I'm not trying to silence anyone. John is perfectly free to disagree with anything said here and openly express his disagreement. All I'm asking is that he adhere to the rules and try to give a logical explanation for his position, rather than constantly trying to usurp threads that are critical of The Way and its derivatives. He could have put the thread right back on track by answering the question I asked him.
My dad came to visit me once at Emporia. LCM went off on one of his rants and my dad thought it was funny. He had met Craig prior so he liked him. My dad and I went grab a bite and he mentioned that he thought Martindale was a good speaker. I commented that he sure was upset to which my dad chuckled and said,"No, he knew exactly what he was doing. He was working the crowd."
I pitied my father then, because he, "just couldn't see it." He would have been 52 then and I was at the ripe old age of 19. Frankly, I still find it hard to believe there was intentional staging. I just don't think those guys were that smart.
A few years later, when I was in-residence corps, we all took a trip to Wichita for a "Day in the Word" and VPW was the featured speaker. Way productions had just finished performing and having done so, broke down their mics while someone announced, "Ladies and gentlemen, the President and Founder of the Way International, Dr. VICTOR PAUL WIERWILLE"!!WOO-HOO!! The crowd cheers and out comes Wierwille from stage right and he has his arms spread at hip height, as if to say, "Bless you my children." He took about 3 steps and ran into one of the mics and this big, loud, "KA-THUNK!" sound resonated throughout the auditorium. So it was, "Ladies and gentlemen...etc." (pause) KA-THUNK! I thought it was hysterical but I had to stifle my laugh because I was wearing a green name tag and all. I thought, "That's on you man. You weren't watching." But you know someone got chewed out for that. The thing is, that's the only thing I remember from the event.
Sunesis no longer posts here. When she did, she posted of an experience she had with VPW. It seems the two of them were having a casual conversation under a shade tree, when a third party came into the vicinity. VPW had some sort of beef with the person about a previous incident. He jumped right into character and lambasted the other person. After the person left, he winked and settled right back into a relaxed mode, telling Sunesis (I'm paraphrasing.) "Sometimes you have to get spiritually angry." That's a staged presentation, though it didn't involve an actual stage. He knew he was doing it. He indicated that much in his conversation.
The thing is, we didn't always know we were doing it. We were, at times, playing off a script that had been written for us and didn't even know it.
Sunesis no longer posts here. When she did, she posted of an experience she had with VPW. It seems the two of them were having a casual conversation under a shade tree, when a third party came into the vicinity. VPW had some sort of beef with the person about a previous incident. He jumped right into character and lambasted the other person. After the person left, he winked and settled right back into a relaxed mode, telling Sunesis (I'm paraphrasing.) "Sometimes you have to get spiritually angry." That's a staged presentation, though it didn't involve an actual stage. He knew he was doing it. He indicated that much in his conversation.
The thing is, we didn't always know we were doing it. We were, at times, playing off a script that had been written for us and didn't even know it.
well we in the corps had this behavior modeled for us, and we were specifically coached to behave in this fashion. the myriad of vp and lcm mimics I've encountered have been hysterical. one in particular was a nerd trying to act all western tough. I was always like wtf are you trying to be around that guy.
I choose gentleness. Nothing is won by force. I choose to be gentle. If I raise my voice may it be only in praise. If I clench my fist, may it be only in prayer. If I make a demand, may it be only of myself.
Max Lucado
This is a quote from the daily devotional, "This Day's thought."
Max Lucado is a hero to me because he lives the Christianity I read about in the Bible, in my opinion. He has a book "Dad Time," which tells how the world looks to a loving father who loves his wife and has raised two precious daughters. I also have experienced this change, having watched my son Paul grow to love his daughter Emma, who he would rather die than yell at. (And Paul's dad was a master yeller.)
Just saying that the shepherd doesn't yell at sheep he wants to call home, only when he wants to scatter them for some reason. And a loving father a loving husband a loving wife a loving friend does not yell. There is no record of Jesus yelling. Not when he SAID to the moneychangers in the temple, "You have made my father's house a den of thieves." He cried from the cross, but that is understandable, I think, given the agony of the moment. And no stress of having run into a microphone because of one's own stupidity ranks to that category, in my opinion.
And Emma at 3 1/2 draws a picture of her dad. Paul did not rant that it wasn't a true likeness, but cherished it (and sent it to me) and he and Rachel cherish anything she draws (or sings or writes, or says, etc. etc.)
A few years later, when I was in-residence corps, we all took a trip to Wichita for a "Day in the Word" and VPW was the featured speaker. Way productions had just finished performing and having done so, broke down their mics while someone announced, "Ladies and gentlemen, the President and Founder of the Way International, Dr. VICTOR PAUL WIERWILLE"!!WOO-HOO!! The crowd cheers and out comes Wierwille from stage right and he has his arms spread at hip height, as if to say, "Bless you my children." He took about 3 steps and ran into one of the mics and this big, loud, "KA-THUNK!" sound resonated throughout the auditorium. So it was, "Ladies and gentlemen...etc." (pause) KA-THUNK! I thought it was hysterical but I had to stifle my laugh because I was wearing a green name tag and all. I thought, "That's on you man. You weren't watching." But you know someone got chewed out for that. The thing is, that's the only thing I remember from the event.
I just have to throw in here, I've read about people applauding this guy when he started to speak, and well, that just seems weird to me. I've never seen a minister being applauded in church when he's teaching the Word. And I've been to a couple of TV preachers, Joyce Meyer, and Andrew Wommack, and when they come out (after the music and stuff) to teach, they just start teaching, nobody applauds them like they are some freaking rock star.
I honestly don't remember if they did that at the Naperville offshoot I went to in the 90s, I really have zoned most of that out. But to applaud the preacher? Weird, weird weird.
Hookay, back to your thread, sorry for hijacking it.
"Hookay, back to your thread, sorry for hijacking it."
That's not hijacking.
The pre-sermon applause is exactly the kind of scripted thing I'm referring to. Only, I'm more interested in how you felt when you suddenly realized you'd been used as an actor in a scripted performance.
"Hookay, back to your thread, sorry for hijacking it."
That's not hijacking.
The pre-sermon applause is exactly the kind of scripted thing I'm referring to. Only, I'm more interested in how you felt when you suddenly realized you'd been used as an actor in a scripted performance.
Very good question waysider, and I think I'm just getting the gist of that now. And it is soooooooo true.
"Hookay, back to your thread, sorry for hijacking it."
That's not hijacking.
The pre-sermon applause is exactly the kind of scripted thing I'm referring to. Only, I'm more interested in how you felt when you suddenly realized you'd been used as an actor in a scripted performance.
You know it's weird and I don't fully understand it. But I feel a sense of relief for some reason. I mean all those condemning things I heard from pulpits and stuff were just contrived and these guys were a bunch of idiots. I used to feel so unworthy around those guys, how ridiculous now that all seems. So I feel a sense of freedom to be who I am.
I just have to throw in here, I've read about people applauding this guy when he started to speak, and well, that just seems weird to me. I've never seen a minister being applauded in church when he's teaching the Word. And I've been to a couple of TV preachers, Joyce Meyer, and Andrew Wommack, and when they come out (after the music and stuff) to teach, they just start teaching, nobody applauds them like they are some freaking rock star.
I honestly don't remember if they did that at the Naperville offshoot I went to in the 90s, I really have zoned most of that out. But to applaud the preacher? Weird, weird weird.
Hookay, back to your thread, sorry for hijacking it.
How about standing AND applauding?
I've caught twi doing the "I will trick you into standing for the speaker" thing.
We sang songs, and were asked to stand for the last one, and were standing while we
finished it and the speaker came out. Nobody had the nerve to be honest about
What could be cheesier than a fake standing ovation?
lol waysider. But it's not just cheesy, it's completely inappropriate at least, and at most, idolatry. The congregants are not an audience. And the preacher should not be drawing attention to themselves. I know that some churches have you stand for the initial reading of the Word of God. If you ever catch John Hagee on TV he does this all the time. He'll crack open the bible and tell everyone to stand for the Word, then have them sit after a minute or so.
When I went to see Joyce Meyer back in 2007, she has a huge production. Hillsong and Darlene Zschech were there. The worship was actually too big and loud for me. I was zoning out, when I heard this "OPEN YOUR BIBLES PEOPLE!" and I looked up and there she was just ripping right into the word. It was like, Whoa, where did she come from?
The Word should be the "star" not the preacher. I guess most of us were so naive we just didn't know any better and didn't have anything to compare it too. Outside of the RCC which is where many wayfers came from, I think.
If I EVER went to any church today, where they applauded the preacher, and actually STOOD for the person preaching it, I would be appalled.
It's ironic because I was just watching the Andy Griffith Show yesterday, and in this one episode, some preacher from New York comes to guest speak at "All Souls Church" and when Reverend Tucker introduces him, Barney starts to applaud and Andy has to shush him. Even Andy knew it was inappropriate! lol.
Coming back to add, I have heard preachers say something like "Let's give God praise" and people might applaud, but NEVER the preacher. In normal churches that is.
Soon after I got into TWI (which was in the UK of course), Gartmore was purchased and many of the Brit believers went up to help get it ready one way and there was an opening ceremony. We slept on camp beds in the gym which also doubled as the auditorium. Quite good fun. But then, the gym turned into the auditorium with a stage and lecturn etc. I was with some WoWs and we ended up in the front few rows. Enter CG at stage right. Everyone stood up for his entrance and applauded. I was bewildered by this but at the prodding of the WoWs who'd brought me, also stood up. And this beaming EGO bounced onto the stage, basking in the applause, and then gently shushing the congregation whilst egging them on a bit too. It gave me the creeps.
Other things happened and I rapidly understood that very weekend that he said one thing publicly and was quite different (nastily so) privately. I saw right through him that weekend.
I was unsurprised when the split from Ohio took place. No decision for me.
Just to throw this in, I found this blog, written by a praise and worship team leader who travels to different churches. It opened my eyes to even applauding singers and musicians. Excuse me, but WHY are we clapping? I won't reprint the whole thing, but here are some interesting observations from this person.
The last church visit we did really opened my eyes about something the church has gotten into the habit of doing and I truly believe it does not please the Lord.The music was led by your standard praise and worship team. After the last song ended, absolutely no one in that entire congregation began clapping. My fleshly man wanted to really give it a good round of applause (!) but not one soul in there did a thing. They just remained standing, some heads bowed, but just stood — silently.
The hair stood up on the back of my neck! I felt the Lord's presence as never before. And no, we're not talking about "feelings" here. We're talking about the Lord's presence.It suddenly hit me: People in churches are not clapping in thanksgiving to the Lord when they do. They/WE are actually telling the 'performers up front' thank you for entertaining me! Immediately I knew the Lord was showing me that real worship requires no outward signs of approval from men. It wasn't a Broadway show, it was a service of Worship to our God and King.
Would somebody please tell me why we applaud singers at church? We don't applaud people when they pray.We don't applaud the preacher when he preaches or the teacher when he teaches or the ushers when they pass around the plate. Does anyone applaud the greeters or the nursery workers for their performance each week? How about the folks that mow the grass on Saturday or clean the restrooms on Monday; does anybody clap for them? I'll bet your church secretary has never received a round of applause – unless she's in the choir, of course. No, the reality is, we applaud singers almost exclusively. Why? Because that's what our entertainment-oriented world has taught us to do.
There is more to the article, but this is the main jist of it. I found it thought-provoking.
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WordWolf
Or, you know, click the PLUS button right by the Reply button.
excathedra
my old cranky grandfather (RIP) was always talking and b*tching about phony people - "awwwww they're all a bunch of phonies" my brother asked him shortly before he died if he had any advice for livin
excathedra
okay even if i get sent to doctrinal..... when lcm yelled, i don't think he yelled at any spirits. i think he yelled at sweet believers who loved god and jesus christ with all their hearts same with
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Twinky
Time to go to Soap Opera, methinks.
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excathedra
i have a real problem with soap opera but that's just me
it's like go smother or kill off anyone we don't like to listen to
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waysider
I'm not trying to silence anyone. John is perfectly free to disagree with anything said here and openly express his disagreement. All I'm asking is that he adhere to the rules and try to give a logical explanation for his position, rather than constantly trying to usurp threads that are critical of The Way and its derivatives. He could have put the thread right back on track by answering the question I asked him.
Can we return to topic now?
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Broken Arrow
My dad came to visit me once at Emporia. LCM went off on one of his rants and my dad thought it was funny. He had met Craig prior so he liked him. My dad and I went grab a bite and he mentioned that he thought Martindale was a good speaker. I commented that he sure was upset to which my dad chuckled and said,"No, he knew exactly what he was doing. He was working the crowd."
I pitied my father then, because he, "just couldn't see it." He would have been 52 then and I was at the ripe old age of 19. Frankly, I still find it hard to believe there was intentional staging. I just don't think those guys were that smart.
A few years later, when I was in-residence corps, we all took a trip to Wichita for a "Day in the Word" and VPW was the featured speaker. Way productions had just finished performing and having done so, broke down their mics while someone announced, "Ladies and gentlemen, the President and Founder of the Way International, Dr. VICTOR PAUL WIERWILLE"!!WOO-HOO!! The crowd cheers and out comes Wierwille from stage right and he has his arms spread at hip height, as if to say, "Bless you my children." He took about 3 steps and ran into one of the mics and this big, loud, "KA-THUNK!" sound resonated throughout the auditorium. So it was, "Ladies and gentlemen...etc." (pause) KA-THUNK! I thought it was hysterical but I had to stifle my laugh because I was wearing a green name tag and all. I thought, "That's on you man. You weren't watching." But you know someone got chewed out for that. The thing is, that's the only thing I remember from the event.
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waysider
Sunesis no longer posts here. When she did, she posted of an experience she had with VPW. It seems the two of them were having a casual conversation under a shade tree, when a third party came into the vicinity. VPW had some sort of beef with the person about a previous incident. He jumped right into character and lambasted the other person. After the person left, he winked and settled right back into a relaxed mode, telling Sunesis (I'm paraphrasing.) "Sometimes you have to get spiritually angry." That's a staged presentation, though it didn't involve an actual stage. He knew he was doing it. He indicated that much in his conversation.
The thing is, we didn't always know we were doing it. We were, at times, playing off a script that had been written for us and didn't even know it.
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excathedra
oh i'm so confused about the point of all this i'm sorry
i DO KNOW FOR A FACT there were times when getting yelled at really f'd me up
ok that's all i have to say on the subject for now
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chockfull
well we in the corps had this behavior modeled for us, and we were specifically coached to behave in this fashion. the myriad of vp and lcm mimics I've encountered have been hysterical. one in particular was a nerd trying to act all western tough. I was always like wtf are you trying to be around that guy.
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Kit Sober
Max Lucado
This is a quote from the daily devotional, "This Day's thought."
Max Lucado is a hero to me because he lives the Christianity I read about in the Bible, in my opinion. He has a book "Dad Time," which tells how the world looks to a loving father who loves his wife and has raised two precious daughters. I also have experienced this change, having watched my son Paul grow to love his daughter Emma, who he would rather die than yell at. (And Paul's dad was a master yeller.)
Just saying that the shepherd doesn't yell at sheep he wants to call home, only when he wants to scatter them for some reason. And a loving father a loving husband a loving wife a loving friend does not yell. There is no record of Jesus yelling. Not when he SAID to the moneychangers in the temple, "You have made my father's house a den of thieves." He cried from the cross, but that is understandable, I think, given the agony of the moment. And no stress of having run into a microphone because of one's own stupidity ranks to that category, in my opinion.
And Emma at 3 1/2 draws a picture of her dad. Paul did not rant that it wasn't a true likeness, but cherished it (and sent it to me) and he and Rachel cherish anything she draws (or sings or writes, or says, etc. etc.)
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waysider
Cool! Now THAT'S how compare and contrast works.
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RottieGrrrl
I just have to throw in here, I've read about people applauding this guy when he started to speak, and well, that just seems weird to me. I've never seen a minister being applauded in church when he's teaching the Word. And I've been to a couple of TV preachers, Joyce Meyer, and Andrew Wommack, and when they come out (after the music and stuff) to teach, they just start teaching, nobody applauds them like they are some freaking rock star.
I honestly don't remember if they did that at the Naperville offshoot I went to in the 90s, I really have zoned most of that out. But to applaud the preacher? Weird, weird weird.
Hookay, back to your thread, sorry for hijacking it.
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waysider
"Hookay, back to your thread, sorry for hijacking it."
That's not hijacking.
The pre-sermon applause is exactly the kind of scripted thing I'm referring to. Only, I'm more interested in how you felt when you suddenly realized you'd been used as an actor in a scripted performance.
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RottieGrrrl
Very good question waysider, and I think I'm just getting the gist of that now. And it is soooooooo true.
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Broken Arrow
You know it's weird and I don't fully understand it. But I feel a sense of relief for some reason. I mean all those condemning things I heard from pulpits and stuff were just contrived and these guys were a bunch of idiots. I used to feel so unworthy around those guys, how ridiculous now that all seems. So I feel a sense of freedom to be who I am.
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waysider
" So I feel a sense of freedom to be who I am."
It's an appropriate day to feel like you're free.
Happy Independence Day.
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WordWolf
How about standing AND applauding?
I've caught twi doing the "I will trick you into standing for the speaker" thing.
We sang songs, and were asked to stand for the last one, and were standing while we
finished it and the speaker came out. Nobody had the nerve to be honest about
having done it deliberately.
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waysider
What could be cheesier than a fake standing ovation?
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RottieGrrrl
lol waysider.
But it's not just cheesy, it's completely inappropriate at least, and at most, idolatry. The congregants are not an audience. And the preacher should not be drawing attention to themselves. I know that some churches have you stand for the initial reading of the Word of God. If you ever catch John Hagee on TV he does this all the time. He'll crack open the bible and tell everyone to stand for the Word, then have them sit after a minute or so.
When I went to see Joyce Meyer back in 2007, she has a huge production. Hillsong and Darlene Zschech were there. The worship was actually too big and loud for me. I was zoning out, when I heard this "OPEN YOUR BIBLES PEOPLE!" and I looked up and there she was just ripping right into the word. It was like, Whoa, where did she come from?
The Word should be the "star" not the preacher. I guess most of us were so naive we just didn't know any better and didn't have anything to compare it too. Outside of the RCC which is where many wayfers came from, I think.
If I EVER went to any church today, where they applauded the preacher, and actually STOOD for the person preaching it, I would be appalled.
It's ironic because I was just watching the Andy Griffith Show yesterday, and in this one episode, some preacher from New York comes to guest speak at "All Souls Church" and when Reverend Tucker introduces him, Barney starts to applaud and Andy has to shush him. Even Andy knew it was inappropriate! lol.
Coming back to add, I have heard preachers say something like "Let's give God praise" and people might applaud, but NEVER the preacher. In normal churches that is.
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Twinky
Soon after I got into TWI (which was in the UK of course), Gartmore was purchased and many of the Brit believers went up to help get it ready one way and there was an opening ceremony. We slept on camp beds in the gym which also doubled as the auditorium. Quite good fun. But then, the gym turned into the auditorium with a stage and lecturn etc. I was with some WoWs and we ended up in the front few rows. Enter CG at stage right. Everyone stood up for his entrance and applauded. I was bewildered by this but at the prodding of the WoWs who'd brought me, also stood up. And this beaming EGO bounced onto the stage, basking in the applause, and then gently shushing the congregation whilst egging them on a bit too. It gave me the creeps.
Other things happened and I rapidly understood that very weekend that he said one thing publicly and was quite different (nastily so) privately. I saw right through him that weekend.
I was unsurprised when the split from Ohio took place. No decision for me.
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RottieGrrrl
Just to throw this in, I found this blog, written by a praise and worship team leader who travels to different churches. It opened my eyes to even applauding singers and musicians. Excuse me, but WHY are we clapping? I won't reprint the whole thing, but here are some interesting observations from this person.
The last church visit we did really opened my eyes about something the church has gotten into the habit of doing and I truly believe it does not please the Lord. The music was led by your standard praise and worship team. After the last song ended, absolutely no one in that entire congregation began clapping. My fleshly man wanted to really give it a good round of applause (!) but not one soul in there did a thing. They just remained standing, some heads bowed, but just stood — silently.
The hair stood up on the back of my neck! I felt the Lord's presence as never before. And no, we're not talking about "feelings" here. We're talking about the Lord's presence. It suddenly hit me: People in churches are not clapping in thanksgiving to the Lord when they do. They/WE are actually telling the 'performers up front' thank you for entertaining me! Immediately I knew the Lord was showing me that real worship requires no outward signs of approval from men. It wasn't a Broadway show, it was a service of Worship to our God and King.
Would somebody please tell me why we applaud singers at church? We don't applaud people when they pray. We don't applaud the preacher when he preaches or the teacher when he teaches or the ushers when they pass around the plate. Does anyone applaud the greeters or the nursery workers for their performance each week? How about the folks that mow the grass on Saturday or clean the restrooms on Monday; does anybody clap for them? I'll bet your church secretary has never received a round of applause – unless she's in the choir, of course. No, the reality is, we applaud singers almost exclusively. Why? Because that's what our entertainment-oriented world has taught us to do.
There is more to the article, but this is the main jist of it. I found it thought-provoking.
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