I intentionally gave a vague answer as I presumed we can post, reply, response in our own way we wished as long as it's not abusive ? A nice request from Raf would have gone a long way towards an even more detailed response but then with a lot of topics to me , they are no more than a passing perusal type of interest anyway and I'll respond to the degree I'm interested. I certainly cannot be bothered sitting down in front of the keyboard sweating over every grammatical point and whether I've got the tense, verbs, adjectives, inflections correct ! If I was interested in that type of thing I would myself enrol in a writing course or some such...but it doesn't INTEREST ME having said that I think you're all an awsum bunch
I intentionally gave a vague answer as I presumed we can post, reply, response in our own way we wished as long as it's not abusive ?
Of course you can. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I wrote: "Which is FINE, if you don't want to answer to question. But if you do [want to answer the question], it doesn't [answer anything]."
Again, in response to this, you graciously (unmerited favor from Allan, acting out of his good will, not out of compulsion and not because it was earned by me) answered the question.
A nice request from Raf would have gone a long way towards an even more detailed response...
My request was not nice? I think you're mixing my request up with the other guy's. You know, the one who actually challenged your assertion that God got you in. I never challenged that. So clearly you have my request for information mixed up with a question that was not as nice (to use your terminology). JavaJane made a really nice request. Your response was vague (to use Word Worlf's terminology) and abstract (to use mine). So I asked you to expound on it, and you did.
What exactly is the big deal here?
[No comment on the rest of your post, other than that you misspelled awesome. ]
Haven't been around this joint in a while. I see that the coffee is still pretty decent. Decided to stop by because my brain is starting to forget details from when I got involved in TWI... I was 12 when my mom got involved, so my story probably differs a lot from those who were not involved in TWI as children or adolescents. I am looking for examples of what draw you there in the first place and what was the point where you "sold out" to TWI's doctrine.
I remember seeing things that I thought were miracles at the time, but my brain can't access the information now. It's been almost ten years since I left. I guess that's a victory. I do remember seeing devil spirits behind everything, but I don't remember HOW I became convinced of that as truth.
Any stories would help - I won't share them specifically, but I could use some inspiration and a jogging of my own memories.
What drew me there was the love of God in the believers. Not just my first fellowship, but for years afterward. Sure, the leadership wanted you to agree with them, but they did NOT just kick people out if you didn't unquestioningly agree. Well, that dramatically changed in 1994. First they kicked you out of stuff if you didn't get out of debt. Then they kicked you out if, by way of "reasonable spiritual suspicion", they thought you were gay, then they kicked people out if they were guilty of "unproductive evil". Anybody who was left after that was either lucky or totally intimidated.
If you sell out to anything it has to be your idea. You can't be coerced into godly service. 1 Cor. 16:15 says those people had addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints. Nobody made them get committed. When I was a child the other kids in my neighborhood would sometimes try to get me to believe in their God. But all they seemed to know was that you'd go to hell if you didn't do what their minister said. I bailed as soon as twi told me I was welcome but my wife wasn't. Although I second guessed my decision at times, it was definitely the right decision.
In 1996 I talked briefly to someone who stayed with twi, convinced that LCM didn't invent the standards of seeing devil spirits everywhere. We didn't talk long. Staying in twi cost him his marriage. He left years ago and has remarried. I sense he's still hurt. I can't imagine what it's like to follow a religion only to escape hell, or wrath, or whatever.
I think I was the one who challenged the premise. I apologize. It just seemed rather pointless to me that God would get you into something, only to have to get you back out. You know, all that stuff about foreknowledge and whatnot. Seems like a better plan could have been found that didn't include all the unnecessary nonsense. Anyway, if it's stories you want, I'll try to put mine together. I don't get as much computer time as I used to so it might be a while.
God sent Elijah to the brook Cherith. When the brook dried up, He sent him to Zarephath. Why would God send him to the brook, if He knew it would dry up? Because the brook was the best place for Elijah AT THE TIME, and then it wasn't. Why would God get someone into TWI, then later get him out? Same reason.
God sent Elijah to the brook Cherith. When the brook dried up, He sent him to Zarephath. Why would God send him to the brook, if He knew it would dry up? Because the brook was the best place for Elijah AT THE TIME, and then it wasn't. Why would God get someone into TWI, then later get him out? Same reason.
George
Except that, in my opinion, The Way was never the best place for anyone. It was a cult, built on plagiarized works and the ego of VPW. It was already "dried up" when we got there.
Except that, in my opinion, The Way was never the best place for anyone. It was a cult, built on plagiarized works and the ego of VPW. It was already "dried up" when we got there.
That's certainly one way to look at it.. Personally, I think I learned a great deal from them. At least for myself, it wasn't completely "dried up", for there was something there for me to gain. May not have been in the area I thought I was gaining in at the time, but I certainly, today, look back, and am thankful for having learned a great deal.
I think of it much like Samuel being raised and trained by Eli and living with his ungodly kids. He certainly learned a great deal from that.
I think it'd be hard to find a place on this earth that doesn't lack any amount love, even within our own hearts and lives. It's an imperfect world and we learn to adapt and grow.
I had a great job, girlfriend, and a great friend explaining the scriptures to me before I joined. But I wanted more. Told God I would give everything I had if I could just learn His ways faster. And that's about the time I met some WOWs as I was studying the scriptures with a friend with an interlinear in hand and waiting for my girlfriend to get off of work. Doctrines weren't much different, so what was? Their passion for God. The things they said seemed to be all about God. Quotes, topics, beliefs, desires.. You name it, it was like hearing these kids that had a heart for Him. Outside of my older friend that was teaching me the scriptures, I hadn't heard anyone so hot. Within 3 months I had taken the class, went to the rock, and was on the WOW field myself. Never looked back. No, I didn't kick my old friends out. But being away in another state didn't help. And my older friend died that year I was away. I was as committed as could be. Until I joined the Corps and found nothing but spiders coming out of the noses. lol.. Actually, it was just within a few weeks, it was clear being there for Corp training that the upper leadership had an agenda, and God wasn't a part of it. So I left after graduation. It was 10 years in all.
That's a good story/account trust and obey ! same for me and my spouse...entered the corps and saw many things that didn't 'add up' so to speak...the beginning of the end
Except that, in my opinion, The Way was never the best place for anyone. It was a cult, built on plagiarized works and the ego of VPW. It was already "dried up" when we got there.
And you are certainly welcome to your opinion. It may not be universally shared, however.
God sent Elijah to the brook Cherith. When the brook dried up, He sent him to Zarephath. Why would God send him to the brook, if He knew it would dry up? Because the brook was the best place for Elijah AT THE TIME, and then it wasn't. Why would God get someone into TWI, then later get him out? Same reason.
George
True that we all see through a different lens. I would hope that an educated guy like you, George, would be able to see that your scenario/explanation is completely subjective and not at all linked to rational reasoning or logic. At minimum, because regardless of whether the biblical record is actually an accurate historical document, there's ZERO biblical declaration of the reasoning you set forth. It's just what you believe the verse you referred to implies.
First of all, I never said that I felt that God got me in and out of TWI. Allan did. I was just suggesting that Waysider's comment was unfair to Allan. If Waysider thinks that there was no good reason for him to have been in TWI, that's fine, for him. But it was wrong to imply that Allan's view was wrong, just because Waysider couldn't imagine godly involvement in Allan's choice to join TWI. I believe that I benefitted greatly from my time in TWI, especially early on. I got out while the getting was good. I don't know if God was involved in either my getting in or getting out. I can't rule out either.
This argument is precisely why I asked Allan to expound on his statement. I hope both the abstract statement and the more concrete explanations aid Java Jane in her writing
I never criticized Allan, I said I disagreed with his assessment. That's why I included "in my opinion". I also disagreed with the comparison being made to the brook incident because it's incongruous. The region of the brook was known to be fertile and plentiful with water in season and dry in the off season. That's a whole different scenario than what was experienced by many in The Way. It's not a valid comparison.
exactly JJ ! Talk is good, just let people say what they want to say, how they want to say it...Let's not forget that the whole site is or was originally about us and 'them' (twi). Even tho I may totally be at loggerheads with Wordwolf and Raf over some things, I respect them for what they do and even more for what they've done especially the honesty to get out of twi. I think people like myself and for example St.George who post our thinking about the good WE believe twi did for us at the time should be respected as well. We're just being honest, not trying to trick anyone into thinking the same as us, just being honest...the way WE see it...Long live Greasespot
Exactly WS...now...it's 4 p.m. on a beautiful sunny sunday afternoon ( approx. 70 o ) down here in Australia; I figure it's early hours there, wachu doing up lol
Thinking about it a bit more, it occurs to me that the likeminded exercises, such as retemory cards, may have increased our sense of commitment by way of self induced reinforcement.
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Allan
God got me involved, my own integrity kept me committed, Dave Lutz, Claudette Royal kept me sane, God got me out.
Allan
Not sure what you mean Johniam ? I'm glad for getting into it and I'm doubly glad for getting out lol
Allan
From what I see, how I see it, for my learning(in many many aspects, not just the good )and in furtherance of the gospel of Jesus Christ
Allan
I intentionally gave a vague answer as I presumed we can post, reply, response in our own way we wished as long as it's not abusive ? A nice request from Raf would have gone a long way towards an even more detailed response but then with a lot of topics to me , they are no more than a passing perusal type of interest anyway and I'll respond to the degree I'm interested. I certainly cannot be bothered sitting down in front of the keyboard sweating over every grammatical point and whether I've got the tense, verbs, adjectives, inflections correct ! If I was interested in that type of thing I would myself enrol in a writing course or some such...but it doesn't INTEREST ME
having said that I think you're all an awsum bunch 
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Raf
Of course you can. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I wrote: "Which is FINE, if you don't want to answer to question. But if you do [want to answer the question], it doesn't [answer anything]."
Again, in response to this, you graciously (unmerited favor from Allan, acting out of his good will, not out of compulsion and not because it was earned by me) answered the question.
My request was not nice? I think you're mixing my request up with the other guy's. You know, the one who actually challenged your assertion that God got you in. I never challenged that. So clearly you have my request for information mixed up with a question that was not as nice (to use your terminology). JavaJane made a really nice request. Your response was vague (to use Word Worlf's terminology) and abstract (to use mine). So I asked you to expound on it, and you did.
What exactly is the big deal here?
[No comment on the rest of your post, other than that you misspelled awesome.
]
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Allan
Thanks Raf, got ur p.m ...all gud
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excathedra
I've always wondered how all this happened as in god got me in and god me out. I actually feel I got closer to god and jesus Christ because of the way
and I feel the way or should I say wierwille frikkin destroyed me
I think there was a discussion about this years ago and George aar love him so much was a part of it
allan, would love to hear your story
thanks all
haven't been here for a while. dabbling a bit on the way corps site on facebook - nothing earth shattering except getting slammed a bit here and there
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excathedra
newlife and outie same here
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johniam
What drew me there was the love of God in the believers. Not just my first fellowship, but for years afterward. Sure, the leadership wanted you to agree with them, but they did NOT just kick people out if you didn't unquestioningly agree. Well, that dramatically changed in 1994. First they kicked you out of stuff if you didn't get out of debt. Then they kicked you out if, by way of "reasonable spiritual suspicion", they thought you were gay, then they kicked people out if they were guilty of "unproductive evil". Anybody who was left after that was either lucky or totally intimidated.
If you sell out to anything it has to be your idea. You can't be coerced into godly service. 1 Cor. 16:15 says those people had addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints. Nobody made them get committed. When I was a child the other kids in my neighborhood would sometimes try to get me to believe in their God. But all they seemed to know was that you'd go to hell if you didn't do what their minister said. I bailed as soon as twi told me I was welcome but my wife wasn't. Although I second guessed my decision at times, it was definitely the right decision.
In 1996 I talked briefly to someone who stayed with twi, convinced that LCM didn't invent the standards of seeing devil spirits everywhere. We didn't talk long. Staying in twi cost him his marriage. He left years ago and has remarried. I sense he's still hurt. I can't imagine what it's like to follow a religion only to escape hell, or wrath, or whatever.
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waysider
......or to escape becoming a grease spot by midnight.
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Bolshevik
Bait and switch?
or love-bombing?
(or is love-bombing part of bait and switch?)
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GeorgeStGeorge
God sent Elijah to the brook Cherith. When the brook dried up, He sent him to Zarephath. Why would God send him to the brook, if He knew it would dry up? Because the brook was the best place for Elijah AT THE TIME, and then it wasn't. Why would God get someone into TWI, then later get him out? Same reason.
George
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waysider
Except that, in my opinion, The Way was never the best place for anyone. It was a cult, built on plagiarized works and the ego of VPW. It was already "dried up" when we got there.
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TrustAndObey
That's certainly one way to look at it.. Personally, I think I learned a great deal from them. At least for myself, it wasn't completely "dried up", for there was something there for me to gain. May not have been in the area I thought I was gaining in at the time, but I certainly, today, look back, and am thankful for having learned a great deal.
I think of it much like Samuel being raised and trained by Eli and living with his ungodly kids. He certainly learned a great deal from that.
I think it'd be hard to find a place on this earth that doesn't lack any amount love, even within our own hearts and lives. It's an imperfect world and we learn to adapt and grow.
I had a great job, girlfriend, and a great friend explaining the scriptures to me before I joined. But I wanted more. Told God I would give everything I had if I could just learn His ways faster. And that's about the time I met some WOWs as I was studying the scriptures with a friend with an interlinear in hand and waiting for my girlfriend to get off of work. Doctrines weren't much different, so what was? Their passion for God. The things they said seemed to be all about God. Quotes, topics, beliefs, desires.. You name it, it was like hearing these kids that had a heart for Him. Outside of my older friend that was teaching me the scriptures, I hadn't heard anyone so hot. Within 3 months I had taken the class, went to the rock, and was on the WOW field myself. Never looked back. No, I didn't kick my old friends out. But being away in another state didn't help. And my older friend died that year I was away. I was as committed as could be. Until I joined the Corps and found nothing but spiders coming out of the noses. lol.. Actually, it was just within a few weeks, it was clear being there for Corp training that the upper leadership had an agenda, and God wasn't a part of it. So I left after graduation. It was 10 years in all.
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Allan
That's a good story/account trust and obey ! same for me and my spouse...entered the corps and saw many things that didn't 'add up' so to speak...the beginning of the end
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GeorgeStGeorge
And you are certainly welcome to your opinion. It may not be universally shared, however.
George
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waysider
And that's fine. We all see life through a slightly different lens than the next person..
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Rocky
True that we all see through a different lens. I would hope that an educated guy like you, George, would be able to see that your scenario/explanation is completely subjective and not at all linked to rational reasoning or logic. At minimum, because regardless of whether the biblical record is actually an accurate historical document, there's ZERO biblical declaration of the reasoning you set forth. It's just what you believe the verse you referred to implies.
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GeorgeStGeorge
First of all, I never said that I felt that God got me in and out of TWI. Allan did. I was just suggesting that Waysider's comment was unfair to Allan. If Waysider thinks that there was no good reason for him to have been in TWI, that's fine, for him. But it was wrong to imply that Allan's view was wrong, just because Waysider couldn't imagine godly involvement in Allan's choice to join TWI. I believe that I benefitted greatly from my time in TWI, especially early on. I got out while the getting was good. I don't know if God was involved in either my getting in or getting out. I can't rule out either.
George
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Raf
This argument is precisely why I asked Allan to expound on his statement. I hope both the abstract statement and the more concrete explanations aid Java Jane in her writing
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waysider
I never criticized Allan, I said I disagreed with his assessment. That's why I included "in my opinion". I also disagreed with the comparison being made to the brook incident because it's incongruous. The region of the brook was known to be fertile and plentiful with water in season and dry in the off season. That's a whole different scenario than what was experienced by many in The Way. It's not a valid comparison.
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Bolshevik
Did anyone get involved because of malfunctioning androids or mutant aliens? That's what I want to know.
Getting involved with TWI is a quick, conscious decision that must be made with haste. There is no vagueness.
Or not.
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JavaJane
Thanks for all the talk guys, keep it coming. Anecdotes, thoughts, whatever you got.
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Allan
exactly JJ ! Talk is good, just let people say what they want to say, how they want to say it...Let's not forget that the whole site is or was originally about us and 'them' (twi). Even tho I may totally be at loggerheads with Wordwolf and Raf over some things, I respect them for what they do and even more for what they've done especially the honesty to get out of twi. I think people like myself and for example St.George who post our thinking about the good WE believe twi did for us at the time should be respected as well. We're just being honest, not trying to trick anyone into thinking the same as us, just being honest...the way WE see it...Long live Greasespot
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waysider
"see things the way we see it."
Yes, that's a luxury that came at a price in The Way. All that "likeminded" talk was counterproductive to independent thinking and honest enquiry.
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Allan
Exactly WS...now...it's 4 p.m. on a beautiful sunny sunday afternoon ( approx. 70 o ) down here in Australia; I figure it's early hours there, wachu doing up lol
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waysider
Thinking about it a bit more, it occurs to me that the likeminded exercises, such as retemory cards, may have increased our sense of commitment by way of self induced reinforcement.
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