A list of things that _you_ say meet the 'cult' criteria. (Which may or may not.) One thing I've noticed: Speaking of critical thinking, How does repeating what you were taught in that list about 'cults' = critical thinking? ... Believe it or not, that is what I'm endeavoring to do myself. ... Critical Thinking. Which _includes_ critical thinking re: what a lot of people claim about 'cults'. ... Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, right?
Anywho, just somethings to think about.
Peace. ... Really, this time. ... (I have _got_ to learn self-discipline. )
Hi Garth... Penworks may not want to boast or brag or even suggest she knows better than anyone else but...
She and he husband have done actual academic research (including in many places, not in the USA) that probably did an excellent job of informing her understanding of the items on that list.
I cringe when people use "cult" and "obsession" interchangeably. Take, for example, Rocky Horror Picture Show. It's not a cult film, it's a film that caters to an obsessive social experience. Those are two totally different things.
Yeah, I know how that can be. However, a different -- also legitimate -- usage of the word cult DOES fairly describe Rocky Horror Picture Show. Obviously, two totally different meanings.
This may be useful: It's my checklist for a cult. I figure that if a group's characteristics fit this list, then it's a cult.
CULT aspects:
Leader's Claim of "special knowledge": Wierwille claimed: "He [God] said He would teach me The Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would teach it to others."
Even though he's dead, let's face it, TWI in New Knoxville and offshoots cling to and promote his fundamentalist teachings, whether they've slightly "revised" them or not.
Control&Indoctrination
Control of information, behavior, emotions, thoughts, and money. Harmful effects on followers:
Shut off their critical thinking capacity.
Fear modernity: evolution, medicine, technology.
Fear the historical-critical approach to the Bible and condemn it.
Invest time, money, energy in cult's goals, not their own.
Suffer health problems, even death, from thinking "I'm healed."
Slap band aid Bible answers on a democratic society's complex problems.
Seize political control to promote their beliefs.
Become paranoid that unbelievers are persecuting them.
Often disrespect other religions and avenues of spirituality.
Develop habits of manipulating people and scriptures.
Break relationships that hinder commitment to the group.
Unwittingly or deliberately spread propaganda.
Lose educational, financial, and relationship opportunities.
Retards their own personal growth
Checks list. Applies to Paul. Results: 75 percent match. Applies to Moses. Results: 100 percent match.
Yeah, I know how that can be. However, a different -- also legitimate -- usage of the word cult DOES fairly describe Rocky Horror Picture Show. Obviously, two totally different meanings.
This is something some here (at GSC) understand. I think most people's (in the USA) minds jump to the religious aspects. Everything becomes a religious discussion. That makes it difficult to have constructive conversations.
Checks list. Applies to Paul. Results: 75 percent match. Applies to Moses. Results: 100 percent match.
Yes indeed. Theirs was a tribal mentality, which always has to include a Them vs. Us and a good deal of control.
Garth,
Do me a favor. Rewrite Penworks' post. And Rafs'.
Tell me their meanings.
(emphasis on the "s")
If you have questions about my post, feel free to ask me, not ask anyone to "rewrite" what I said. They don't have that job. I'd be happy to try and help.
If you have questions about my post, feel free to ask me, not ask anyone to "rewrite" what I said. They don't have that job. I'd be happy to try and help.
I don't. Sorry "rewriting" wasn't about you or your post. I see that looks bad.
I cringe when people use "cult" and "obsession" interchangeably. Take, for example, Rocky Horror Picture Show. It's not a cult film, it's a film that caters to an obsessive social experience. Those are two totally different things.
An obsession can be harmful out of moderation. With a cult, are you referring to there being an individual or group seeking to abuse another?
(Although I always thought "cult classic" was fun to say. Now I might bite my tongue.)
According to Cultwatch, their first definition of a cult is a religion that does not acknowledge Jesus is God !...go figure
Right, this sort of thing, dogma arguments (if we can call it that), I think takes away from focusing on what actually happens in a cult. Fluffy nonsense to distract the abused, and if someone is actually trying to help, a red herring.
A cult is a religion whose founder is still alive.
A cult is where money which should go into mainstream Christian collection plates doesn't.
The word cult is a bigoted slur used by some people to attack other people.
Back in the day I wasn't afraid to read what was said about twi in books like Mindbenders, Youth, brainwashing and the extremist cults, etc. They all made a point of saying that the number one reason we were a cult is because we believed Jesus isn't God. Jews and Muslims also don't believe that Jesus is God. But these self appointed cult experts wouldn't DARE admit that they believe Jews and Muslims are in cults. They would immediately be compared to Hitler. But we KNOW that's what they think. All the mind control and brainwashing BS could be said of many things: military, college, mainstream religion, feminism, anything with a belief system associated with it.
The adversary is patient. I knew back in the 70s that attacking small religions was only going to lead to attacking ALL religions, especially Christianity. That's what's happening now.
But Scientology got the cult label when he was still alive. John's point has merit.
One quibble I have, John, is that you criticize the "cult" labelers inaccurately, IF my memory serves. They do not consider a religion a cult for rejecting the trinity. They would have no reason to label Jews and Muslims as cultists.
Rather, they consider you a cult if you reject the trinity BUT STILL CALL YOURSELF CHRISTIAN. Thus, TWI, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Worldwide Church of God (back in the old days) were all labeled cults. It wasn't just because they rejected the trinity. It was because they rejected the trinity while still "pretending" to be Christian. The term they used, if I recall correctly, was "pseudoChristian" cults.
Atheists put it another way: in a cult, there's someone at the top who knows it's all a scam. In a religion, that person died centuries ago.
"A cult is a religion whose founder is still alive."
The last time I checked, L.Ron Hubbard was still dead.
Hi Waysider.
Maybe another thread topic where this has been discussed. Someone knowledgeable of how to pull the the strings can start a cult. I think that's the easy part. (Relatively)
One question I've been hung up on . . . as we see in a very recent prior post . . . is how people NOT knowledgeable of the mechanism, passive carriers of abusive pieces to a larger system. That's where the "Bad Guy" can't be found . . . because maybe there isn't someone, or central brain, pulling the strings.
I personally don't like equating cults with religious beliefs. There are plenty of cults, past and present, that have nothing to do with religious beliefs. Think about how any hardcore biker "club" operates to interpret my meaning.
I think this is an important point. Most books on cults that I've read bring this to the forefront: groups that place high demands on followers, attempting to control them, fall into the destructive cult description.
I think cults and abuse ( of all sorts ) go hand in hand....the exception to this would be organizations like the catholics that are not a cult as such, yet has more than it's fair share of paedophilac abusers :wacko:
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Rocky
Hi Garth... Penworks may not want to boast or brag or even suggest she knows better than anyone else but...
She and he husband have done actual academic research (including in many places, not in the USA) that probably did an excellent job of informing her understanding of the items on that list.
Yeah, I know how that can be. However, a different -- also legitimate -- usage of the word cult DOES fairly describe Rocky Horror Picture Show. Obviously, two totally different meanings.
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Raf
Checks list. Applies to Paul. Results: 75 percent match. Applies to Moses. Results: 100 percent match.
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Bolshevik
This is something some here (at GSC) understand. I think most people's (in the USA) minds jump to the religious aspects. Everything becomes a religious discussion. That makes it difficult to have constructive conversations.
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penworks
Yes indeed. Theirs was a tribal mentality, which always has to include a Them vs. Us and a good deal of control.
If you have questions about my post, feel free to ask me, not ask anyone to "rewrite" what I said. They don't have that job. I'd be happy to try and help.
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Bolshevik
I don't. Sorry "rewriting" wasn't about you or your post. I see that looks bad.
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Raf
I took it to mean Bolshevik wanted to know if he (she?) was interpreting our posts the same way Garth was.
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Bolshevik
An obsession can be harmful out of moderation. With a cult, are you referring to there being an individual or group seeking to abuse another?
(Although I always thought "cult classic" was fun to say. Now I might bite my tongue.)
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Allan
According to Cultwatch, their first definition of a cult is a religion that does not acknowledge Jesus is God !...go figure
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Bolshevik
Right, this sort of thing, dogma arguments (if we can call it that), I think takes away from focusing on what actually happens in a cult. Fluffy nonsense to distract the abused, and if someone is actually trying to help, a red herring.
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johniam
A cult is a religion whose founder is still alive.
A cult is where money which should go into mainstream Christian collection plates doesn't.
The word cult is a bigoted slur used by some people to attack other people.
Back in the day I wasn't afraid to read what was said about twi in books like Mindbenders, Youth, brainwashing and the extremist cults, etc. They all made a point of saying that the number one reason we were a cult is because we believed Jesus isn't God. Jews and Muslims also don't believe that Jesus is God. But these self appointed cult experts wouldn't DARE admit that they believe Jews and Muslims are in cults. They would immediately be compared to Hitler. But we KNOW that's what they think. All the mind control and brainwashing BS could be said of many things: military, college, mainstream religion, feminism, anything with a belief system associated with it.
The adversary is patient. I knew back in the 70s that attacking small religions was only going to lead to attacking ALL religions, especially Christianity. That's what's happening now.
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waysider
"A cult is a religion whose founder is still alive."
The last time I checked, L.Ron Hubbard was still dead.
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Raf
But Scientology got the cult label when he was still alive. John's point has merit.
One quibble I have, John, is that you criticize the "cult" labelers inaccurately, IF my memory serves. They do not consider a religion a cult for rejecting the trinity. They would have no reason to label Jews and Muslims as cultists.
Rather, they consider you a cult if you reject the trinity BUT STILL CALL YOURSELF CHRISTIAN. Thus, TWI, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Worldwide Church of God (back in the old days) were all labeled cults. It wasn't just because they rejected the trinity. It was because they rejected the trinity while still "pretending" to be Christian. The term they used, if I recall correctly, was "pseudoChristian" cults.
Atheists put it another way: in a cult, there's someone at the top who knows it's all a scam. In a religion, that person died centuries ago.
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Bolshevik
Hi Waysider.
Maybe another thread topic where this has been discussed. Someone knowledgeable of how to pull the the strings can start a cult. I think that's the easy part. (Relatively)
One question I've been hung up on . . . as we see in a very recent prior post . . . is how people NOT knowledgeable of the mechanism, passive carriers of abusive pieces to a larger system. That's where the "Bad Guy" can't be found . . . because maybe there isn't someone, or central brain, pulling the strings.
Am I making sense?
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penworks
I think this is an important point. Most books on cults that I've read bring this to the forefront: groups that place high demands on followers, attempting to control them, fall into the destructive cult description.
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johniam
I'm just saying that the word 'cult' is a political social label, not a factual label.
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excathedra
haven't read thread (I know I suck) -- how about what make it a place of abuse ?
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Allan
I think cults and abuse ( of all sorts ) go hand in hand....the exception to this would be organizations like the catholics that are not a cult as such, yet has more than it's fair share of paedophilac abusers :wacko:
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excathedra
absolutely they are the biggest abusers I've encountered
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