WordWolf is very right about this not being a simple subject, but it is made even more complex by the King James translation. There are many places where the KJV talks about people being "possessed with a/the devil." So people today talk about those who are possessed BY devils, as if the demons OWN the people.
But in actuality, these verses say that people are "demonized" or influenced by demons. They do NOT say that people are owned by demons.
There are two verses where the Greek word echo, "to have" is used, Acts 8:7 and Acts 16:16. In both of these verses, the demons don't "have" the people, the people "have" the demons.
The whole modern idea of "demon possession" is in many ways bass-ackward from what the Bible actually says...
Within the context of the Advanced Class, it was taught that believers could NOT be possessed... and... that they COULD be possessed. Both positions are found in the AC syllabus. I have cited this contradiction in the past. Like so many other things, I think VPW simply did a cut and paste without understanding what he was copying. For that reason, I wouldn't give much credence to whatever you may have heard in TWI.
Thanks for your posts. This has been a troubling subject to me in and out of TWI. I was repeatedly told how possessed I was in TWI....And you could probably guess how that affected me. And when Out, I questioned it all the time...am I?......am I not? Back and forth. At some time, I kind of let go of it some, but never left me. Then I started getting christian friends and they told me that a christian could not be possessed....Of course, knowing the teaching and only the teaching of TWI on this, I would discard what they said. But, as I had more christians in my life, I would hear this a lot....A christian can not be possessed because you have the spirit of God inside of you....no devil spirit can or wants to be where the spirit of God is. That made a heck of a lot sense to me and So that's why the topic. Even though, I don't know you all, I know you came from the same place as I have and have pursued truth. So, Thank-you for the truth you have shared. I can put it to rest.
I'm glad you can put it to rest, newlife! Christians have nothing to fear from demons. Simply do your best to think and behave the way the Lord wants you to, and the demons can't gain any foothold.
The things Wierwille taught in the Advanced Class were baloney, and he was either knowingly lying or he had been hoodwinked himself.
Accusing people of being possessed was a method TWI leaders used to discredit anybody who disagreed with them, and it became the catch-all explanation for why anybody (except the leaders, of course) failed to comply with expected TWI behavior.
Enjoy the deliverance and freedom you have in Jesus Christ!
Thanks for your posts. This has been a troubling subject to me in and out of TWI. I was repeatedly told how possessed I was in TWI....And you could probably guess how that affected me. And when Out, I questioned it all the time...am I?......am I not? Back and forth.
Mark 5:1-5 (NASB)
1 They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. 2 When He got out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him, 3 and he had his dwelling among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him anymore, even with a chain; 4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him and the shackles broken in pieces, and no one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Constantly, night and day, he was screaming among the tombs and in the mountains, and gashing himself with stones.
Does that sound anything like how you acted when they were accusing you?
If not, they were f'ing morons for trying that accusation.
Me, I probably would have laughed in their faces.
At some time, I kind of let go of it some, but never left me. Then I started getting christian friends and they told me that a christian could not be possessed....Of course, knowing the teaching and only the teaching of TWI on this, I would discard what they said. But, as I had more christians in my life, I would hear this a lot....A christian can not be possessed because you have the spirit of God inside of you....no devil spirit can or wants to be where the spirit of God is. That made a heck of a lot sense to me and So that's why the topic. Even though, I don't know you all, I know you came from the same place as I have and have pursued truth. So, Thank-you for the truth you have shared. I can put it to rest.
If you want to avoid alcoholism, avoid bars.
If you want to avoid advanced demon problems, avoid minor demon problems.
If you want to avoid minor demon problems, avoid sin as best you can,
mentally and physically.
I'm glad you can put it to rest, newlife! Christians have nothing to fear from demons. Simply do your best to think and behave the way the Lord wants you to, and the demons can't gain any foothold.
The things Wierwille taught in the Advanced Class were baloney, and he was either knowingly lying or he had been hoodwinked himself.
Accusing people of being possessed was a method TWI leaders used to discredit anybody who disagreed with them, and it became the catch-all explanation for why anybody (except the leaders, of course) failed to comply with expected TWI behavior.
Enjoy the deliverance and freedom you have in Jesus Christ!
Thanks for your posts. This has been a troubling subject to me in and out of TWI. I was repeatedly told how possessed I was in TWI....And you could probably guess how that affected me.
Standard technique, newlife.
Just about everybody who left or was thrown out had their name blackened and was denounced as being "possessed." And if those who remained in TWI dared contact or associate with the ones who had departed, they too would become "possessed" and would "weaken the ministry."
It was manipulation, pure and simple.
One Rev's daughter killed herself. The Rev and his wife were banished as being possessed and not able to care for their family - it was their fault she had done this. And anyone who contacted the Rev to offer comfort would themselves become possessed.
Does that sound loving? Where are the words of comfort? Where is the kindness?
Another Rev had questions in the fog years. Some close friends, another Corps couple (maybe he was a Rev too) contacted them; this was found out by HQ; the second couple immediately became possessed and were ignominiously thrown out.
Does that sound like kindness? Like the open response that Jesus would give to those who had doubts?
TWI built up fear of the devil, fear of devil spirits ... within TWI you could learn far more about this than about the real and healing power of God and the loving ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Did you ever see Jesus acting in this way towards those who walked away from him? Did any of the apostles behave like this? On the contrary - for example, we see Simon the Sorcerer continuing to hang around with the apostles. And Simon had packed some "big ones."
You are not, and never were, possessed, newlife.
But maybe those who remained and still remain at TWI in face of all they must know, suspect or have observed - maybe they are at least influenced by d.s.
And you could probably guess how that affected me.
Yes, they tried this on me too, and I lived with guilt and fear for years. I was afraid of other Christians - other people! - and ashamed of myself before God.
Thank God, He was not ashamed of me. He found a way to drag me out of that.
I hate those lying evil manipulators for what they have done to ruin so many lives. The best thing you can do, newlife, is to live your life fully, without fear, and love God the best you know how. He loves you and will never abandon or forsake you.
Thank-you for your posts.......whew....you have no idea how this has really helped me out. I've been carrying this question for many, many, years, always wondering if someone would come up and tell me, hey you're possessed. It is very evil for people to tell people this.....And I wish I would of brought this to GSC a long time ago, but at least I have now. Thank you for your posts, your compassion and help. What a freedom you have given to me......Thank-you
Thanks for your posts. This has been a troubling subject to me in and out of TWI. I was repeatedly told how possessed I was in TWI....And you could probably guess how that affected me. And when Out, I questioned it all the time...am I?......am I not? Back and forth. At some time, I kind of let go of it some, but never left me. Then I started getting christian friends and they told me that a christian could not be possessed....Of course, knowing the teaching and only the teaching of TWI on this, I would discard what they said. But, as I had more christians in my life, I would hear this a lot....A christian can not be possessed because you have the spirit of God inside of you....no devil spirit can or wants to be where the spirit of God is. That made a heck of a lot sense to me and So that's why the topic. Even though, I don't know you all, I know you came from the same place as I have and have pursued truth. So, Thank-you for the truth you have shared. I can put it to rest.
NL, I don't know Jack about Devil Spirits. However, I think Mental Health Specialists can help people overcome some of their personal problems. Mine is wonderful; God bless her!!
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WordWolf
I think this is a very complicated subject, with related sub-categories
confused for each other.
As I see it (there's no STANDARDIZED terminology),
there's demonic possession,
demonic obsession,
demonic influence,
and temptation.
With demonic possession, I'm referring to the extreme, when a person has
no more control over their body- a demon is "driving."
I don't think that could happen to a Christian for the aforementioned
reason.
With demonic obsession, the person still technically has control, but is
prepared to choose to do what the demon wants, whether eagerly or
grudgingly, but the result is the demon is in control without actually
driving the person. I see Christians as capable at this stage, and it
can look like demonic possession for most things- like if they commit
murder or something similarly heinous.
With demonic influence, the person's inviting demonic activity and may or
may not cooperate and do what the demon wants.
With temptation, the demon is trying to get some opportunity to act or
influence.
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Steve Lortz
WordWolf is very right about this not being a simple subject, but it is made even more complex by the King James translation. There are many places where the KJV talks about people being "possessed with a/the devil." So people today talk about those who are possessed BY devils, as if the demons OWN the people.
But in actuality, these verses say that people are "demonized" or influenced by demons. They do NOT say that people are owned by demons.
There are two verses where the Greek word echo, "to have" is used, Acts 8:7 and Acts 16:16. In both of these verses, the demons don't "have" the people, the people "have" the demons.
The whole modern idea of "demon possession" is in many ways bass-ackward from what the Bible actually says...
Love,
Steve
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Steve Lortz
sorry... double post...
Edited by Steve LortzLink to comment
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WordWolf
Good point.
Poor terminology can lead to misunderstanding things because someone's trying to
shoehorn their thinking to fit it into accord with a term that is incorrect and
deceptively wrong. The Pharisees accused Jesus of having a devil.
"Demonized" is probably as good a term as any for the subject of demonic activity.
Irrelevant example of stupidity by misunderstanding terms:
Someone once was telling of the resources at their disposal. They started saying
what it was that they "possessed." vpw objected to that term because
"only the devil possesses." If it were true that A devil possesses, then it would
not be true that ONLY A devil possesses, because the term only means something
because there's other usages- like possessing your computer or cellphone or
change for the bus or things like that, or even abstracts like possessing the
ability to whistle or wiggle your ears or whatever. What makes this even MORE
egregious is- as was just mentioned- A devil doesn't actually "possess" the
person according to the Bible. I mean, really, "possessed" is "daimonizomai"
and stuff like that to even a cursory read of an Interlinear. vpw didn't know
any better?
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waysider
Within the context of the Advanced Class, it was taught that believers could NOT be possessed... and... that they COULD be possessed. Both positions are found in the AC syllabus. I have cited this contradiction in the past. Like so many other things, I think VPW simply did a cut and paste without understanding what he was copying. For that reason, I wouldn't give much credence to whatever you may have heard in TWI.
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newlife
Thanks for your posts. This has been a troubling subject to me in and out of TWI. I was repeatedly told how possessed I was in TWI....And you could probably guess how that affected me. And when Out, I questioned it all the time...am I?......am I not? Back and forth. At some time, I kind of let go of it some, but never left me. Then I started getting christian friends and they told me that a christian could not be possessed....Of course, knowing the teaching and only the teaching of TWI on this, I would discard what they said. But, as I had more christians in my life, I would hear this a lot....A christian can not be possessed because you have the spirit of God inside of you....no devil spirit can or wants to be where the spirit of God is. That made a heck of a lot sense to me and So that's why the topic. Even though, I don't know you all, I know you came from the same place as I have and have pursued truth. So, Thank-you for the truth you have shared. I can put it to rest.
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Steve Lortz
I'm glad you can put it to rest, newlife! Christians have nothing to fear from demons. Simply do your best to think and behave the way the Lord wants you to, and the demons can't gain any foothold.
The things Wierwille taught in the Advanced Class were baloney, and he was either knowingly lying or he had been hoodwinked himself.
Accusing people of being possessed was a method TWI leaders used to discredit anybody who disagreed with them, and it became the catch-all explanation for why anybody (except the leaders, of course) failed to comply with expected TWI behavior.
Enjoy the deliverance and freedom you have in Jesus Christ!
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
Mark 5:1-5 (NASB)
1 They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. 2 When He got out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him, 3 and he had his dwelling among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him anymore, even with a chain; 4 because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him and the shackles broken in pieces, and no one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Constantly, night and day, he was screaming among the tombs and in the mountains, and gashing himself with stones.
Does that sound anything like how you acted when they were accusing you?
If not, they were f'ing morons for trying that accusation.
Me, I probably would have laughed in their faces.
If you want to avoid alcoholism, avoid bars.
If you want to avoid advanced demon problems, avoid minor demon problems.
If you want to avoid minor demon problems, avoid sin as best you can,
mentally and physically.
BINGO.
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Twinky
Standard technique, newlife.
Just about everybody who left or was thrown out had their name blackened and was denounced as being "possessed." And if those who remained in TWI dared contact or associate with the ones who had departed, they too would become "possessed" and would "weaken the ministry."
It was manipulation, pure and simple.
One Rev's daughter killed herself. The Rev and his wife were banished as being possessed and not able to care for their family - it was their fault she had done this. And anyone who contacted the Rev to offer comfort would themselves become possessed.
Does that sound loving? Where are the words of comfort? Where is the kindness?
Another Rev had questions in the fog years. Some close friends, another Corps couple (maybe he was a Rev too) contacted them; this was found out by HQ; the second couple immediately became possessed and were ignominiously thrown out.
Does that sound like kindness? Like the open response that Jesus would give to those who had doubts?
TWI built up fear of the devil, fear of devil spirits ... within TWI you could learn far more about this than about the real and healing power of God and the loving ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Did you ever see Jesus acting in this way towards those who walked away from him? Did any of the apostles behave like this? On the contrary - for example, we see Simon the Sorcerer continuing to hang around with the apostles. And Simon had packed some "big ones."
You are not, and never were, possessed, newlife.
But maybe those who remained and still remain at TWI in face of all they must know, suspect or have observed - maybe they are at least influenced by d.s.
Yes, they tried this on me too, and I lived with guilt and fear for years. I was afraid of other Christians - other people! - and ashamed of myself before God.
Thank God, He was not ashamed of me. He found a way to drag me out of that.
I hate those lying evil manipulators for what they have done to ruin so many lives. The best thing you can do, newlife, is to live your life fully, without fear, and love God the best you know how. He loves you and will never abandon or forsake you.
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newlife
Thank-you for your posts.......whew....you have no idea how this has really helped me out. I've been carrying this question for many, many, years, always wondering if someone would come up and tell me, hey you're possessed. It is very evil for people to tell people this.....And I wish I would of brought this to GSC a long time ago, but at least I have now. Thank you for your posts, your compassion and help. What a freedom you have given to me......Thank-you
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Ham
What do I think..
most local way and ex-way probably think I'm "occupied" by Legion..
I can't get *most* of them to grace my door with their presence even with offers of Free Beer..
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waysider
They turn down free beer??
Well, look who's calling the kettle black.
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Grace Valerie Claire
NL, I don't know Jack about Devil Spirits. However, I think Mental Health Specialists can help people overcome some of their personal problems. Mine is wonderful; God bless her!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
WW, I didn't know this. Thanks for the information!
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