An organization whose foundation was built upon plagiarism, wrong doctrines, sexual abuse, manipulation, indoctrination, out right lies, love of money, love of power over others, ego trips, disregard and disrespect for it's followers...what else could be expected? What kind of fruit will grow from this kind of tree?
"Was the Wierwille ministry all a ruse?"...The short answer is yes it was...
If anyone cares to answer this.. I'm really curious as to what exactly they do there all day long. I mean, what is their "mission" I remember asking this ex-wayfer-Wierwille loyalist this once, back in the offshoot days, and she threw back her shoulders and huffed out her chest and proclaimed proudly "TO RESEARCH THE ACCURACY OF GOD'S WORD." I was like, ummm.....So what do they DO??? I don't think she really got what I was asking. A ministry is supposed to be doers of the Word, and not hearers. So really, can somebody tell me what they DO all day long? How do they get their money? And what the heck do they do with it?
I guess the same can be said of many offshoots, and even many mainstream churches...to be fair.
If anyone cares to answer this.. I'm really curious as to what exactly they do there all day long. I mean, what is their "mission" I remember asking this ex-wayfer-Wierwille loyalist this once, back in the offshoot days, and she threw back her shoulders and huffed out her chest and proclaimed proudly "TO RESEARCH THE ACCURACY OF GOD'S WORD." I was like, ummm.....So what do they DO??? I don't think she really got what I was asking. A ministry is supposed to be doers of the Word, and not hearers. So really, can somebody tell me what they DO all day long? How do they get their money? And what the heck do they do with it?
I guess the same can be said of many offshoots, and even many mainstream churches...to be fair.
to research the accuract of God's Word? That's weird because so far they haven't come up with anything new.
Skyrider: Thanks for answering. Wow, I really am beginning to understand. Good little Pharisees, cleaning the outside and the inside is garbage. Wow.
"Oh, sure......they say their mission is "spiritual," but its a two-bit, low-traffic, indoctrination zone
that is fueled by vaunted egos of self-importance that tens of millions have never even heard of"
That I agree with 1000%! My goodness! They (and I mean the offshoots as well) really think they are the center of the universe in their little world, and the truth is they are a very small part of a very BIG Christian world out there.
You know, the more I think about them, the more angry they make me. All their speaking in tongues and prophecy, and classes and they really don't do a damned thing. These other ministries do SOMETHING. Helping old people, visiting people in prison, writing letters, whatever call God puts on your heart, even animals! But these pompous a$$es think they are so elite and spiritual. What a bunch of freaking goats.
I know, I guess I could do better myself, but it still makes me mad. Especially since I was ONE OF THEM at one time. :asdf:/>
Well.......for starters, most all of their "workload" is in-house sustainability. Those who assume the post
as micro-managers set in motion a plethora of busywork. Not accomplishments, mind you.....but keeping all
the drones buzzing around with busywork.
The pontificators need script writers, editors, secretaries, press releases, assistants, bodyguards, valets, etc.
Mis-directors need area and department coordinators and conference meetings to stroke their importance.
Isolation and indoctrination is furthered by an on-grounds cafeteria/meal and all the that entails.
Brass rails need polishing, carpets need vacuumed, floors need cleaned and buffed, toilets need scrubbed.
Probably 80-85% of twi work is self-inflicted to present a pristine picture of attention to detail....
.....
Oh, sure......they say their mission is "spiritual," but its a two-bit, low-traffic, indoctrination zone
that is fueled by vaunted egos of self-importance that tens of millions have never even heard of.
Sky, you forgot: chopping wood, mowing lawns, raking gravel, vacuuming the car park (yes really), killing chickens.
We were all so busy that there was little time to think about integrating with other Christians or involving in other Christians' activities - we were "moving the Word" doncha know!
There was rarely even free time just to think quietly.
But there were "departmental secretaries" who seemed to have little to do except "being available" if someone chose to drop by their department. These departmental secretaries were graduated Corps who - far from being out "moving the Word" as their reasonable expectations might have been - were having a very hard time moving their eyelids to the Open position. What a terrible waste.
Well there must be people out in the real world who have real jobs who are enabling these bubble heads. I just can't imagine WHY? The offshoots have a small cluster of people who support their given mog, so I'm figuring the Wayfers in the cornfield must be the same way. There must be a small cluster of people who are suckered into supporting all this.
Yeah, I used to think ABS was to "move God's Word" when all it did was support their communal lifestyle at HQ. WE on the "field" were "moving the Word" but with no financial support. God forbid anyone ever expect HQ to help US.
Okay, so they are using the people in the field who are working and witnessing. And I like the way you put "to support their communal lifestyle." I'm getting a better understanding of the Wayfers Incorporated. One wonders if they will all just die off or if the younger generation will carry on. Anyone notice how the hardcore offshoots try to inbreed their kids? Heaven forbid one of their kids should marry a Presbyterian or worse, a Catholic! lol. ;) But, that's another thread I suppose....
Actually, it's not really a "failed ministry" - it might fail at ministry but it's not really failed at itself - as witnessed by the number of offshoots it has spawned, which all use more or less the same model. Not least, Young Vic's "training" program.
My personal opinion, for what it's worth is that it will almost completely die off once the "baby boomer" generation dies off and then will completely die off once their children's generation is gone. I'm talking about the offshoots too. I don't pay a whole lot of attention but from what I can see, not much going on with the youth. Frankly, the youths don't seem to be much into anything worship-wise with this post-modernism thinking descending upon us all. Just an opinion though.
I don't know Broken Arrow. People come and go in other churches too I'm sure. But the wayfers are such a cliquish little group, it's not like they fit in well with the mainstream communities. I mean, in their normal everyday jobs they might, but if they invited somebody over for "fellowship" most people who have never been exposed to them feel very uncomfortable. Especially when the mog starts calling people by name for the manifestations. I've noticed that when the kids who grow up there get married, it's quite likely another child of a wayfer-offshooter.
In fact one thing ( out of a zillion) that sticks out in my mind was when the mog of Naperville told somebody who told me, (back in the 90s) that he was concerned with the "kids" in the group, cause when they grew up and went to college or whatever, would they come back to naperville? I was like, huh? That's as far as this group's vision extends? The flat earth wayfer society of naperville? The world ends at that point? sheesh.
I don't know Broken Arrow. People come and go in other churches too I'm sure. But the wayfers are such a cliquish little group, it's not like they fit in well with the mainstream communities.
I guess I'm just thinking that the appeal of TWI-ness was mainly to the boomers and young folks are looking for different stuff these days. I could be wrong. There have always been offshoots and cults around, some of them no longer exist. So I suppose that even if TWI and its offshoots cease there'll always be something around to abuse and enslave people.
I hear you, Broken Arrow. And you are right about what you said, there will always be something. I also notice that the few times I go to church, they are always trying to make it "youth" friendly, modern, whatever, and personally, it really bugs me. I DESPISE the generic, bland pop music they play in churches, for one thing. Or the LOUD ROCK & ROLL they play. I went to a Joyce Meyer thingie in 2007 with Hillsong there, and I almost had to leave because they almost blasted my freaking eardrums off. It was as loud as an old Billy Idol concert. I kid you not.
I miss the old hymns and gospels. And IMO, (and I'll probably pi$ some people off saying this) For the most part, Christian music sucks. Again, in my opinion. I love that cartoon where Hank Hill says, "Can't you see you're not making Christianity better? You're just making rock and roll worse! "
Coming back to apologize for derailing the thread. :blush:/>
I hear you, Broken Arrow. And you are right about what you said, there will always be something. I also notice that the few times I go to church, they are always trying to make it "youth" friendly, modern, whatever, and personally, it really bugs me. I DESPISE the generic, bland pop music they play in churches, for one thing. Or the LOUD ROCK & ROLL they play. I went to a Joyce Meyer thingie in 2007 with Hillsong there, and I almost had to leave because they almost blasted my freaking eardrums off. It was as loud as an old Billy Idol concert. I kid you not.
I miss the old hymns and gospels. And IMO, (and I'll probably pi$ some people off saying this) For the most part, Christian music sucks. Again, in my opinion. I love that cartoon where Hank Hill says, "Can't you see you're not making Christianity better? You're just making rock and roll worse! "
Coming back to apologize for derailing the thread. :blush:/>/>
Love that quote Rottie! There's some good contemporary Christian music out there. There's some crap too, but there's some good stuff. What really chaps me off, though is when they take an old hymn like, "How Great Thou Art", and they add a rock beat to it. Ooooh! If you want to write and record new music fine, but the old hymns are just fine the way they are.
OH MY GOSH Broken Arrow! I know EXACTLY what you mean, lol. And I agree there is some good contemporary, it's not all crap. But I remember a church I went to when they were finally singing an old Hymm, then they turned it into some screaming rock song that NOBODY could sing along too! LOL! And I love that quote too. Obviously a lot of us "old" timers (who are not that old!) feel that way!
Yeah, I used to think ABS was to "move God's Word" when all it did was support their communal lifestyle at HQ. WE on the "field" were "moving the Word" but with no financial support. God forbid anyone ever expect HQ to help US.
Exactly!
Who needs another teaching tape from hq....same as last week's teaching tape?
Yeah...what IF the local area in Dallas, TX kept their abundant sharing for outreach and all? Imagine the possibilities. Heck, maybe even go to the lake......have a day of fun, a barbeque, rent two jet-skis, a paddle-boat and enjoy the day. Perhaps....just perhaps, others might see the fun and want to join you?
But NO....hq demands ALL the abs, because they don't trust YOU with it. See, they know how to HOARD IT AWAY AND KEEP IT FOR THEIR SAFETY NET AND SECURITY IN CASE THE ECONOMY REALLY TURNS SOUTH.
The people on the field are being FLEECED.....all the while, those at hq kick back on Saturday. Yet, field people are supposed to run classes, outreach events or whatever on THEIR weekends. The double standard is appalling if one is simply paying attention.....but then, that would be "thinking evil" now wouldn't it? ppfffffftttt
Gee, when you no longer work and draw a salary/paycheck.....are you supposed to give a portion
Lack of membership diversity? :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/>
What the heck does that mean?
Not enough red, black, yellow or candy-striped one-legged blind homosexuals?
More like, not enough people of working age to bring in megabucks.
.. Not enough financial diversity.
It's certain that a twig comprising only people of similar or even just plain "working" age, who were all working and thus "able" to ABS, wouldn't be disbanded because there were no retirees or pre-schoolers.
Yeah...what IF the local area ... kept their abundant sharing for outreach and all? Imagine the possibilities. Heck, maybe even go to the lake......have a day of fun, a barbeque, rent two jet-skis, a paddle-boat and enjoy the day. Perhaps....just perhaps, others might see the fun and want to join you?
When I was out WoW the area coordinator did send us some money to go to the beach (we were in a seaside town) and have some fun. We had a barbecue and invited our twigs and other people. The weather was surprisingly cold and windy for the time of year, but we had a good time.
Later, however, he told me it wasn't ABS that he sent - it was a money gift from his own pocket.
Other times, we had barbecues and social events - but we paid for them ourselves. And we still sent all our ABS to him to do whatever was appropriate. Send to HQ presumably. I never asked.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Well said skyrider...
An organization whose foundation was built upon plagiarism, wrong doctrines, sexual abuse, manipulation, indoctrination, out right lies, love of money, love of power over others, ego trips, disregard and disrespect for it's followers...what else could be expected? What kind of fruit will grow from this kind of tree?
"Was the Wierwille ministry all a ruse?"...The short answer is yes it was...
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krys
I wouldn't be anticipating any fruit from this organization. There's not enough "oomph" left.
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excathedra
ministry what ministry?
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waysider
Exactly!
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GarthP2000
"It's dead, Jim!"
Cheers,
Garth P.
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RottieGrrrl
If anyone cares to answer this..
I'm really curious as to what exactly they do there all day long. I mean, what is their "mission" I remember asking this ex-wayfer-Wierwille loyalist this once, back in the offshoot days, and she threw back her shoulders and huffed out her chest and proclaimed proudly "TO RESEARCH THE ACCURACY OF GOD'S WORD." I was like, ummm.....So what do they DO??? I don't think she really got what I was asking. A ministry is supposed to be doers of the Word, and not hearers. So really, can somebody tell me what they DO all day long? How do they get their money? And what the heck do they do with it?
I guess the same can be said of many offshoots, and even many mainstream churches...to be fair.
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skyrider
Well.......for starters, most all of their "workload" is in-house sustainability. Those who assume the post
as micro-managers set in motion a plethora of busywork. Not accomplishments, mind you.....but keeping all
the drones buzzing around with busywork.
The pontificators need script writers, editors, secretaries, press releases, assistants, bodyguards, valets, etc.
Mis-directors need area and department coordinators and conference meetings to stroke their importance.
Isolation and indoctrination is furthered by an on-grounds cafeteria/meal and all the that entails.
Brass rails need polishing, carpets need vacuumed, floors need cleaned and buffed, toilets need scrubbed.
Probably 80-85% of twi work is self-inflicted to present a pristine picture of attention to detail....
.....
Oh, sure......they say their mission is "spiritual," but its a two-bit, low-traffic, indoctrination zone
that is fueled by vaunted egos of self-importance that tens of millions have never even heard of.
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outandabout
to research the accuract of God's Word? That's weird because so far they haven't come up with anything new.
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RottieGrrrl
Skyrider: Thanks for answering. Wow, I really am beginning to understand. Good little Pharisees, cleaning the outside and the inside is garbage. Wow.
"Oh, sure......they say their mission is "spiritual," but its a two-bit, low-traffic, indoctrination zone
that is fueled by vaunted egos of self-importance that tens of millions have never even heard of"
That I agree with 1000%! My goodness! They (and I mean the offshoots as well) really think they are the center of the universe in their little world, and the truth is they are a very small part of a very BIG Christian world out there.
You know, the more I think about them, the more angry they make me. All their speaking in tongues and prophecy, and classes and they really don't do a damned thing. These other ministries do SOMETHING. Helping old people, visiting people in prison, writing letters, whatever call God puts on your heart, even animals! But these pompous a$$es think they are so elite and spiritual. What a bunch of freaking goats.
I know, I guess I could do better myself, but it still makes me mad. Especially since I was ONE OF THEM at one time. :asdf:/>
outandabout: I hear you, lol.
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Twinky
Sky, you forgot: chopping wood, mowing lawns, raking gravel, vacuuming the car park (yes really), killing chickens.
We were all so busy that there was little time to think about integrating with other Christians or involving in other Christians' activities - we were "moving the Word" doncha know!
There was rarely even free time just to think quietly.
But there were "departmental secretaries" who seemed to have little to do except "being available" if someone chose to drop by their department. These departmental secretaries were graduated Corps who - far from being out "moving the Word" as their reasonable expectations might have been - were having a very hard time moving their eyelids to the Open position. What a terrible waste.
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RottieGrrrl
Well there must be people out in the real world who have real jobs who are enabling these bubble heads. I just can't imagine WHY? The offshoots have a small cluster of people who support their given mog, so I'm figuring the Wayfers in the cornfield must be the same way. There must be a small cluster of people who are suckered into supporting all this.
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outandabout
Yeah, I used to think ABS was to "move God's Word" when all it did was support their communal lifestyle at HQ. WE on the "field" were "moving the Word" but with no financial support. God forbid anyone ever expect HQ to help US.
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RottieGrrrl
Okay, so they are using the people in the field who are working and witnessing. And I like the way you put "to support their communal lifestyle." I'm getting a better understanding of the Wayfers Incorporated. One wonders if they will all just die off or if the younger generation will carry on. Anyone notice how the hardcore offshoots try to inbreed their kids? Heaven forbid one of their kids should marry a Presbyterian or worse, a Catholic! lol. ;) But, that's another thread I suppose....
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Twinky
Actually, it's not really a "failed ministry" - it might fail at ministry but it's not really failed at itself - as witnessed by the number of offshoots it has spawned, which all use more or less the same model. Not least, Young Vic's "training" program.
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Broken Arrow
My personal opinion, for what it's worth is that it will almost completely die off once the "baby boomer" generation dies off and then will completely die off once their children's generation is gone. I'm talking about the offshoots too. I don't pay a whole lot of attention but from what I can see, not much going on with the youth. Frankly, the youths don't seem to be much into anything worship-wise with this post-modernism thinking descending upon us all. Just an opinion though.
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RottieGrrrl
I don't know Broken Arrow. People come and go in other churches too I'm sure. But the wayfers are such a cliquish little group, it's not like they fit in well with the mainstream communities. I mean, in their normal everyday jobs they might, but if they invited somebody over for "fellowship" most people who have never been exposed to them feel very uncomfortable. Especially when the mog starts calling people by name for the manifestations. I've noticed that when the kids who grow up there get married, it's quite likely another child of a wayfer-offshooter.
In fact one thing ( out of a zillion) that sticks out in my mind was when the mog of Naperville told somebody who told me, (back in the 90s) that he was concerned with the "kids" in the group, cause when they grew up and went to college or whatever, would they come back to naperville? I was like, huh? That's as far as this group's vision extends? The flat earth wayfer society of naperville? The world ends at that point? sheesh.
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waysider
I don't think they were worried about them leaving Naperville. They were worried about them leaving Wayferville.
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Broken Arrow
I guess I'm just thinking that the appeal of TWI-ness was mainly to the boomers and young folks are looking for different stuff these days. I could be wrong. There have always been offshoots and cults around, some of them no longer exist. So I suppose that even if TWI and its offshoots cease there'll always be something around to abuse and enslave people.
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RottieGrrrl
waysider: LOL! How right you are...
I hear you, Broken Arrow. And you are right about what you said, there will always be something. I also notice that the few times I go to church, they are always trying to make it "youth" friendly, modern, whatever, and personally, it really bugs me. I DESPISE the generic, bland pop music they play in churches, for one thing. Or the LOUD ROCK & ROLL they play. I went to a Joyce Meyer thingie in 2007 with Hillsong there, and I almost had to leave because they almost blasted my freaking eardrums off. It was as loud as an old Billy Idol concert. I kid you not.
I miss the old hymns and gospels. And IMO, (and I'll probably pi$ some people off saying this) For the most part, Christian music sucks. Again, in my opinion. I love that cartoon where Hank Hill says, "Can't you see you're not making Christianity better? You're just making rock and roll worse! "
Coming back to apologize for derailing the thread. :blush:/>
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Broken Arrow
Love that quote Rottie! There's some good contemporary Christian music out there. There's some crap too, but there's some good stuff. What really chaps me off, though is when they take an old hymn like, "How Great Thou Art", and they add a rock beat to it. Ooooh! If you want to write and record new music fine, but the old hymns are just fine the way they are.
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RottieGrrrl
OH MY GOSH Broken Arrow! I know EXACTLY what you mean, lol. And I agree there is some good contemporary, it's not all crap. But I remember a church I went to when they were finally singing an old Hymm, then they turned it into some screaming rock song that NOBODY could sing along too! LOL! And I love that quote too. Obviously a lot of us "old" timers (who are not that old!) feel that way!
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skyrider
Exactly!
Who needs another teaching tape from hq....same as last week's teaching tape?
Yeah...what IF the local area in Dallas, TX kept their abundant sharing for outreach and all? Imagine the possibilities. Heck, maybe even go to the lake......have a day of fun, a barbeque, rent two jet-skis, a paddle-boat and enjoy the day. Perhaps....just perhaps, others might see the fun and want to join you?
But NO....hq demands ALL the abs, because they don't trust YOU with it. See, they know how to HOARD IT AWAY AND KEEP IT FOR THEIR SAFETY NET AND SECURITY IN CASE THE ECONOMY REALLY TURNS SOUTH.
The people on the field are being FLEECED.....all the while, those at hq kick back on Saturday. Yet, field people are supposed to run classes, outreach events or whatever on THEIR weekends. The double standard is appalling if one is simply paying attention.....but then, that would be "thinking evil" now wouldn't it? ppfffffftttt
Gee, when you no longer work and draw a salary/paycheck.....are you supposed to give a portion
of your social security check, too?
.
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waysider
Short answer: Yes
Source: Personal experience of a twig (retired people) that was disbanded for failure to properly ABS, despite receiving "Love Offerings", etc.
Disclaimer: Incident happened over 30 years ago.
Additional disclaimer: Reason (bogus) given by HQ was lack of membership diversity.
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Twinky
Lack of membership diversity? :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/> :biglaugh:/>
What the heck does that mean?
Not enough red, black, yellow or candy-striped one-legged blind homosexuals?
More like, not enough people of working age to bring in megabucks.
.. Not enough financial diversity.
It's certain that a twig comprising only people of similar or even just plain "working" age, who were all working and thus "able" to ABS, wouldn't be disbanded because there were no retirees or pre-schoolers.
When I was out WoW the area coordinator did send us some money to go to the beach (we were in a seaside town) and have some fun. We had a barbecue and invited our twigs and other people. The weather was surprisingly cold and windy for the time of year, but we had a good time.
Later, however, he told me it wasn't ABS that he sent - it was a money gift from his own pocket.
Other times, we had barbecues and social events - but we paid for them ourselves. And we still sent all our ABS to him to do whatever was appropriate. Send to HQ presumably. I never asked.
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