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PFAL Perception was EVERYTHING


skyrider
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So there's no God and there's no devil. It's all just perception?

quote: I would phrase this as it's hard to fall hook line and sinker without cutting off opposing information from friends, family, and ministers.

There is a God. There is a devil. And people want to take God and put him in their shirt pocket, and call everyone else around them with a different viewpoint the devil. The worst example of this is Westboro Baptist Church.

Skyrider has forgotten more about this than you and I will ever know.

No he has not. But I enjoy his posts.

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Magoo was one of the characters in the 1968 movie the Glory Stompers.

quote:

You know, the dirty little secret is that PFAL was, well, boring!

Was it, now? Sure it was. It led to all these posts, didn't it. But, yes, it was boring. Especially all the parts where...let's see...

Sincere religious people who were full of devil spirits. Baptized it and called it Christianity. The fear in the heart and the life of that mother. Plus the integrity of the word to tell on all of them. Yeah, bored the hell out of me.

I think it was boring. But you have a point, if it was so boring, why are there so many of us, including me?

I guess I really shouldn't have said PFAL was boring. Clearly a lot of people didn't think so. I should just say that, to me, it was unimpressive and a yawner. It certainly doesn't stand, in my opinion, as one of the great expositions of the Bible.

I'm a little curious. Would you please explain to me what you mean when you say, "Sincere religious people who were full of devil spirits"?, "Baptized it and called it Christianity"? Baptized what, PFAL? "The integrity of the Word to tell on all of them"? To tell what on all of who? I'm not trying to be a smart foot, I really don't understand what you're saying.

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Was it, now? Sure it was. It led to all these posts, didn't it. But, yes, it was boring. Especially all the parts where...let's see...

If it wasn't boring the first time, it sure was the 20th time with all of the grads parroting VP's stupid jokes (apple butter and split pea soup anyone?) and drilling holes into the back of the heads of the students with their eyes making sure they don't fall asleep then waking them up rubbing their shoulders with a "bless you" so they don't miss any of that vital material.

Sincere religious people who were full of devil spirits. Baptized it and called it Christianity. The fear in the heart and the life of that mother. Plus the integrity of the word to tell on all of them. Yeah, bored the hell out of me.

I'm sorry not understanding. Are you leaking PFAL quotes as you travel down the road?

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For the record,

vpw claiming the imaginary woman killed her imaginary son with her imaginary believing (imaginary reverse-fear)

rather than the imaginary car that hit him wasn't boring.

It was error-ridden, it was un-Christian New Age thinking, and it was imaginary

but told as if it was real people you could have met on the street or seen in

the news. But it was too FICTIONAL to be boring.

Then again, the 2 fictional mean men who used their New Age visualization to think

and become rich, donate lots of money, and remain hated by their community

in between sitting alone in a room with nothing but vpw's clairvoyance seeing them

(Honestly- how did he supposedly know they were sitting for hours thinking,

AND WHAT THEY WERE THINKING, if they were behind closed doors?),

those guys were boring AND fictional. However, both the imaginary woman and

the imaginary men were used to support vpw's imaginary doctrine of the so-called

"law" of believing that fails all the time.

But their imaginary examples led to the belief that was PERCEIVED that pfal was

profound and had deep truths in it. It took lots of made-up examples, and lots

of INDOCTRINATION, but eventually it was made to work.

If you're told something is the be-all and end-all, and that it's exciting, and

everyone around you insists it's exciting, you're going to get excited about it-

at least until you get some experience yourself and can form a separate opinion.

Even then, a lot of people stayed quiet about pfal being boring and just went

along with things until they realized it was all built on sand.

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I remember a class coordinator during his opening shpeel stating that PFAL was God's epistle to the church today.

I heard this many, many times. In fact, there is a poster that hasn't been here for a while who believes that PFAL replaced the Bible and that when Christ returns he will be holding a PFAL book in his right hand..

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God did not use VP to draw you closer to our lord and savior. However, the Bible study, the fellowship, and the genuine Christian actions you took and others around you took and the fellowship you had while in TWI were God getting to you despite circumstances and choices. I made a choice to join TWI.

I don't know. That's how I look at it.

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i'm not sure about all of this

i'm torn

between god using anything to draw us closer to him and our lord savior

at the same time i know damn well he would never want me sexually assaulted by veepee

advice anyone?

There is preaching, and there is teaching, and they weren't always the same thing, especially in PFAL. When Wierwille preached in PFAL, he often said things that were quite true, like "The integrity of the Word is always at stake!" Yet when he taught, he often taught the exact opposite, like "We have to rightly divide the Word of Truth." To divide the Word of Truth is by definition, to destroy its integrity.

In PFAL, Wierwille had a section where he preached on how important it is to get "to whom" correct, and he was right about that. But as he taught in the very same section, he used Romans 9-11 as an example, and taught that Romans 9:1-11:12 is addressed to Israel while Romans 11:13-36 is addressed to Gentiles. All we would have had to do would have been to actually READ that section of Romans to see that the WHOLE thing was addressed to the Christians in Rome, and Wierwille was lying through his teeth. I can't speak for anybody else, but I can certainly say I never caught Wierwille's deception until much later.

When Wierwille spoke truth about God, and people believed it, God was able to work with those people. As we stayed with TWI and became more and more indoctrinated with Wierwille's errors, God was able to do less and less with us. At least that's how it seems to me.

God has ALWAYS been a good guy. Wierwille... not so much...

Love,

Steve

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quote: So there's no God and there's no devil. It's all just perception?

If you're God, then, yes, your perception is literally everything, but if you're not God, then your perception is just another brick in the wall and if the wall is built on the rock Christ it will end well, but if it's built on anything else it won't. You're going to be a brick in somebody's wall; might as well be the right one!

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quote: So there's no God and there's no devil. It's all just perception?

If you're God, then, yes, your perception is literally everything, but if you're not God, then your perception is just another brick in the wall and if the wall is built on the rock Christ it will end well, but if it's built on anything else it won't. You're going to be a brick in somebody's wall; might as well be the right one!

Aside from repeated reference to the word "perception", this has no bearing on the concept of this thread.

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quote:

I'm a little curious. Would you please explain to me what you mean when you say, "Sincere religious people who were full of devil spirits"?, "Baptized it and called it Christianity"? Baptized what, PFAL? "The integrity of the Word to tell on all of them"? To tell what on all of who? I'm not trying to be a smart foot, I really don't understand what you're saying.

I was responding to your opinion that pfal was boring. IMO, one thing that made pfal not boring was the separation VP made between religion and true Christianity. That connected a lot of dots for a lot of people. The integrity of the word made the bible the written standard for faith and practice. We could show people from scripture that Jesus isn't God, the dead are dead, and SIT did NOT go out with the first century apostles. That's what rattled the adversary's cage and what made us a cult. The adversary's religion division's only defense to that was to shout us down. CULT! CULT! CULT! It pretty well worked, too.

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quote:

I'm a little curious. Would you please explain to me what you mean when you say, "Sincere religious people who were full of devil spirits"?, "Baptized it and called it Christianity"? Baptized what, PFAL? "The integrity of the Word to tell on all of them"? To tell what on all of who? I'm not trying to be a smart foot, I really don't understand what you're saying.

I was responding to your opinion that pfal was boring. IMO, one thing that made pfal not boring was the separation VP made between religion and true Christianity. That connected a lot of dots for a lot of people.

Some 40 hours of vpw, and a few good points (NOT unique to twi no matter what we were told

and often common knowledge among Christians today) were not enough to transform the rest

from "boring", even if that HAD been interesting (which I'm not stipulating to.)

The integrity of the word made the bible the written standard for faith and practice. We could show people from scripture that Jesus isn't God, the dead are dead, and SIT did NOT go out with the first century apostles.

Most of us couldn't actually "show from Scripture that Jesus isn't God" or "the dead are dead".

We could spit back what was taught by rote memorization, but the exceptions were the ones

who studied those out on their own. No matter what vpw claimed in pfal, he actively discouraged

independent study outside of pfal if it was on pfal-related subjects.

And pfal made weak cases for each, larded with lots of bluster. If all either belief had

going for it was what vpw taught, I'd have discarded them decades ago.

As for SIT NOT going out with the first-century apostles,

that may or may not be true.

However, what was taught in twi, and has since been taught to post-twi groups,

that has NOTHING to do with Biblical SIT except to hear people insist that it

is the same thing as Biblical SIT despite all the differences.

If Biblical SIT exists now and is "available" now, to find it, one will first need to discard

any and all counterfeits- like the one vpw demonstrated so clumsily and by rote.

"U shanta mala ka sita la shonta." (He said that one ALL the freaking time.)

If one is busy pretending pfal, twi and vpw were the be-all and quintessence of Christianity,

one will never get there because they're convinced they've already "arrived" and can laze about

without ever beginning their journey.

That's what rattled the adversary's cage and what made us a cult. The adversary's religion division's only defense to that was to shout us down. CULT! CULT! CULT! It pretty well worked, too.

It saves a lot of time and effort to declare oneself right by fiat and never bother to

get out and look for wisdom and truth. Of course, the consequence is never finding wisdom

and truth, but security and comfort are more important to some people, so I can get they'd

value those more.

The PERCEPTION of pfal was stacked.....in wierwille's favor.

* ...for months, some of the sign-ups were "building expectations" of what this class would be.

* ...WOW ambassadors were excited to run the class, because it proclaimed THEIR success.

* ...the class instructor coached the grads to act excited, applaud and laugh at vpee's jokes.

* ...twi claimed that ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED by the end of the class.

* ...oftentimes, there were more GRADS in the pfal class, than new students.

* ...if everyone else is SO EXCITED about this, then what am I missing?

* ...no one gets missed. Everyone manifests power from on high.

* ...peer pressure, as the 12th session arrived. No utterance is gibberish.

And.....to those who had doubts, well you just need to sit thru the class AGAIN. See, it's a lot of information and you learn more every time you sit thru pfal. Be patient. You get to sit in subsequent foundational classes.....free.

Learning is an exciting adventure, isn't it?

The indoctrination process has begun. You sign up for the next class to "fill in the blanks" where you still have doubts. You cannot help but doubt yourself.......others seem to "get it." Sure, there are nuggets of truth plagiarized from other men's works......but THE WHOLE PACKAGE? Masterfully put together?

Wierwille had employed the art of marketing.....PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. Having seven students sit in a quiet setting to hear the pfal class was not nearly as effective as bolstering support with ten grads who are actively coached to respond. And, let's not forget about the assigned-undershepherder.....the one who, most likely, signed the person up for the class and is responsible to monitor their progress and alleviate their doubts [ie...help recruit them].

MLM 101

Edited by WordWolf
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It's a matter of opinion. At least it wasn't plagiarized.

It's also a matter of perception.

In this case, he didn't actually READ the post, so it's not even an INFORMED perception.

He looked, saw a few paragraphs, and declared them "boring" regardless of content.

For him in particular, the content would have been interesting and controversial.

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I used to teach Humane Letters to seventh graders. I had a section on aesthetics, or the art of how we use our senses. The section was based on the three occurrences of aisthesis and its cognates in the Greek New Testament (Luke 9:45a, Philippians 1:9 and Hebrews 5:14). As time went by and I developed the section, the emphasis shifted from aesthetics to judgment. We had a class on formal logic, but we taught nothing explicitly about judgment, without which, logic is like a ship without a rudder. For the students, I defined judgment as paying attention to what you are paying attention to, and thinking about what you are thinking about, mental activity.

At one point, I would ask the students to give a one word definition for the opposite of aesthetics or judgment. The opposite of the definition would be failing to pay attention to what you are paying attention to, and failing to think about what you are thinking about, mental inactivity... or, in one word... BOREDOM!

Boredom is a state of mind, and is not inherent in any subject. Subjects can be dull... sometimes DEADLY dull... but when that is the case, we simply need to pay MORE attention to what we're paying attention to, and to think MORE SHARPLY about what we're thinking about.

Was PFAL dull? Yes and no.

As far as intellectual content went... it was VERY dull, but as far as emotional ambiance went, it was VERY exciting. And that was part of its appeal. Intellectually, we were lulled into a suspension of critical thinking, emotionally, we were caught up in the scripted, uniform enthusiasm of the grads; "I'm so EXCITED!" Instead of responding to the dullness of the material by paying more attention and thinking more sharply about the content of PFAL, we were distracted by all the phoney, stage managed "excitement". It was very hypnotic.

So people's perceptions of PFAL varied considerably, based on the individual's experience and how much the person was swayed by the deliberate psychological manipulation. But as far as the marketing of PFAL, perception WAS everything. What ever truth there was in PFAL was incidental to putting over the scam.

Did Wierwille separate religion and true Christianity? Yes he did... he gave us a definition of God and our relation to Him (through the MOGFODAT) that was extremely religious, and separated Wierwille's followers (us) from true CHRISTIANity.

Was the Bible the written standard for faith and practice? How about the ten commandments (all of which can be found in Genesis before Mt. Sinai, and in the New Testament afterward as well)? How about the Sermon on the Mount? You know, II Timothy 3:16 says All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, ALL Scripture is profitable for reproof, ALL Scripture is profitable for correction, ALL Scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness. So why did Wierwille teach us that we should ignore things like the Lord's Prayer, and the admonition of Romans 11:20 to not be high-minded, as Wierwillle was, but to fear the Lord, as Wierwille did not.

We could show people from the Scripture that "Jesus isn't God," But could we show them from the Scriptures who Jesus actually IS??? Did we even know ourselves? Do we know now??? Not if your learning has failed to go beyond what you heard in PFAL!

Was the adversary's cage rattled? Maybe... but it was NOT because of the prevailing PFAL. The adversary was promoting Wierwille's error just as much as Wierwille was. Was that what made us a cult? No, a cult is an organization that makes its followers deployable to a hidden agenda. When Wierwille used us to stroke his narcissistic ego (some in detestably vile ways), when he used us to satisfy his lust for money and material possessions, when he trained and used us to promote his multi-level marketing scam, with Dale Carnegie material no less... those were the things that made The Way International a CULT!

That was what it was in substance, a cult. That's what it still is in substance, a cult. And no amount of perception can ever change that substance.

Love,

Steve

Edited by Steve Lortz
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quote:

I'm a little curious. Would you please explain to me what you mean when you say, "Sincere religious people who were full of devil spirits"?, "Baptized it and called it Christianity"? Baptized what, PFAL? "The integrity of the Word to tell on all of them"? To tell what on all of who? I'm not trying to be a smart foot, I really don't understand what you're saying.

what this all means is jesus parable that it would be better to drown with a millstone around your neck than offend one of these little ones that believe in him.

I was responding to your opinion that pfal was boring. IMO, one thing that made pfal not boring was the separation VP made between religion and true Christianity. That connected a lot of dots for a lot of people. The integrity of the word made the bible the written standard for faith and practice. We could show people from scripture that Jesus isn't God, the dead are dead, and SIT did NOT go out with the first century apostles. That's what rattled the adversary's cage and what made us a cult. The adversary's religion division's only defense to that was to shout us down. CULT! CULT! CULT! It pretty well worked, too.

After going through PFAL more times in a lifetime than anyone should have to, VP basically constructed a theology around little things - "4 crucified, the day JC died, etc". he used that to get people to doubt mainstream theology, such as would be expressed in say a set of commentaries. (Commentaries were NEVER used in TWI as they were "man's opinion". VP would never let ANOTHER man's opinion hold sway). Commentaries in actuality are a consensus of educated people in a field of study. Then VP used that methodology in insert his theology - against mainstream Christianity. This isolated people off from mainstream Christianity further, to the point now where very few ex TWI people are in mainstream Christianity even after exiting TWI for many years. Isolating from mainstream Christianity also in many, many cases isolated people off from their earthly Christian families, friends, fellowships.

This is very powerful stuff. You are an example. I mean look now, you have not been involved in TWI for many, many years, yet you still have VP's used car salesman rah rah mentality going on about "rattling the adversary's cage, and their only defense was to shout CULT".

The adversary in reality was smiling like a spider as you progressed further and further into his web.

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