In 1978, three 8th corps guys had deviated from the norm of accepted twi-doctrine and put together a research paper. Wierwille was livid. At the advanced class, wierwille excoriated -- [ha, yeah that's the word "ex-corps-iated"] -- these men as "off the Word" and playing around with devil spirits. See, its always the same outburst.....from 0-60mph in a nanosecond to skewer any dissent.
That's the REAL wierwille in action. How dare you usurp HIS authority on the Word! What gives YOU the right, you snot-nosed punk, to think that you can research the Scriptures to rightly-divide them? Why, you're hardly wet-behind-the-ears and you think you can challenge his research work, his pfal foundation?
Heck, even GMIR was slashed from The Way Magazine after qualified men and women, some who'd gone on to Chicago to get their doctorate of divinity contributed to these articles. Gee....here I thought that I was in a biblical research ministry and what unfolded before my eyes was a WIERWILLE CULT OF PERSONA AND MYSTICISM.
"That's the REAL wierwille in action. How dare you usurp HIS authority on the Word! What gives YOU the right, you snot-nosed punk, to think that you can research the Scriptures to rightly-divide them? Why, you're hardly wet-behind-the-ears and you think you can challenge my research work, my pfal foundation?"
This is the scary part:
Although his anger may (or may not) have been real, his rationale was having a concern for something he already secretly knew was bogus. It was an act. Part of the emotion may have been real but the character was contrived.
edit: This is purely anecdotal. I've seen pathological liars become extremely agitated when you innocently question *facts* that don't seem to add up.
pfal: put away your personal reading material for the next 3 months
corps: put away your musical instruments for the first 3 months
What is it with 3 months? Is there a psychological/clinical study that proves
it takes, on average, 3 months to stifle individuality and indoctrinate?
Unless you have some really awesome friends, they're probably not going to stick around for three months, listening to patronizing babble. Once you've lost your original support system and replaced it with a pseudo-support system, you are much more vulnerable to their suggestions and demands.
That's the REAL wierwille in action. How dare you usurp HIS authority on the Word! What gives YOU the right, you snot-nosed punk, to think that you can research the Scriptures to rightly-divide them? Why, you're hardly wet-behind-the-ears and you think you can challenge his research work, his pfal foundation?
.
I think it went something like, "After you've given 40 years of your life to the ministry maybe then you can______"
And, on the flip side.....
Some went thru the corps program with untapped, unrecognized ability.
My roommate, Dean B. 7th corps was one of those deeply-talented, quiet types
with a vast array of skill sets. He had culinary skills, watch-repair and jewelry
repair, lathe and wood-working.....and, except for kitchen detail work, HIS DEPTH
AND SKILL SETS WENT UNNOTICED.
Sure, twi made sure that Way Productions "talent" was on display......but some of the
independent, free-soul guitar players and singers weren't given any spotlight. It all
depended on if twi could mold you into their agenda.
Even angelic talent like L!sa L0chridge was rarily given the stage.
THEIR perspective, THEIR agenda......was what mattered.
Yeah, then if it was discovered you had some hidden talent, you got yelled at for not saying something sooner. You had to be a VP/LCM clone in order to be recognized as a leader. People that were soft spoken and actually encouraged people weren't taken seriously. In my case, I was scared to move when I was in the Corps. At that time getting yelled at was the worst thing that could happen to me. I got yelled at a lot growing up and yelling didn't encourage me, it scared me to death. Now, after having been sales for a number of years, I get yelled at all the time and I barely notice.
Unless you have some really awesome friends, they're probably not going to stick around for three months, listening to patronizing babble. Once you've lost your original support system and replaced it with a pseudo-support system, you are much more vulnerable to their suggestions and demands.
a person's gift should make room for them but not for the most part in the frikkin way
Sure it makes room for them, excie. Makes room for them in the punishment cell.
They used talents and abilities and secular skills if it suited them but woe betide you if you had some better skill than the leader of your work group. If you could point out a better way to do something, then you were "leaning to your own understanding" and not listening to the work group leader, who had the revelation on the best way to do any task. Yeah right.
Sure it makes room for them, excie. Makes room for them in the punishment cell.
They used talents and abilities and secular skills if it suited them but woe betide you if you had some better skill than the leader of your work group. If you could point out a better way to do something, then you were "leaning to your own understanding" and not listening to the work group leader, who had the revelation on the best way to do any task. Yeah right.
They had a real knack for twisting reality to keep people subservient.
Here's an example: One year, when the Corps were on *the cleanse*, Wierwille gave an order that no one should leave the grounds. One young man decided to sneak into town for some snacks. Another young man (Gary D.) decided to go with him. They were involved in a horrific auto accident and, as a result, Gary D. died. Wierwille called the driver a murderer to his face and said that anyone who had cheated on the cleanse was complicit, as well. The spin that permeated the ministry was that Wierwille had received revelation that the event would take place and this is why the "don't leave" order had been given. This, of course, made a perfect vehicle for promoting the idea that the MOG knew better than you, despite whatever reality might have indicated. (The MOG always knows the best way to do anything.)
In retrospect, it directly contradicts the section of the Advanced Class where it is taught that revelation is always for "profit" (ie: You won't get revelation that a plane is going to crash unless you are going to do something to stop it.)
Everything about The Way was a matter of perspective. The important lesson to accept was that it wasn't YOUR OWN perspective that mattered.
Doop said they buried Gary in the woods at Headquarters. "Probably the most devilish thing that came out of it was that John Nave was completely ostracized by Wierwille, treated very, very poorly," said Doop. "He never got off his back. John did everything he possibly could to redeem himself."
Del Duncan was in Wierwille's office when John Nave came to talk to him, seeking forgiveness more than a year after Gary's death. "And as he walked in the door, these are the exact words that Wierwille used: 'Well, how's the murderer of Gary Dunhoff doing today?' And John never got over that. It's been a scar in his life ever since. He's still a very damaged man from that."
I showed Duncan the "Death List," asking if he knew anyone on it besides Gary, and he said yes when he came to the following:
1974 - Dead - Sandra Ann Sullivan - committed suicide one month after becoming a secretary at Way Hdq. in New Knoxville, Ohio.
Del said she had been sexually involved with Wierwille. "She had already been involved before she became a secretary, with Wierwille and Howard Allen, and the impact on her was so great that she took her life," he said. "I talked to her and counseled with her a little bit, and also went before the Board of Trustees on it to try to get some reckoning about what this girl was going through, and others, but it was to no avail."
Sure it makes room for them, excie. Makes room for them in the punishment cell.
They used talents and abilities and secular skills if it suited them but woe betide you if you had some better skill than the leader of your work group. If you could point out a better way to do something, then you were "leaning to your own understanding" and not listening to the work group leader, who had the revelation on the best way to do any task. Yeah right.
And that's why they are where they are today - sitting in a cornfield of mediocrity. The same group that touted their superiority over "the world" in all areas who never made room for real talent when it presented itself. They gave the opportunities to oversee things based on position or what Corps you were in, not who had the ability.
Which reminds me, I was in a music group in my area and I had to be the "leader" because I was the Corps grad. I kept deferring to the guy who knew more than me musically and was a better musician. I was told I shouldn't do that, I was Corps, I was the leader. But he should have been running it. I wouldn't have has a problem with that but the area leader did.
And that's why they are where they are today - sitting in a cornfield of mediocrity. The same group that touted their superiority over "the world" in all areas who never made room for real talent when it presented itself. They gave the opportunities to oversee things based on position or what Corps you were in, not who had the ability.
[snip]
From where I sit, mediocrity is at least one step above where that cornfield cult is at this time.
Wierwille liked people that came from money...he worked hard hustling them... If you were broke and came from middle class or lower, he let you hang around as long you could scrounge up the tuition and fees. Vic was an extremely insecure man with an ego as big as they come. He had the morals of an alley cat and the ethics of a grifter. He never came up with anything on his own...he stole from everybody and then took the bows. The hundreds upon hundreds of WOWS and waycorps were nothing more than a free sales force to further his agenda of money and ego. Simon the sorcerer had nothing on this guy.
The thing that ....es me off the most is that he wasted my precious time. I think that he died at 69 because he knew that if he lived any longer we would have been lining up to kick his sorry cornfield foot. The biggest dunce of all was Martindale...he didn't have the brains to simply keep the trains running on time...and I'm thankful for that. If I ever run into him walking down the street, I will probably be arrested for assault. What an arrogant douche bag.
Looking back, I find it hard to believe that I was conned for so long...but breaking free from the group think and seeing them for what they were was like winning the lottery and hitting a homerun at the same time. My greatest hope is that in the next life, Wierwille will be cleaning toilets with his face and Martindale will be helping him do it.
As you say, vpw cared so long as lcm's money held- and said so. lcm was a resource to be exploited, no more.
The technique for exploiting him was deception- convincing lcm that vpw was some great one and that
God Almighty communicated through him like nobody else for the past 2000 years.
(It worked-some people are STILL buying it even in the face of overwhelming evidence
to the contrary.)
So, vpw KNEW he himself was a fraud, so he knew which risks he wanted to take, how far to
push his rubes, etc. lcm thought it was all REAL. So, when he got the big chair,
lcm thought he inherited some special connection to God Almighty and that his passing
thoughts came directly from God Almighty. So, he would have an impulse to do something
and just made it a policy without ever checking if it was sensible.
So, the longer lcm sat in the big chair, the more stupid decisions he made, and the more he
inadvertently dismantled twi by helping people realize he had no freaking clue what he
was doing when he was there.
It wasn't just that lcm was that stupid- he was that stupid AND he was that conned. vpw conned lcm
so completely, in part, because of his own insecurities and need to be worshipped.
Looking back on my experiences of the time, from a perspective of 27 years after leaving, I have to say, WordWolf, I think you've hit the nail exactly on the head. VPW knew what he was doing. LCM never had a clue...
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waysider
An overabundance of "straw bosses".
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skyrider
In 1978, three 8th corps guys had deviated from the norm of accepted twi-doctrine and put together a research paper. Wierwille was livid. At the advanced class, wierwille excoriated -- [ha, yeah that's the word "ex-corps-iated"] -- these men as "off the Word" and playing around with devil spirits. See, its always the same outburst.....from 0-60mph in a nanosecond to skewer any dissent.
That's the REAL wierwille in action. How dare you usurp HIS authority on the Word! What gives YOU the right, you snot-nosed punk, to think that you can research the Scriptures to rightly-divide them? Why, you're hardly wet-behind-the-ears and you think you can challenge his research work, his pfal foundation?
Heck, even GMIR was slashed from The Way Magazine after qualified men and women, some who'd gone on to Chicago to get their doctorate of divinity contributed to these articles. Gee....here I thought that I was in a biblical research ministry and what unfolded before my eyes was a WIERWILLE CULT OF PERSONA AND MYSTICISM.
.
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WordWolf
One of the Ferengi rules of Acquisition (of the Star Trek franchise) is
"Never be afraid to mislabel a product."
vpw labelled his program a program for training spiritual leaders.
It was a program for training spiritual FOLLOWERS.
People PAID for their entire time, enough to more than cover the costs
and turn a profit per-person.
Some of the time, they performed manual labor- and weren't credited back
any money as any kind of salary or anything. They also didn't actually
learn a marketable trade in the process, like electronics, auto repair,
etc. Picking vegetables, killing chickens, painting houses and washing
cars and stuff are not trades where anyone needs experience or training,
they can be picked up on-the-fly, which is why the US often ends up with
the desperate and underemployed doing some of them (migrant farmers.)
vpw never went through any leadership training HIMSELF- and he couldn't
teach what he didn't know and didn't dare crack his persona of the
All-Knowing Leader, so he couldn't bring in outside talent to do it.
So, the students COULDN'T learn leadership training any more than they
could learn Special Forces training without Special Forces-trained
soldiers to teach them.
vpw never wanted leaders anyway-people who would stand up for others
if needed, to stand up TO HIM if needed. He wanted fanatics who would
jump off a cliff if he commanded it. His 2 most fanatically loyal
followers were the 2 people he promoted as high as he could-
lcm and cgeer. The screening process for the corps was a joke, a
formality- "You can stay as long as your money holds!" and people's
retentions were based on that and their willingness to OBEY
LEADERSHIP. (lcm documented both.) vpw wanted the corps to turn a
profit, but most importantly, he wanted FOLLOWERS, and the only real
training he brought in was in SALES. So, followers and salesmen.
And if they crashed and burned, at least he ran a profit on each one.
It's possible a FEW people were refused for entry into his "elite"
program, but from what I've heard, paying tuition was the big hurdle
and the most incompetent and dangerous people were let in alongside
the most compassionate and committed Christians. Naturally, he never
phrased it as INCLUSIONARY, but that was the practice, while the
rhetoric was that it was EXCLUSIONARY, and not that easy to pass the
requirements, so don't try unless you've advanced.
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waysider
"That's the REAL wierwille in action. How dare you usurp HIS authority on the Word! What gives YOU the right, you snot-nosed punk, to think that you can research the Scriptures to rightly-divide them? Why, you're hardly wet-behind-the-ears and you think you can challenge my research work, my pfal foundation?"
This is the scary part:
Although his anger may (or may not) have been real, his rationale was having a concern for something he already secretly knew was bogus. It was an act. Part of the emotion may have been real but the character was contrived.
edit: This is purely anecdotal. I've seen pathological liars become extremely agitated when you innocently question *facts* that don't seem to add up.
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skyrider
And, on the flip side.....
Some went thru the corps program with untapped, unrecognized ability.
My roommate, Dean B. 7th corps was one of those deeply-talented, quiet types
with a vast array of skill sets. He had culinary skills, watch-repair and jewelry
repair, lathe and wood-working.....and, except for kitchen detail work, HIS DEPTH
AND SKILL SETS WENT UNNOTICED.
Sure, twi made sure that Way Productions "talent" was on display......but some of the
independent, free-soul guitar players and singers weren't given any spotlight. It all
depended on if twi could mold you into their agenda.
Even angelic talent like L!sa L0chridge was rarily given the stage.
THEIR perspective, THEIR agenda......was what mattered.
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excathedra
they didn't notice any "individuals" unless somehow they got something out of it
don't know if that makes sense
they crushed individuality
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waysider
It makes complete sense.
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skyrider
Oh yeah....
pfal: put away your personal reading material for the next 3 months
corps: put away your musical instruments for the first 3 months
What is it with 3 months? Is there a psychological/clinical study that proves
it takes, on average, 3 months to stifle individuality and indoctrinate?
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waysider
Unless you have some really awesome friends, they're probably not going to stick around for three months, listening to patronizing babble. Once you've lost your original support system and replaced it with a pseudo-support system, you are much more vulnerable to their suggestions and demands.
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Allan
A goldfishes memory span is approx. 3 months
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Broken Arrow
I think it went something like, "After you've given 40 years of your life to the ministry maybe then you can______"
Yeah, then if it was discovered you had some hidden talent, you got yelled at for not saying something sooner. You had to be a VP/LCM clone in order to be recognized as a leader. People that were soft spoken and actually encouraged people weren't taken seriously. In my case, I was scared to move when I was in the Corps. At that time getting yelled at was the worst thing that could happen to me. I got yelled at a lot growing up and yelling didn't encourage me, it scared me to death. Now, after having been sales for a number of years, I get yelled at all the time and I barely notice.
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skyrider
Yep --
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excathedra
i felt so lucky to meet wonderful people in and out of the way corps program
but so many of them didn't fit the bill whatever
it saddens me and i'll bet it saddens god / christ
a person's gift should make room for them but not for the most part in the frikkin way
god knows, you know?
--
there was a time i had to be off campus longer than was approved
i went to donna for permission and she gave it to me
she asked me who would be going with me to help me through my ordeal
i told her a "regular believer" would be flying in to help me
she was quite amazed
why though? because this "regular believer" loved me unconditionally and would help, never leave me, never backbite or do ANYTHING to hurt me
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Rocky
I agree completely.
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Twinky
Sure it makes room for them, excie. Makes room for them in the punishment cell.
They used talents and abilities and secular skills if it suited them but woe betide you if you had some better skill than the leader of your work group. If you could point out a better way to do something, then you were "leaning to your own understanding" and not listening to the work group leader, who had the revelation on the best way to do any task. Yeah right.
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waysider
They had a real knack for twisting reality to keep people subservient.
Here's an example: One year, when the Corps were on *the cleanse*, Wierwille gave an order that no one should leave the grounds. One young man decided to sneak into town for some snacks. Another young man (Gary D.) decided to go with him. They were involved in a horrific auto accident and, as a result, Gary D. died. Wierwille called the driver a murderer to his face and said that anyone who had cheated on the cleanse was complicit, as well. The spin that permeated the ministry was that Wierwille had received revelation that the event would take place and this is why the "don't leave" order had been given. This, of course, made a perfect vehicle for promoting the idea that the MOG knew better than you, despite whatever reality might have indicated. (The MOG always knows the best way to do anything.)
In retrospect, it directly contradicts the section of the Advanced Class where it is taught that revelation is always for "profit" (ie: You won't get revelation that a plane is going to crash unless you are going to do something to stop it.)
Everything about The Way was a matter of perspective. The important lesson to accept was that it wasn't YOUR OWN perspective that mattered.
edit: Gary D.'s death.
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excathedra
there you have it the love of christ
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outandabout
And that's why they are where they are today - sitting in a cornfield of mediocrity. The same group that touted their superiority over "the world" in all areas who never made room for real talent when it presented itself. They gave the opportunities to oversee things based on position or what Corps you were in, not who had the ability.
Which reminds me, I was in a music group in my area and I had to be the "leader" because I was the Corps grad. I kept deferring to the guy who knew more than me musically and was a better musician. I was told I shouldn't do that, I was Corps, I was the leader. But he should have been running it. I wouldn't have has a problem with that but the area leader did.
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krys
From where I sit, mediocrity is at least one step above where that cornfield cult is at this time.
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GrouchoMarxJr
A matter of perspective...
Wierwille liked people that came from money...he worked hard hustling them... If you were broke and came from middle class or lower, he let you hang around as long you could scrounge up the tuition and fees. Vic was an extremely insecure man with an ego as big as they come. He had the morals of an alley cat and the ethics of a grifter. He never came up with anything on his own...he stole from everybody and then took the bows. The hundreds upon hundreds of WOWS and waycorps were nothing more than a free sales force to further his agenda of money and ego. Simon the sorcerer had nothing on this guy.
The thing that ....es me off the most is that he wasted my precious time. I think that he died at 69 because he knew that if he lived any longer we would have been lining up to kick his sorry cornfield foot. The biggest dunce of all was Martindale...he didn't have the brains to simply keep the trains running on time...and I'm thankful for that. If I ever run into him walking down the street, I will probably be arrested for assault. What an arrogant douche bag.
Looking back, I find it hard to believe that I was conned for so long...but breaking free from the group think and seeing them for what they were was like winning the lottery and hitting a homerun at the same time. My greatest hope is that in the next life, Wierwille will be cleaning toilets with his face and Martindale will be helping him do it.
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WordWolf
The sad thing about lcm...
As you say, vpw cared so long as lcm's money held- and said so. lcm was a resource to be exploited, no more.
The technique for exploiting him was deception- convincing lcm that vpw was some great one and that
God Almighty communicated through him like nobody else for the past 2000 years.
(It worked-some people are STILL buying it even in the face of overwhelming evidence
to the contrary.)
So, vpw KNEW he himself was a fraud, so he knew which risks he wanted to take, how far to
push his rubes, etc. lcm thought it was all REAL. So, when he got the big chair,
lcm thought he inherited some special connection to God Almighty and that his passing
thoughts came directly from God Almighty. So, he would have an impulse to do something
and just made it a policy without ever checking if it was sensible.
So, the longer lcm sat in the big chair, the more stupid decisions he made, and the more he
inadvertently dismantled twi by helping people realize he had no freaking clue what he
was doing when he was there.
It wasn't just that lcm was that stupid- he was that stupid AND he was that conned. vpw conned lcm
so completely, in part, because of his own insecurities and need to be worshipped.
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Steve Lortz
Looking back on my experiences of the time, from a perspective of 27 years after leaving, I have to say, WordWolf, I think you've hit the nail exactly on the head. VPW knew what he was doing. LCM never had a clue...
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
i think very much along those same lines
however, i found craig to have changed and he became very mean
don't know if it was a result of fear or just being groomed properly
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