I sincerely doubt that TWI or any of its offspring will ever again grow the way it did in its hay day. There are lots of once popular cults that are now deader than door nails. The message of PFAL was dated when Wierwille recorded it. None of his later attempts to re-record it, like in 1977, were successful. None of the TWI material can speak to people today the way it spoke to us in the late-'60s, '70s, and early-'80s.
Some "cults", like the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses survived the deaths of their founders and continued to develop and grow. The Way International did not. It ceased to develop, and imploded. As I have often said, Dave Arneson's invention of recreational role-playing has had, and will continue to have, a vastly more widespread, profitable and loving impact on society and culture than Wierwille's cult.
These guys are just engaged in a role-playing game... but it's not as much fun as D&D.
I sincerely doubt that TWI or any of its offspring will ever again grow the way it did in its hay day. There are lots of once popular cults that are now deader than door nails. The message of PFAL was dated when Wierwille recorded it. None of his later attempts to re-record it, like in 1977, were successful. None of the TWI material can speak to people today the way it spoke to us in the late-'60s, '70s, and early-'80s.
Some "cults", like the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses survived the deaths of their founders and continued to develop and grow. The Way International did not. It ceased to develop, and imploded. As I have often said, Dave Arneson's invention of recreational role-playing has had, and will continue to have, a vastly more widespread, profitable and loving impact on society and culture than Wierwille's cult.
These guys are just engaged in a role-playing game... but it's not as much fun as D&D.
Love,
Steve
I agree.
vpw was willing to go in KNOWING he was deceiving people completely, which the current people,
for all their faults, aren't prepared to do. (Their deceptions are accidental, and they THINK
they're doing the right thing.) vpw tapped into a genuine movement of God among people
and subverted it- but the current remnants aren't doing that and can't. If they try that
"we have the secret knowledge" business in the information age, it will only be successful
for the naive, the inept, and the uneducated. That's a very limited audience, and it's a hard
sell for those people to offer techniques to do supposed research. It's counter-intuitive.
So, vpw was in the "right" place at the "right" time and was fully prepared to deceive people
entirely. That's just not happening here. This is, what, less than 100 Christians NOW?
In another 20 years, I'd expect that number to be more than ALL the ex-twi movements PUT
TOGETHER (with this one less than 20 people entirely.) Look at the numbers-
tiny groups of youngsters, many offspring raised into this, and tiny groups of aging
ex-twi people. That's how you shut down a group, not how you grow it...
Maybe they should have invited Craig...that would have made for an even funnier video
Would even SOWERS stoop so low?
And anyway - it's the Wierwille inheritance that's important. Passing the mantle to the grandson...what VP1 was after. Keeping (from the grave) his family on track.
And anyway - it's the Wierwille inheritance that's important. Passing the mantle to the grandson...what VP1 was after. Keeping (from the grave) his family on track.
Yeah-
when lcm was just getting the big chair as 2nd grand poobah,
vpw announced that his grandson Luke S would be the 3rd grand poobah after lcm.
lcm hadn't even had a chance to put a tushie-print into the chair when vpw
was already announcing lcm's successor. Granted, Luke was a kid at the time,
but still.
When reality intruded, Luke S was nowhere near trying to reclaim vpw's "legacy.
So, some poor kid was indoctrinated to be handed it.
Think about it-
the kid was given the same name AT BIRTH.
All through his childhood, he was fed a line of bull about how his namesake
(plagiarist, rapist, felon in general) was some great one and how the kid
had to pick things up from there and carry them in some noble calling.
So, all the aging 70s hipsters who refused to move on with their lives
pretended the 70s zeitgeist could be captured in a bottle, and told the
poor kid he had to do it. He's been fed a steady diet of recordings of
vpw with nothing about how he was a complete FRAUD.
Poor kid had no chance.
I'm hoping, as he gets older, maybe hits 25, 30 or so,
that he realizes what they did to him and decides to make
a life for himself and distance himself from the name with
I sincerely doubt that TWI or any of its offspring will ever again grow the way it did in its hay day. There are lots of once popular cults that are now deader than door nails. The message of PFAL was dated when Wierwille recorded it. None of his later attempts to re-record it, like in 1977, were successful. None of the TWI material can speak to people today the way it spoke to us in the late-'60s, '70s, and early-'80s.
Some "cults", like the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses survived the deaths of their founders and continued to develop and grow. The Way International did not. It ceased to develop, and imploded. As I have often said, Dave Arneson's invention of recreational role-playing has had, and will continue to have, a vastly more widespread, profitable and loving impact on society and culture than Wierwille's cult.
These guys are just engaged in a role-playing game... but it's not as much fun as D&D.
Love,
Steve
I partly agree and partly disagree.
Clearly TWI is nowhere'sville now. And the pathetically non-eventful ordination of V2P2 does not appear to put anyone or anything on a path similar to the mormons, 7th Day Adventists or JWs. But that doesn't mean somebody charismatically devious can't enter the picture at some point. I'll grant that it's unlikely, but not that it's impossible.
Indeed, I think you're on to something with the role-playing game insight.
i was thinking the vpw kid clone was sarah's and kevin's child
maybe i'm wrong
Kevin and Sara Guigou have three grown children ... twins named Micah and Grant and a daughter named Dottie, all married. Victor Wierwille is John Paul's son....so Sara would be Victor's uncle. SOWERS is sort of part of the ministry that Kevin is ordained in in Tipp City, Ohio .. the one John Shroyer started when he was kicked out. The name escapes me momentarily.
Kevin and Sara Guigou have three grown children ... twins named Micah and Grant and a daughter named Dottie, all married. Victor Wierwille is John Paul's son....so Sara would be Victor's uncle. SOWERS is sort of part of the ministry that Kevin is ordained in in Tipp City, Ohio .. the one John Shroyer started when he was kicked out. The name escapes me momentarily.
Sarah sure dresses funny for an uncle. :biglaugh:/>
Kevin and Sara Guigou have three grown children ... twins named Micah and Grant and a daughter named Dottie, all married. Victor Wierwille is John Paul's son....so Sara would be Victor's uncle. SOWERS is sort of part of the ministry that Kevin is ordained in in Tipp City, Ohio .. the one John Shroyer started when he was kicked out. The name escapes me momentarily.
Yep. V2P2 is JP and Shari's son. JP is VP Wierwille's youngest son. Sara Guigou is VP Wierwille's youngest daughter, a little older than JP. Both families left TWI and have been more or less involved in CFF Christian Family Fellowship, started by John Shroyer, joined by Wayne Clapp. Kevin is the prez now of CFF. One of Shroyer's daughters tried to take over but I think failed. SOWERS is kind of a tangential thing that V2P2 wanted to do to preserve the original "heart" of WOW, and Corps principles. Some folks in CFF owned a farm and let him.
I think it's great. One of the last ROAs I went to the children's fellowship tent was near the big tent and I'm walking to the big tent and I see this 5 year old kid with a nametag that says Victor Paul Wierwille. I took note of it but didn't hear the name again (grandson's) until sowers.
I think it's great. One of the last ROAs I went to the children's fellowship tent was near the big tent and I'm walking to the big tent and I see this 5 year old kid with a nametag that says Victor Paul Wierwille. I took note of it but didn't hear the name again (grandson's) until sowers.
The poor kid doesn't even have his own name. Much less his own mind, his own thoughts, his own life.
One day, he's gonna sit back and think, What's it all about? Where's my life gone? What do Ireally think and believe?
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WordWolf
No. They're young, naive, and lied-to. You remember what that was like.... The worst part is, they have no idea that it has nothing at all to do with them. It's all about the insecurities of the p
GrouchoMarxJr
Back in the 70's when most of us got involved with twi, there was no internet. The information age, as we know it today, did not exist...All a person has to do is google the name Wierwille or The Way
Broken Arrow
[
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krys
Some people are really really sick. As long as they are unwilling to acknowledge it, there is no way to help them.
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Steve Lortz
I sincerely doubt that TWI or any of its offspring will ever again grow the way it did in its hay day. There are lots of once popular cults that are now deader than door nails. The message of PFAL was dated when Wierwille recorded it. None of his later attempts to re-record it, like in 1977, were successful. None of the TWI material can speak to people today the way it spoke to us in the late-'60s, '70s, and early-'80s.
Some "cults", like the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses survived the deaths of their founders and continued to develop and grow. The Way International did not. It ceased to develop, and imploded. As I have often said, Dave Arneson's invention of recreational role-playing has had, and will continue to have, a vastly more widespread, profitable and loving impact on society and culture than Wierwille's cult.
These guys are just engaged in a role-playing game... but it's not as much fun as D&D.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
It must suck being
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WordWolf
I agree.
vpw was willing to go in KNOWING he was deceiving people completely, which the current people,
for all their faults, aren't prepared to do. (Their deceptions are accidental, and they THINK
they're doing the right thing.) vpw tapped into a genuine movement of God among people
and subverted it- but the current remnants aren't doing that and can't. If they try that
"we have the secret knowledge" business in the information age, it will only be successful
for the naive, the inept, and the uneducated. That's a very limited audience, and it's a hard
sell for those people to offer techniques to do supposed research. It's counter-intuitive.
So, vpw was in the "right" place at the "right" time and was fully prepared to deceive people
entirely. That's just not happening here. This is, what, less than 100 Christians NOW?
In another 20 years, I'd expect that number to be more than ALL the ex-twi movements PUT
TOGETHER (with this one less than 20 people entirely.) Look at the numbers-
tiny groups of youngsters, many offspring raised into this, and tiny groups of aging
ex-twi people. That's how you shut down a group, not how you grow it...
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Twinky
Would even SOWERS stoop so low?
And anyway - it's the Wierwille inheritance that's important. Passing the mantle to the grandson...what VP1 was after. Keeping (from the grave) his family on track.
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WordWolf
Yeah-
when lcm was just getting the big chair as 2nd grand poobah,
vpw announced that his grandson Luke S would be the 3rd grand poobah after lcm.
lcm hadn't even had a chance to put a tushie-print into the chair when vpw
was already announcing lcm's successor. Granted, Luke was a kid at the time,
but still.
When reality intruded, Luke S was nowhere near trying to reclaim vpw's "legacy.
So, some poor kid was indoctrinated to be handed it.
Think about it-
the kid was given the same name AT BIRTH.
All through his childhood, he was fed a line of bull about how his namesake
(plagiarist, rapist, felon in general) was some great one and how the kid
had to pick things up from there and carry them in some noble calling.
So, all the aging 70s hipsters who refused to move on with their lives
pretended the 70s zeitgeist could be captured in a bottle, and told the
poor kid he had to do it. He's been fed a steady diet of recordings of
vpw with nothing about how he was a complete FRAUD.
Poor kid had no chance.
I'm hoping, as he gets older, maybe hits 25, 30 or so,
that he realizes what they did to him and decides to make
a life for himself and distance himself from the name with
which he was cursed.
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waysider
Then again, maybe he's hip to the reality and sees it as a chance to ride the gravy train.
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Rocky
I partly agree and partly disagree.
Clearly TWI is nowhere'sville now. And the pathetically non-eventful ordination of V2P2 does not appear to put anyone or anything on a path similar to the mormons, 7th Day Adventists or JWs. But that doesn't mean somebody charismatically devious can't enter the picture at some point. I'll grant that it's unlikely, but not that it's impossible.
Indeed, I think you're on to something with the role-playing game insight.
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Allan
So does anyone think the Jesus hippie movement was a movement of/by God ?
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WordWolf
The "so" suggests there's a connection between this question and the subject of the thread,
but it looks like an attempt at a derail instead.
Why do you ask, and why ask on this thread when making a new thread that's relevant is free?
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waysider
Yes, there are people who think this.
My personal opinion is that the Jesus hippie movement was a cultural reaction to current events and conditions of a turbulent era..
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chockfull
I started a thread for him. It's an interesting question. Maybe people want to discuss.
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excathedra
i was thinking the vpw kid clone was sarah's and kevin's child
maybe i'm wrong
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Allan
Thanks Choc, that's why I asked...no attempt at a 'derailment'at all !!
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waysider
Is he JP's kid?
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HAPe4me
yes, V2P2 is JP and Shari's son, shown with Walter Cummins and Doug McMullen
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DogLover
Kevin and Sara Guigou have three grown children ... twins named Micah and Grant and a daughter named Dottie, all married. Victor Wierwille is John Paul's son....so Sara would be Victor's uncle. SOWERS is sort of part of the ministry that Kevin is ordained in in Tipp City, Ohio .. the one John Shroyer started when he was kicked out. The name escapes me momentarily.
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Rocky
Sarah sure dresses funny for an uncle. :biglaugh:/>
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chockfull
Yep. V2P2 is JP and Shari's son. JP is VP Wierwille's youngest son. Sara Guigou is VP Wierwille's youngest daughter, a little older than JP. Both families left TWI and have been more or less involved in CFF Christian Family Fellowship, started by John Shroyer, joined by Wayne Clapp. Kevin is the prez now of CFF. One of Shroyer's daughters tried to take over but I think failed. SOWERS is kind of a tangential thing that V2P2 wanted to do to preserve the original "heart" of WOW, and Corps principles. Some folks in CFF owned a farm and let him.
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excathedra
oh uh is that JP in the first picture? where is shari?
frikkin mcmullen is on there?
i gotta go look again
how weird all of this is
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excathedra
ok i saw shari
and i believe i got a glimpse of mc mullen
it's too sad
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johniam
I think it's great. One of the last ROAs I went to the children's fellowship tent was near the big tent and I'm walking to the big tent and I see this 5 year old kid with a nametag that says Victor Paul Wierwille. I took note of it but didn't hear the name again (grandson's) until sowers.
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Twinky
One day, he's gonna sit back and think, What's it all about? Where's my life gone? What do I really think and believe?
Hmmmmm.....
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