Why even believe in God at all if He can't even give the increase on your ABS? What CAN God do if He can't do that?
God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.
WHY SHOULD HE?
Why even believe in God at all if He can't protect someone who jumps off the pinnacle of the temple
and trusts God to protect him from a fall?
God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.
WHY SHOULD HE?
You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.
First of all, it's clear you're talking about a TITHE of 10%.
That's a subject that's been covered in the Bible-with different conclusions than in pfal/twi.
Christians have NEVER been required to tithe, or even REQUESTED to do so.
Go ahead, check the entire New Testament.
There's requests for donations to help other Christians on a one-time basis.
There's a warning AGAINST required monies.
There's no required tithe.
So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you
specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-
is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of
the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever.
VP said it best. He said 9/10 with God's blessings on it will go farther than 10/10ths without.
Chapter and verse, please. What verse says that Christians are required to give the Tenth/Tithe
and that God will guarantee to bless the other 90% if they do?
It was a self-serving doctrine that sure benefited the man who was on the receiving end of the 10%.
He also said tithing without recognition of God's goodness and love is sheer folly. What, exactly, is 'recognition of God's goodness and love'? How about just taking time to be thankful for stuff. I can be as grumpy and whiny as anybody, but there's much to be thankful for. Every single day is a gift from God.
I can get behind that-but that has nothing to do with requiring a mandatory Tenth/Tithe
from the Christians.
If God doesn't directly do anything to bless your life, then religion is vain. All you get from going to church is the same false moral superiority that the guy gets from going to the bar. No difference.
Is He required to bless your life in the fashion YOU specify?
Anyone who gives out of free will, whether it's one percent or 50 percent or more or less, is Biblically justified in doing so. The standard for giving in the New Testament for Christians is not a percentage, but a personal consideration based on faith, speech, knowledge, diligence and love. (Read ii Corinthians 8 for the build up to and follow through on this instruction).
Using someone's level of giving as a basis for criticizing him or her for not believing enough or not loving enough is an intrusion on that person's privacy. The Bible never instructs Christians to evaluate someone else's practice of giving. Only your own.
when I was in TWI, I faithfully ABS'd 10 to 15% of my income the whole time I was there. I did not see any increase in my finances or the physical conditions in my life. I will concede that I don't know what was prevented by abundant sharing. I do believe that God takes care of us and blesses us because he is God and we are his children, not necessarily because of an amount on money we give to whoever. Why was TWI the magical place to give our money?
I no longer ABS and God takes care of me just the same. I am better off now regarding my income and lifestyle than I ever was when in TWI. The 15% doesn't go to TWI anymore and I haven't seen any repercussions. I think TWI used us.
I still give to certain charitable organizations by my own free will, whether I am blessed to or not, it's simply because I believe in what they are doing. Maybe I am blessed for that, and maybe I'm not.
I just don't think it was right for TWI to threaten us with catastrophe if we did not give them a percentage of our income.
Why even believe in God at all if He can't even give the increase on your ABS? What CAN God do if He can't do that?
VP said it best. He said 9/10 with God's blessings on it will go farther than 10/10ths without. He also said tithing without recognition of God's goodness and love is sheer folly. What, exactly, is 'recognition of God's goodness and love'? How about just taking time to be thankful for stuff. I can be as grumpy and whiny as anybody, but there's much to be thankful for. Every single day is a gift from God.
If God doesn't directly do anything to bless your life, then religion is vain. All you get from going to church is the same false moral superiority that the guy gets from going to the bar. No difference.
Teaching you that concept "VP said it best." was how the guy made his living. The more people he could pull the wool over their eyes, with that schtick, the more money Wierwille made.
Teaching you that concept "VP said it best." was how the guy made his living. The more people he could pull the wool over their eyes, with that schtick, the more money Wierwille made.
That's certainly true.
He often had a clever turn of phrase and could say things in a memorable fashion.
Often, however, it SOUNDED right but was actually incorrect.
With his audience convinced ahead of time that he had a special, inside track to
God Almighty, and a great track record with God Almighty, they were primed to
treat his every utterance as the last word on a subject and never open to
disagreement or discussion as to whether it WAS correct.
Y'all act like God won't spit in my direction if I am loyal to anything at all associated with twi. I'll be back later, but I have to go to work.
No one said that. It's merely being pointed out that ABS is not a Biblical doctrine. Wierwille was wrong. I suspect, though, that he knew he was wrong and just didn't care. It fit too nicely into his little con game.
You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.
One question. Wordwold, where have you been all my life? Finally, someone can tell me what questions to ask and what thing(s) to look at. Even twi was not THAT controlling.
Romans 7:12 - Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The tithe is part of that law. Why wouldn't someone want to do something God says is holy and just and good? If anybody's looking at the wrong thing, it's those who say ABS is only about twi's money.
You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.
One question. Wordwold, where have you been all my life? Finally, someone can tell me what questions to ask and what thing(s) to look at. Even twi was not THAT controlling.
You're making another mistake by skipping something important,
and elevating something minor while skipping something critical.
I showed exactly WHAT and HOW. You're welcome.
I noticed you completely skipped over it.
Actually, twi WAS that controlling, because questioning the twi system was so verboten,
some people can't do it DECADES LATER. Lots of questions were encouraged-
all about everyone else's belief systems.
I didn't tell you that you COULDN'T look at anything-just that the emphasis was wrong
and you skipped something important in the process, and that led to the mistake
I pointed out...which you skipped over.
Anybody can make a mistake of focusing on the wrong thing. Many, if they figure it
out, or someone points it out, can correct their thinking and practices.
Others, apparently, resent the idea of growing and getting wiser if it doesn't agree
with their previous belief system.
Romans 7:12 - Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The tithe is part of that law.
A) As vpw himself pointed out (didn't you do the required reading in
"Christians Should Be Prosperous"?) , the tithe wasn't introduced during the law.
The ONE time it was done, it was done during "the Patriarch Administration."
B) The Mosaic Law doesn't specify a tithe.
C) If you're going to say something should be done because it was in The Law,
then you are required to follow THE WHOLE LAW,
and I KNOW you'd never even consider that.
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Have you even READ the Bible in the past few decades,
or has it all just been vpw's commentaries and teachings?
Why wouldn't someone want to do something God says is holy and just and good? If anybody's looking at the wrong thing, it's those who say ABS is only about twi's money.
Galatians 2:11ff
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:1-25
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
MUCH OF THE ENTIRE EPISTLE explains why Christians aren't under the Law.
So, it wouldn't apply to us,
IF THE TITHE HAD BEEN UNDER THE LAW, which it doesn't even have that justification.
I noticed you turned "the Law was nice" into "we should pay a tithe"
without quoting any verse about a tithe,
and with no other connection between them other than
"I say the tithe was part of the law".
And you're saying "we should keep THIS ONE PART of the law but skip all the parts
It would be accurate to say there is an incident of tithing (giving of 10%) cited in the Bible. It would not be accurate to say it is a doctrine or that it is required. It just isn't. It follows suit, then, that giving beyond 10% (ABS/abundant sharing) is not Biblical, either. You can't go beyond a nonexistent doctrine.
Giving because you have a desire to do so, on the other hand, is addressed in the scriptures and encouraged. You are free to do so if that's what you choose to do.
I Abundantly shared in TWI.....not cheerfully at all. In fact, I dreaded doing it.
When I got out of TWI, I did not share with a ministry or person.
After awhile, I sent some money to two ministries. Not on a regular basis or anything, but occasionally.
Last year, I decided to prove the "giving" method. I started sending a certain amount of money to a ministry. My finances increased so much I couldn't believe it. What it did for me was to finally trust God in this area.
Recently, a friend had a need and she told me about it. I got up the next day and God put it on my heart to send some money to her. Then probably like 15-20 minutes, I had sat down to read the Bible and I asked God to show me something, which I always do. And He took me to 2nd Corinthians 8 & 9. I had never really read that with any effort to get a message, but it just came alive to me. Meeting the saint's needs. And then the promises that were stated, that I would have all suffiency in everything. That He would multiply my seed so I would even have more to give. That it's for an equality...so everyone has what they need. It really got me all excited. Then I just started reading Acts.....and the 3,000 that believed and were saved.....how they, the 3,000 had all things common. And they would sell their possessions to meet other needs of the saints. I started combing the book of Acts for more and it's there. It really thrilled me.
I don't think we are under law at all. But, I think we have the promises about giving. Do you have to give in order to have God take care of you and give you blessings. No....I don't believe so. Because for years I didn't and I was taken care of by God. The difference is I am receiving more blessings now than I ever have. I am a lot happier now then when I was trying to hold onto my money out of fear that I wouldn't have enough. I have more than enough now.
This is my experience with it. I'm sure others will say it never worked for them. I have no comment about that person's experience. I can only share my experience. . My heart about this matter has changed dramatically than when I was in TWI. I am a much happier person and I am so glad that I decided to try it.
Here's a thought. How about just giving just because we're all part of this world instead of trying to actuate a formula to get "blessed"? How about giving because you believe in what someone else is doing instead of wondering if it's Biblical, or right or if you'll receive a blessing? Isn't giving money just in order to receive a blessing sort of selfish? So how about giving without looking for a result and just being thankful that you have something to give?
A lot of people hold on to their finances for dear life to save up for a vacation or something while someone across town is freezing because they can't pay their electric bill. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with saving money for a vacation but I think we should always have a mind to contribute to those in need. There's no pat answer or set percentage.
Do I think God is impressed because of my small act of giving? I don't think so. I'm fortunate to have a job. I went for a long time without one. I'm fortunate to have central heat. Personally, and this is just me I'm not saying others should follow in this vain, I think it's my responsibility to give. I don't have what little I have because of anything I've done or accomplished. I think I should share what I can to help others. I have the strength and mental capacity to make a living. Some don't and through no fault of their own (sorry republicans). I don't make a great deal of money by American standards.
One of my favorite parts of the Bible is when Pilate tells Jesus he has the power of life or death over him. Jesus answers that Pilate has nothing that wasn't given to him by someone else. The same is true for me. I don't have a damn thing that wasn't given to me, neither does anyone else really. So I share.
Is there a verse in the Bible that requires a Christian to give a certain set percent of his income to his church? No. Is there discussion and instruction on giving in Bible? I believe there is.
And, though I have no Biblical evidence to support this, I feel that money given in love, from a thankful heart, achieves more than money given merely from obligation.
I know this thread is in context of tithing (money) but what about tithing YOUR TIME? Genuinely getting involved in people's lives in a helpful way - at Foodbank, hospices, hospitals, worthy charities? Involved in your church's outreach program (and I don't mean door knocking)?
What about giving your surplus THINGS - we have so much in material terms! How many coats, sweaters, pairs of shoes, etc do you have, and how many do you really need?
(I challenge myself...I reckon I could give away a tenth of my clothes and household clutter, and still have too much)
*And He wants to back up His word if people will believe it.
WHY SHOULD HE?
*Why shouldn't He?
Why even believe in God at all if He can't protect someone who jumps off the pinnacle of the temple
and trusts God to protect him from a fall?
*Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. ABS is not tempting God, it's proving now herewith.
God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.
WHY SHOULD HE?
*He shouldn't, for the above stated reason.
You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.
*Already addressed.
First of all, it's clear you're talking about a TITHE of 10%.
*Not exclusively; I said 9/10 with God's blessing on it will go farther than 10/10ths without. You said God can do whatever He wants. Couldn't He bless more than 10%?
That's a subject that's been covered in the Bible-with different conclusions than in pfal/twi.
Christians have NEVER been required to tithe, or even REQUESTED to do so.
*Show me in my first post where I said ABS was required.
Go ahead, check the entire New Testament.
*Jesus said give and it shall be given unto you. You think this doesn't include money? Why should God bless this or back it up? Because He has integrity. Because God is not a wrathful God. He wants to bless people.
There's requests for donations to help other Christians on a one-time basis.
There's a warning AGAINST required monies.
There's no required tithe.
So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you
specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-
is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of
the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever.
*Just because YOU expect God to do whatever whenever doesn't mean He will, just to satisfy your narrow minded opinion of Him.
Chapter and verse, please. What verse says that Christians are required to give the Tenth/Tithe
and that God will guarantee to bless the other 90% if they do?
It was a self-serving doctrine that sure benefited the man who was on the receiving end of the 10%.
I can get behind that-but that has nothing to do with requiring a mandatory Tenth/Tithe
from the Christians.
Is He required to bless your life in the fashion YOU specify?
Is it YOUR will be done, or HIS will be done?
*If my God was as big of a jerk as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one.
You're arguing about a man made doctrine and defending it like it's an edict from on high. The whole "9/10th will go farther...." thing is just some made up mumbo jumbo that sounds real official but isn't.
After over a decade of using the GSC, you know how to correctly use the "quote" system by now,
but it's obvious you refuse to do so CORRECTLY.
You melded your comments into mine, which makes it hard for people to see what it is I said,
and what comments you're interspersing.
That isn't fair to the person you're quoting, and it's not fair to those who try to read later what
you OR they wrote. Laziness, or intent to confuse the issues?
It's one or the other. I show you AND them more courtesy by making the effort to distinguish
between what I wrote and what you wrote.
You're continuing to make the assertion that your tithe/tenth/"ABS" is something determined
by God Almighty, and not, as was shown, something taught by a man who had a vested interest
in you handing over 10% (and more) of your income to him. When you elevate what any man
said-yourself or any other man- and treat THAT as a commandment from GOD ALMIGHTY,
then you inflict a standard on God Almighty that He never stipulated to and expect Him to
conform to it. As I said, that's "YOUR will be done" and not "HIS will be done."
You're confusing a God who will do what HE promised He will do with a God who will do
what YOU promised He will do. And you're determined to keep confusing the two.
Me:"God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants."
You: "And He wants to back up His word if people will believe it."
But it wasn't HIS word that mandated a tithe/tenth/ABS, it was yours and vpw's.
God Almighty will back up HIS word, but he is under no requirement to back up YOURS.
me: "WHY SHOULD HE?" The context was God Almighty being expected to do literally
anything for any justification. You're claiming God Almighty WILL do all sorts of things
simply because He CAN do those things. Nobody works that way.
You CAN burn down your house today. Doesn't mean you WILL just because you CAN.
you: " *Why shouldn't He?"
That blithe ducking of this issues is dismissive and betrays even a basic lack of
undersanding of the very fundamental questions being MANGLED here.
Why shouldn't God Almghty just do whatever with no specific reason to do so?
God Almighty CAN turn your automobile into a herring while you're trying to go to work.
By your "logic", the question isn't "Why should He turn a car into a herring?" but
"Why shouldn't he turn a car into a herring?" It underlies an arbitary universe with a
moody, capricious God who changes things and overturns expectations about even
the most foundational laws of physics just because He can.
I'm sure that you never considered that's the logical destination for your conjecture,
nor even that it had one, just that you had some blithe comment to toss out
THOUGHTLESSLY so you had SOMETHING to reply.
When I pointed out clearly the same problem, I did it this way:
"God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.
WHY SHOULD HE?"
The "that" was the temptation Jesus faced on the roof.
you:"*He shouldn't, for the above stated reason."
So, the blithe comment above that you made was contradicted by the one
you made a few lines lower- 'Why shouldn't God do whatever, whenever'
became 'of course He shouldn't have in this instance.'
But was there a "stated reason" above? Let's see.
Me:"Why even believe in God at all if He can't protect someone who jumps off the pinnacle of the temple
and trusts God to protect him from a fall?"
As I later said,
"So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you
specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-
is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of
the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever. "
you: "*Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. ABS is not tempting God, it's proving now herewith."
Come, come! If you're trying to claim that the Tenth/Tithe/ "ABS" is required of the Christians,
and God Almighty promises results on this supposed remaining 90% after He gets His cut,
let's get some actual verses so we can see what you're misunderstanding so obviously.
The account of Jesus on the roof was specific enough-and famous enough- that there was no
misunderstanding here all around, but it's your position on the Tenth/Tithe/"ABS" that is in
question here- and specifically the verses that you claim specify a Christian is bound by it.
"You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing."
you: "*Already addressed."
No, ducked again.
Me: "First of all, it's clear you're talking about a TITHE of 10%."
*Not exclusively; I said 9/10 with God's blessing on it will go farther than 10/10ths without. You said God can do whatever He wants. Couldn't He bless more than 10%?"
I think, once again, you're not even clear what you're saying.
You're quoting a man on fractions and paying God Almighty His cut.
That amount, as is obvious from what you just said, is 10%.
You're disagreeing more to disagree, then claiming you're disagreeing
to go over a mandatory 10%. But your system starts with a
mandatory 10% (and can go up from there all the way to
"hand everything over except what you need to live on", aka vpw's "Plurality Giving."
And God CAN bless 100%, 90%, 11%, 10%, 1%, and -10%, if He wants to-
that's a non-issue. You're saying He takes His mandatory cut, and THEN
you get a blessing on the rest- but that He can take more than 10% and
bless on the rest. You're fogging the issue-which is that you're specifying
a mandatory cut where He did not.
me: "Christians have NEVER been required to tithe, or even REQUESTED to do so."
you: "Show me in my first post where I said ABS was required."
Now you're just fooling around.
If your current position, despite everything you've posted so far, is that any kind of
Tithe/Tenth/ABS is neither mandatory (required) to be done, nor mandatory to
be 10%-at minimum- say so outright and cut this
"you didn't catch me say outright that it IS required to give at least 10%"
silliness.
This is disrespectful to those communicating with you and those who come after
and try to make sense of these discussions.
you:"*Jesus said give and it shall be given unto you. You think this doesn't include money? Why should God bless this or back it up? Because He has integrity. Because God is not a wrathful God. He wants to bless people."
Let's see what he actually said.
"Luke 6:27-38 KJV
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
In context, it's obvious this is no promise about anyone-including God Almighty- paying you back
if you give. In fact, Jesus said the OPPOSITE in verses 34 and 35.
It was clear your understanding HAD to be flawed-and it was- because otherwise, you could have
just given almost all the cash that ever passed through your hands, and according to your
misunderstanding of the verse, God Almighty-or "men"- would have multiplied the amounts and made you
a wealthy man FINANCIALLY. Hasn't happened in all the decades you're believed it is supposed to.
Therefore, you didn't understand it. And, once again, a SINGLE VERSE DOCTRINE falls down when
read in its context- which said the OPPOSITE.
You: "Why should God bless this or back it up? Because He has integrity. Because God is not a wrathful God. He wants to bless people."
You're imposing something for God to "back up" that God never promised.
"Integrity" would mean consistency with what He has promised- and what He has NOT promised.
Since He did not promise that you giving out money means you get more back (which you claim he did),
it would violate His integrity to do it just because YOU said He would.
And He doesn't. As proof, I present your standard of living- which would be that of a millionaire or a
multi-millionaire if your system worked as you claim it would.
You've taken "God wants to bless people" and turned it into "God will prosper people if He gets
His cut" and you refuse to see it.
me: "There's requests for donations to help other Christians on a one-time basis.
There's a warning AGAINST required monies.
There's no required tithe.
So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you
specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-
is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of
the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever."
you:"Just because YOU expect God to do whatever whenever doesn't mean He will, just to satisfy your narrow minded opinion of Him."
Faulty reading skills suit you poorly.
I keep pointing out that God will NOT do whatever, whenever.
It's you that said that He WOULD do something with no other justification
than that He COULD do it. YOU are the one that requires Him to act in
accordance with your specifications. YOUR will be done.
And then you turned around and claimed I did that.
It's obvious who did it.
you: "*If my God was as big of a jerk as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one."
Really, the insults? If you had something of substance to offer,
the pithy sayings to beguile people wouldn't be coming out.
John
You're arguing about a man made doctrine and defending it like it's an edict from on high. The whole "9/10th will go farther...." thing is just some made up mumbo jumbo that sounds real official but isn't.
It's that simple. And it's STILL getting lost- for those determined to lose it.
Anyone who gives out of free will, whether it's one percent or 50 percent or more or less, is Biblically justified in doing so. The standard for giving in the New Testament for Christians is not a percentage, but a personal consideration based on faith, speech, knowledge, diligence and love. (Read ii Corinthians 8 for the build up to and follow through on this instruction).
*Agreed! VP said in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that there are 3 things which justify one person giving money to another person. 1) for merchandise, 2) for service, and 3) out of love, which can only be opened from the inside, as I said in my first post, not out of coercion.
Using someone's level of giving as a basis for criticizing him or her for not believing enough or not loving enough is an intrusion on that person's privacy. The Bible never instructs Christians to evaluate someone else's practice of giving. Only your own.
*I'll dispute you a bit on this one. Jesus told his disciples that a poor woman who gave 2 mites gave more than the pharissees, because she gave all her living while they only gave of their abundance. Maybe he wasn't "criticizing" their giving, but he definitely made a distinction.
when I was in TWI, I faithfully ABS'd 10 to 15% of my income the whole time I was there. I did not see any increase in my finances or the physical conditions in my life. I will concede that I don't know what was prevented by abundant sharing. I do believe that God takes care of us and blesses us because he is God and we are his children, not necessarily because of an amount on money we give to whoever. Why was TWI the magical place to give our money?
I no longer ABS and God takes care of me just the same. I am better off now regarding my income and lifestyle than I ever was when in TWI. The 15% doesn't go to TWI anymore and I haven't seen any repercussions. I think TWI used us.
I still give to certain charitable organizations by my own free will, whether I am blessed to or not, it's simply because I believe in what they are doing. Maybe I am blessed for that, and maybe I'm not.
I just don't think it was right for TWI to threaten us with catastrophe if we did not give them a percentage of our income.
*I don't have a problem with this. Sounds like you still try to acknowledge God in all your ways, including stewardship of money, and that God still honors this. ABS is between individuals and God. I never heard VP blur this. LCM didn't just threaten people with catastrophe about ABS, he once ranted about people not renewing their way mag subscriptions after the free one year subscription after taking pfal. He says you have money for HBO and Cinemax, but not for the way mag. He was mad, too. It's almost comical to think about now. The only bad consequences I, personally, have ever heard about coming to people regarding ABS are leaders spending ABS money on personal stuff. Makes me wonder about the current state of twi.
In the fellowship I now attend, we got some financial help in 2006, when much of St. Louis was without power for 8 days, to cover the cost of staying in motels. I'm sure we weren't the only ones, too. Also, in twi, I'm told that 85% of ABS went to HQ and 15% stayed in the limb. Other way around in the current fellowship. Nothing wrong with using ABS money to help people who have a need.
I like that you say, "Maybe I'm blessed for that, and maybe I'm not." In other words you trust God and you trust the people and organizations you give to and that's all you need to know and that's all anyone else needs to know.
You're arguing about a man made doctrine and defending it like it's an edict from on high. The whole "9/10th will go farther...." thing is just some made up mumbo jumbo that sounds real official but isn't.
The 9/10 will go farther isn't a doctrine, it's HORSE SENSE! If God is really involved, then 1/10 will go farther. Faith as a grain of mustard seed, remember? If God is really involved, everything is better. This doesn't compute for you because you no longer believe in God.
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skyrider
WordWolf......yes, it really is that simple. I always appreciate your insight and posts. You bring fair, objective analysis to the threads that I've visited. Thanks. One of the reasons why I, fin
outandabout
when I was in TWI, I faithfully ABS'd 10 to 15% of my income the whole time I was there. I did not see any increase in my finances or the physical conditions in my life. I will concede that I don't k
newlife
I Abundantly shared in TWI.....not cheerfully at all. In fact, I dreaded doing it. When I got out of TWI, I did not share with a ministry or person. After awhile, I sent some money to two ministrie
WordWolf
God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.
WHY SHOULD HE?
Why even believe in God at all if He can't protect someone who jumps off the pinnacle of the temple
and trusts God to protect him from a fall?
God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.
WHY SHOULD HE?
You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.
First of all, it's clear you're talking about a TITHE of 10%.
That's a subject that's been covered in the Bible-with different conclusions than in pfal/twi.
Christians have NEVER been required to tithe, or even REQUESTED to do so.
Go ahead, check the entire New Testament.
There's requests for donations to help other Christians on a one-time basis.
There's a warning AGAINST required monies.
There's no required tithe.
So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you
specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-
is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of
the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever.
Chapter and verse, please. What verse says that Christians are required to give the Tenth/Tithe
and that God will guarantee to bless the other 90% if they do?
It was a self-serving doctrine that sure benefited the man who was on the receiving end of the 10%.
I can get behind that-but that has nothing to do with requiring a mandatory Tenth/Tithe
from the Christians.
Is He required to bless your life in the fashion YOU specify?
Is it YOUR will be done, or HIS will be done?
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Raf
Anyone who gives out of free will, whether it's one percent or 50 percent or more or less, is Biblically justified in doing so. The standard for giving in the New Testament for Christians is not a percentage, but a personal consideration based on faith, speech, knowledge, diligence and love. (Read ii Corinthians 8 for the build up to and follow through on this instruction).
Using someone's level of giving as a basis for criticizing him or her for not believing enough or not loving enough is an intrusion on that person's privacy. The Bible never instructs Christians to evaluate someone else's practice of giving. Only your own.
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outandabout
when I was in TWI, I faithfully ABS'd 10 to 15% of my income the whole time I was there. I did not see any increase in my finances or the physical conditions in my life. I will concede that I don't know what was prevented by abundant sharing. I do believe that God takes care of us and blesses us because he is God and we are his children, not necessarily because of an amount on money we give to whoever. Why was TWI the magical place to give our money?
I no longer ABS and God takes care of me just the same. I am better off now regarding my income and lifestyle than I ever was when in TWI. The 15% doesn't go to TWI anymore and I haven't seen any repercussions. I think TWI used us.
I still give to certain charitable organizations by my own free will, whether I am blessed to or not, it's simply because I believe in what they are doing. Maybe I am blessed for that, and maybe I'm not.
I just don't think it was right for TWI to threaten us with catastrophe if we did not give them a percentage of our income.
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Rocky
Teaching you that concept "VP said it best." was how the guy made his living. The more people he could pull the wool over their eyes, with that schtick, the more money Wierwille made.
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WordWolf
That's certainly true.
He often had a clever turn of phrase and could say things in a memorable fashion.
Often, however, it SOUNDED right but was actually incorrect.
With his audience convinced ahead of time that he had a special, inside track to
God Almighty, and a great track record with God Almighty, they were primed to
treat his every utterance as the last word on a subject and never open to
disagreement or discussion as to whether it WAS correct.
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johniam
Y'all act like God won't spit in my direction if I am loyal to anything at all associated with twi. I'll be back later, but I have to go to work.
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waysider
No one said that. It's merely being pointed out that ABS is not a Biblical doctrine. Wierwille was wrong. I suspect, though, that he knew he was wrong and just didn't care. It fit too nicely into his little con game.
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Raf
What do you mean "y'all"? I did not address you, John
Maybe he meant "y'all without distinction." Or is that "y'all with a distinction"? Tough to keep track.
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johniam
quote:
You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing.
One question. Wordwold, where have you been all my life? Finally, someone can tell me what questions to ask and what thing(s) to look at. Even twi was not THAT controlling.
Romans 7:12 - Wherefore the law is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The tithe is part of that law. Why wouldn't someone want to do something God says is holy and just and good? If anybody's looking at the wrong thing, it's those who say ABS is only about twi's money.
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WordWolf
I noticed you completely avoided everything I actually said.
You asked specific questions.
I pointed out BIBLICAL problems with both the questions and the assumptions behind them.
Your response?
No "thank you", no "I hadn't thought of that."
You ducked the issues raised by your flawed system,
and dashed off a glib insult and a label,
which certainly is a neat excuse that allows you to think there WERE no issues
you just avoided.
I have noticed, over the decades, that a hallmark of
"being loyal to anything associated with twi" (really, being loyal to THEIR SYSTEM
as a whole and not just "ANYTHING" because technically I can be accused of being loyal
to some things of twi and technically it would stick)
has been to COMPLETELY SKIP OVER THE REAL ISSUES AND ERRORS with their system
and just slap a label on anyone who points out ERRORS AND CONTRADICTIONS TO THE BIBLE
in the twi/vpw system.
Hey- if you want to go to your grave determined to be loyal to a system or a man
AT THE EXPENSE OF BETRAYING GOD ALMIGHTY AND THE BIBLE,
then that's your business.
I will, however, call you on it.
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WordWolf
You're making another mistake by skipping something important,
and elevating something minor while skipping something critical.
I showed exactly WHAT and HOW. You're welcome.
I noticed you completely skipped over it.
Actually, twi WAS that controlling, because questioning the twi system was so verboten,
some people can't do it DECADES LATER. Lots of questions were encouraged-
all about everyone else's belief systems.
I didn't tell you that you COULDN'T look at anything-just that the emphasis was wrong
and you skipped something important in the process, and that led to the mistake
I pointed out...which you skipped over.
Anybody can make a mistake of focusing on the wrong thing. Many, if they figure it
out, or someone points it out, can correct their thinking and practices.
Others, apparently, resent the idea of growing and getting wiser if it doesn't agree
with their previous belief system.
A) As vpw himself pointed out (didn't you do the required reading in
"Christians Should Be Prosperous"?) , the tithe wasn't introduced during the law.
The ONE time it was done, it was done during "the Patriarch Administration."
B) The Mosaic Law doesn't specify a tithe.
C) If you're going to say something should be done because it was in The Law,
then you are required to follow THE WHOLE LAW,
and I KNOW you'd never even consider that.
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Have you even READ the Bible in the past few decades,
or has it all just been vpw's commentaries and teachings?
Galatians 2:11ff
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:1-25
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
MUCH OF THE ENTIRE EPISTLE explains why Christians aren't under the Law.
So, it wouldn't apply to us,
IF THE TITHE HAD BEEN UNDER THE LAW, which it doesn't even have that justification.
I noticed you turned "the Law was nice" into "we should pay a tithe"
without quoting any verse about a tithe,
and with no other connection between them other than
"I say the tithe was part of the law".
And you're saying "we should keep THIS ONE PART of the law but skip all the parts
I don't like."
Don't even pretend you're keeping THE WHOLE LAW.
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waysider
It would be accurate to say there is an incident of tithing (giving of 10%) cited in the Bible. It would not be accurate to say it is a doctrine or that it is required. It just isn't. It follows suit, then, that giving beyond 10% (ABS/abundant sharing) is not Biblical, either. You can't go beyond a nonexistent doctrine.
Giving because you have a desire to do so, on the other hand, is addressed in the scriptures and encouraged. You are free to do so if that's what you choose to do.
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newlife
I Abundantly shared in TWI.....not cheerfully at all. In fact, I dreaded doing it.
When I got out of TWI, I did not share with a ministry or person.
After awhile, I sent some money to two ministries. Not on a regular basis or anything, but occasionally.
Last year, I decided to prove the "giving" method. I started sending a certain amount of money to a ministry. My finances increased so much I couldn't believe it. What it did for me was to finally trust God in this area.
Recently, a friend had a need and she told me about it. I got up the next day and God put it on my heart to send some money to her. Then probably like 15-20 minutes, I had sat down to read the Bible and I asked God to show me something, which I always do. And He took me to 2nd Corinthians 8 & 9. I had never really read that with any effort to get a message, but it just came alive to me. Meeting the saint's needs. And then the promises that were stated, that I would have all suffiency in everything. That He would multiply my seed so I would even have more to give. That it's for an equality...so everyone has what they need. It really got me all excited. Then I just started reading Acts.....and the 3,000 that believed and were saved.....how they, the 3,000 had all things common. And they would sell their possessions to meet other needs of the saints. I started combing the book of Acts for more and it's there. It really thrilled me.
I don't think we are under law at all. But, I think we have the promises about giving. Do you have to give in order to have God take care of you and give you blessings. No....I don't believe so. Because for years I didn't and I was taken care of by God. The difference is I am receiving more blessings now than I ever have. I am a lot happier now then when I was trying to hold onto my money out of fear that I wouldn't have enough. I have more than enough now.
This is my experience with it. I'm sure others will say it never worked for them. I have no comment about that person's experience. I can only share my experience. . My heart about this matter has changed dramatically than when I was in TWI. I am a much happier person and I am so glad that I decided to try it.
My experience, my views....only.
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WordWolf
Few here would begrudge you for talking about getting a blessing from God.
We agree with you that the giving isn't MANDATORY.
We resent the policies requiring MANDATORY giving.
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Broken Arrow
Here's a thought. How about just giving just because we're all part of this world instead of trying to actuate a formula to get "blessed"? How about giving because you believe in what someone else is doing instead of wondering if it's Biblical, or right or if you'll receive a blessing? Isn't giving money just in order to receive a blessing sort of selfish? So how about giving without looking for a result and just being thankful that you have something to give?
A lot of people hold on to their finances for dear life to save up for a vacation or something while someone across town is freezing because they can't pay their electric bill. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with saving money for a vacation but I think we should always have a mind to contribute to those in need. There's no pat answer or set percentage.
Do I think God is impressed because of my small act of giving? I don't think so. I'm fortunate to have a job. I went for a long time without one. I'm fortunate to have central heat. Personally, and this is just me I'm not saying others should follow in this vain, I think it's my responsibility to give. I don't have what little I have because of anything I've done or accomplished. I think I should share what I can to help others. I have the strength and mental capacity to make a living. Some don't and through no fault of their own (sorry republicans). I don't make a great deal of money by American standards.
One of my favorite parts of the Bible is when Pilate tells Jesus he has the power of life or death over him. Jesus answers that Pilate has nothing that wasn't given to him by someone else. The same is true for me. I don't have a damn thing that wasn't given to me, neither does anyone else really. So I share.
Is there a verse in the Bible that requires a Christian to give a certain set percent of his income to his church? No. Is there discussion and instruction on giving in Bible? I believe there is.
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Twinky
Giving out of obligation - is just extortion.
Giving out of a thankful heart - is freeing.
And, though I have no Biblical evidence to support this, I feel that money given in love, from a thankful heart, achieves more than money given merely from obligation.
I know this thread is in context of tithing (money) but what about tithing YOUR TIME? Genuinely getting involved in people's lives in a helpful way - at Foodbank, hospices, hospitals, worthy charities? Involved in your church's outreach program (and I don't mean door knocking)?
What about giving your surplus THINGS - we have so much in material terms! How many coats, sweaters, pairs of shoes, etc do you have, and how many do you really need?
(I challenge myself...I reckon I could give away a tenth of my clothes and household clutter, and still have too much)
(Yep, I'm going to do some of that right now!)
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johniam
*If my God was as big of a jerk as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one.
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waysider
John
You're arguing about a man made doctrine and defending it like it's an edict from on high. The whole "9/10th will go farther...." thing is just some made up mumbo jumbo that sounds real official but isn't.
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WordWolf
After over a decade of using the GSC, you know how to correctly use the "quote" system by now,
but it's obvious you refuse to do so CORRECTLY.
You melded your comments into mine, which makes it hard for people to see what it is I said,
and what comments you're interspersing.
That isn't fair to the person you're quoting, and it's not fair to those who try to read later what
you OR they wrote. Laziness, or intent to confuse the issues?
It's one or the other. I show you AND them more courtesy by making the effort to distinguish
between what I wrote and what you wrote.
You're continuing to make the assertion that your tithe/tenth/"ABS" is something determined
by God Almighty, and not, as was shown, something taught by a man who had a vested interest
in you handing over 10% (and more) of your income to him. When you elevate what any man
said-yourself or any other man- and treat THAT as a commandment from GOD ALMIGHTY,
then you inflict a standard on God Almighty that He never stipulated to and expect Him to
conform to it. As I said, that's "YOUR will be done" and not "HIS will be done."
You're confusing a God who will do what HE promised He will do with a God who will do
what YOU promised He will do. And you're determined to keep confusing the two.
Me:"God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants."
You: "And He wants to back up His word if people will believe it."
But it wasn't HIS word that mandated a tithe/tenth/ABS, it was yours and vpw's.
God Almighty will back up HIS word, but he is under no requirement to back up YOURS.
me: "WHY SHOULD HE?" The context was God Almighty being expected to do literally
anything for any justification. You're claiming God Almighty WILL do all sorts of things
simply because He CAN do those things. Nobody works that way.
You CAN burn down your house today. Doesn't mean you WILL just because you CAN.
you: " *Why shouldn't He?"
That blithe ducking of this issues is dismissive and betrays even a basic lack of
undersanding of the very fundamental questions being MANGLED here.
Why shouldn't God Almghty just do whatever with no specific reason to do so?
God Almighty CAN turn your automobile into a herring while you're trying to go to work.
By your "logic", the question isn't "Why should He turn a car into a herring?" but
"Why shouldn't he turn a car into a herring?" It underlies an arbitary universe with a
moody, capricious God who changes things and overturns expectations about even
the most foundational laws of physics just because He can.
I'm sure that you never considered that's the logical destination for your conjecture,
nor even that it had one, just that you had some blithe comment to toss out
THOUGHTLESSLY so you had SOMETHING to reply.
When I pointed out clearly the same problem, I did it this way:
"God Almighty CAN do that whenever He wants.
WHY SHOULD HE?"
The "that" was the temptation Jesus faced on the roof.
you:"*He shouldn't, for the above stated reason."
So, the blithe comment above that you made was contradicted by the one
you made a few lines lower- 'Why shouldn't God do whatever, whenever'
became 'of course He shouldn't have in this instance.'
But was there a "stated reason" above? Let's see.
Me:"Why even believe in God at all if He can't protect someone who jumps off the pinnacle of the temple
and trusts God to protect him from a fall?"
As I later said,
"So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you
specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-
is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of
the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever. "
you: "*Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. ABS is not tempting God, it's proving now herewith."
Come, come! If you're trying to claim that the Tenth/Tithe/ "ABS" is required of the Christians,
and God Almighty promises results on this supposed remaining 90% after He gets His cut,
let's get some actual verses so we can see what you're misunderstanding so obviously.
The account of Jesus on the roof was specific enough-and famous enough- that there was no
misunderstanding here all around, but it's your position on the Tenth/Tithe/"ABS" that is in
question here- and specifically the verses that you claim specify a Christian is bound by it.
"You're asking the wrong questions because you're looking at the wrong thing."
you: "*Already addressed."
No, ducked again.
Me: "First of all, it's clear you're talking about a TITHE of 10%."
*Not exclusively; I said 9/10 with God's blessing on it will go farther than 10/10ths without. You said God can do whatever He wants. Couldn't He bless more than 10%?"
I think, once again, you're not even clear what you're saying.
You're quoting a man on fractions and paying God Almighty His cut.
That amount, as is obvious from what you just said, is 10%.
You're disagreeing more to disagree, then claiming you're disagreeing
to go over a mandatory 10%. But your system starts with a
mandatory 10% (and can go up from there all the way to
"hand everything over except what you need to live on", aka vpw's "Plurality Giving."
And God CAN bless 100%, 90%, 11%, 10%, 1%, and -10%, if He wants to-
that's a non-issue. You're saying He takes His mandatory cut, and THEN
you get a blessing on the rest- but that He can take more than 10% and
bless on the rest. You're fogging the issue-which is that you're specifying
a mandatory cut where He did not.
me: "Christians have NEVER been required to tithe, or even REQUESTED to do so."
you: "Show me in my first post where I said ABS was required."
Now you're just fooling around.
If your current position, despite everything you've posted so far, is that any kind of
Tithe/Tenth/ABS is neither mandatory (required) to be done, nor mandatory to
be 10%-at minimum- say so outright and cut this
"you didn't catch me say outright that it IS required to give at least 10%"
silliness.
This is disrespectful to those communicating with you and those who come after
and try to make sense of these discussions.
you:"*Jesus said give and it shall be given unto you. You think this doesn't include money? Why should God bless this or back it up? Because He has integrity. Because God is not a wrathful God. He wants to bless people."
Let's see what he actually said.
"Luke 6:27-38 KJV
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
In context, it's obvious this is no promise about anyone-including God Almighty- paying you back
if you give. In fact, Jesus said the OPPOSITE in verses 34 and 35.
It was clear your understanding HAD to be flawed-and it was- because otherwise, you could have
just given almost all the cash that ever passed through your hands, and according to your
misunderstanding of the verse, God Almighty-or "men"- would have multiplied the amounts and made you
a wealthy man FINANCIALLY. Hasn't happened in all the decades you're believed it is supposed to.
Therefore, you didn't understand it. And, once again, a SINGLE VERSE DOCTRINE falls down when
read in its context- which said the OPPOSITE.
You: "Why should God bless this or back it up? Because He has integrity. Because God is not a wrathful God. He wants to bless people."
You're imposing something for God to "back up" that God never promised.
"Integrity" would mean consistency with what He has promised- and what He has NOT promised.
Since He did not promise that you giving out money means you get more back (which you claim he did),
it would violate His integrity to do it just because YOU said He would.
And He doesn't. As proof, I present your standard of living- which would be that of a millionaire or a
multi-millionaire if your system worked as you claim it would.
You've taken "God wants to bless people" and turned it into "God will prosper people if He gets
His cut" and you refuse to see it.
me: "There's requests for donations to help other Christians on a one-time basis.
There's a warning AGAINST required monies.
There's no required tithe.
So, to ask why God Almighty doesn't give you the results you specified on an action you
specified He had to give results on- whether it's a tithe or anything else-
is no different in substance than a foolish Jesus falling to his death from the top of
the temple because he would EXPECT God to do whatever, whenever."
you:"Just because YOU expect God to do whatever whenever doesn't mean He will, just to satisfy your narrow minded opinion of Him."
Faulty reading skills suit you poorly.
I keep pointing out that God will NOT do whatever, whenever.
It's you that said that He WOULD do something with no other justification
than that He COULD do it. YOU are the one that requires Him to act in
accordance with your specifications. YOUR will be done.
And then you turned around and claimed I did that.
It's obvious who did it.
you: "*If my God was as big of a jerk as yours, I'd think of getting me a new one."
Really, the insults? If you had something of substance to offer,
the pithy sayings to beguile people wouldn't be coming out.
It's that simple. And it's STILL getting lost- for those determined to lose it.
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modcat5
I just deleted a flagrantly inappropriate post and two others that responded to it.
Anyone got a problem with it, let me know and I'll get back to it next time I log in as a mod, which should be in January or so.
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johniam
Related flashback
Unspecified hypothetical person: Michael Jackson is pist at you.
Eddie Murphy: So?
This is bizzare. I'll address this when I have time, just not now.
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johniam
I'm going to do these in order; may take awhile.
*Agreed! VP said in 'Lifestyle of a believer' that there are 3 things which justify one person giving money to another person. 1) for merchandise, 2) for service, and 3) out of love, which can only be opened from the inside, as I said in my first post, not out of coercion.
*I'll dispute you a bit on this one. Jesus told his disciples that a poor woman who gave 2 mites gave more than the pharissees, because she gave all her living while they only gave of their abundance. Maybe he wasn't "criticizing" their giving, but he definitely made a distinction.
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johniam
*I don't have a problem with this. Sounds like you still try to acknowledge God in all your ways, including stewardship of money, and that God still honors this. ABS is between individuals and God. I never heard VP blur this. LCM didn't just threaten people with catastrophe about ABS, he once ranted about people not renewing their way mag subscriptions after the free one year subscription after taking pfal. He says you have money for HBO and Cinemax, but not for the way mag. He was mad, too. It's almost comical to think about now. The only bad consequences I, personally, have ever heard about coming to people regarding ABS are leaders spending ABS money on personal stuff. Makes me wonder about the current state of twi.
In the fellowship I now attend, we got some financial help in 2006, when much of St. Louis was without power for 8 days, to cover the cost of staying in motels. I'm sure we weren't the only ones, too. Also, in twi, I'm told that 85% of ABS went to HQ and 15% stayed in the limb. Other way around in the current fellowship. Nothing wrong with using ABS money to help people who have a need.
I like that you say, "Maybe I'm blessed for that, and maybe I'm not." In other words you trust God and you trust the people and organizations you give to and that's all you need to know and that's all anyone else needs to know.
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johniam
The 9/10 will go farther isn't a doctrine, it's HORSE SENSE! If God is really involved, then 1/10 will go farther. Faith as a grain of mustard seed, remember? If God is really involved, everything is better. This doesn't compute for you because you no longer believe in God.
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