So, if you paid $100 dollars for the class, did you only get half as "blessed" as the person who paid $200? And what about those poor souls who were only able to get $40 worth of blessing?
Speaking in tongues was the worm at the end of the hook that was PFAL. It was bait.
You promise "power" in the title of the class. You build up to the manifestation of that power. And then, when the time comes, you lead them into a totally phony display of so-called power that can't be verified, allegedly can't be refuted, etc.
I agree with that interpretation of what happened, without qualification.
With everyone in the class performing the same totally non-spiritual action while imagining that everyone else around them is experiencing the real thing, there was an incredible amount of pressure on each person to refrain from spilling the beans. No one, myself included, had the courage to stand up and say, "BUT HE'S NAKED!!!"
I disagree here, and I shall explain the difference between our opinions.
Yes, it was 100% fraud.
Yes, having a roomful of people there all doing it was highly conducive to peer pressure, groupthink, etc.
I would expect SOME graduates might have freely faked it at the time, knowing they were
faking it, and either thought they were the only person in the room who faked it,
or even thought it was a roomful of fraud but kept silent for their own reasons
(peer pressure, etc.)
I would expect MOST graduates would have fallen into the same boat as I did.
We were convinced going in that this class was THE ultimate in learning Big Holy Stuff.
With those expectations inculcated to every new student, Sessions 9-11 set the stage,
outlining the subject, then making it sound like REAL speaking in tongues was expected,
available, easy, and TAUGHT IN THAT CLASS.
Sessions 11 and 12 impart a heavy emotional trip on the naive student.
("Don't you want to speak the wonderful works of God?")
In the process was sprinkled in the actual steps of the physical procedure.
We heard grads SIT each session so we knew what it was "supposed" to sound like.
We were told to vocalize syllables resembling speech and that God Almighty would
organize the syllables into something He wants.
So, when The Moment came, either easily or haltingly, we spoke, and in our naivete,
we legitimately were fooled into thinking it was something godly, and not something
fraudulent. We were fooled. We were mistaken. But we did NOT think, at the time,
we were faking it. We thought something miraculous had happened.
Even now, there are many of us who won't admit this is what happened.
The preceding is my opinion. I apologize if anyone is insulted, but I truly believe that is precisely what happened. The only power at work in PFAL was the power of persuasion and groupthink.
I think you're underestimating the power of persuasion there for many or most of us.
But, yes, even when the entire process was gutted and the organs displayed,
there's people who "refuse to consider" that the whole thing was a fraud.
Now THAT's as fine an example of persuasion and groupthink as I can find.
Decades later, even CONSIDERING there was false teaching isn't even allowed.
It was $200. I remember because I wasn't in the Corps yet and I went to the Rock and talked to our area leader who was Corps. He talked about how excited he was that the new price was $200. I thought the Corps was crazy. He went back for his final year I went back and signed no one up for the class. Then I went in residence. They announced they were going to change it to $40 a few months beforehand. Later we all got yelled at via phone hook up for not continuing to sign people at $200, even though we knew the price was going to drop more than one hundred dollars. Someone said VP was afraid that Christ could come back and some people that should have been in the class might have to go to Hell. I'm not sure if that 2nd part is true.
God would have to be pretty stupid to allow such a thing to happen.
I mean, if He knew that there are people who would believe, but kept them out of heaven because of a church's marketing strategy, that would be pretty darned evil.
I see this as evidence that these people didn't really trust God (or have the slightest idea what they were talking about. Or both).
It sounds like some of both,
but mainly it's evidence of the level of vpw- worship and pfal-worship at the time.
Those of us who got in after vpw's death or during the fog years really never got
a close look at that, except through the eyes of those where WERE in at the time.
It was commonly believed that vpw would be alive to see the return of Jesus Christ,
and there were much more ridiculous claims I don't want to get into now.
(It's enough that they existed and were truly ridiculous.)
So, when twi issued edicts, often fanatics filled in what they were told with
outright fabrications that sounded far nicer than the hidden reality.
When vpw hand-picked lcm against EVERYONE'S advice, we were told, at different
times, that it was by direct revelation, or that it was actually done by a
vote like how Matthias was voted to replace Judas Iscariot. (I was told both,
face-to-face, by different people at different times, and the people who said
both believed what they were saying.) Meanwhile, someone who asked vpw at the
time was told-BY vpw- that it was because lcm always did whatever he said,
without question. Looking at lcm's own accounts, it's clear vpw had this in
mind for several years before it happened.
So, when they were stupid enough to think people would pay $200, and the pfal
enrollments collapsed-and with it, new regulars and their donations-
twi reversed gears and realized they stood more to gain by running more people
through pfal and retaining them at least a few months than by getting fewer
people and retaining them for at least a few months. twi's main income has
always been its REGULARS- and low pfal tuition paved the way for more regulars.
twi's in the religion BUSINESS- and business generally follows the 80/20 rule
and centers around repeat business with the regulars.
So, when the price dropped, the people were either never told why and made up
their own reasons, or were told the stupidest reasons and believed them.
Me, I think that, as news traveled downhill, the reasons began being invented
and people bought them, perhaps being passed on at the Limb level, perhaps
higher or lower.
So, a motivation that is stupid but makes vpw sound like Mother Teresa of Calcutta?
Naturally that caught on, and who was actually going to say
"twi's main income has always been its REGULARS- and low pfal tuition paved the way for more regulars."
Exactly. It didn't really matter WHAT The Way charged for PLAF (The Wonder Class). The objective was to create a cadre of followers who would vow to relinquish a large portion of their income to the organization, on a long term, regular basis. Anything they made on the class, itself, was icing on the cake.
And maybe I'll speak for those that did genuinely manifest tongues ! I knew it, they knew it...enunciated non-repetitive syllabic heavenly/earthly/ mixed tongues...whatever someone else wants to call it, including Jehovahs 'witnesses', tongues :)
Really though, it's pretty much basic business that when you sell something, there is a maximum the public will pay until they decide the cost exceeds the benefits. Nowadays it's called the "tipping point". You can likewise lower a price and increase demand to where business is not impacted much anymore by a price decrease. A for profit business tries to find the maximum amount the public will bear while staying competitive within their respective enterprise.
Should a religious organization have as its primary goal maximizing profits? When TWI raised the price to $200, they really tipped their hand as to what they were all about. But if profit was their goal, they were very foolish in the way they went about it. A sensible business, if that's what they wanted to be, wouldn't have been as extreme as to more than double the price, see it wasn't working out, then slash the price more than half. It just doesn't make sense. I don't think they knew what they were doing religiously or even as a business.
But it gets deeper in my opinion. The problem was, it was thought, there were too many "copped-out grads". Now, the problem couldn't possibly be that the teaching of Wierwille was not enough to hold them. After all, it was believed, PFAL was the greatest teaching of God's Word since the first century. No the problem must be that the people signing up weren't committed enough from the start. The best way to increase commitment, it was thought, was to increase the price. Then, who would of thought, revenue decreases, panic sets in, and the price drops.
No grand scheme, no consideration of long term affects, no research done, just a foolish, haphazard stab at fixing a problem. No logic, bad leadership all the way around and no thought out organization. That's who ran our leadership program known as the Way Corps.
And maybe I'll speak for those that did genuinely manifest tongues ! I knew it, they knew it...enunciated non-repetitive syllabic heavenly/earthly/ mixed tongues...whatever someone else wants to call it, including Jehovahs 'witnesses', tongues :)/>
The thing is, Allan,
I "knew" I did also.
But I based my conclusions- and my convictions- on FAULTY DATA.
When it came time to shine a light on the whole thing,
it just plain collapsed.
Our last thread on that is here:
Free Vocalization
The previous thread, which meandered a lot, is here:
And maybe I'll speak for those that did genuinely manifest tongues ! I knew it, they knew it...enunciated non-repetitive syllabic heavenly/earthly/ mixed tongues...whatever someone else wants to call it, including Jehovahs 'witnesses', tongues :)/>
Sometimes, I think that this bravado of "I speak in tongues" wears VANITY as its badge.
Look at me, look at me! I speak in tongues AND interpret.
BUT.......the other SIX MANIFESTATIONS are hardly mentioned. Why is that?
Well, for one thing.....ACTION and POWER are on full display in the other six.
Casting out spirits? I never saw wierwille attempt it......or fake it.
Miracles? Healings? Heck, twi's directors kick people off staff
who are chronically sick.
The do-nothing, go-to-twig-for-30-years-crowd claim to speak in tongues.....ooooooowwww.
All the while, they feed "the beast" with tithes and offerings.....$57 Million strong.
Allan, I am very proud of you for speaking in tongues. I'm sure you are able to document this miraculous ability, identify the language, prove you had no previous exposure to or education in that language, and collect your million dollars, right?
Even Non-Christians do what we called "speaking in tongues" and have been doing so since long before the days of Christ. It's not unique or mystical. We only thought it was. It was a way to give ourselves unique positioning in the religious world.
Allan, I am very proud of you for speaking in tongues. I'm sure you are able to document this miraculous ability, identify the language, prove you had no previous exposure to or education in that language, and collect your million dollars, right?
Right. I thought not.
For those who missed over 100 pages of discussion on the subject,
Raf's pointing out that The Amazing Randi is prepared to fill out a check
for the successful presentation of something genuinely supernatural
that can be done on command and verified "scientifically"
(by isolating the variables). IF the modern SIT really IS supernatural
in anybody's case, and they really CAN demonstrate the ability to speak
a language they don't know, then that would be demonstrably supernatural.
That person could get a lot of money to put to godly things, silence a
vocal skeptic- AND get him to make a public acknowledgement of the power
of God. Modern SIT is supposed to be something that is genuinely
supernatural and done on command, so it's perfect for this instance-
if it's really the Biblical SIT and not a mundane fake we were told was
Allan, I am very proud of you for speaking in tongues. I'm sure you are able to document this miraculous ability, identify the language, prove you had no previous exposure to or education in that language, and collect your million dollars, right?
Right. I thought not.
Without diving headlong into a previous argument here, do you think you could be a little less Buzz Killington? I'm starting to pick up around here an attitude like people have proven that modern tongues is false and everyone faked it in TWI. No you haven't. Or did we need to revisit all that logic again? God never states anywhere that He will support man's test theories or million dollar "prove it" logic.
For those who missed over 100 pages of discussion on the subject,
Raf's pointing out that The Amazing Randi is prepared to fill out a check
for the successful presentation of something genuinely supernatural
that can be done on command and verified "scientifically"
(by isolating the variables). IF the modern SIT really IS supernatural
in anybody's case, and they really CAN demonstrate the ability to speak
a language they don't know, then that would be demonstrably supernatural.
That person could get a lot of money to put to godly things, silence a
vocal skeptic- AND get him to make a public acknowledgement of the power
of God. Modern SIT is supposed to be something that is genuinely
supernatural and done on command, so it's perfect for this instance-
if it's really the Biblical SIT and not a mundane fake we were told was
the original supernatural thing.
And unfortunately the way God works He wouldn't support that kind of proof any more than He would have been able to if the devil convinced Jesus to throw himself from the top of a ledge so that angels could bear him up.
Even Non-Christians do what we called "speaking in tongues" and have been doing so since long before the days of Christ. It's not unique or mystical. We only thought it was. It was a way to give ourselves unique positioning in the religious world.
wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact. People still do speak in tongues around here, and pray and all that. if you want to share your experience that's fine but you don't speak for me here.
Without diving headlong into a previous argument here, do you think you could be a little less Buzz Killington? I'm starting to pick up around here an attitude like people have proven that modern tongues is false and everyone faked it in TWI. No you haven't. Or did we need to revisit all that logic again?
We went through this for many pages. It's actually very simple and got repeated and reiterated many different ways.
A claim of "No it's isn't" is not provable, so there's no easy way to close the discussion SOLELY from that.
A claim of "Yes it is" is provable. Once it's proven, the "no it isn't" position automatically loses
and the "Yes it is" position wins.
All claims of "Yes it is" have all been from people either refusing to prove it (put up or shut up).
Any claims of "No it isn't" don't have to be proven because that's not conclusive by itself....
...but far more has been brought forth on this particular subject of "no it isn't" than
"Yes it is".
And that's coming from me- and I wanted the evidence to say "Yes it is" and close the case.
With nothing actually doing that, and all the "Yes it is" stuff only OBFUSCATING the issues,
I saw no reason-other than conviction- to say "Yes it is".
We know how to produce fakes that appear identical in every way to what we were taught in
twi. What we were taught in twi doesn't resemble the Biblical stuff in the ways we were taught
it resembled it.
God never states anywhere that He will support man's test theories or million dollar "prove it" logic.
And unfortunately the way God works He wouldn't support that kind of proof any more than He would have been able to if the devil convinced Jesus to throw himself from the top of a ledge so that angels could bear him up.
Equating the supposed ability, completely at-will, anytime, anyplace,
to produce miraculous tongues by the power of God
(which is exactly what we were taught and you're claiming you do now)
with performing a dangerous stunt in the hopes that God Almighty would
protect you from your own foolishness
is a false equivalency.
They are not equal- except to the one who insists they are.
But, the excuse that one can- completely at-will, anytime, anyplace,
produce miraculous tongues by the power of God
EXCEPT UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES
is very convenient.
Can we do it alone? Sure. Can we do it among family? Sure. Can we do it
among friends? Sure. Can we do it among fellow Christians who are strangers?
Sure. Can we do it among fellow Christians who are taping the teaching and
the tongues with them? Sure.
Can we then take that tape and present it to language specialists for analysis?
NO- that's tempting God, so God would have refused to produce a real tongue
in that instance so that the specialist would have suddenly had a God-produced
fake to study which nonetheless sounded just like the real things to all the
people in the room when it was taken.
Can we do it walking down the street? Sure. Can we do it walking into the office
of a scientist? Sure. Can we do it walking into his examination room as he
preps his recording devices? Sure. Can we do it when he turns his recording
devices on?
NO- that's tempting God. We can keep speaking, but, despite sounding just like
the previous stuff, it suddenly won't be a language, and the scientist won't
be able to get any conclusive data off of it.
That's all very, very CONVENIENT, and very, very SPECIFIC.
It can be done under every conceivable circumstance- with the sole exceptions
being "anything which would prove they were actual languages"-
when they suddenly diverge from "unknown language" to "gibberish" without
sounding any different to the veteran listener who's heard it for years.
In short, the only way you know the "prove to not be a language" stuff is any
different at all from the "it's a language but I can't prove it" stuff is
a LEAP OF FAITH that it is different, and your own claim that it is.
The much simpler possibility is that it's exactly the same in each case, and
it wasn't a language when the machines were on, and it wasn't a language when
the machines were off, and that's why it sounds exactly the same under both
conditions- it is exactly the same.
Honestly- going to that degree to refuse to prove your case really just makes
it sound like you're afraid of the results- that you know what they would be
and don't want to see the results.
wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact. People still do speak in tongues around here, and pray and all that. if you want to share your experience that's fine but you don't speak for me here.
The entire crux of your position, which you've stated before,
is that to question whether we were taught the real thing from Pentecost-
the miraculous tongues in their languages of the wonderful works of God
as opposed to possibly having been scammed by someone who has been proven
to have scammed and lied through his professional career on related subjects
AND ON THIS VERY THING-
to question whether he scammed us is the same as questioning
whether there is a God, whether He has a Son, The Lord Jesus Christ,
whether we can experience The Holy Spirit in our lives and look to a Hope,
and so on.
So, to question whether a known liar and scammer lied to us and scammed us
about this specific thing like he lied to us and scammed us on many other
things, is to question the existence of GOD ALMIGHTY.
The thing is,
most Christians of deep convictions throughout the present and past believe
there is a God, Jesus is the Christ, and so on, but don't depend on doctrines
of scammers to support them.
Can someone feel comfort performing "free vocalization"? Sure. And they can
feel comfort on an analyst's couch, or in a hot bath, or in a nap.
Doesn't mean there's anything supernatural about any of them.
"wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact."
It is, indeed, a fact that what we called speaking in tongues (also called glossolalia) is not limited solely to Christians and has been around much longer than Christianity. This "fact" is irrelevant to your experience or mine. How people use it and perceive it is a whole other matter but it's lengthy historical existence is simply a fact, not an opinion.
"wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact."
It is, indeed, a fact that what we called speaking in tongues (also called glossolalia) is not limited solely to Christians and has been around much longer than Christianity. This "fact" is irrelevant to your experience or mine. How people use it and perceive it is a whole other matter but it's lengthy historical existence is simply a fact, not an opinion.
and again, not to rehash but gloassalallia is not proven to be 100% same as speaking in tongues.
We went through this for many pages. It's actually very simple and got repeated and reiterated many different ways.
A claim of "No it's isn't" is not provable, so there's no easy way to close the discussion SOLELY from that.
A claim of "Yes it is" is provable. Once it's proven, the "no it isn't" position automatically loses
and the "Yes it is" position wins.
I disagree that the "yes it is" is provable. And again you are getting spun up into a page and a half long post here. my position is God designed SIT for people's PRIVATE prayer lives, not for public exploitation and the collection of a million dollars.
I really don't want to rehash all the errors taught in way classes, or be misinterpreted again that I support all that. I will leave it at that.
I resent being told that I am stating something is fact when I specifically labeled it my opinion. I do not have to reiterate that it is my opinion every single time I post on the subject. I stated it clearly as I could.
If you think something magical is going on, that's your opinion. You don't want to prove it? That's your prerogative. I'm not asking you to.
But when I express my opinion and clearly label it my opinion, I don't expect to get lectured to about trying to pass off my opinion as fact. Clear?
***
Further reflection: I am objecting to a comment that was not directed at me. My apologies to chockfull. I stand by what I said above, but not why I said it.
I don't know exactly how SIT got pulled into this thread, but it appeared to be on - topic and skyrider didn't seem to object, so I guess it's on-topic. My first post was intended to be limited to how I thought TWI used SIT both as bait and as a kind of self - deception that was socially reinforced. Again, on-topic. Allan proceeded to challenge an aspect of my point, and I responded to him. Nothing more. Is that "Buzz Killington"? Maybe. I don't see it as my job to sustain someone's buzz, especially when I think that buzz is based on a spiked drink.
All that said, this thread is seriously threatening to derail, so I'm sure no one will mind if I bow out for the time being.
I resent being told that I am stating something is fact when I specifically labeled it my opinion. I do not have to reiterate that it is my opinion every single time I post on the subject. I stated it clearly as I could.
If you think something magical is going on, that's your opinion. You don't want to prove it? That's your prerogative. I'm not asking you to.
But when I express my opinion and clearly label it my opinion, I don't expect to get lectured to about trying to pass off my opinion as fact. Clear?
***
Further reflection: I am objecting to a comment that was not directed at me. My apologies to chockfull. I stand by what I said above, but not why I said it.
not directed at you. I respect that others have different opinions than myself on this matter. Actually after thread review SPECIFICALLY not directed at you. You clearly state views as your opinion in post #22. I just request equal reciprocal respect.
It's not my intent to take this thread off-track or discuss the ins and outs of speaking in tongues. My point is simply this: We were led to believe we were spiritually special, noble if you please. It started with two essential ingredients of the PFAL class, believing and speaking in tongues. Take those two things out of the class and it just becomes another Sunday School lesson...a poor one, at that. But, like it or not, that's the thread that holds the whole PFAL series together. We supposedly had unique knowledge on these subjects that were hard or next to impossible to find anywhere else. Wierwille used that angle to set himself up as an authority figure and instructed a small inner circle of followers how to do the same. Meanwhile, we felt like we had an inside track that other groups only hoped for. We had an elitist, aristocratic attitude. We thought of ourselves as being spiritually noble. Well, we were THE BEST!, after all. Wierwille said so himself.
edit: My apologies to chockful. I did a poor job of trying to make my point and didn't mean anything to be taken personally.
It's not my intent to take this thread off-track or discuss the ins and outs of speaking in tongues. My point is simply this: We were led to believe we were spiritually special, noble if you please. It started with two essential ingredients of the PFAL class, believing and speaking in tongues. Take those two things out of the class and it just becomes another Sunday School lesson...a poor one, at that. But, like it or not, that's the thread that holds the whole PFAL series together. We supposedly had unique knowledge on these subjects that were hard or next to impossible to find anywhere else. Wierwille used that angle to set himself up as an authority figure and instructed a small inner circle of followers how to do the same. Meanwhile, we felt like we had an inside track that other groups only hoped for. We had an elitist, aristocratic attitude. We thought of ourselves as being spiritually noble. Well, we were THE BEST!, after all. Wierwille said so himself.
edit: My apologies to chockful. I did a poor job of trying to make my point and didn't mean anything to be taken personally.
I absolutely agree with you that the classes and ministry in general instilled a spiritual elitist attitude that was definitely surrounding this topic of gifts of the spirit or manifestations. Oh and no worries on taking things personal. I'm just standing up for beliefs too.
I don't know exactly how SIT got pulled into this thread, but it appeared to be on - topic and skyrider didn't seem to object, so I guess it's on-topic.
Yeah.....its a side-topic [speaking in tongues] that I referenced regarding wierwille. Although the thrust of this thread was to point out that, I believe, the class-based model was what prompted vpee to forge ahead independently.....NOT that he was deeply spirit-driven for the Lord.
For me, I think that doubt and confusion enter because wierwille's practical application and lifestyle regarding the manifestations was so blurred. Yes, we see it there in the Scriptures.....but didn't see it from our leaders.
Personally, I have seen the power of God on several occasions.....many of which, were days when I was least expecting it. Or, another way to say it....I was not actively engaged in speaking in tongues for it. Healings. Signs. Wonders.
But I must say.....that the ritual of twig manifestations, 3X a week and/or "believer's meetings EVERY morning with sleepy, snarky wow family sure put a damper on "hearing from God." Oh, vanity of vanities. I am firmly in the camp that these manifestations are present AND available......BUT NOT THERE ON A WHIM OR 'LOOK HOW SPIRITUAL I AM' SIGN TO UNBELIEVERS.
For me, wierwille muddied the waters by his blatant disregard to live with spiritual integrity.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
9
10
11
9
Popular Days
Jul 26
24
Jul 25
16
Jul 8
7
Jul 10
4
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 9 posts
skyrider 10 posts
WordWolf 11 posts
waysider 9 posts
Popular Days
Jul 26 2014
24 posts
Jul 25 2014
16 posts
Jul 8 2014
7 posts
Jul 10 2014
4 posts
Popular Posts
Allan
My apologies to Raf if he felt challenged by me simply because I stated something that is real to me and some others on this site. It's great, you have your opinion and I have mine. I did not intend t
skyrider
For some 12 years, wierwille struggled with the pathway before him....admittedly, he wanted to bolt from his church pastorate and move into business. Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, delve
Raf
God would have to be pretty stupid to allow such a thing to happen. I mean, if He knew that there are people who would believe, but kept them out of heaven because of a church's marketing strategy, t
waysider
So, if you paid $100 dollars for the class, did you only get half as "blessed" as the person who paid $200? And what about those poor souls who were only able to get $40 worth of blessing?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I agree with that interpretation of what happened, without qualification.
I disagree here, and I shall explain the difference between our opinions.
Yes, it was 100% fraud.
Yes, having a roomful of people there all doing it was highly conducive to peer pressure, groupthink, etc.
I would expect SOME graduates might have freely faked it at the time, knowing they were
faking it, and either thought they were the only person in the room who faked it,
or even thought it was a roomful of fraud but kept silent for their own reasons
(peer pressure, etc.)
I would expect MOST graduates would have fallen into the same boat as I did.
We were convinced going in that this class was THE ultimate in learning Big Holy Stuff.
With those expectations inculcated to every new student, Sessions 9-11 set the stage,
outlining the subject, then making it sound like REAL speaking in tongues was expected,
available, easy, and TAUGHT IN THAT CLASS.
Sessions 11 and 12 impart a heavy emotional trip on the naive student.
("Don't you want to speak the wonderful works of God?")
In the process was sprinkled in the actual steps of the physical procedure.
We heard grads SIT each session so we knew what it was "supposed" to sound like.
We were told to vocalize syllables resembling speech and that God Almighty would
organize the syllables into something He wants.
So, when The Moment came, either easily or haltingly, we spoke, and in our naivete,
we legitimately were fooled into thinking it was something godly, and not something
fraudulent. We were fooled. We were mistaken. But we did NOT think, at the time,
we were faking it. We thought something miraculous had happened.
I think you're underestimating the power of persuasion there for many or most of us.
But, yes, even when the entire process was gutted and the organs displayed,
there's people who "refuse to consider" that the whole thing was a fraud.
Now THAT's as fine an example of persuasion and groupthink as I can find.
Decades later, even CONSIDERING there was false teaching isn't even allowed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
It sounds like some of both,
but mainly it's evidence of the level of vpw- worship and pfal-worship at the time.
Those of us who got in after vpw's death or during the fog years really never got
a close look at that, except through the eyes of those where WERE in at the time.
It was commonly believed that vpw would be alive to see the return of Jesus Christ,
and there were much more ridiculous claims I don't want to get into now.
(It's enough that they existed and were truly ridiculous.)
So, when twi issued edicts, often fanatics filled in what they were told with
outright fabrications that sounded far nicer than the hidden reality.
When vpw hand-picked lcm against EVERYONE'S advice, we were told, at different
times, that it was by direct revelation, or that it was actually done by a
vote like how Matthias was voted to replace Judas Iscariot. (I was told both,
face-to-face, by different people at different times, and the people who said
both believed what they were saying.) Meanwhile, someone who asked vpw at the
time was told-BY vpw- that it was because lcm always did whatever he said,
without question. Looking at lcm's own accounts, it's clear vpw had this in
mind for several years before it happened.
So, when they were stupid enough to think people would pay $200, and the pfal
enrollments collapsed-and with it, new regulars and their donations-
twi reversed gears and realized they stood more to gain by running more people
through pfal and retaining them at least a few months than by getting fewer
people and retaining them for at least a few months. twi's main income has
always been its REGULARS- and low pfal tuition paved the way for more regulars.
twi's in the religion BUSINESS- and business generally follows the 80/20 rule
and centers around repeat business with the regulars.
So, when the price dropped, the people were either never told why and made up
their own reasons, or were told the stupidest reasons and believed them.
Me, I think that, as news traveled downhill, the reasons began being invented
and people bought them, perhaps being passed on at the Limb level, perhaps
higher or lower.
So, a motivation that is stupid but makes vpw sound like Mother Teresa of Calcutta?
Naturally that caught on, and who was actually going to say
"Hey, wait a minute", at least out loud?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"twi's main income has always been its REGULARS- and low pfal tuition paved the way for more regulars."
Exactly. It didn't really matter WHAT The Way charged for PLAF (The Wonder Class). The objective was to create a cadre of followers who would vow to relinquish a large portion of their income to the organization, on a long term, regular basis. Anything they made on the class, itself, was icing on the cake.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
WW: I don't disagree with your critique of my post. I think I spoke for some people, while you probably spoke for most.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
And maybe I'll speak for those that did genuinely manifest tongues ! I knew it, they knew it...enunciated non-repetitive syllabic heavenly/earthly/ mixed tongues...whatever someone else wants to call it, including Jehovahs 'witnesses', tongues :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
Really though, it's pretty much basic business that when you sell something, there is a maximum the public will pay until they decide the cost exceeds the benefits. Nowadays it's called the "tipping point". You can likewise lower a price and increase demand to where business is not impacted much anymore by a price decrease. A for profit business tries to find the maximum amount the public will bear while staying competitive within their respective enterprise.
Should a religious organization have as its primary goal maximizing profits? When TWI raised the price to $200, they really tipped their hand as to what they were all about. But if profit was their goal, they were very foolish in the way they went about it. A sensible business, if that's what they wanted to be, wouldn't have been as extreme as to more than double the price, see it wasn't working out, then slash the price more than half. It just doesn't make sense. I don't think they knew what they were doing religiously or even as a business.
But it gets deeper in my opinion. The problem was, it was thought, there were too many "copped-out grads". Now, the problem couldn't possibly be that the teaching of Wierwille was not enough to hold them. After all, it was believed, PFAL was the greatest teaching of God's Word since the first century. No the problem must be that the people signing up weren't committed enough from the start. The best way to increase commitment, it was thought, was to increase the price. Then, who would of thought, revenue decreases, panic sets in, and the price drops.
No grand scheme, no consideration of long term affects, no research done, just a foolish, haphazard stab at fixing a problem. No logic, bad leadership all the way around and no thought out organization. That's who ran our leadership program known as the Way Corps.
This was, indeed, an example of groupthink.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
The thing is, Allan,
I "knew" I did also.
But I based my conclusions- and my convictions- on FAULTY DATA.
When it came time to shine a light on the whole thing,
it just plain collapsed.
Our last thread on that is here:
Free Vocalization
The previous thread, which meandered a lot, is here:
SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Sometimes, I think that this bravado of "I speak in tongues" wears VANITY as its badge.
Look at me, look at me! I speak in tongues AND interpret.
BUT.......the other SIX MANIFESTATIONS are hardly mentioned. Why is that?
Well, for one thing.....ACTION and POWER are on full display in the other six.
Casting out spirits? I never saw wierwille attempt it......or fake it.
Miracles? Healings? Heck, twi's directors kick people off staff
who are chronically sick.
The do-nothing, go-to-twig-for-30-years-crowd claim to speak in tongues.....ooooooowwww.
All the while, they feed "the beast" with tithes and offerings.....$57 Million strong.
Yeah.....keep beating your chest on that one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Allan, I am very proud of you for speaking in tongues. I'm sure you are able to document this miraculous ability, identify the language, prove you had no previous exposure to or education in that language, and collect your million dollars, right?
Right. I thought not.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Even Non-Christians do what we called "speaking in tongues" and have been doing so since long before the days of Christ. It's not unique or mystical. We only thought it was. It was a way to give ourselves unique positioning in the religious world.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
For those who missed over 100 pages of discussion on the subject,
Raf's pointing out that The Amazing Randi is prepared to fill out a check
for the successful presentation of something genuinely supernatural
that can be done on command and verified "scientifically"
(by isolating the variables). IF the modern SIT really IS supernatural
in anybody's case, and they really CAN demonstrate the ability to speak
a language they don't know, then that would be demonstrably supernatural.
That person could get a lot of money to put to godly things, silence a
vocal skeptic- AND get him to make a public acknowledgement of the power
of God. Modern SIT is supposed to be something that is genuinely
supernatural and done on command, so it's perfect for this instance-
if it's really the Biblical SIT and not a mundane fake we were told was
the original supernatural thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Without diving headlong into a previous argument here, do you think you could be a little less Buzz Killington? I'm starting to pick up around here an attitude like people have proven that modern tongues is false and everyone faked it in TWI. No you haven't. Or did we need to revisit all that logic again? God never states anywhere that He will support man's test theories or million dollar "prove it" logic.
And unfortunately the way God works He wouldn't support that kind of proof any more than He would have been able to if the devil convinced Jesus to throw himself from the top of a ledge so that angels could bear him up.
wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact. People still do speak in tongues around here, and pray and all that. if you want to share your experience that's fine but you don't speak for me here.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
We went through this for many pages. It's actually very simple and got repeated and reiterated many different ways.
A claim of "No it's isn't" is not provable, so there's no easy way to close the discussion SOLELY from that.
A claim of "Yes it is" is provable. Once it's proven, the "no it isn't" position automatically loses
and the "Yes it is" position wins.
All claims of "Yes it is" have all been from people either refusing to prove it (put up or shut up).
Any claims of "No it isn't" don't have to be proven because that's not conclusive by itself....
...but far more has been brought forth on this particular subject of "no it isn't" than
"Yes it is".
And that's coming from me- and I wanted the evidence to say "Yes it is" and close the case.
With nothing actually doing that, and all the "Yes it is" stuff only OBFUSCATING the issues,
I saw no reason-other than conviction- to say "Yes it is".
We know how to produce fakes that appear identical in every way to what we were taught in
twi. What we were taught in twi doesn't resemble the Biblical stuff in the ways we were taught
it resembled it.
Equating the supposed ability, completely at-will, anytime, anyplace,
to produce miraculous tongues by the power of God
(which is exactly what we were taught and you're claiming you do now)
with performing a dangerous stunt in the hopes that God Almighty would
protect you from your own foolishness
is a false equivalency.
They are not equal- except to the one who insists they are.
But, the excuse that one can- completely at-will, anytime, anyplace,
produce miraculous tongues by the power of God
EXCEPT UNDER SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES
is very convenient.
Can we do it alone? Sure. Can we do it among family? Sure. Can we do it
among friends? Sure. Can we do it among fellow Christians who are strangers?
Sure. Can we do it among fellow Christians who are taping the teaching and
the tongues with them? Sure.
Can we then take that tape and present it to language specialists for analysis?
NO- that's tempting God, so God would have refused to produce a real tongue
in that instance so that the specialist would have suddenly had a God-produced
fake to study which nonetheless sounded just like the real things to all the
people in the room when it was taken.
Can we do it walking down the street? Sure. Can we do it walking into the office
of a scientist? Sure. Can we do it walking into his examination room as he
preps his recording devices? Sure. Can we do it when he turns his recording
devices on?
NO- that's tempting God. We can keep speaking, but, despite sounding just like
the previous stuff, it suddenly won't be a language, and the scientist won't
be able to get any conclusive data off of it.
That's all very, very CONVENIENT, and very, very SPECIFIC.
It can be done under every conceivable circumstance- with the sole exceptions
being "anything which would prove they were actual languages"-
when they suddenly diverge from "unknown language" to "gibberish" without
sounding any different to the veteran listener who's heard it for years.
In short, the only way you know the "prove to not be a language" stuff is any
different at all from the "it's a language but I can't prove it" stuff is
a LEAP OF FAITH that it is different, and your own claim that it is.
The much simpler possibility is that it's exactly the same in each case, and
it wasn't a language when the machines were on, and it wasn't a language when
the machines were off, and that's why it sounds exactly the same under both
conditions- it is exactly the same.
Honestly- going to that degree to refuse to prove your case really just makes
it sound like you're afraid of the results- that you know what they would be
and don't want to see the results.
The entire crux of your position, which you've stated before,
is that to question whether we were taught the real thing from Pentecost-
the miraculous tongues in their languages of the wonderful works of God
as opposed to possibly having been scammed by someone who has been proven
to have scammed and lied through his professional career on related subjects
AND ON THIS VERY THING-
to question whether he scammed us is the same as questioning
whether there is a God, whether He has a Son, The Lord Jesus Christ,
whether we can experience The Holy Spirit in our lives and look to a Hope,
and so on.
So, to question whether a known liar and scammer lied to us and scammed us
about this specific thing like he lied to us and scammed us on many other
things, is to question the existence of GOD ALMIGHTY.
The thing is,
most Christians of deep convictions throughout the present and past believe
there is a God, Jesus is the Christ, and so on, but don't depend on doctrines
of scammers to support them.
Can someone feel comfort performing "free vocalization"? Sure. And they can
feel comfort on an analyst's couch, or in a hot bath, or in a nap.
Doesn't mean there's anything supernatural about any of them.
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"wayside I still disagree with this. And you are stating it as fact."
It is, indeed, a fact that what we called speaking in tongues (also called glossolalia) is not limited solely to Christians and has been around much longer than Christianity. This "fact" is irrelevant to your experience or mine. How people use it and perceive it is a whole other matter but it's lengthy historical existence is simply a fact, not an opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
How do they get away with being non-profit? Also with the millions they've go squirreled away. Aren't those millions profit?
Edited by outandaboutLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I don't know if, technically, they're listed as a non-profit.
I know they're listed as a church. As such, they're not taxed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
and again, not to rehash but gloassalallia is not proven to be 100% same as speaking in tongues.
I disagree that the "yes it is" is provable. And again you are getting spun up into a page and a half long post here. my position is God designed SIT for people's PRIVATE prayer lives, not for public exploitation and the collection of a million dollars.
I really don't want to rehash all the errors taught in way classes, or be misinterpreted again that I support all that. I will leave it at that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I resent being told that I am stating something is fact when I specifically labeled it my opinion. I do not have to reiterate that it is my opinion every single time I post on the subject. I stated it clearly as I could.
If you think something magical is going on, that's your opinion. You don't want to prove it? That's your prerogative. I'm not asking you to.
But when I express my opinion and clearly label it my opinion, I don't expect to get lectured to about trying to pass off my opinion as fact. Clear?
***
Further reflection: I am objecting to a comment that was not directed at me. My apologies to chockfull. I stand by what I said above, but not why I said it.
Edited by RafLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I don't know exactly how SIT got pulled into this thread, but it appeared to be on - topic and skyrider didn't seem to object, so I guess it's on-topic. My first post was intended to be limited to how I thought TWI used SIT both as bait and as a kind of self - deception that was socially reinforced. Again, on-topic. Allan proceeded to challenge an aspect of my point, and I responded to him. Nothing more. Is that "Buzz Killington"? Maybe. I don't see it as my job to sustain someone's buzz, especially when I think that buzz is based on a spiked drink.
All that said, this thread is seriously threatening to derail, so I'm sure no one will mind if I bow out for the time being.
Peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
not directed at you. I respect that others have different opinions than myself on this matter. Actually after thread review SPECIFICALLY not directed at you. You clearly state views as your opinion in post #22. I just request equal reciprocal respect.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
It's not my intent to take this thread off-track or discuss the ins and outs of speaking in tongues. My point is simply this: We were led to believe we were spiritually special, noble if you please. It started with two essential ingredients of the PFAL class, believing and speaking in tongues. Take those two things out of the class and it just becomes another Sunday School lesson...a poor one, at that. But, like it or not, that's the thread that holds the whole PFAL series together. We supposedly had unique knowledge on these subjects that were hard or next to impossible to find anywhere else. Wierwille used that angle to set himself up as an authority figure and instructed a small inner circle of followers how to do the same. Meanwhile, we felt like we had an inside track that other groups only hoped for. We had an elitist, aristocratic attitude. We thought of ourselves as being spiritually noble. Well, we were THE BEST!, after all. Wierwille said so himself.
edit: My apologies to chockful. I did a poor job of trying to make my point and didn't mean anything to be taken personally.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I absolutely agree with you that the classes and ministry in general instilled a spiritual elitist attitude that was definitely surrounding this topic of gifts of the spirit or manifestations. Oh and no worries on taking things personal. I'm just standing up for beliefs too.
Edited by chockfullLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah.....its a side-topic [speaking in tongues] that I referenced regarding wierwille. Although the thrust of this thread was to point out that, I believe, the class-based model was what prompted vpee to forge ahead independently.....NOT that he was deeply spirit-driven for the Lord.
For me, I think that doubt and confusion enter because wierwille's practical application and lifestyle regarding the manifestations was so blurred. Yes, we see it there in the Scriptures.....but didn't see it from our leaders.
Personally, I have seen the power of God on several occasions.....many of which, were days when I was least expecting it. Or, another way to say it....I was not actively engaged in speaking in tongues for it. Healings. Signs. Wonders.
But I must say.....that the ritual of twig manifestations, 3X a week and/or "believer's meetings EVERY morning with sleepy, snarky wow family sure put a damper on "hearing from God." Oh, vanity of vanities. I am firmly in the camp that these manifestations are present AND available......BUT NOT THERE ON A WHIM OR 'LOOK HOW SPIRITUAL I AM' SIGN TO UNBELIEVERS.
For me, wierwille muddied the waters by his blatant disregard to live with spiritual integrity.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.