If the way that a husband treated his wife is supposed to personify how Christ tends his "bride", the church - wow, I don't want to know that Christ - as personified by VPW, LCM and other "leaders".
But as to how I see some church ministers today interact with their spouses - tenderly, courteously, respectfully, and giving appropriate honor - now, that's the Christ I want to know.
Was VPW as harsh as LCM? That was all hidden was it not?
A good teaching was not a good teaching unless there was harshness. Being harsh to another was a sign of spirituality. The harsher, the closer to truth.
People thanked each other for being harsh to one another. Harshness was expected.
With emotions and feelings considered unimportant, almost evil, and generally not allowed to be expressed, harsh anger was substituted in their place, was it not?
How could there be a relationship without the rod of correction?
Was VPW as harsh as LCM? That was all hidden was it not?
A good teaching was not a good teaching unless there was harshness. Being harsh to another was a sign of spirituality. The harsher, the closer to truth.
People thanked each other for being harsh to one another. Harshness was expected.
With emotions and feelings considered unimportant, almost evil, and generally not allowed to be expressed, harsh anger was substituted in their place, was it not?
How could there be a relationship without the rod of correction?
Fury is love. Fuzzy is evil.
Where do you think Martindale learned to be so harsh? Wierwille was, indeed, VERY harsh.
LCM took it to a new level, Rocky. The man was perpetually furious (aka spiritually angry). And his "teachings" were full of vitriol and vile language. (I learned some horrible swear words and expressions.) Yeah, LCM was a great Christian witness.
I think it's been said LCM just didn't know to hide it. VPW's old tapes were certainly full of bigotry. He just said it calmer. The greatest cargoes of evil come over quiet seas.
The silence in twi is always like thunder. People probably yelled at each other to drown out the noise.
What Bolshevik said, People thanked each other for being harsh........that just struck me. I did that.....a lot. In fact, when I got out of TWI and joined into another group, I was glad to see that they "yelled" a lot. Years Later I realized I equated harshness with love. If you were harsh and yelling at me, I knew you loved me. How screwed up is that? I can say, I no longer think that way...thank-you God!
During my 24-year twi involvement.....The most fiery, sustained confrontations from wierwille were leveled at dissenting leadership. Nothing else comparable to it! The most divisive, vicious, vein-popping, profanity-spewing and sustained-intensity periods of 'hatred' were unloaded in closed-corps meetings!! Three of such verbal attacks from wierwille are still vivid in my mind to this day.....
Talk about toxic examples......you haven't seen THE REAL WIERWILLE
In 1980, in the BRC.....a group of six were seated up front to share about their experiences and learning at "The Tracker" seminar where Tom Brown Jr. taught skills of tracking and survival. Remember, from 1976-1981, twi and, specifically, the corps program was heavily engaged in a sub-theme of "mobile abundant living" [MAL-packs] in a subversion of an American overthrow. Thus, some corps and others went to learn from the man who was "the master of tracking" - Tom Brown Jr.
During this BRC gathering, wierwille was seated near the front on the side. All six members had come prepared to share their learning experience to those of us, 90-120 people, in an evening gathering. Going down the line, each shared about ten minutes and how learning is exciting and all. BUT.....this nice, pleasant evening was just about to take a jaded turn as the fourth person shared his experience. He was 8th corps and had a deep enthusiasm for all-things nature, had built a small cabin years before, and an ego to match. Not sure if he spoke longer than his slotted time frame, but superlatives were attached to Tom Brown's skills and teaching. Tom Brown was the master, the man in the spotlight, the man to teach anyone about life and living!!
Well.....wiewille couldn't stand it any longer. With fire in his eyes, he jumped up and unloaded with vehement, frothing-at-the-mouth anger! This 8th corps guy was "POSSESSED," he thundered with a vengence. For a moment, I actually thought wierwille was going to throw a punch and deck the guy. He was that furious. He railed and railed. I found myself in a whirlwind of thoughts, "What the he!! is going on here? Is this guy really possessed? Are we going to see devil spirits cast out? Oh, my!" Wierwille thundered onward....there seemed to be no end.
Finally, the fury stopped as wierwille headed for the backroom of the BRC. The silence in the room was deafening as Johnnie T. came forward to tag-team the meltdown. Another ten minutes of justifying wierwille's fury and Johnnie dismissed us. As I walked back to my unit, I wondered why wierwille didn't cast out any spirits.....IF this guy was indeed possessed. My respect for wierwille had, once again, diminished in my eyes.
Amazingly, the head-to-head confrontation did NOT crush this 8th corps guy nor his testimony....in my opinion. And perhaps, that is why the confrontation lasted so long. WIERWILLE COULD NOT STAND ANOTHER MAN, TOM BROWN, LAUDED AS A GREAT MAN AND TEACHER.
Another Wierwille Confrontation...
While at headquarters my final year of inresidence corps......a nightowl was scheduled in the Way Woods. The night was pleasant and, as we walked past the George Jess memorial, a crackling fire welcomed us with curling flames and warmth. For me, I was thankful to be outdoors and soak in the sounds and smells of nature.
As always, the corps coordinator handles the initial stages of corps gatherings before wierwille steps in. This seems to be standard twi protocol, much like a warm-up band takes the stage before the marquee band takes the music and crowd to a whole new level. Anyways, that the way its always done....and probably, will stay. When wierwille enters, he takes his chair and is flanked by the corps coordinator. Another couple of logs are placed on the fire to set the atmosphere, and the crickets chirp in the woods.
About an hour into the nightowl, as the serenity of the evening was peaking....none of us could foresee what was about to erupt! In the shadows behind wierwille was his aide, his bodyguard whose two-way radio blurted and screeched in the quiet night air. The "atmosphere" of the whole evening came to an abrupt halt; a meticulously planned nightowl was broken in an instant. Wierwille could NOT contain his anger. He unleashed this tempest and castigated him relentlessly for about five minutes.
This bodyguard was the same man wierwille had praised months before by saying, "He stands by my side, because he doesn't take sh!t from no one." So, the irony of this night loomed large as wierwille couldn't help but verbally attack his right-hand man. Why couldn't vpw just cover for the mistake? Or, better yet.....call attention to it as a big ooops! and move on? What made it so awkward was that wierwille was "caught in the headlights" and couldn't adjust to the moment. So, his anger came front and center!! To me, this fury revealed wierwille's character....something he worked a lifetime to hide.
The bodyguard? From what I heard from hq-staffers the next day, he packed up and left.
Never saw him again.
The 3rd Wierwille Major Confrontation.....previously mentioned.
Sitting in the OSC Dining Room during Corps Night [those transition years moving from the BRC and waiting for the Auditorium to be built]........where wierwille was going thru his "literal translations according to usage" in the Book of Romans. While most corps took notes furiously, there were others in the back who didn't take these meetings quite so serious or spiritual.
Anyways..........about an hour into the corps meeting, and this 6th corps guy is starting to nod off. Problem was..... he was near the front, somewhere near the fourth or fifth row, and in eye-shot of wierwille. Well, the nodding increased and the closed-eyelids-duration was becoming visibly evident. And, even though a couple of nearby corps tried to help this fellow stay awake.........it just wasn't meant to be.
And, then it happened......wierwille's eyes fixed on a NODDING, DOZING CORPS GRAD who had the audacity, and no spirituality, to sleep while wierwille taught from Romans!!! This "act of disrespect" demanded the most intense verbal lashing that wierwille could muster......and thus it was. Red-faced with anger, and neck-veins visible...... wierwille launched into this tirade to strip bare every thread of self-worth that this corps grad had. On and on the verbal lashing went........not 20 stripes, not 25 stripes, not 30 stripes, not 35 stripes........BUT 39 VICIOUS, VERBAL STRIPES.......just one short of total and utter demoralization.
Wierwille's anger could not be contained.....he went back stage and Craig came out as if *to tag-team* the effort some more. It was horrendous and awful and disgraceful. Man, in hindsight.....I wish that I'd stood up and yelled at the top of my lungs........SHUT THE HECK UP AND LET HIM BE.
The corps guy was escorted from the room......and wierwille came back, after about 10 minutes, to finish his teaching. But we'd already SEEN his teaching and lifestyle......who needed to take more notes???
The next morning......word spread that the 6th Corps staff guy was fired and sent packing.
Need to add.......this corps guy, after seeking medical help awhile later, found out that he had a blood-sugar problem and he was treated for it. Prescription medicine helped him to not doze off. Guess wierwille nor martindale saw deep enough to HELP this guy
Skyrider is right on the mark. If you were ever in a private meeting with Wierwille, or in a corpse meeting, you witnessed his ungodly meanness. In those situations, if ever he was displeased about anything, he was not shy about it.
Twinky, I wasn't comparing the two "mogs."
Clearly, Wierwille showed Loy how to do it and that it was just fine to unload on people. Loy, of course, had a major problem with moderating his behavior.
This discussion seems to have gone in an unintended direction. My point was that many of us pattered our behavior, as it relates to interpersonal relationships, after examples that were toxic at the core. Because of the perceived importance of the position he filled, Wierwille should have been an example of how a husband should treat his wife. Instead, he was.....something else. So, when things went down the crapper, for some of us, we were left wondering how the modeled example failed us.
Shortened version: Trying to be the kind of husband that TWI prescribed was a recipe for failure. Fortunately, some people like to improvise on recipes.
Well.....of course, one could make the case that it's "a relevant aside"
to someone who is toxic and abusive. But then.....why stop there?
Other "relevant asides" could be psychological problems, socio-isolation,
child abuse, or a host of other asides.
Yet....you seem to be driving the nail on this alcohol issue.
But to state...."Then TWI is really all about the danger of alcohol" is
attempting to nail a narrative that sidetracks from this thread.
.
(with apologies to Waysider for any wrong direction here)
Twi lead people to a lot bad behavior. Behavior I remember to be considered normal. So how do you stop it? Prevent it? Why else would it be brought up?
The government would recognize alcohol as a problem. That could be a focus for change. VPW was an ...., add alcohol, a really big ..... Would things have been different without the drinking? Toxic behavior prevented? . . . Unless this thread is just to make lists. I like lists, that's fine. Sure I can help with a list.
" Would things have been different without the drinking? Toxic behavior prevented?"
It's all interwoven.Some of the toxic behavior involved alcohol abuse and some of it didn't involve alcohol abuse at all. Maybe some of Wierwille's unacceptable behavior was alcohol fueled and, then again, maybe he would have behaved poorly even when he was sober. I don't know. What I do know is that people who were at the lower end of the pecking order saw those who were at the higher end of the pecking order demonstrate a manner in which they treated their spouses. And, so, there was a kind of attitude present that said this must be the acceptable way to behave. It wasn't.
The whole marriage stuff in TWI was a mess. That being said, I am glad I am still with the guy I married there. We had some rough years at the beginning because of TWI doctrines about marriage. At one point my husband went to our area coordinator and asked for help because my husband felt that he (my husband) had been verbally abusive to me and he wanted help in stopping. He said the area coordinator just looked at him with a blank stare. He didn't know what to say... After all, a man is supposed to verbally abuse his wife, right? I mean, who didn't? And for that matter, we were encouraged to verbally abuse each other in the body of believers, right? CONFRONT.
We're working on ten years now. My husband and I have both grown and changed. He is more loving and caring than he has ever been. It took us both a long time and counselling to get the Way's ideas of marriage out of our heads. I had to learn to stand up for myself and treat myself as equal to my husband. I had to learn it was ok to not agree with every little thing all the time. He had to learn that I wasn't someone who was put on this earth to serve him in any way he saw fit.
I'm thankful we both went through the crap together, because we both understand our weird backgrounds and traumas. And when we have a flashback we can be there for each other knowing personally what the other person is going through. In many ways it made us better people.
Now if we could just fix the lost income from that time we'd be set.
....,the whole point of marriage is to Move the Word.........
This. I hadn't heard that quote since my first wife and I went through pre-marriage counseling, back in the mid '70s. It's sick...dedicating your life to the promotion of an abusive organization instead of pledging yourself to your spouse. And then, showing us how to do that by demonstrating defective marital techniques. No wonder so many Way marriages came apart at the seams.
When dating and girl . . . (We later married and divorced) . . . we had issues . . . and I still see those issues today. We of course would seek counsel . . . repeatedly . . . multiple counselors (All Way Corps of course) . . . They could not help us because we were not married . . . we were told that repeatedly . . . There's no was no real courtship in The Way. I think that's wrong.
Yes, there were men I looked up to to imitate. She looked up to the women. Both of us pointing fingers on how the other is to behave. But that's how everyone treated everyone in The Way. Marriage was nothing . . . unique. No different from the other types of relationships, if you can call those things relationships.
Marriage counseling. HA! We both went in with pens and notepaper. I don't think anything was written down. Not that I can remember.
You looked up to those men and women your whole life. If you didn't, they made sure you did.
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Twinky
If the way that a husband treated his wife is supposed to personify how Christ tends his "bride", the church - wow, I don't want to know that Christ - as personified by VPW, LCM and other "leaders".
But as to how I see some church ministers today interact with their spouses - tenderly, courteously, respectfully, and giving appropriate honor - now, that's the Christ I want to know.
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Bolshevik
Was VPW as harsh as LCM? That was all hidden was it not?
A good teaching was not a good teaching unless there was harshness. Being harsh to another was a sign of spirituality. The harsher, the closer to truth.
People thanked each other for being harsh to one another. Harshness was expected.
With emotions and feelings considered unimportant, almost evil, and generally not allowed to be expressed, harsh anger was substituted in their place, was it not?
How could there be a relationship without the rod of correction?
Fury is love. Fuzzy is evil.
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Rocky
Where do you think Martindale learned to be so harsh? Wierwille was, indeed, VERY harsh.
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Twinky
LCM took it to a new level, Rocky. The man was perpetually furious (aka spiritually angry). And his "teachings" were full of vitriol and vile language. (I learned some horrible swear words and expressions.) Yeah, LCM was a great Christian witness.
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Bolshevik
I think it's been said LCM just didn't know to hide it. VPW's old tapes were certainly full of bigotry. He just said it calmer. The greatest cargoes of evil come over quiet seas.
The silence in twi is always like thunder. People probably yelled at each other to drown out the noise.
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newlife
What Bolshevik said, People thanked each other for being harsh........that just struck me. I did that.....a lot. In fact, when I got out of TWI and joined into another group, I was glad to see that they "yelled" a lot. Years Later I realized I equated harshness with love. If you were harsh and yelling at me, I knew you loved me. How screwed up is that? I can say, I no longer think that way...thank-you God!
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skyrider
During my 24-year twi involvement.....The most fiery, sustained confrontations from wierwille were leveled at dissenting leadership. Nothing else comparable to it! The most divisive, vicious, vein-popping, profanity-spewing and sustained-intensity periods of 'hatred' were unloaded in closed-corps meetings!! Three of such verbal attacks from wierwille are still vivid in my mind to this day.....
Talk about toxic examples......you haven't seen THE REAL WIERWILLE
unless you were in closed-door meetings with him.
Check out the following thread.
Most Fiery Confrontations
.
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Rocky
Skyrider is right on the mark. If you were ever in a private meeting with Wierwille, or in a corpse meeting, you witnessed his ungodly meanness. In those situations, if ever he was displeased about anything, he was not shy about it.
Twinky, I wasn't comparing the two "mogs."
Clearly, Wierwille showed Loy how to do it and that it was just fine to unload on people. Loy, of course, had a major problem with moderating his behavior.
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Bolshevik
Wierwille was a drunk? No? . . . or was he taught it too? By George S Patton maybe?
Then TWI is really all about the danger of alcohol.
Amazing how thousands were eager to learn this behavior.
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WordWolf
wierwille WAS a drunk. It doesn't matter how he started being one,
but he certainly was one by the time he hijacked the hippies.
That's not the reason twi's toxic- it was just another symptom of the toxicity of twi,
because vpw's narcissism and sociopathic issues are WHY he had no problem
drinking all the time AND doing the other things that ruined the lives of others.
And yes, some people did their best to emulate all of vpw's behavior- like trying to
like his alcohol and cigarette brands, and yell at people and claim it's because he
cared and they could take it, and so on.
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Bolshevik
His drinking could have certainly been a catalyst, though, yes?
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Rocky
Not really relevant to this discussion.
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Bolshevik
Toxic behavior . . . alcohol . . . yes it's a relevant aside.
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skyrider
Well.....of course, one could make the case that it's "a relevant aside"
to someone who is toxic and abusive. But then.....why stop there?
Other "relevant asides" could be psychological problems, socio-isolation,
child abuse, or a host of other asides.
Yet....you seem to be driving the nail on this alcohol issue.
But to state...."Then TWI is really all about the danger of alcohol" is
attempting to nail a narrative that sidetracks from this thread.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
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waysider
This discussion seems to have gone in an unintended direction. My point was that many of us pattered our behavior, as it relates to interpersonal relationships, after examples that were toxic at the core. Because of the perceived importance of the position he filled, Wierwille should have been an example of how a husband should treat his wife. Instead, he was.....something else. So, when things went down the crapper, for some of us, we were left wondering how the modeled example failed us.
Shortened version: Trying to be the kind of husband that TWI prescribed was a recipe for failure. Fortunately, some people like to improvise on recipes.
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Bolshevik
(with apologies to Waysider for any wrong direction here)
Twi lead people to a lot bad behavior. Behavior I remember to be considered normal. So how do you stop it? Prevent it? Why else would it be brought up?
The government would recognize alcohol as a problem. That could be a focus for change. VPW was an ...., add alcohol, a really big ..... Would things have been different without the drinking? Toxic behavior prevented? . . . Unless this thread is just to make lists. I like lists, that's fine. Sure I can help with a list.
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waysider
" Would things have been different without the drinking? Toxic behavior prevented?"
It's all interwoven.Some of the toxic behavior involved alcohol abuse and some of it didn't involve alcohol abuse at all. Maybe some of Wierwille's unacceptable behavior was alcohol fueled and, then again, maybe he would have behaved poorly even when he was sober. I don't know. What I do know is that people who were at the lower end of the pecking order saw those who were at the higher end of the pecking order demonstrate a manner in which they treated their spouses. And, so, there was a kind of attitude present that said this must be the acceptable way to behave. It wasn't.
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Bolshevik
Okay, the whole point of marriage is to Move the Word. The Word, The Bible, is violent. Is it not?
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JavaJane
The whole marriage stuff in TWI was a mess. That being said, I am glad I am still with the guy I married there. We had some rough years at the beginning because of TWI doctrines about marriage. At one point my husband went to our area coordinator and asked for help because my husband felt that he (my husband) had been verbally abusive to me and he wanted help in stopping. He said the area coordinator just looked at him with a blank stare. He didn't know what to say... After all, a man is supposed to verbally abuse his wife, right? I mean, who didn't? And for that matter, we were encouraged to verbally abuse each other in the body of believers, right? CONFRONT.
We're working on ten years now. My husband and I have both grown and changed. He is more loving and caring than he has ever been. It took us both a long time and counselling to get the Way's ideas of marriage out of our heads. I had to learn to stand up for myself and treat myself as equal to my husband. I had to learn it was ok to not agree with every little thing all the time. He had to learn that I wasn't someone who was put on this earth to serve him in any way he saw fit.
I'm thankful we both went through the crap together, because we both understand our weird backgrounds and traumas. And when we have a flashback we can be there for each other knowing personally what the other person is going through. In many ways it made us better people.
Now if we could just fix the lost income from that time we'd be set.
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Rocky
I'm totally on board with what Waysider has posted in this thread. And I think JavaJane's comment above is wonderfully on the mark.
I still don't get what Bolshevik's ultimately getting at.
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Bolshevik
Maybe YOU don't need to. You can block out my posts can't you? I don't think there's any learning between us.
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waysider
This. I hadn't heard that quote since my first wife and I went through pre-marriage counseling, back in the mid '70s. It's sick...dedicating your life to the promotion of an abusive organization instead of pledging yourself to your spouse. And then, showing us how to do that by demonstrating defective marital techniques. No wonder so many Way marriages came apart at the seams.
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Bolshevik
When dating and girl . . . (We later married and divorced) . . . we had issues . . . and I still see those issues today. We of course would seek counsel . . . repeatedly . . . multiple counselors (All Way Corps of course) . . . They could not help us because we were not married . . . we were told that repeatedly . . . There's no was no real courtship in The Way. I think that's wrong.
Yes, there were men I looked up to to imitate. She looked up to the women. Both of us pointing fingers on how the other is to behave. But that's how everyone treated everyone in The Way. Marriage was nothing . . . unique. No different from the other types of relationships, if you can call those things relationships.
Marriage counseling. HA! We both went in with pens and notepaper. I don't think anything was written down. Not that I can remember.
You looked up to those men and women your whole life. If you didn't, they made sure you did.
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Rocky
Why would I need to block you? And more to the point, if you don't care whether anyone has any idea what you are trying to communicate, why bother?
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