely. Enter the loyalty letter, the debt purge, the homo purge, the unproductive evil purge, (seems comical now), and, voila, life on the field was WORSE than the WC was when VP was alive. They had to go to twig three plus times per week, they had to account on paper for every 15 minute segment of their day, stuff like that. Reminds me of that bit in the book of Revelation where somebody is begging for death and it won't come; something like that.
But it STILL didn't work. All those people who bought that and tried to be obedient, thinking that eventually those of us who rejected it wound be on our knees in sackcloth and ashes begging for forgiveness, they themselves left twi and felt really stupid, especially when they would run into people like us. We were right after all, despite all the emphasis on loyalty to the ministry that taught you the word.
As for butt chewings? They are a natural biproduct of a strategy like that. (trying to force people on the field to act like people in leadership training)
"I heard that the 6th way corps once had this happen."
That's probably the same one that coincided with the FellowLaborer event.
While I don't think they were expertly skilled in manipulation techniques, I do think they deliberately designed and fabricated these two incidents. No one in that meeting had any idea what we could have possibly done that was so egregious. It was a heartbreaker. There were people there who had totally committed to the program, left holding the bag, in the middle of nowhere, hundreds of miles from home.
Well, you uncouth person, Jim. Definitely worthy of being hung, drawn and quartered. You got off lightly. :evilshades:/>
The "throw you all out" thing was standard fare. Wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was actually scheduled for about 3 or 4 months into every program. In rez, WD, WoW, whatever. Bloody fools, the lot of them. ...and us, too, for playing along.
My SUSPICION is that it was discovered BY ACCIDENT.
vpw was a LAZY student who cut corners and BS'ed his way through things,
and had an inflated sense of self.
(He shows signs of Sociopathy as well.)
We know he did this to the "Zero Corps."
He got mad at them and kicked the whole group out.
Then he turned around, and offered to let them return,
provided they rededicate themselves to him.
Many of them accepted this "offer."
So, I think vpw did that one out of pique, as an impulse,
then as covering his @$$ and getting them to pay tuition again.
Then he realized he could make this a financially successful
maneuver and worked out variations of it. This would then lead to
the versions we were talking about.
I don't know, but VPW did have a relative who once taught the Corps about the brainwashing techniques of the North Koreans.I was present at that meeting. The context of it for us was that was when deprogramming just started. This was the same relative who organized a "prison camp" for the 5th Corps once. The story is recorded by Karl Kahler in "The Cult that Snapped". I'm not sure how extensive this guy's knowledge was of brain washing techniques. We know, however, that he did the prison camp experiment with some Corps and we know he had served in the military. So maybe, just maybe, VPW did contrive the whole thing purposely. I guess it doesn't really matter if it was contrived or not. The result is still the same. Just food for thought.
In 1979, I somehow wound up running the state of CT bookstore for a year. I was required to not only run a table at every large event, but anytime someone in the state thought it would be nice to have the bookstore at their event. I was working a weird job at a doorknob factory by day,and always on call at night. It took 40 minutes to drive to HQ,then load up the car,drive wherever in CT they wanted me,do the event,drive back to HQ,re stock it all perfectly,do the finances,then drive home to get a few hours sleep before going to work. This was the years Joyful Noise was doing Take a Stand caravan,and of course I'd be selling the album.state leader Steve Str&$!pek gave me some orders as I set up. Apparently Vince F&nn&gan had other ideas,and thought I was disobeying him. He came by the table,yelled something I didn't understand at me, and glared like he really wanted to punch me in the face. Of course I was wrong for causing problems for Vince and was in a no win situation.
Not long after,I left work in a rainstorm to go to limb ,load up and go to far side of CT,for a class table. I was met at the door by an irate limb leader's wife who screamed at me for 10 minutes.i didn't know what I was getting yelled at for, it wasn't specific at all. That really set the night of driving in the rain,and getting hom at 1 am.
That August they asked me to do it for another year. It may be the only time I said no in 10 years.
. . . I guess it doesn't really matter if it was contrived or not. The result is still the same. Just food for thought.
If it wasn't all an accident, if it was malicious intent, then there's no need to try and "fix the ministry", to restore to VPW's "original intent", like so many have tried. Because that's generally the spin.
If it wasn't all an accident, if it was malicious intent, then there's no need to try and "fix the ministry", to restore to VPW's "original intent", like so many have tried. Because that's generally the spin.
I think he DISCOVERED it by accident- then set out to do it on purpose after that.
Broken Arrow's shown it's possible it was by design the first time.
The evidence can support either possibility.
Yeah..... "You're doing this all wrong!! By the way, would you do it again for another year?" :wacko:/>
That's up there with the times they chewed people out, kicked them out,
then immediately gave them orders and had the nerve to be surprised when
they were told to go f themselves since the person was now out and not
If it wasn't all an accident, if it was malicious intent, then there's no need to try and "fix the ministry", to restore to VPW's "original intent", like so many have tried. Because that's generally the spin.
Wierwille was a prick and a charlatan from the word go. Plenty of us struggled to figure out if he started out with honorable intent. I've come to the perspective that no, from the time he started rebelling against the denomination that originally ordained him he had the intent to build an organization that he was the focus, focal point and the entire reason for its existence.
All or most of us idealistic youth who got caught up in his scheme probably had honorable intentions from the start. But that's how things go in cults.
Penworks posted an interesting link to a you tube channel in the cult prevention thread. I watched one of the videos and it sounded like most of the people telling their stories could have been us.
I looked at that Cult Awareness site too. And yes - they could have been us. Well-educated people too - before they went in - got more quals afterwards. Having smarts doesn't mean you don't get fooled.
VPW and all these cult leaders - need us more than we need them, actually. Without followers, they can't lead. Can't bully. VPW started with a few problems in life. Hit upon something that didn't require a lot of physical work. Stole the materials so he didn't need to do the mental work. Got a few followers, his ego grew, no-one to keep it in check, ego got bigger, got more followers, ego got bigger, and so on. Enough material to keep people interested while he perfected his bullying techniques and the co-dependency with his followers.
During our brief time in residence in FWC Martindale was spewing some sort of twisted history lesson about the Civil War (War Between the States if you're from the South) was not about slavery or preserving the Union but something about the cotton trade or rum-slave-cotton trade or some such crap. During that time I was assigned some cleaning, clearing out whatever job and remarked to the 19th WC supervisor, someone whose last name may have been Smith and who was a dear close personal friend of LCM, that we would go through the task like Sherman through Georgia.
Holy dang! Did I not listen attentively with undivided attention to the sacred words of the MOG about the real causes, true history, et cetera. I had, but I was something of a Civil War buff, had lived in South Carolina for eight years, and wasn't impressed with the LCM version.
I did survive, but that guy watched me like a hawk ever after. I had committed the REAL unforgivable sin; I didn't swallow the words of the MOG hook, line and sinker. And I had the unmitigated audacity to think for myself.
And everything Waysider said about FLO is accurate.
Recommended Posts
waysider
I should have added that, later, here at GSC, I learned that almost this exact scenario was being played out for the Way Corps at the same time.......It was all a pre-orchestrated performance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
This is a good point.
Many things that happened didn't happen because we saw them through our own eyes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I'm not clear on your meaning.
Are you saying the criteria that defined an incident as a butt chewing was our perception of it?
I have to disagree. You can give a butt chewing (or a motivational speech) to an inanimate object. It will not perceive anything. It's futile, sure, but that doesn't change the event.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
That's interesting. That's quite a level of awareness of manipulation by the manipulator. This was vpw's work?
This something I'd like to by able to distinguish. That awareness of the guilty party's manipulation, on a timeline.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
It was in about 1976 or 1977. Wierwille was still fully in charge of The Way. Does that help?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Actually I think we do agree.
Sometimes the worst part of a butt-chewing is that everyone who was there denies it ever happened.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
Sure, thanks.
If we assume VPW was cognizant of his actions and understood the effects, how much does is that still a factor in today's leadership? Are today's leaders performing the same acts, out of the same motives, or simply out of blind and twisted imitation?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Most were subjected to the same kind of treatments. It's hard to imagine they haven't deduced the reality of what was happening. As to their motives, you would have to ask them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
Classic TWI technique. You are screwing up the whole thing! You! You're young, you're idealistic, and you have yourself fully invested in this. You're convinced (yech!) That the whole world needs this and then "bam!" Someone you respect comes along and says you are messing up the whole thing, and then kicks you out. Just as you're starting to resolve yourself to the situation they come back and say, "Wait! God has changed the revelation, you can stay!" Oh how thankful you are! You were screwing up the whole thing, but God and the ministry are "allowing" you to come back. Aren't they loving and forgiving and kind? You deserved excommunication, but they're "allowing" you back. You owe them everything, they owe you nothing.
The North Koreans and the Chinese did the same thing in the 1950's. You can also read about this same technique in George Orwell's novel 1984. It's effective if you're not aware of what's going on and if you're in a controlled environment.
I have a hard time believing that the leadership of TWI was smart enough to use these techniques on purpose. But when I hear stories like this, and think on similar situations where I was personally involved, I believe somebody knew what they were doing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
My SUSPICION is that it was discovered BY ACCIDENT.
vpw was a LAZY student who cut corners and BS'ed his way through things,
and had an inflated sense of self.
(He shows signs of Sociopathy as well.)
We know he did this to the "Zero Corps."
He got mad at them and kicked the whole group out.
Then he turned around, and offered to let them return,
provided they rededicate themselves to him.
Many of them accepted this "offer."
So, I think vpw did that one out of pique, as an impulse,
then as covering his @$$ and getting them to pay tuition again.
Then he realized he could make this a financially successful
maneuver and worked out variations of it. This would then lead to
the versions we were talking about.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: Sounds like a typical in-rez Corps Coord trick. Get y'all together and then say you're not good enough and you will all be thrown out. Look sad or hurt by the pitiful bunch of [slaves] in front of you. Get them all ansty. Then "forgive" them and let them back, if they work harder/are more committed/drink more KoolAid.
I heard that the 6th way corps once had this happen. Several of them were threatened and some were actually kicked out, then the ones who weren't kicked out were told they could come back.
It seems to me there was a constant struggle in which, the top leaders wanted the standards and expectations of the way corps to be true out on the field as much as possible. But it never worked. Every so often a limb coordinator would give a serious as death teaching, or make you go to a limb meeting on New Years day or superbowl Sunday just to see who was really committed, but it didn't really change the morale or atmosphere on the field. At least, not where I ever was.
Over time, especially after the so called fog years, the top leaders figured out that if they were EVER going to achieve the result of meshing WC standards with life on the field, they would have to thin the herd severely. Enter the loyalty letter, the debt purge, the homo purge, the unproductive evil purge, (seems comical now), and, voila, life on the field was WORSE than the WC was when VP was alive. They had to go to twig three plus times per week, they had to account on paper for every 15 minute segment of their day, stuff like that. Reminds me of that bit in the book of Revelation where somebody is begging for death and it won't come; something like that.
But it STILL didn't work. All those people who bought that and tried to be obedient, thinking that eventually those of us who rejected it wound be on our knees in sackcloth and ashes begging for forgiveness, they themselves left twi and felt really stupid, especially when they would run into people like us. We were right after all, despite all the emphasis on loyalty to the ministry that taught you the word.
As for butt chewings? They are a natural biproduct of a strategy like that. (trying to force people on the field to act like people in leadership training)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"I heard that the 6th way corps once had this happen."
That's probably the same one that coincided with the FellowLaborer event.
While I don't think they were expertly skilled in manipulation techniques, I do think they deliberately designed and fabricated these two incidents. No one in that meeting had any idea what we could have possibly done that was so egregious. It was a heartbreaker. There were people there who had totally committed to the program, left holding the bag, in the middle of nowhere, hundreds of miles from home.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
I rested my forearms on the dining room table.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Well, you uncouth person, Jim. Definitely worthy of being hung, drawn and quartered. You got off lightly. :evilshades:/>
The "throw you all out" thing was standard fare. Wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that it was actually scheduled for about 3 or 4 months into every program. In rez, WD, WoW, whatever. Bloody fools, the lot of them. ...and us, too, for playing along.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
I don't know, but VPW did have a relative who once taught the Corps about the brainwashing techniques of the North Koreans.I was present at that meeting. The context of it for us was that was when deprogramming just started. This was the same relative who organized a "prison camp" for the 5th Corps once. The story is recorded by Karl Kahler in "The Cult that Snapped". I'm not sure how extensive this guy's knowledge was of brain washing techniques. We know, however, that he did the prison camp experiment with some Corps and we know he had served in the military. So maybe, just maybe, VPW did contrive the whole thing purposely. I guess it doesn't really matter if it was contrived or not. The result is still the same. Just food for thought.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
hiway29
In 1979, I somehow wound up running the state of CT bookstore for a year. I was required to not only run a table at every large event, but anytime someone in the state thought it would be nice to have the bookstore at their event. I was working a weird job at a doorknob factory by day,and always on call at night. It took 40 minutes to drive to HQ,then load up the car,drive wherever in CT they wanted me,do the event,drive back to HQ,re stock it all perfectly,do the finances,then drive home to get a few hours sleep before going to work. This was the years Joyful Noise was doing Take a Stand caravan,and of course I'd be selling the album.state leader Steve Str&$!pek gave me some orders as I set up. Apparently Vince F&nn&gan had other ideas,and thought I was disobeying him. He came by the table,yelled something I didn't understand at me, and glared like he really wanted to punch me in the face. Of course I was wrong for causing problems for Vince and was in a no win situation.
Not long after,I left work in a rainstorm to go to limb ,load up and go to far side of CT,for a class table. I was met at the door by an irate limb leader's wife who screamed at me for 10 minutes.i didn't know what I was getting yelled at for, it wasn't specific at all. That really set the night of driving in the rain,and getting hom at 1 am.
That August they asked me to do it for another year. It may be the only time I said no in 10 years.
Edited by hiway29Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Yeah..... "You're doing this all wrong!! By the way, would you do it again for another year?" :wacko:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
If it wasn't all an accident, if it was malicious intent, then there's no need to try and "fix the ministry", to restore to VPW's "original intent", like so many have tried. Because that's generally the spin.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I think he DISCOVERED it by accident- then set out to do it on purpose after that.
Broken Arrow's shown it's possible it was by design the first time.
The evidence can support either possibility.
That's up there with the times they chewed people out, kicked them out,
then immediately gave them orders and had the nerve to be surprised when
they were told to go f themselves since the person was now out and not
subject to twi's ordinances.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Wierwille was a prick and a charlatan from the word go. Plenty of us struggled to figure out if he started out with honorable intent. I've come to the perspective that no, from the time he started rebelling against the denomination that originally ordained him he had the intent to build an organization that he was the focus, focal point and the entire reason for its existence.
All or most of us idealistic youth who got caught up in his scheme probably had honorable intentions from the start. But that's how things go in cults.
Penworks posted an interesting link to a you tube channel in the cult prevention thread. I watched one of the videos and it sounded like most of the people telling their stories could have been us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I looked at that Cult Awareness site too. And yes - they could have been us. Well-educated people too - before they went in - got more quals afterwards. Having smarts doesn't mean you don't get fooled.
VPW and all these cult leaders - need us more than we need them, actually. Without followers, they can't lead. Can't bully. VPW started with a few problems in life. Hit upon something that didn't require a lot of physical work. Stole the materials so he didn't need to do the mental work. Got a few followers, his ego grew, no-one to keep it in check, ego got bigger, got more followers, ego got bigger, and so on. Enough material to keep people interested while he perfected his bullying techniques and the co-dependency with his followers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
During our brief time in residence in FWC Martindale was spewing some sort of twisted history lesson about the Civil War (War Between the States if you're from the South) was not about slavery or preserving the Union but something about the cotton trade or rum-slave-cotton trade or some such crap. During that time I was assigned some cleaning, clearing out whatever job and remarked to the 19th WC supervisor, someone whose last name may have been Smith and who was a dear close personal friend of LCM, that we would go through the task like Sherman through Georgia.
Holy dang! Did I not listen attentively with undivided attention to the sacred words of the MOG about the real causes, true history, et cetera. I had, but I was something of a Civil War buff, had lived in South Carolina for eight years, and wasn't impressed with the LCM version.
I did survive, but that guy watched me like a hawk ever after. I had committed the REAL unforgivable sin; I didn't swallow the words of the MOG hook, line and sinker. And I had the unmitigated audacity to think for myself.
And everything Waysider said about FLO is accurate.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.