I think Oakspear's comment (#35 on this thread) hit the nail on the head. Christians or any other religion that claims "to know" for certainty anything is only peddling BS.
This sounds like that line from the Kansas song 'carry on my wayward son', if I claim to be a wise man, then it's sure that I don't know. Hey, I like one liners.
Selective reasoning is one thing. Electing not to reason is another. Vague criticisms are nothing but personal insults in disguise. Why not just say hey, we don't agree, but I respect your right to disagree with me on this and other issues.
Either that, or grow a pair and say what you're really thinking.
quote: Does it take faith to deny Zeus, Thor and Odin? No. Nor does it take faith to deny Satan. He doesn't exist. It takes faith to say he does. I reject that, and it does not take faith to do so.
quote: Christians or any other religion that claims "to know" for certainty anything is only peddling BS.
2 plus 2 = 4.
Raf doesn't say IMO he doesn't exist. Nor does he say I don't believe he exists. He's SURE! He says "He doesn't exist." So, by Oakspear's definition, Raf is "peddling BS". Call it WHATEVER you wish, if someone is sure that the devil doesn't exist, that's faith. We're speaking English here, correct?
Raf doesn't say IMO he doesn't exist. Nor does he say I don't believe he exists. He's SURE! He says "He doesn't exist." So, by Oakspear's definition, Raf is "peddling BS". Call it WHATEVER you wish, if someone is sure that the devil doesn't exist, that's faith. We're speaking English here, correct?
John, you're playing a silly semantics game with this one. And you're not very good at it. You don't have to declare that something is your opinion every time that is the case, especially on a discussion forum that specializes in opinion.. It's implied. Nor do you have to preface every belief with an "I believe" disclaimer. If you state it, it's implied you believe it. That has nothing to do with faith. Faith, as the word is being used here, connotes a belief in something for which no logical proof exists. It's not "not believing" in something for which no logical proof exists. If you're really concerned with the rules of the English language, take a few moments and learn about logical fallacies (begging the question) and double negatives.
Thank you, waysider, for pointing out what should have been the obvious. I never said I know God doesn't exist, and if you've paid any attention to this thread, you can see that I had a specific post about it. Which means either that johniam has not really read the thread and all my comments, he's lying, or he lacks basic reading comprehension skills. Since b and c require me to engage in a personal attack, i'll go ahead and hope the answer is a, he hasn't read the thread. Because it would be wrong and against the rules to call someone a liar or an idiot.
Anosticism is a feature of every point on that scale except 1 and 7. Most atheists I have encountered are a 6. Some like to get clever and say "6.9999." The point is, they don't pretend to "know that they know that they know" there is no God. But they're pretty confident on the subject. That confidence may sometimes come off as certainty, but that's because we're all human and we don't stand around qualifying every single sentence we utter. When I said in my opening post on this thread that I say in my heart there is no God, I said it with confidence, not certainty.
What I meant was:
Agnosticism is a feature of every point on that scale except 1 and 7. Most atheists I have encountered are a 6. Some like to get clever and say "6.9999." The point is, they don't pretend to "know that they know that they know" there is no God. But they're pretty confident on the subject. That confidence may sometimes come off as certainty, but that's because we're all human and we don't stand around qualifying every single sentence we utter. When I said in my opening post on this thread that I say in my heart there is no God, I said it with confidence, not certainty.
What I meant was NOT
Raf doesn't say IMO he doesn't exist. Nor does he say I don't believe he exists. He's SURE! He says "He doesn't exist." So, by Oakspear's definition, Raf is "peddling BS". Call it WHATEVER you wish, if someone is sure that the devil doesn't exist, that's faith. We're speaking English here, correct?
Well, ONE of us is speaking English here, but his name does not rhyme with Ron Eye Yam. Enough double speak and twisting people's words around, John. E nuff.
The shifting of the burden of proof is the age-old tactic of theism, and it is what John is doing here.
He asserts that I have no proof for the claim there is no devil, and therefore the position that there is no devil requires faith.
Bull. That is a lie.
There is no need for me to disprove a proposition for which there is no proof in the first place. It is not the responsibility of unbelievers to disprove Zeus, Allah, Vishnu. Thor, Odin, Willy Wonka, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, leprechauns, fairies, goblins, gremlins, E.T.'s, Peter Pan, Candy Man, the bogeyman, werewolves, vampires, succubbi, drop dead fred, Satan, or God. It takes faith to believe in any of those things. Not believing in them does not take faith.
The burden is on the person who believes in those things to prove those things. Continuing to believe in those things despite being unable to prove them takes faith.
Rejecting any of those claims does NOT take faith. It is simply an expression of my opinion that you have not met the burden of proof.
Remember, the burden of proof always falls on the person making an AFFIRMATIVE claim.
"There is no God" is not an affirmative claim. It does not await proof. And no matter how you try to rephrase it, it will never be an affirmative claim. An affirmative claim is one that asserts something exists or happened, etc.
"There is no devil" is not an affirmative claim.
Your failure to prove your claim is sufficient reason for me to disbelieve it. It doesn't become my responsibility to disprove your claim. You're the one with faith, not I.
Whoa whoa now, Raf.. you're going a little bit too far now. You were right on about everything else but did you have to include succubbi in the list? Sure belief in fairies, gods and devils is B.S., no doubt, but succubbis are for real dude. I know. I can feel their truth in my dreams. Beautiful pixie like harbingers of pleasure that come to me in my most needful moments. Anyone who doesn't accept them are going to Hell..
Whoa whoa now, Raf.. you're going a little bit too far now. You were right on about everything else but did you have to include succubbi in the list? Sure belief in fairies, gods and devils is B.S., no doubt, but succubbis are for real dude. I know. I can feel their truth in my dreams. Beautiful pixie like harbingers of pleasure that come to me in my most needful moments. Anyone who doesn't accept them are going to Hell..
Why does ANYONE care what Raf believes? Why does anyone care what johniam believes? Bottom line, Raf came to change his beliefs and shared what that means to him and how he reasoned it out. Nobody else's beliefs are jeopardized by a person doing that, are they?
Agreed, Rocky. And I shared my "conversion" because of the nature of this forum, the discussions we have and the positions I have taken in the past. If this were a forum of Battlestar Galactica fans, I would not have mentioned it.
Of course, a fan of Battlestar Galactica who later changes his mind is never accused of never having been a real fan in the first place.
Second, there seems to be a defense mechanism built into some Christians that requires them to slander those who once embrace and later leave the faith as never having truly been believers.
I posted that you were no different than me. How could I "slander" you? Am I also slandering myself?
Agreed, Rocky. And I shared my "conversion" because of the nature of this forum, the discussions we have and the positions I have taken in the past. If this were a forum of Battlestar Galactica fans, I would not have mentioned it.
Of course, a fan of Battlestar Galactica who later changes his mind is never accused of never having been a real fan in the first place.
what if they were a Cylon and didn't know it?
a Battlestar Galactica fan who is a Cylon but doesn't know it.
Second, there seems to be a defense mechanism built into some Christians that requires them to slander those who once embrace and later leave the faith as never having truly been believers.
I posted that you were no different than me. How could I "slander" you? Am I also slandering myself?
If you are suggesting that you have secretly been atheist all along, I accept your confession with some genuine surprise.
If you are suggesting that I have been secretly atheist all along, that makes you a liar, a bearer of false witness, a slanderer.
Telling the truth about yourself does not give you license to lie about other people.
Well, first off, I'm back after a rather long absence.
Thank you for your candor and honesty about confessing to becoming an atheist.
While I do believe in the existance of the higher power, commonly called "God", I do not believe God is a person that either needs or demands worship, as if he were an egomaniac (I do understand the personification of God however).
I would fall to about #3 on your scale between 1 and 7 (Basically a deist). However, while I do believe in an afterlife, I don't know exactly what it's going to be like. As many of you know, I have embraced Christian Universalism for over 10 years now (That is the belief that everyone will be reconciled to God someday). Currently, I'm considering, that even if there is a higher dimension in the afterlife, there will be no post-mortem judgment of any kind (If I may quote scripture here, it says that "He who is dead is free from sin" [Romans 6:7].) That being said, why would there be a need for such a judgment if we have in fact been freed from sin? The only other possibility is that we return to earth with a new and different identity (known as "reincarnation"). I was asked by my pastor last year what I expect when I die. I repsonded that I don't know, since I do believe that my human mind will cease upon my death. My human mind cannot fathom what a spiritual mind is like.
Raf, I know that when you were a Christian, we had our differences on what a Christian is. Of course we have dialogued quite often at Facebook and have had some of the best conversations ever.
Oh yes, and when I do see you in Heaven there WON'T be any 'splaining to do! Not from you, not from me, nor anyone else! :)
Back when I was running the Living Epistles Society website and forum, I intended to make it a "safe haven" for Christian ex-followers of TWI, but I soon realized that I had put myself in the unenviable position of having to decide who was and was not a Christian. I made a lot of judgment calls (Mormons - no, Jehovah;s Witnesses, yes). But I was really uncomfortable with being in that position. Chuck, if your views are now what they were then, I can see why I would not have considered you Christian, but really, it is SO not my place to judge. It never was.
It was easier to abandon the site than it was to manage it.
In any event, you have always been very gracious about it and I had forgotten our "clash" or whatever you want to call it. I'm grateful for your acceptance and forgiveness.
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WordWolf
I'm not sure it hit exactly what he was asking. If I can try to hit it, here's what I THINK her opinion is like- and she may correct me and disavow it..... She knows how water gets to her faucets,
Raf
So much falsehood in that one sentence. Prove it's not Loki or Pandora or the ghost of Patrick Swayze behind all that's taking place in Ferguson. You can't! You have faith! Nonsense. Pretty stupid
Ron G.
That says it all and it is as it should be. We are all individuals. All our journeys are personal and our own. It does not diminish my opinion of you nor would it cause me to lose respect. You do
johniam
This sounds like that line from the Kansas song 'carry on my wayward son', if I claim to be a wise man, then it's sure that I don't know. Hey, I like one liners.
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Raf
Selective reasoning is one thing. Electing not to reason is another. Vague criticisms are nothing but personal insults in disguise. Why not just say hey, we don't agree, but I respect your right to disagree with me on this and other issues.
Either that, or grow a pair and say what you're really thinking.
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Ron G.
That says it all and it is as it should be. We are all individuals. All our journeys are personal and our own.
It does not diminish my opinion of you nor would it cause me to lose respect.
You do still have to obey your AP style book, though. :)/>
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Raf
Thanks Ron
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johniam
quote: Does it take faith to deny Zeus, Thor and Odin? No. Nor does it take faith to deny Satan. He doesn't exist. It takes faith to say he does. I reject that, and it does not take faith to do so.
quote: Christians or any other religion that claims "to know" for certainty anything is only peddling BS.
2 plus 2 = 4.
Raf doesn't say IMO he doesn't exist. Nor does he say I don't believe he exists. He's SURE! He says "He doesn't exist." So, by Oakspear's definition, Raf is "peddling BS". Call it WHATEVER you wish, if someone is sure that the devil doesn't exist, that's faith. We're speaking English here, correct?
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waysider
John, you're playing a silly semantics game with this one. And you're not very good at it. You don't have to declare that something is your opinion every time that is the case, especially on a discussion forum that specializes in opinion.. It's implied. Nor do you have to preface every belief with an "I believe" disclaimer. If you state it, it's implied you believe it. That has nothing to do with faith. Faith, as the word is being used here, connotes a belief in something for which no logical proof exists. It's not "not believing" in something for which no logical proof exists. If you're really concerned with the rules of the English language, take a few moments and learn about logical fallacies (begging the question) and double negatives.
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year2027
God's Kind first
my friend raf "sorry"
God is ony a picture that we made as God's Kind
I am not not here trying to get in any illusion that i believe in
God is a illusion and God is real
one can be a lie and the truth also
the key is searching man,s weakness of lie against God's truth
anything man writes has man's lies in it
but it also has a little God;s truth
when we speak in tonges we premtote illusions with a little truth
that what the written word is illusions with small parts of truth
we must search out the truth over the illusions
with love and a holy kiss roy
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year2027
God frist
Science saids the sky is red not blue
light is a illusion it is not real because it is 9 sen old
the are ghost stars because some stars are already dead
look it up
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Raf
Thank you, waysider, for pointing out what should have been the obvious. I never said I know God doesn't exist, and if you've paid any attention to this thread, you can see that I had a specific post about it. Which means either that johniam has not really read the thread and all my comments, he's lying, or he lacks basic reading comprehension skills. Since b and c require me to engage in a personal attack, i'll go ahead and hope the answer is a, he hasn't read the thread. Because it would be wrong and against the rules to call someone a liar or an idiot.
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Raf
Recap: when I said:
What I meant was:
Agnosticism is a feature of every point on that scale except 1 and 7. Most atheists I have encountered are a 6. Some like to get clever and say "6.9999." The point is, they don't pretend to "know that they know that they know" there is no God. But they're pretty confident on the subject. That confidence may sometimes come off as certainty, but that's because we're all human and we don't stand around qualifying every single sentence we utter. When I said in my opening post on this thread that I say in my heart there is no God, I said it with confidence, not certainty.
What I meant was NOT
Well, ONE of us is speaking English here, but his name does not rhyme with Ron Eye Yam. Enough double speak and twisting people's words around, John. E nuff.
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waysider
Sometimes these verbal gymnastics remind me of that old kids' game, "Mother, may I?"
"Take two steps forward."
(takes two steps forward.)
"Ha!... you didn't say "Mother, may I?".
edit:
"Yeah, but permission was implied."
re-edit:
or was it? :biglaugh:/>
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Raf
The shifting of the burden of proof is the age-old tactic of theism, and it is what John is doing here.
He asserts that I have no proof for the claim there is no devil, and therefore the position that there is no devil requires faith.
Bull. That is a lie.
There is no need for me to disprove a proposition for which there is no proof in the first place. It is not the responsibility of unbelievers to disprove Zeus, Allah, Vishnu. Thor, Odin, Willy Wonka, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, leprechauns, fairies, goblins, gremlins, E.T.'s, Peter Pan, Candy Man, the bogeyman, werewolves, vampires, succubbi, drop dead fred, Satan, or God. It takes faith to believe in any of those things. Not believing in them does not take faith.
The burden is on the person who believes in those things to prove those things. Continuing to believe in those things despite being unable to prove them takes faith.
Rejecting any of those claims does NOT take faith. It is simply an expression of my opinion that you have not met the burden of proof.
Remember, the burden of proof always falls on the person making an AFFIRMATIVE claim.
"There is no God" is not an affirmative claim. It does not await proof. And no matter how you try to rephrase it, it will never be an affirmative claim. An affirmative claim is one that asserts something exists or happened, etc.
"There is no devil" is not an affirmative claim.
Your failure to prove your claim is sufficient reason for me to disbelieve it. It doesn't become my responsibility to disprove your claim. You're the one with faith, not I.
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Sudo
Whoa whoa now, Raf.. you're going a little bit too far now. You were right on about everything else but did you have to include succubbi in the list? Sure belief in fairies, gods and devils is B.S., no doubt, but succubbis are for real dude. I know. I can feel their truth in my dreams. Beautiful pixie like harbingers of pleasure that come to me in my most needful moments. Anyone who doesn't accept them are going to Hell..
sudo
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year2027
God first
thanks Raf
why fight over anything johniam has a right to believe as he wants do you understand the bible understanding of faith it sure does not sound like
because there two meaning to faith
love Roy
thanks johniam
i have faith too but my believing is weak
love Roy
Faith is something that you can not prove it you believe it anyway
beiving is something that has proven to be truth you saw it your own two eyes
the two kinds of faith
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Raf
You've convinced me.
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waysider
Is there a teenage boy in this world who would deny their existence?
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Rocky
Why does ANYONE care what Raf believes? Why does anyone care what johniam believes? Bottom line, Raf came to change his beliefs and shared what that means to him and how he reasoned it out. Nobody else's beliefs are jeopardized by a person doing that, are they?
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Raf
Agreed, Rocky. And I shared my "conversion" because of the nature of this forum, the discussions we have and the positions I have taken in the past. If this were a forum of Battlestar Galactica fans, I would not have mentioned it.
Of course, a fan of Battlestar Galactica who later changes his mind is never accused of never having been a real fan in the first place.
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johniam
quote:
Second, there seems to be a defense mechanism built into some Christians that requires them to slander those who once embrace and later leave the faith as never having truly been believers.
I posted that you were no different than me. How could I "slander" you? Am I also slandering myself?
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T-Bone
what if they were a Cylon and didn't know it?
a Battlestar Galactica fan who is a Cylon but doesn't know it.
oh that's frackked up!
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waysider
edit: Too far off-topic.
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Raf
If you are suggesting that you have secretly been atheist all along, I accept your confession with some genuine surprise.
If you are suggesting that I have been secretly atheist all along, that makes you a liar, a bearer of false witness, a slanderer.
Telling the truth about yourself does not give you license to lie about other people.
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CKnapp3
Hi Raf!
Well, first off, I'm back after a rather long absence.
Thank you for your candor and honesty about confessing to becoming an atheist.
While I do believe in the existance of the higher power, commonly called "God", I do not believe God is a person that either needs or demands worship, as if he were an egomaniac (I do understand the personification of God however).
I would fall to about #3 on your scale between 1 and 7 (Basically a deist). However, while I do believe in an afterlife, I don't know exactly what it's going to be like. As many of you know, I have embraced Christian Universalism for over 10 years now (That is the belief that everyone will be reconciled to God someday). Currently, I'm considering, that even if there is a higher dimension in the afterlife, there will be no post-mortem judgment of any kind (If I may quote scripture here, it says that "He who is dead is free from sin" [Romans 6:7].) That being said, why would there be a need for such a judgment if we have in fact been freed from sin? The only other possibility is that we return to earth with a new and different identity (known as "reincarnation"). I was asked by my pastor last year what I expect when I die. I repsonded that I don't know, since I do believe that my human mind will cease upon my death. My human mind cannot fathom what a spiritual mind is like.
Raf, I know that when you were a Christian, we had our differences on what a Christian is. Of course we have dialogued quite often at Facebook and have had some of the best conversations ever.
Oh yes, and when I do see you in Heaven there WON'T be any 'splaining to do! Not from you, not from me, nor anyone else! :)
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Raf
Back when I was running the Living Epistles Society website and forum, I intended to make it a "safe haven" for Christian ex-followers of TWI, but I soon realized that I had put myself in the unenviable position of having to decide who was and was not a Christian. I made a lot of judgment calls (Mormons - no, Jehovah;s Witnesses, yes). But I was really uncomfortable with being in that position. Chuck, if your views are now what they were then, I can see why I would not have considered you Christian, but really, it is SO not my place to judge. It never was.
It was easier to abandon the site than it was to manage it.
In any event, you have always been very gracious about it and I had forgotten our "clash" or whatever you want to call it. I'm grateful for your acceptance and forgiveness.
Peace.
Oh, and welcome back.
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