Is it possible for something to be true without being a "spiritual truth"? Like the common sense advise in Proverbs. If you read the same thing in a bubble gum wrapper, would it still be good advise? I wonder about stuff like that.
The whole idea of "spiritual truth" assumes spirit. I do not. Do I see some wisdom in Paul? Sure. I also see some ignorance, some bigotry, some obliviousness and some sexism.
Do I believe Jesus existed? Most likely. Do I believe what's written about him? Mostly not.
Most of this is fodder for another thread though. Can we get back to Genesis?
Raf, do you even believe there is a God and that God is Spirit? Do you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus has a new spiritual body? The bible says Jesus is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for followers of Him. Another words, Jesus is our connection between God and man. Also Jesus wants to save all of mankind and not just a small percentage of the population. Jesus is all about love, mercy, grace and truth as I have been seeing. Do you see this?
Raf, do you even believe there is a God and that God is Spirit? Do you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus has a new spiritual body? The bible says Jesus is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for followers of Him. Also Jesus wants to save all of mankind and not just a small percentage of the population. Jesus is all about love, mercy, grace and truth as I have been seeing. Do you see this?
Thanks for posting that Wordwolf. No, I did not read that previously because not every post on any forum is useful and I have a very busy work schedule and do not have time for all posts here.
Raf, for you to post on a doctrinal forum when you finally admit to not believing any words of the bible is clearly a waste of your time. And for someone like me it could do just the opposite of what you are trying to promote, namely having a goal of less people reading the bible in a search for truth.
You can get truth and you can get lies and deception in anything you study. This just depends on the state or one's mind and their actual search for truth, which I have always had. However, for you to think that we can not get truth from reading the bible is deception. As an example of getting truth from reading the bible, here is a link to an article that someone that I know wrote. He is a very good bible teacher and very truthful in his interpretation. This is coming from myself who has a collegiate business degree, has a U.S. manufacturing business and is also a California licensed real estate broker. This shows the best understanding that I have ever seen from anything ever written on economics and what real wealth is in a society. And no, it is not the printing of money. It is from the actual production of goods and services. And this uses bible verses as a means of understanding this fundamental concept. Hence, using bible verses can result in deception, which it looks like you are promoting. However, bible verses can also be used to generate truth in our understanding.
And again Raf, if you want to reject even a truthful economic analysis because it uses bible verses, then perhaps you can pretend there are no bible verses as part of this while massaging your head.
Waysider, for anyone to post on a Christian doctrinal forum when they admit to not believing any words of the bible is clearly a waste of their time. And for someone like me it could do just the opposite of what they are trying to promote, namely having a goal of less people reading the bible as a search for truth.
Can't defend the myth, can't counter my argument, so go ahead and attack me personally. Uncalled for and intellectually bankrupt.
This is not a Christian doctrinal forum. Perhaps you forgot that. I am pleased to remind you.
The only one wasting people's time here is Mark. I am raising genuine questions about the reliability of Genesis, and Mark has derailed that conversation. Christians who don't want to participate don't need to. But if you want to participate, I suggest you participate in the topic. If you'd prefer to make it about me, then YOU are derailing the thread and I would ask you to stop.
Anyone that honestly searches for truth would not want to study something that they do not see truth in. A study of something they see as not truthful would waste their time. And yes our time can have value and be productive.
But I believe that all of humanity will eventually see the truth in Jesus Christ. Perhaps not in this lifetime, but in the resurrection of the unjust. And yes, this would be another topic of discussion. An actual biblical one in a doctrinal forum.
I WANT more people reading the Bible. The more you realize what this book really says, without being "blinded" by the so called "light," the more you will agree with me. Please, read as much of the Bible as you can! Especially the good parts, like when God takes a man's life for the unspeakable crime of picking up sticks on Saturday. PLEASE read more Bible! Not just the prepackaged feel good pablum we fed each other for decades. The whole thing. Because if you ever had the BALLS to do it, you would be standing where I am today, wondering why you didn't wake up sooner.
You are implying that I am being dishonest. I reject your character assassination and demand an apology.
"Reading The Bible as a source of truth" is not what this forum is designed for.
It's designed for examining and discussing doctrines. (primarily, but not exclusively, those that relate to religious/spiritual matters)
There are many cultures that have, as a collective belief, doctrine that is based on the same basic story presented in Genesis. Why restrict ourselves to only those cultures that are Christian? That seems rather limited and self serving.
You are implying that I am being dishonest. I reject your character assassination and demand an apology.
Raf, you are being dishonest here. You want people only to read the bible and be opposed to its content. What about if someone reads sections of the bible, for example the writings of the Apostle Paul and agrees with its content?
Again, I am sorry for getting off your topic of the book of Genesis. I have not studied this recently and will make no or limited comments on this at this time. However, you are in general promoting that the content of the bible is false and untruthful. I do not agree with this and clearly see this as false. The only falsity is in its errant interpretation. I have spent the last few weeks writing an entire biblical article on correcting some of this errant view. If you are interested here is the link to this article.
And Raf, you have been false with me in previous posts here saying that I was here to promote Way ministry doctrine of old. I have done much to correct errant Way doctrine as has Wordwolf.
I am not being dishonest and have not been dishonest. I expect and demand an apology for this deliberate character assassination and deliberate derailing of this topic.
Defend Genesis on its merits or butt out of this conversation. Keep making it about me and I will respond accordingly.
Once again, this is not a Christian forum. If you have a problem with that, it is YOUR problem, not the cafe's. If you don't like the fact that an atheist can read the Bible and call shenanigans when he sees it, there are plenty of forums on the Internet where open inquiry and honest debate are discouraged and you can live in a cocoon where there really are no errors in the bible as long as you don't open the thing. This is NOT one of those forums. So if you expect me to shut up because I no longer believe, if you expect me to NOT express myself when and where I feel it's appropriate, then TOO BAD FOR YOU.
Just a reminder for those who think this is a Christians only ghetto of the Cafe. It isn't.
Again this is the Doctrinal section of this forum. If you want to post in opposition to the doctrine of the bible then you are allowed to do this. However, anyone that is actually searching for truth, studying something that they see as untruthful would be counter productive in their actual search for truth. How can anyone get truth by studying something that they see as not truthful? Maybe they think that truth only comes from themselves.
Maybe the truth is the Bible doesn't hold up to genuine scrutiny. Perhaps your approach of attacking me rather than defending it is an indication of who's really being dishonest here.
Obviously the truth doesn't come from me. It comes from the Bible! As long as you ignore all of its actual errors. You know, like the gigantic dome we all live under.
Raf, if you don't believe you can find any truth from the bible I really don't care. However, in order to find truth I have to actually study something and this takes time. I posted two biblical articles that I see as biblical truth, one of which I wrote and one which I know the subject of very well. Sorry, but I do not have time to study the book of Genesis now and test it for truth also.
That's fine. And I have neither the time nor the interest to study the articles you wrote, which no doubt presume the integrity of a book riddled with errors you choose to ignore. No sweat off my brow.
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T-Bone
I thought I was quite clear in my post # 81: even your reply in post # 82 gave every indication that you knew I was providing only a list of books And just to verify I was going provide what you
Raf
Actually, you don't just get to say this and have it be true. That's arrogance. "My position is wise even if it makes no sense to you." Honestly, that's the definition of arrogance. Why demo
Grace Valerie Claire
Raf, I beg to differ with you; Demons do exist! I know one lives here in DC!!
Raf
No and no.
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Raf
Again, that's not to say there's nothing to be learned from the gospels or epistles. I just cut to the heart of your question.
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waysider
Is it possible for something to be true without being a "spiritual truth"? Like the common sense advise in Proverbs. If you read the same thing in a bubble gum wrapper, would it still be good advise? I wonder about stuff like that.
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Raf
Not to mention that some of the advice is bad. "Lean not on your own understanding"? That's some bad advice right there.
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waysider
That's fodder for a good old-fashioned circular reasoning festival. :B)
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Raf
The whole idea of "spiritual truth" assumes spirit. I do not. Do I see some wisdom in Paul? Sure. I also see some ignorance, some bigotry, some obliviousness and some sexism.
Do I believe Jesus existed? Most likely. Do I believe what's written about him? Mostly not.
Most of this is fodder for another thread though. Can we get back to Genesis?
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Mark Sanguinetti
Raf, do you even believe there is a God and that God is Spirit? Do you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus has a new spiritual body? The bible says Jesus is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for followers of Him. Another words, Jesus is our connection between God and man. Also Jesus wants to save all of mankind and not just a small percentage of the population. Jesus is all about love, mercy, grace and truth as I have been seeing. Do you see this?
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WordWolf
No he doesn't.
You missed this thread:
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Raf
Maybe I should say it in Spanish.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Thanks for posting that Wordwolf. No, I did not read that previously because not every post on any forum is useful and I have a very busy work schedule and do not have time for all posts here.
Raf, for you to post on a doctrinal forum when you finally admit to not believing any words of the bible is clearly a waste of your time. And for someone like me it could do just the opposite of what you are trying to promote, namely having a goal of less people reading the bible in a search for truth.
You can get truth and you can get lies and deception in anything you study. This just depends on the state or one's mind and their actual search for truth, which I have always had. However, for you to think that we can not get truth from reading the bible is deception. As an example of getting truth from reading the bible, here is a link to an article that someone that I know wrote. He is a very good bible teacher and very truthful in his interpretation. This is coming from myself who has a collegiate business degree, has a U.S. manufacturing business and is also a California licensed real estate broker. This shows the best understanding that I have ever seen from anything ever written on economics and what real wealth is in a society. And no, it is not the printing of money. It is from the actual production of goods and services. And this uses bible verses as a means of understanding this fundamental concept. Hence, using bible verses can result in deception, which it looks like you are promoting. However, bible verses can also be used to generate truth in our understanding.
http://www.christianherald.info/biblical-money-chapter1.html
And again Raf, if you want to reject even a truthful economic analysis because it uses bible verses, then perhaps you can pretend there are no bible verses as part of this while massaging your head.
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waysider
WARNING!!
Meta discussion may ensue.
Should a doctrinal forum be limited to only Christian/Biblical doctrines?
That seems a bit restrictive and counter-productive, in my opinion.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Waysider, for anyone to post on a Christian doctrinal forum when they admit to not believing any words of the bible is clearly a waste of their time. And for someone like me it could do just the opposite of what they are trying to promote, namely having a goal of less people reading the bible as a search for truth.
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Raf
Uncalled for.
Can't defend the myth, can't counter my argument, so go ahead and attack me personally. Uncalled for and intellectually bankrupt.
This is not a Christian doctrinal forum. Perhaps you forgot that. I am pleased to remind you.
The only one wasting people's time here is Mark. I am raising genuine questions about the reliability of Genesis, and Mark has derailed that conversation. Christians who don't want to participate don't need to. But if you want to participate, I suggest you participate in the topic. If you'd prefer to make it about me, then YOU are derailing the thread and I would ask you to stop.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Anyone that honestly searches for truth would not want to study something that they do not see truth in. A study of something they see as not truthful would waste their time. And yes our time can have value and be productive.
But I believe that all of humanity will eventually see the truth in Jesus Christ. Perhaps not in this lifetime, but in the resurrection of the unjust. And yes, this would be another topic of discussion. An actual biblical one in a doctrinal forum.
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Raf
I WANT more people reading the Bible. The more you realize what this book really says, without being "blinded" by the so called "light," the more you will agree with me. Please, read as much of the Bible as you can! Especially the good parts, like when God takes a man's life for the unspeakable crime of picking up sticks on Saturday. PLEASE read more Bible! Not just the prepackaged feel good pablum we fed each other for decades. The whole thing. Because if you ever had the BALLS to do it, you would be standing where I am today, wondering why you didn't wake up sooner.
You are implying that I am being dishonest. I reject your character assassination and demand an apology.
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Mark Sanguinetti
This is literally the doctrinal section of this forum. Perhaps you don't want to see this. And yes the bible does involve doctrinal.
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waysider
More meta yada-yada-yada:
"Reading The Bible as a source of truth" is not what this forum is designed for.
It's designed for examining and discussing doctrines. (primarily, but not exclusively, those that relate to religious/spiritual matters)
There are many cultures that have, as a collective belief, doctrine that is based on the same basic story presented in Genesis. Why restrict ourselves to only those cultures that are Christian? That seems rather limited and self serving.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Raf, you are being dishonest here. You want people only to read the bible and be opposed to its content. What about if someone reads sections of the bible, for example the writings of the Apostle Paul and agrees with its content?
Again, I am sorry for getting off your topic of the book of Genesis. I have not studied this recently and will make no or limited comments on this at this time. However, you are in general promoting that the content of the bible is false and untruthful. I do not agree with this and clearly see this as false. The only falsity is in its errant interpretation. I have spent the last few weeks writing an entire biblical article on correcting some of this errant view. If you are interested here is the link to this article.
http://www.christian-universalism.info/agegreekwords-pg1.html
And Raf, you have been false with me in previous posts here saying that I was here to promote Way ministry doctrine of old. I have done much to correct errant Way doctrine as has Wordwolf.
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Raf
I am not being dishonest and have not been dishonest. I expect and demand an apology for this deliberate character assassination and deliberate derailing of this topic.
Defend Genesis on its merits or butt out of this conversation. Keep making it about me and I will respond accordingly.
Once again, this is not a Christian forum. If you have a problem with that, it is YOUR problem, not the cafe's. If you don't like the fact that an atheist can read the Bible and call shenanigans when he sees it, there are plenty of forums on the Internet where open inquiry and honest debate are discouraged and you can live in a cocoon where there really are no errors in the bible as long as you don't open the thing. This is NOT one of those forums. So if you expect me to shut up because I no longer believe, if you expect me to NOT express myself when and where I feel it's appropriate, then TOO BAD FOR YOU.
Just a reminder for those who think this is a Christians only ghetto of the Cafe. It isn't.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Again this is the Doctrinal section of this forum. If you want to post in opposition to the doctrine of the bible then you are allowed to do this. However, anyone that is actually searching for truth, studying something that they see as untruthful would be counter productive in their actual search for truth. How can anyone get truth by studying something that they see as not truthful? Maybe they think that truth only comes from themselves.
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Raf
Maybe the truth is the Bible doesn't hold up to genuine scrutiny. Perhaps your approach of attacking me rather than defending it is an indication of who's really being dishonest here.
Obviously the truth doesn't come from me. It comes from the Bible! As long as you ignore all of its actual errors. You know, like the gigantic dome we all live under.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Raf, if you don't believe you can find any truth from the bible I really don't care. However, in order to find truth I have to actually study something and this takes time. I posted two biblical articles that I see as biblical truth, one of which I wrote and one which I know the subject of very well. Sorry, but I do not have time to study the book of Genesis now and test it for truth also.
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Raf
That's fine. And I have neither the time nor the interest to study the articles you wrote, which no doubt presume the integrity of a book riddled with errors you choose to ignore. No sweat off my brow.
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Mark Sanguinetti
If you think I am ignoring the errors then you are in turn ignoring the truth.
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