We realized early on that there was a need to distinguish between discussions about our experiences in and out of TWI versus the doctrines espoused by TWI and others. Sometimes it's a huge challenge to draw the line. But if you want to talk about what people think of The Word, the Doctrinal section is generally the place to go. Discussing the REV in the CES/STFI section makes sense too. That's a toss-up, but doctrinal makes a little more sense.
So, Rocky, you pretty much assumee that stupidity prevails and you are our savior from it. Your warnings are appreciated. You are left with nothing brother. Is it possible to have beliefs, and fellowship without cult. Your speech is desperation, not really a warning. What do you seek.
That had nothing to do with what Rocky posted.
He posted some academic information which could be some good talking points,
and some people will read them for themselves.
I don't know what you HOPED to find in his post,
but it sounded more like if it wasn't some sort of sermon,
it was wrong in your eyes. That's not how it works here.
I recognize you, MRAP, are new to the forums and I urge that you make quick progress to learn what is considered appropriate in here. The others are letting you know what is acceptable and what is not. Please take heed.
We let a lot slide in here until it becomes apparent that cyber fisticuffs are near, but there are rules, and I encourage you to follow them as a start. In addition to rules there are certain nuances of the way people say things that are not met with pleasantries. You have now been formally made aware.
The Warning has been given, and the perp recognized! ... Let see how long it takes for The Warning to really settle in. (Ie., before the perp gets booted. :-D )
Rocky referenced an article that talked about the signs of a cult
4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before.
What you say, Rocky, about Wierwille when he had all Corps write the "From Birth to the Corps" thing is true. However, I believe that true confession is good for the soul.
In America, and maybe in other parts of the world, we (especially men) try to impress others with how "together" we are. We seem to have a mistaken idea that if things aren't going well all of the time then there must be something wrong with us. We don't know how to be vulnerable, and we don't know how to hurt. So, we hide behind our platitudes about how great things are when they really aren't. The result is inauthentic relationships. We become afraid that others may discover that we are not as "together" as we act and we may lose some sort of social advantage. We don't come clean and involve others in our struggles.
The reality is if we don't involve others in our lives, we are more likely to continue with our same struggles year after year. Confession frees us from that. When I say "confession", I'm simply talking about having a group of close friends with whom you can share your shortcomings without fear of being condemned or ostracized. Not this public humiliation of confessing your sins and being publicly shamed.
We didn't have authentic confession in TWI. We really couldn't share our fears or doubts with anyone. If we shared too much "negative" confession we would eventually get reproved and maybe even demoted.
So having this "together" persona was emphasized in TWI and is also emphasized generally in the U.S.
Rocky referenced an article that talked about the signs of a cult
4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before.
What you say, Rocky, about Wierwille when he had all Corps write the "From Birth to the Corps" thing is true. However, I believe that true confession is good for the soul.
In America, and maybe in other parts of the world, we (especially men) try to impress others with how "together" we are. We seem to have a mistaken idea that if things aren't going well all of the time then there must be something wrong with us. We don't know how to be vulnerable, and we don't know how to hurt. So, we hide behind our platitudes about how great things are when they really aren't. The result is inauthentic relationships. We become afraid that others may discover that we are not as "together" as we act and we may lose some sort of social advantage. We don't come clean and involve others in our struggles.
The reality is if we don't involve others in our lives, we are more likely to continue with our same struggles year after year. Confession frees us from that. When I say "confession", I'm simply talking about having a group of close friends with whom you can share your shortcomings without fear of being condemned or ostracized. Not this public humiliation of confessing your sins and being publicly shamed.
We didn't have authentic confession in TWI. We really couldn't share our fears or doubts with anyone. If we shared too much "negative" confession we would eventually get reproved and maybe even demoted.
So having this "together" persona was emphasized in TWI and is also emphasized generally in the U.S.
Yes, willingness to be vulnerable is and should be contingent on having relationships based on trust. I agree emphatically.
Confession of weaknesses, vulnerability and shortcomings, to people who intend to exploit you, however, is definitely not a good thing.
I do believe that I had admitted (in a different forum possibly) to have been in the wrong forum for the discussions that I wanted about information. Yes, the TWI forum was not a place to address those desires I have about Biblical discussion. I am not a defender of TWI, I in fact have alot of reasons to dis on TWI but desire not to do so - not really much profit in that. What I have found out about mis-posting on the wrong forum is how vicious folks can get about defending TWI - and I really don't care, dis all you want, you would probably find me in your back-court. What else did I learn by my mistake: anti-TWI folk have in essence turned themselves into a "sort" of cult, nah, cult is too strong of a word, just an anti-TWI click - 1st: don't defend TWI or else you will get piled on, 2d: stick together in your anti-TWI rehtoric and 3d: plan to exclude said individual. You see, maybe an opposing voice to the anti-TWI concept is a good thing for self relection of how a group interacts somewhat like a cult or click of folks. I though, am not your adversary. Go back an read your posts. I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that.
"I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that."
Nah. Nobody's gonna kick you out. Unless , of course, you flagrantly violate the posting rules. Even then, I think you'll find this place to be one of the most tolerant forums you'll ever encounter. You just need to understand that the ride can get a bit bumpy in here from time to time. All opinions are welcomed, though not necessarily shared by the consensus. Post away. Have some fun. Like the kids at the hockey barn say, "We're all skatin' on the same ice.".
MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first question directed towards leadership. They had nothing. They were kept poor and many times underfed.
They came here shattered. Many have PTSD.
This is their place to vent and be protected.
You are like me: Not in for too long and not deeply involved. I sincerely have no point of reference when it comes to what they went through. I found my fringe involvement confining and appalling enough. I don't get how they did it, much less why.
Your military training, by and large, protects you from personalizing. The corp trained received a sort of military training that tore people down and built them into non-thinking non-individuals.There was no outside point of reference that was accepted as a viable standard for living. When some of these people were kicked out, it would be similar to a court martial and simply leaving them on the road with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Unfortunately, in many instances, outside family relations had been damaged. Family who remained were not allowed to interact with those who left. They were devastated. They came here. Many have managed to pull themselves together. Some more quickly and thoroughly than others.
There is no time table.
There are very few TWI or splinter apologists here. Some swoop in hoping to latch onto a few who pine for the old days. Some just like to debate doctrine. A fair number finally figure out that everything they once held dear is nothing more than vomit. Most eventually lose the lingo. Some eventually develop some actual critical thinking skills. But in every case it is a process.
People want you to respect that process, even if you don't think you need it.
I do believe that I had admitted (in a different forum possibly) to have been in the wrong forum for the discussions that I wanted about information. Yes, the TWI forum was not a place to address those desires I have about Biblical discussion. I am not a defender of TWI, I in fact have alot of reasons to dis on TWI but desire not to do so - not really much profit in that. What I have found out about mis-posting on the wrong forum is how vicious folks can get about defending TWI - and I really don't care, dis all you want, you would probably find me in your back-court. What else did I learn by my mistake: anti-TWI folk have in essence turned themselves into a "sort" of cult, nah, cult is too strong of a word, just an anti-TWI click - 1st: don't defend TWI or else you will get piled on, 2d: stick together in your anti-TWI rehtoric and 3d: plan to exclude said individual. You see, maybe an opposing voice to the anti-TWI concept is a good thing for self relection of how a group interacts somewhat like a cult or click of folks. I though, am not your adversary. Go back an read your posts. I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that.
Tee hee. He thinks he's the first pro-TWI voice on GSC. Tee hee hee.
Ok, some history: MANY posters are QUITE pro-TWI in terms of doctrine and appreciation for Wierwille and the things he taught. We are quite capable of distinguishing between what he actually taught and how he lived. Even when we accuse him of plagiarism (of which he was TOTALLY guilty, by the way), that is never presented to discredit the doctrine itself. So what if Kenyon said it first, largely in the exact same words? Was it true? Or at least, was it Biblically accurate?
So no, you don't get piled on for defending TWI. You get piled on for excusing abuse. You get piled on for idolizing a selfish opportunist who feasted on our love for God to satisfy his lust for money, women and power. But you don't get piled on for accepting Jesus Christ is Not God. You don't get piled on for distinguishing between Holy Spirit and holy spirit. You don't get piled on for praying or for giving or for believing in the rapture/gathering together. "Stick together in your anti-TWI rhetoric"? But we don't. Each of us draws a line, and I would venture to say that no two people draw the line in exactly the same way. "Plan to exclude said individual"? Not one person, not one, has criticized you for a view you've expressed. Not one. Every criticism leveled at you has been about how you are addressing us. It is, as I said elsewhere, a tad condescending. Perhaps you don't see it that way. Well, that's why we're pointing it out to you.
Excommunicated? No way! Where would this site be without people like Oldiesman, Johniam and others who are unafraid to stand up for what they believe in? They're not excluded in the slightest.
I'll admit, most people who are defenders of some parts of TWI are long gone from the GSC. But that's to be expected: Most posters are long gone from the GSC. Very few remain. We have, as stated elsewhere, moved on.
I stick around for three reasons: 1. I'm a moderator, and there's not a lot of us who keep checking up on the place. 2. I have recently "come out" as atheist, and I find value in exploring/defending that position with people who knew me as a believer. And 3. The game threads are nifty and fun.
You're not getting excommunicated unless you get abusive. You have not been. Far from it. I think any missteps you've made are easily the result of enthusiastically trying to introduce yourself to a group whose dynamics you do not know very well.
Personally, I think you're the most interesting thing to happen to this forum in a long time. I'm glad you stopped by, glad you figured out how to find me, and glad you're posting.
"I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that."
Nah. Nobody's gonna kick you out. Unless , of course, you flagrantly violate the posting rules. Even then, I think you'll find this place to be one of the most tolerant forums you'll ever encounter. You just need to understand that the ride can get a bit bumpy in here from time to time. All opinions are welcomed, though not necessarily shared by the consensus. Post away. Have some fun. Like the kids at the hockey barn say, "We're all skatin' on the same ice.".
Well, thanks waysider. I am on the wrong forum for what I am looking so will soon be exeting and going to the "doctrinal" forum) and what ever the name of that other forum is to find ol'e TWI folks. I meant no disrespect to you by the Kermit reference, I know I thought that I was further into the forum folks than I thought - then, what was I thinking, not really wanting to belong to a "click" of folks, no dis intended but that's how many of you are - I suppose that's a very good thing in many ways since the healing concept is a big part of GSC. I will leave with this, I look alot at the tense, voice, etc. of language (just how I went back and looked at what I wrote) and that is why I am so hyped about the REV by the STF.
MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first question directed towards leadership. They had nothing. They were kept poor and many times underfed.
They came here shattered. Many have PTSD.
This is their place to vent and be protected.
You are like me: Not in for too long and not deeply involved. I sincerely have no point of reference when it comes to what they went through. I found my fringe involvement confining and appalling enough. I don't get how they did it, much less why.
Your military training, by and large, protects you from personalizing. The corp trained received a sort of military training that tore people down and built them into non-thinking non-individuals.There was no outside point of reference that was accepted as a viable standard for living. When some of these people were kicked out, it would be similar to a court martial and simply leaving them on the road with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Unfortunately, in many instances, outside family relations had been damaged. Family who remained were not allowed to interact with those who left. They were devastated. They came here. Many have managed to pull themselves together. Some more quickly and thoroughly than others.
There is no time table.
There are very few TWI or splinter apologists here. Some swoop in hoping to latch onto a few who pine for the old days. Some just like to debate doctrine. A fair number finally figure out that everything they once held dear is nothing more than vomit. Most eventually lose the lingo. Some eventually develop some actual critical thinking skills. But in every case it is a process.
People want you to respect that process, even if you don't think you need it.
Taz, nothing like the military and it's wrong to refer to it as a sort of PTSD but you are not that far off the mark, sorry to say it but PTSD will eventually be grouped in with PMS (which itself has been degredaded) - after 37 years in the military, I have seen the dumbing down of military disorders (think of how they civilianized battle fatigue/shock). Yes, am off topic - enough said. I don't plan on staying or coming back to this forum, as I told waysider (Kermit AVATAR) my intents, you can read my response to him/her. Oh, and about the ol'e TWI days, no desire to pine for that way of life (left with a sharp cut), just would like to catch up with folks that were once very close: could not keep in touch with them since that would have endangered them as communicating with a TWI heritic (did the corp screen your mail - yeh, that's somewhat like military in a combat area). Anyway, (I forgive them, I understoud their fears - they could not even come to our wedding - another TWI WOW and I, now that's a great anti-TWI story), just want to know how they are doing. Yeh, I know this is a hard follow but so are alot of books.
Tee hee. He thinks he's the first pro-TWI voice on GSC. Tee hee hee.
Ok, some history: MANY posters are QUITE pro-TWI in terms of doctrine and appreciation for Wierwille and the things he taught. We are quite capable of distinguishing between what he actually taught and how he lived. Even when we accuse him of plagiarism (of which he was TOTALLY guilty, by the way), that is never presented to discredit the doctrine itself. So what if Kenyon said it first, largely in the exact same words? Was it true? Or at least, was it Biblically accurate?
So no, you don't get piled on for defending TWI. You get piled on for excusing abuse. You get piled on for idolizing a selfish opportunist who feasted on our love for God to satisfy his lust for money, women and power. But you don't get piled on for accepting Jesus Christ is Not God. You don't get piled on for distinguishing between Holy Spirit and holy spirit. You don't get piled on for praying or for giving or for believing in the rapture/gathering together. "Stick together in your anti-TWI rhetoric"? But we don't. Each of us draws a line, and I would venture to say that no two people draw the line in exactly the same way. "Plan to exclude said individual"? Not one person, not one, has criticized you for a view you've expressed. Not one. Every criticism leveled at you has been about how you are addressing us. It is, as I said elsewhere, a tad condescending. Perhaps you don't see it that way. Well, that's why we're pointing it out to you.
Excommunicated? No way! Where would this site be without people like Oldiesman, Johniam and others who are unafraid to stand up for what they believe in? They're not excluded in the slightest.
Raf, thanks and no thanks. I am far from a TWI supporter, I have very personal reasons to resent TWI, especially given the years I devoted to them and to have limb and branch leadership turn on me and my wife to be - basically, you were not allowed to go to the marriage. That pretty much sinched it for us - most of our twig was "forced" to leave, so, we just did an "outside the way" Bible study. Bottom line up front, I think that since I have labeled folks in this forum as overly (almost cultist and at the least, an anti-TWI click)that they should evaluate themselves, I see there stance as: I stand for nothing but only stand against something. Pointing that out does not make me a defender of TWI. Now, with regard to some of the folk (teachers, researchers, limb leader) who left TWI and my yet to be determined support of them (STF), I find it a bit offense by the folk who visit this forum to attack those posts that I have made, interpreting that since I do not jump on their band wagon than I must, by process of ellimination, be a TWI defender (that's shallow). VPW dumped on my desires to find Biblical truth, he took my money (sharing) and used it for himself (headquarters, Emporia and the Colorado resort), I financially supported corp folk (don't have a clue where they are these days - no thanks there either). I plan to stick around GSC until it no longer fits my purposes. Raf, you can read my recent posts to waysider, et.al. If only having the ability to dis TWI makes you a part of the "in crowd" than I am out.
I'll admit, most people who are defenders of some parts of TWI are long gone from the GSC. But that's to be expected: Most posters are long gone from the GSC. Very few remain. We have, as stated elsewhere, moved on.
I stick around for three reasons: 1. I'm a moderator, and there's not a lot of us who keep checking up on the place. 2. I have recently "come out" as atheist, and I find value in exploring/defending that position with people who knew me as a believer. And 3. The game threads are nifty and fun.
You're not getting excommunicated unless you get abusive. You have not been. Far from it. I think any missteps you've made are easily the result of enthusiastically trying to introduce yourself to a group whose dynamics you do not know very well.
Personally, I think you're the most interesting thing to happen to this forum in a long time. I'm glad you stopped by, glad you figured out how to find me, and glad you're posting.
Sir!
Here's my response to Raf, I posted it incorrectly within his post:
Raf, thanks and no thanks. I am far from a TWI supporter, I have very personal reasons to resent TWI, especially given the years I devoted to them and to have limb and branch leadership turn on me and my wife to be - basically, you were not allowed to go to the marriage. That pretty much sinched it for us - most of our twig was "forced" to leave, so, we just did an "outside the way" Bible study. Bottom line up front, I think that since I have labeled folks in this forum as overly (almost cultist and at the least, an anti-TWI click)that they should evaluate themselves, I see there stance as: I stand for nothing but only stand against something. Pointing that out does not make me a defender of TWI. Now, with regard to some of the folk (teachers, researchers, limb leader) who left TWI and my yet to be determined support of them (STF), I find it a bit offense by the folk who visit this forum to attack those posts that I have made, interpreting that since I do not jump on their band wagon than I must, by process of ellimination, be a TWI defender (that's shallow). VPW dumped on my desires to find Biblical truth, he took my money (sharing) and used it for himself (headquarters, Emporia and the Colorado resort), I financially supported corp folk (don't have a clue where they are these days - no thanks there either). I plan to stick around GSC until it no longer fits my purposes. Raf, you can read my recent posts to waysider, et.al. If only having the ability to dis TWI makes you a part of the "in crowd" than I am out.
Here's my response to Raf, I posted it incorrectly within his post:
Raf, thanks and no thanks. I am far from a TWI supporter, I have very personal reasons to resent TWI, especially given the years I devoted to them and to have limb and branch leadership turn on me and my wife to be - basically, you were not allowed to go to the marriage. That pretty much sinched it for us - most of our twig was "forced" to leave, so, we just did an "outside the way" Bible study. Bottom line up front, I think that since I have labeled folks in this forum as overly (almost cultist and at the least, an anti-TWI click)that they should evaluate themselves, I see there stance as: I stand for nothing but only stand against something. Pointing that out does not make me a defender of TWI. Now, with regard to some of the folk (teachers, researchers, limb leader) who left TWI and my yet to be determined support of them (STF), I find it a bit offense by the folk who visit this forum to attack those posts that I have made, interpreting that since I do not jump on their band wagon than I must, by process of ellimination, be a TWI defender (that's shallow). VPW dumped on my desires to find Biblical truth, he took my money (sharing) and used it for himself (headquarters, Emporia and the Colorado resort), I financially supported corp folk (don't have a clue where they are these days - no thanks there either). I plan to stick around GSC until it no longer fits my purposes. Raf, you can read my recent posts to waysider, et.al. If only having the ability to dis TWI makes you a part of the "in crowd" than I am out.
1) what exactly do you have, in terms of what possible personal qualifications you might have, that would qualify you to rightfully determine what ANY other person, besides yourself, should do?
2) how could you possibly know anything about anyone here that, even if you were somehow qualified, would give you any insight about the people here so that you could actually determine what they should do?
There is no "in crowd" here. Heck, there isn't even any "crowd."
I have to wonder how in the world you develop your expectations for what should happen here. Of course, that doesn't mean I expect you to tell me. I can live with not knowing.
Not that you would necessarily give any serious consideration to anything I might suggest, but it seems like you might benefit from getting clear on what you are looking for and then figuring out where you can find it.
Depending on what gets put on your list, you may or may not be able to reasonably expect anyone here to fulfill those desires.
You might also benefit from insight found in books written by Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence) and M Scott Peck (The Road Less Traveled... and several more excellent books).
From the description of the television offering this thread links to, that potential pop culture vehicle might provide some movement in the direction this thread inquired about.
Hi everyone. Getting back to the topic of this thread, Cult Prevention, I'd like to add a couple of things.
I think we can all agree that cult prevention is no easy task, especially in the U.S. where we have freedom of religion and certain constitutional protections, and apparent ease in creating a cult disguised as a non-profit organization BUT I think we can try. We must. Too much damage in the name of God is done by cults, right?
One way is warning others about destructive cults so they don't get mixed up in them, like having a place like this. Yay!
As I understand it, GSC was created for former TWI followers to share their stories and help each other understand The Way phenomenon and recover more mental and emotional health. At least that was my impression. So, I just want to say cheers to the people behind the scenes, i.e. moderators, etc. who keep the café open.
Maybe because I was recruited to TWI as a teenager in college I have a hunch that young people need more education about religion so they recognized a sales pitch for a cult when they hear it.
I don't mean education IN a religion but ABOUT religion and its power. So, I'd like to recommend a book by Stephen Prothero titled Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't. I wish I'd read that when I was 18 years old!
Prothero is a Christian and a scholar who writes in a way the general public can enjoy. The cover of the book states, "Provocative and timely...combines a lively history of the rise and fall of American religious literacy with a set of proposed remedies." - The Washington Post.
I am a firm believer in reading good educational material like Prothero's to help me, as well as poetry, fiction, newspapers, whatever...without censorship.
Full disclosure -- I am no longer a Christian, but an agnostic with a Buddhist sort of spirituality. I say that because I like people to know I am not a defender of any kind of "doctrine," but a defender of free inquiry and free speech, which is why I like to visit (and lurk at) this site. While in TWI, those freedoms were not respected, as least in my experience. I paid a high price.
So, does anyone else have a book they can recommend or other actions we can take to address cult prevention besides keeping GSC open and sharing our experiences whenever appropriate?
Maybe because I was recruited to TWI as a teenager in college I have a hunch that young people need more education about religion so they recognized a sales pitch for a cult when they hear it.
I don't mean education IN a religion but ABOUT religion and its power. So, I'd like to recommend a book by Stephen Prothero titled Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't. I wish I'd read that when I was 18 years old!
Prothero is a Christian and a scholar who writes in a way the general public can enjoy. The cover of the book states, "Provocative and timely...combines a lively history of the rise and fall of American religious literacy with a set of proposed remedies." - The Washington Post.
I am a firm believer in reading good educational material like Prothero's to help me, as well as poetry, fiction, newspapers, whatever...without censorship.
Full disclosure -- I am no longer a Christian, but an agnostic with a Buddhist sort of spirituality. I say that because I like people to know I am not a defender of any kind of "doctrine," but a defender of free inquiry and free speech, which is why I like to visit (and lurk at) this site. While in TWI, those freedoms were not respected, as least in my experience. I paid a high price.
So, does anyone else have a book they can recommend or other actions we can take to address cult prevention besides keeping GSC open and sharing our experiences whenever appropriate?
Cheers,
Penworks
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. I recently read a book of short stories written by E. L. Doctorow. One of the stories is about a cult and cult leader.
The story title is Walter John Harmon. It was published in the New Yorker magazine in May 2003.
I'm confident former wayfers will find a few parallels between the story and their experience in twi.
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Rocky
Preach it, brother!
skyrider
And,.........some "inadvertent cooperation" from his entourage......i.e. enablers. Bodyguards, valets, yes-men, swooning fawning admirers.........adding to the top marquee in town. Everyone, one
Tzaia
MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first quest
Raf
We realized early on that there was a need to distinguish between discussions about our experiences in and out of TWI versus the doctrines espoused by TWI and others. Sometimes it's a huge challenge to draw the line. But if you want to talk about what people think of The Word, the Doctrinal section is generally the place to go. Discussing the REV in the CES/STFI section makes sense too. That's a toss-up, but doctrinal makes a little more sense.
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WordWolf
So much for MRAP not having an "intent to judge."
That had nothing to do with what Rocky posted.
He posted some academic information which could be some good talking points,
and some people will read them for themselves.
I don't know what you HOPED to find in his post,
but it sounded more like if it wasn't some sort of sermon,
it was wrong in your eyes. That's not how it works here.
(Or in most of life.)
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Modgellan
I recognize you, MRAP, are new to the forums and I urge that you make quick progress to learn what is considered appropriate in here. The others are letting you know what is acceptable and what is not. Please take heed.
We let a lot slide in here until it becomes apparent that cyber fisticuffs are near, but there are rules, and I encourage you to follow them as a start. In addition to rules there are certain nuances of the way people say things that are not met with pleasantries. You have now been formally made aware.
Here is a link-
http://www.greasespo...tion=boardrules
also, please check your private messages for an explanation regarding a specific issue.
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GarthP2000
The Warning has been given, and the perp recognized! ... Let see how long it takes for The Warning to really settle in. (Ie., before the perp gets booted. :-D )
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Raf
Now, now. We spend all this time telling him it can get rough in here, so he probably just overcompensated. Cut the new guy a break.
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Broken Arrow
Rocky referenced an article that talked about the signs of a cult
4) Confession -- the WC exercise in writing an autobiography, "From Birth to the Corps" was all about demanding that each person reveal things that could and would be exploited by WC leadership (and wierwille) for selfish purposes. That subject has been discussed in this forum before.
What you say, Rocky, about Wierwille when he had all Corps write the "From Birth to the Corps" thing is true. However, I believe that true confession is good for the soul.
In America, and maybe in other parts of the world, we (especially men) try to impress others with how "together" we are. We seem to have a mistaken idea that if things aren't going well all of the time then there must be something wrong with us. We don't know how to be vulnerable, and we don't know how to hurt. So, we hide behind our platitudes about how great things are when they really aren't. The result is inauthentic relationships. We become afraid that others may discover that we are not as "together" as we act and we may lose some sort of social advantage. We don't come clean and involve others in our struggles.
The reality is if we don't involve others in our lives, we are more likely to continue with our same struggles year after year. Confession frees us from that. When I say "confession", I'm simply talking about having a group of close friends with whom you can share your shortcomings without fear of being condemned or ostracized. Not this public humiliation of confessing your sins and being publicly shamed.
We didn't have authentic confession in TWI. We really couldn't share our fears or doubts with anyone. If we shared too much "negative" confession we would eventually get reproved and maybe even demoted.
So having this "together" persona was emphasized in TWI and is also emphasized generally in the U.S.
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Rocky
Yes, willingness to be vulnerable is and should be contingent on having relationships based on trust. I agree emphatically.
Confession of weaknesses, vulnerability and shortcomings, to people who intend to exploit you, however, is definitely not a good thing.
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Tzaia
I really like Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer".
And isn't MRAP just a blast from the past?:evilshades:/>
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waysider
Pardon me, just passing through.....
My link
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MRAP
I do believe that I had admitted (in a different forum possibly) to have been in the wrong forum for the discussions that I wanted about information. Yes, the TWI forum was not a place to address those desires I have about Biblical discussion. I am not a defender of TWI, I in fact have alot of reasons to dis on TWI but desire not to do so - not really much profit in that. What I have found out about mis-posting on the wrong forum is how vicious folks can get about defending TWI - and I really don't care, dis all you want, you would probably find me in your back-court. What else did I learn by my mistake: anti-TWI folk have in essence turned themselves into a "sort" of cult, nah, cult is too strong of a word, just an anti-TWI click - 1st: don't defend TWI or else you will get piled on, 2d: stick together in your anti-TWI rehtoric and 3d: plan to exclude said individual. You see, maybe an opposing voice to the anti-TWI concept is a good thing for self relection of how a group interacts somewhat like a cult or click of folks. I though, am not your adversary. Go back an read your posts. I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that.
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Broken Arrow
Yeah, I definitely agree with you!
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waysider
"I do want to stay on this site but if it is determined that I must be excommunicated - I will accept that."
Nah. Nobody's gonna kick you out. Unless , of course, you flagrantly violate the posting rules. Even then, I think you'll find this place to be one of the most tolerant forums you'll ever encounter. You just need to understand that the ride can get a bit bumpy in here from time to time. All opinions are welcomed, though not necessarily shared by the consensus. Post away. Have some fun. Like the kids at the hockey barn say, "We're all skatin' on the same ice.".
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Tzaia
MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first question directed towards leadership. They had nothing. They were kept poor and many times underfed.
They came here shattered. Many have PTSD.
This is their place to vent and be protected.
You are like me: Not in for too long and not deeply involved. I sincerely have no point of reference when it comes to what they went through. I found my fringe involvement confining and appalling enough. I don't get how they did it, much less why.
Your military training, by and large, protects you from personalizing. The corp trained received a sort of military training that tore people down and built them into non-thinking non-individuals.There was no outside point of reference that was accepted as a viable standard for living. When some of these people were kicked out, it would be similar to a court martial and simply leaving them on the road with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Unfortunately, in many instances, outside family relations had been damaged. Family who remained were not allowed to interact with those who left. They were devastated. They came here. Many have managed to pull themselves together. Some more quickly and thoroughly than others.
There is no time table.
There are very few TWI or splinter apologists here. Some swoop in hoping to latch onto a few who pine for the old days. Some just like to debate doctrine. A fair number finally figure out that everything they once held dear is nothing more than vomit. Most eventually lose the lingo. Some eventually develop some actual critical thinking skills. But in every case it is a process.
People want you to respect that process, even if you don't think you need it.
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Raf
Tee hee. He thinks he's the first pro-TWI voice on GSC. Tee hee hee.
Ok, some history: MANY posters are QUITE pro-TWI in terms of doctrine and appreciation for Wierwille and the things he taught. We are quite capable of distinguishing between what he actually taught and how he lived. Even when we accuse him of plagiarism (of which he was TOTALLY guilty, by the way), that is never presented to discredit the doctrine itself. So what if Kenyon said it first, largely in the exact same words? Was it true? Or at least, was it Biblically accurate?
So no, you don't get piled on for defending TWI. You get piled on for excusing abuse. You get piled on for idolizing a selfish opportunist who feasted on our love for God to satisfy his lust for money, women and power. But you don't get piled on for accepting Jesus Christ is Not God. You don't get piled on for distinguishing between Holy Spirit and holy spirit. You don't get piled on for praying or for giving or for believing in the rapture/gathering together. "Stick together in your anti-TWI rhetoric"? But we don't. Each of us draws a line, and I would venture to say that no two people draw the line in exactly the same way. "Plan to exclude said individual"? Not one person, not one, has criticized you for a view you've expressed. Not one. Every criticism leveled at you has been about how you are addressing us. It is, as I said elsewhere, a tad condescending. Perhaps you don't see it that way. Well, that's why we're pointing it out to you.
Excommunicated? No way! Where would this site be without people like Oldiesman, Johniam and others who are unafraid to stand up for what they believe in? They're not excluded in the slightest.
I'll admit, most people who are defenders of some parts of TWI are long gone from the GSC. But that's to be expected: Most posters are long gone from the GSC. Very few remain. We have, as stated elsewhere, moved on.
I stick around for three reasons: 1. I'm a moderator, and there's not a lot of us who keep checking up on the place. 2. I have recently "come out" as atheist, and I find value in exploring/defending that position with people who knew me as a believer. And 3. The game threads are nifty and fun.
You're not getting excommunicated unless you get abusive. You have not been. Far from it. I think any missteps you've made are easily the result of enthusiastically trying to introduce yourself to a group whose dynamics you do not know very well.
Personally, I think you're the most interesting thing to happen to this forum in a long time. I'm glad you stopped by, glad you figured out how to find me, and glad you're posting.
Sir!
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MRAP
Well, thanks waysider. I am on the wrong forum for what I am looking so will soon be exeting and going to the "doctrinal" forum) and what ever the name of that other forum is to find ol'e TWI folks. I meant no disrespect to you by the Kermit reference, I know I thought that I was further into the forum folks than I thought - then, what was I thinking, not really wanting to belong to a "click" of folks, no dis intended but that's how many of you are - I suppose that's a very good thing in many ways since the healing concept is a big part of GSC. I will leave with this, I look alot at the tense, voice, etc. of language (just how I went back and looked at what I wrote) and that is why I am so hyped about the REV by the STF.
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MRAP
Taz, nothing like the military and it's wrong to refer to it as a sort of PTSD but you are not that far off the mark, sorry to say it but PTSD will eventually be grouped in with PMS (which itself has been degredaded) - after 37 years in the military, I have seen the dumbing down of military disorders (think of how they civilianized battle fatigue/shock). Yes, am off topic - enough said. I don't plan on staying or coming back to this forum, as I told waysider (Kermit AVATAR) my intents, you can read my response to him/her. Oh, and about the ol'e TWI days, no desire to pine for that way of life (left with a sharp cut), just would like to catch up with folks that were once very close: could not keep in touch with them since that would have endangered them as communicating with a TWI heritic (did the corp screen your mail - yeh, that's somewhat like military in a combat area). Anyway, (I forgive them, I understoud their fears - they could not even come to our wedding - another TWI WOW and I, now that's a great anti-TWI story), just want to know how they are doing. Yeh, I know this is a hard follow but so are alot of books.
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Tzaia
Gawd, you really do know everything, MRAP.
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MRAP
Here's my response to Raf, I posted it incorrectly within his post:
Raf, thanks and no thanks. I am far from a TWI supporter, I have very personal reasons to resent TWI, especially given the years I devoted to them and to have limb and branch leadership turn on me and my wife to be - basically, you were not allowed to go to the marriage. That pretty much sinched it for us - most of our twig was "forced" to leave, so, we just did an "outside the way" Bible study. Bottom line up front, I think that since I have labeled folks in this forum as overly (almost cultist and at the least, an anti-TWI click)that they should evaluate themselves, I see there stance as: I stand for nothing but only stand against something. Pointing that out does not make me a defender of TWI. Now, with regard to some of the folk (teachers, researchers, limb leader) who left TWI and my yet to be determined support of them (STF), I find it a bit offense by the folk who visit this forum to attack those posts that I have made, interpreting that since I do not jump on their band wagon than I must, by process of ellimination, be a TWI defender (that's shallow). VPW dumped on my desires to find Biblical truth, he took my money (sharing) and used it for himself (headquarters, Emporia and the Colorado resort), I financially supported corp folk (don't have a clue where they are these days - no thanks there either). I plan to stick around GSC until it no longer fits my purposes. Raf, you can read my recent posts to waysider, et.al. If only having the ability to dis TWI makes you a part of the "in crowd" than I am out.
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Rocky
1) what exactly do you have, in terms of what possible personal qualifications you might have, that would qualify you to rightfully determine what ANY other person, besides yourself, should do?
2) how could you possibly know anything about anyone here that, even if you were somehow qualified, would give you any insight about the people here so that you could actually determine what they should do?
There is no "in crowd" here. Heck, there isn't even any "crowd."
I have to wonder how in the world you develop your expectations for what should happen here. Of course, that doesn't mean I expect you to tell me. I can live with not knowing.
Not that you would necessarily give any serious consideration to anything I might suggest, but it seems like you might benefit from getting clear on what you are looking for and then figuring out where you can find it.
Depending on what gets put on your list, you may or may not be able to reasonably expect anyone here to fulfill those desires.
You might also benefit from insight found in books written by Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence) and M Scott Peck (The Road Less Traveled... and several more excellent books).
Good luck finding what you're looking for. :)
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MRAP
Rocky, you just made my point, thanks, I need say no more other than: maybe see you on a more civil forum.
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Rocky
Which point was that? I don't see it. Please explain. :)
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Rocky
Hey Bolshevik,
From the description of the television offering this thread links to, that potential pop culture vehicle might provide some movement in the direction this thread inquired about.
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penworks
Hi everyone. Getting back to the topic of this thread, Cult Prevention, I'd like to add a couple of things.
I think we can all agree that cult prevention is no easy task, especially in the U.S. where we have freedom of religion and certain constitutional protections, and apparent ease in creating a cult disguised as a non-profit organization BUT I think we can try. We must. Too much damage in the name of God is done by cults, right?
One way is warning others about destructive cults so they don't get mixed up in them, like having a place like this. Yay!
As I understand it, GSC was created for former TWI followers to share their stories and help each other understand The Way phenomenon and recover more mental and emotional health. At least that was my impression. So, I just want to say cheers to the people behind the scenes, i.e. moderators, etc. who keep the café open.
Maybe because I was recruited to TWI as a teenager in college I have a hunch that young people need more education about religion so they recognized a sales pitch for a cult when they hear it.
I don't mean education IN a religion but ABOUT religion and its power. So, I'd like to recommend a book by Stephen Prothero titled Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't. I wish I'd read that when I was 18 years old!
Prothero is a Christian and a scholar who writes in a way the general public can enjoy. The cover of the book states, "Provocative and timely...combines a lively history of the rise and fall of American religious literacy with a set of proposed remedies." - The Washington Post.
I am a firm believer in reading good educational material like Prothero's to help me, as well as poetry, fiction, newspapers, whatever...without censorship.
Full disclosure -- I am no longer a Christian, but an agnostic with a Buddhist sort of spirituality. I say that because I like people to know I am not a defender of any kind of "doctrine," but a defender of free inquiry and free speech, which is why I like to visit (and lurk at) this site. While in TWI, those freedoms were not respected, as least in my experience. I paid a high price.
So, does anyone else have a book they can recommend or other actions we can take to address cult prevention besides keeping GSC open and sharing our experiences whenever appropriate?
Cheers,
Penworks
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Rocky
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do. I recently read a book of short stories written by E. L. Doctorow. One of the stories is about a cult and cult leader.
The story title is Walter John Harmon. It was published in the New Yorker magazine in May 2003.
I'm confident former wayfers will find a few parallels between the story and their experience in twi.
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