I guess it just depends on how one reads 1 Cor. 3:10-15. I always looked at it as getting "Nomex long johns" (I used to use asbestos, but that's not healthy...) upon being born again. What good one does (as determined by God, not by man) is also "non-flammable." When God blasts us with His "divine blowtorch," all of the ungodly things will be burned away, but the good things, AND WE, will still be there. Certainly, there will be those who are cast into the lake of fire, but those won't be Christians. What will be left of VP (or me, or you) for all eternity will be pure. I certainly understand excathedra's desire to see VP punished. But I can't see that as an eternal condition. That takes heaven and turns it into purgatory.
I guess it just depends on how one reads 1 Cor. 3:10-15.
No, it depends on how one reads I Cor 3:10-15 AND the verses I cited.
If the Bible is not consistent, it doesn't really matter what we believe,
and we're largely wasting our time.
For those of us who believe the Bible is consistent and reading it is profitable
for learning things,
then ALL of it has to jibe. If what we read in one section makes perfect sense
with our beliefs, but then we have to ignore another section because we can't make
heads nor tails of it but it MIGHT contradict what we thought about what we read in
the first section, might the problem be our beliefs are either incomplete or incorrect?
If there is no real punishment for evil deeds done to the brethren, then some people will
be very disappointed. If there are real punitive measures sentenced for the very guilty,
then some other people will be very disappointed. But our disappointment in something
does not determine whether it is true or not, popularity of a belief does not determine
whether it is true or not. That's one reason we have to read the whole thing and try to
understand it. Jesus promised something in the Gospels, and the last book speaks of the
future and seems to show how the promise will be carried out.
If you disagree fundamentally-and say it CAN'T be carried out that way- then I ask you,
what did Jesus mean, and what does the account in the last book mean?
I always looked at it as getting "Nomex long johns" (I used to use asbestos, but that's not healthy...) upon being born again. What good one does (as determined by God, not by man) is also "non-flammable." When God blasts us with His "divine blowtorch," all of the ungodly things will be burned away, but the good things, AND WE, will still be there. Certainly, there will be those who are cast into the lake of fire, but those won't be Christians. What will be left of VP (or me, or you) for all eternity will be pure. I certainly understand excathedra's desire to see VP punished. But I can't see that as an eternal condition. That takes heaven and turns it into purgatory.
George
Go through the events of the End Times. Subtract everyone who's destroyed/obliterated before Revelation 21 begins.
Then go over the accounts of who is outside the Holy City. At first glance, it looks like the same kinds
of people who were already destroyed...which means it's time for more than a first glance.
If all Christians survive obliteration, but there is a just distinction between
"did his best to live piously and help others and love them as God does" and
"became a Christian, then raped the brethren and stole their lives, souls and money",
then it seems there will be a punishment short of obliteration.
If so, then it makes perfect sense that they'd be excluded from the holy city and FINALLY
sorry for what they did.
If there IS no punishment, then we have lots of people alluded to in the gospels, and mentioned
outright in Revelation, and we have no information whatsoever as to who they COULD be.
(Can't be bad non-Christians, can't be bad Christians.)
Whether or not we're displeased about them facing punishment is a distant consideration compared
to "Well, if that's not vpw and his peers, who CAN it be?"
(Edit, another thing, where in the Bible does it say we'll be in HEAVEN? We shall be
"ever with the Lord." The Lord shall be in New Jerusalem on the new Earth-
Revelation 21 and 22 are very clear about that. Why would we then be separated
eternally from him by being in the new Heaven if he is on the new Earth?
What actual verses say this- or is this a supposition?)
We're going far afield off this topic, and perhaps we should go to pm's on this.
As to the original post in this thread. I would say we are not alone in mistreatment. It is not beyond my imagination that the "elders" in this supposed college would find it far easier to sweep this kind of conduct under some convenient rug instead of honestly dealing with the issues..
I had a *minister* in an offshoot who could not publicly acknowledge exactly what the "sin" was in one particular circumstance. The consequences of his negligence will never be fully known in this lifetime..
Maybe it's me, but the people who were really anal about stupid stuff in twi seemed to stick out like a sore thumb. I just don't remember too many people who would jump all over you for, say, going to a relative's funeral rather than a limb meeting. I knew a girl who once had a dilemma. Go to a limb meeting, go to a catholic event with her parents, OR...what she ended up doing was...going to a Rocky Horror picture show weekend with THOSE people. Problem solved.
Maybe it's me, but the people who were really anal about stupid stuff in twi seemed to stick out like a sore thumb. I just don't remember too many people who would jump all over you for, say, going to a relative's funeral rather than a limb meeting. I knew a girl who once had a dilemma. Go to a limb meeting, go to a catholic event with her parents, OR...what she ended up doing was...going to a Rocky Horror picture show weekend with THOSE people. Problem solved.
You may not have experienced it, John, but I assure you it happened frequently,especially in the disciplined programs, such as Way Corps and FellowLaborers.
Yeah, I remember in 1989 someone who was on staff at HQ was kicked out for having the wrong response to the loyalty letter. She said she knew then that LCM was just trying to make the whole ministry like the corps. It took 5 more years before it was obvious, but that's what he did, and it didn't work too good.
No, it depends on how one reads I Cor 3:10-15 AND the verses I cited.
If the Bible is not consistent, it doesn't really matter what we believe,
and we're largely wasting our time.
For those of us who believe the Bible is consistent and reading it is profitable
for learning things,
then ALL of it has to jibe. If what we read in one section makes perfect sense
with our beliefs, but then we have to ignore another section because we can't make
heads nor tails of it but it MIGHT contradict what we thought about what we read in
the first section, might the problem be our beliefs are either incomplete or incorrect?
If there is no real punishment for evil deeds done to the brethren, then some people will
be very disappointed. If there are real punitive measures sentenced for the very guilty,
then some other people will be very disappointed. But our disappointment in something
does not determine whether it is true or not, popularity of a belief does not determine
whether it is true or not. That's one reason we have to read the whole thing and try to
understand it. Jesus promised something in the Gospels, and the last book speaks of the
future and seems to show how the promise will be carried out.
If you disagree fundamentally-and say it CAN'T be carried out that way- then I ask you,
what did Jesus mean, and what does the account in the last book mean?
Go through the events of the End Times. Subtract everyone who's destroyed/obliterated before Revelation 21 begins.
Then go over the accounts of who is outside the Holy City. At first glance, it looks like the same kinds
of people who were already destroyed...which means it's time for more than a first glance.
If all Christians survive obliteration, but there is a just distinction between
"did his best to live piously and help others and love them as God does" and
"became a Christian, then raped the brethren and stole their lives, souls and money",
then it seems there will be a punishment short of obliteration.
If so, then it makes perfect sense that they'd be excluded from the holy city and FINALLY
sorry for what they did.
If there IS no punishment, then we have lots of people alluded to in the gospels, and mentioned
outright in Revelation, and we have no information whatsoever as to who they COULD be.
(Can't be bad non-Christians, can't be bad Christians.)
Whether or not we're displeased about them facing punishment is a distant consideration compared
to "Well, if that's not vpw and his peers, who CAN it be?"
(Edit, another thing, where in the Bible does it say we'll be in HEAVEN? We shall be
"ever with the Lord." The Lord shall be in New Jerusalem on the new Earth-
Revelation 21 and 22 are very clear about that. Why would we then be separated
eternally from him by being in the new Heaven if he is on the new Earth?
What actual verses say this- or is this a supposition?)
We're going far afield off this topic, and perhaps we should go to pm's on this.
Interesting tho WW...The new heaven and earth is said to have no more sun...so presumably there will be no more darkness either ? I also think at the gathering together a lot of things and questions probably will no longer matter ?!
Interesting tho WW...The new heaven and earth is said to have no more sun...so presumably there will be no more darkness either ? I also think at the gathering together a lot of things and questions probably will no longer matter ?!
Revelation 21:23-27 (KJV)
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
===================================
Lots of things "are said", but I don't see WRITTEN that there is no sun.
I see it written that the Holy City does not NEED the sun.
That means the sun is a non-issue, but only in the Holy City.
As for anything outside it, that's another story.
They'd have the sun and moon, but not The Lamb, and may feel
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GeorgeStGeorge
I guess it just depends on how one reads 1 Cor. 3:10-15. I always looked at it as getting "Nomex long johns" (I used to use asbestos, but that's not healthy...) upon being born again. What good one does (as determined by God, not by man) is also "non-flammable." When God blasts us with His "divine blowtorch," all of the ungodly things will be burned away, but the good things, AND WE, will still be there. Certainly, there will be those who are cast into the lake of fire, but those won't be Christians. What will be left of VP (or me, or you) for all eternity will be pure. I certainly understand excathedra's desire to see VP punished. But I can't see that as an eternal condition. That takes heaven and turns it into purgatory.
George
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WordWolf
No, it depends on how one reads I Cor 3:10-15 AND the verses I cited.
If the Bible is not consistent, it doesn't really matter what we believe,
and we're largely wasting our time.
For those of us who believe the Bible is consistent and reading it is profitable
for learning things,
then ALL of it has to jibe. If what we read in one section makes perfect sense
with our beliefs, but then we have to ignore another section because we can't make
heads nor tails of it but it MIGHT contradict what we thought about what we read in
the first section, might the problem be our beliefs are either incomplete or incorrect?
If there is no real punishment for evil deeds done to the brethren, then some people will
be very disappointed. If there are real punitive measures sentenced for the very guilty,
then some other people will be very disappointed. But our disappointment in something
does not determine whether it is true or not, popularity of a belief does not determine
whether it is true or not. That's one reason we have to read the whole thing and try to
understand it. Jesus promised something in the Gospels, and the last book speaks of the
future and seems to show how the promise will be carried out.
If you disagree fundamentally-and say it CAN'T be carried out that way- then I ask you,
what did Jesus mean, and what does the account in the last book mean?
Go through the events of the End Times. Subtract everyone who's destroyed/obliterated before Revelation 21 begins.
Then go over the accounts of who is outside the Holy City. At first glance, it looks like the same kinds
of people who were already destroyed...which means it's time for more than a first glance.
If all Christians survive obliteration, but there is a just distinction between
"did his best to live piously and help others and love them as God does" and
"became a Christian, then raped the brethren and stole their lives, souls and money",
then it seems there will be a punishment short of obliteration.
If so, then it makes perfect sense that they'd be excluded from the holy city and FINALLY
sorry for what they did.
If there IS no punishment, then we have lots of people alluded to in the gospels, and mentioned
outright in Revelation, and we have no information whatsoever as to who they COULD be.
(Can't be bad non-Christians, can't be bad Christians.)
Whether or not we're displeased about them facing punishment is a distant consideration compared
to "Well, if that's not vpw and his peers, who CAN it be?"
(Edit, another thing, where in the Bible does it say we'll be in HEAVEN? We shall be
"ever with the Lord." The Lord shall be in New Jerusalem on the new Earth-
Revelation 21 and 22 are very clear about that. Why would we then be separated
eternally from him by being in the new Heaven if he is on the new Earth?
What actual verses say this- or is this a supposition?)
We're going far afield off this topic, and perhaps we should go to pm's on this.
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excathedra
i really didn't say i want to see him punished. i think i said i would like to tell him how i feel
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GeorgeStGeorge
I'm guessing (and if I'm wrong, please tell me) that the reason you'd like to tell him how you feel is that you would like to hear him apologize.
Sadly, it didn't happen in this life. I believe it won't be relevant in the next. If it is, I sincerely hope you get your wish.
George
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johniam
quote:
We're going far afield off this topic, and perhaps we should go to pm's on this.
Sounds like the final word to me.
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Ham
Sometimes, off topic proves to be relevant to the thread at hand..
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Ham
As to the original post in this thread. I would say we are not alone in mistreatment. It is not beyond my imagination that the "elders" in this supposed college would find it far easier to sweep this kind of conduct under some convenient rug instead of honestly dealing with the issues..
I had a *minister* in an offshoot who could not publicly acknowledge exactly what the "sin" was in one particular circumstance. The consequences of his negligence will never be fully known in this lifetime..
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johniam
Maybe it's me, but the people who were really anal about stupid stuff in twi seemed to stick out like a sore thumb. I just don't remember too many people who would jump all over you for, say, going to a relative's funeral rather than a limb meeting. I knew a girl who once had a dilemma. Go to a limb meeting, go to a catholic event with her parents, OR...what she ended up doing was...going to a Rocky Horror picture show weekend with THOSE people. Problem solved.
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waysider
You may not have experienced it, John, but I assure you it happened frequently,especially in the disciplined programs, such as Way Corps and FellowLaborers.
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johniam
Yeah, I remember in 1989 someone who was on staff at HQ was kicked out for having the wrong response to the loyalty letter. She said she knew then that LCM was just trying to make the whole ministry like the corps. It took 5 more years before it was obvious, but that's what he did, and it didn't work too good.
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Allan
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WordWolf
Revelation 21:23-27 (KJV)
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
===================================
Lots of things "are said", but I don't see WRITTEN that there is no sun.
I see it written that the Holy City does not NEED the sun.
That means the sun is a non-issue, but only in the Holy City.
As for anything outside it, that's another story.
They'd have the sun and moon, but not The Lamb, and may feel
that's not enough...
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excathedra
um, i would like to tell him how i feel just to tell him how i feel
i never got to tell him how i really feel in this life
i guess it won't be relevant; i just want to feel relevant
but in this new life maybe i won't feel this way at all. so moot?
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GeorgeStGeorge
Moot is maybe a better word than irrelevant.
George
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WordWolf
If I have the opportunity,
I'd like to put him in a "full nelson"
so she has his undivided attention
while she tells him.
I probably WON'T have the opportunity.
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GeorgeStGeorge
You're not alone in that desire.
George
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