Yes Twinky, some very good points that you are making here. You get an "A" in understanding and communication. Below is an article that I wrote on this subject originally in 1988 and then revised in 2002. As you have stated very well, being service oriented for church leadership is the primary emphasis for true Christ like doctrine and application.
Neither Paul, Peter, Timothy, Titus, nor any of the other laborers are ever called lords in the New Testament. They were never even given the title reverend, thus separating them from other believers. Jesus Christ taught his disciples in Matthew 23:8-10 that they were not to be called Rabbi or Master for there is but one Master and we are all brothers. He also said not to call anyone on earth 'Father', for you have but one Father and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'Teacher', for you have one Teacher, the Christ. Ephesians 4:11 tells us that some are teachers in the body of Christ, but it is Christ who gives this gift. He is the only all knowing and infallible Teacher. The rest of us know only in part (see 1 Corinthians. 13:12).
"Reverend" simply means "respected" or "revered" - which all Christians should be - that's what got the attention of the non-believers when the early Christian church was becoming established. Those early believers (saints!) were respected for the way they treated other people.
For anyone who's interested, here's a Wikipedia article about the honorific "Reverend" and its various permutations: The Reverend
I have difficulty with the passage in Acts that states that the early apostles gave themselves to prayer, etc, and declined to serve at tables. Sounds a bit like they were "too good" to do menial tasks like that - although, to be fair, I have heard jolly good explanations about that passage - and it also says the congregation was pleased at the outcome.
I can certainly see that some ordained clergymen and -women would have difficulty in undertaking menial roles.
I also know a fair few who actually do undertake such roles, and do so with enthusiasm and joy at serving. God bless them richly.
Excellent insight Twinky. Innerstin' reading and thought. I think Jesus made it abundantly clear what He expects His followers to do.
I don't think the current religious systems can be fixed. I say that with the caveat that effort towards doing that could certainly improve them but on a large scale effort it's just too much baggage to go through in my opinion.
The only purpose i see for an "organization" is to facilitate the members of the "body of Christ" to work with each other and towards their collective common goals.
Something like the Way Nash-anon never got it, we never took it to the next level of growth and VPW never promoted a true Acts-like functionality in the Way. Good bad or indifferent, the Way just didn't do that, I mean it as less a criticism and more a statement of fact. Running a business to hold classes and seminars isn't the same as caring for the weak and needy in the church and making sure everyone is being taken care of.
Even the example in Acts of the disciples trying to split up the work assumes that there's a desire to do some useful work to help others.
The image I get of the early guys and gals is that they were doing exactly that, doing whatever needed to be done for the growing following. They were, after all the followers of Christ who had known Him, lived with Him, knew Him face to face. If anyone was going to carry the message of service-first-know-us-by-our-love it would have had to be them. Being human I supppose they did the best they could as long as they could.
Today, for me, there's been too much water under the bridge. It's not just the Roman Catholic church although they're about as bloated as you can get. The church/pastor model works fine if it's done using a community/cooperative model...at whatever level the members wish to participate use a share and share alike approach.
Here is part of a commentary that I have written and posted on the Internet that looks entirely in harmony and in agreement with Twinkies posts here.
Another very important aspect of unity in the body of Christ is spoken plainly in 1 Corinthians 12:21-24.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
New International Version
This is so contrary to the way worldly political institutions are run whether they be governmental or religious. In fact, with some religious groups, the leaders are so glorified that it chokes the spiritual life out of the common believer. This glorification may be gratifying to the flesh of the leaders, but in reality leaders should be esteemed only for their work and service to the church. Additionally, the members of the body which seem to be ordinary and unspectacular are very necessary. Because the functions and jobs that these faithful believers fulfill are not normally esteemed, we should compensate for this lack and esteem them highly. The reason that we do this is covered in the next verses 25 and 26.
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
New International Version
Each member should have the same concern for one another. When one member suffers, every member suffers with it. When another member is honored, every member should rejoice with it. When this occurs there is no jealousy or other carnal reason for division in the body of Christ. The body of Christ will be a truly unified one with each member having a purpose and a part.
Presbuteros means basically an older person. Older, therefore (one hopes) wiser.
Such people were often accorded seats on councils - because of their perceived wisdom. Not because of any ranking system (their degree in theology, ability to play the lute, collect more money, etc).
As to episkopos, the same site gives this explanation:
1985epÃskopos (a masculine noun, derived from 1909/epÃ, "on/fitting contact," which intensifies 4649/skopós, "look intently," like at an end-marker concluding a race) – properly, an overseer; a man called by God to literally "keep an eye on" His flock (the Church, the body of Christ), i.e. to provide personalized (first hand) care and protection (note the epi, "on").
"Though in some contexts 1985 (epÃskopos) has been regarded traditionally as a position of authority, in reality the focus is upon the responsibility for caring for others" (L & N, 1, 35.40).
Easy to see how these became "titles" but it appears that this was neither the original meaning, nor the intent.
If anything, I can see these as marks of respect. A bit like when you were a kid, you might have called your Mum and Dad's friends, or the neighbours of parental age, "auntie" or "uncle" even though there is no familial relationship.
Perhaps "watchman" might have been a good name for an episkopos [often trans. overseer] and you can see a watchman quite easily as being a servant of a city, tasked with guarding and protecting the walls or city entrance and thus the inhabitants, the citizens.
A very good and truthful post Twinky. Here is additional information on this from my commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12.
Another very important aspect of unity in the body of Christ is spoken plainly in 1 Corinthians 12:21-24.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
New International Version
This is so contrary to the way worldly political institutions are run whether they be governmental or religious. In fact, with some religious groups, the leaders are so glorified that it chokes the spiritual life out of the common believer. This glorification may be gratifying to the flesh of the leaders, but in reality leaders should be esteemed only for their work and service to the church. Additionally, the members of the body which seem to be ordinary and unspectacular are very necessary. Because the functions and jobs that these faithful believers fulfill are not normally esteemed, we should compensate for this lack and esteem them highly. The reason that we do this is covered in the next verses 25 and 26.
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
New International Version
Each member should have the same concern for one another. When one member suffers, every member suffers with it. When another member is honored, every member should rejoice with it. When this occurs there is no jealousy or other carnal reason for division in the body of Christ. The body of Christ will be a truly unified one with each member having a purpose and a part. 1 Corinthians 12:27 concludes this thought.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
King James Version
I just now noticed that I previously posted this. If you want this deleted because it is a double post I can do that. And Twinky, please say hi to your cats for me.
Mark, cats are doing fine, and one has now started to jump on my knee occasionally. Other has decided she likes being fondled, that is, I hold my hand at her head level and she rubs against it. Only 8 years old and finally discovering people don't always eat them, LOL.
Back (just a little more) to the topic, I've "tamed" them by "holding on to the head," and when I can control their heads I can control their bodies.
I figured that out from learning that I too need to hold on to The Head, and when I do that, it helps me settle and stay focused and not be overly concerned about what comes next.
And all servants of whatever hierarchy definitely need to hold on to the head of their household and serve them well; otherwise, it's the exit door for them.
Once again, another correlation to the military: at promotion ceremonies, when congradulating the person just promoted, I frequently told them that with this new rank, came not only more responsibility but their greater need to serve. If all folks in the military could keep that forefront in their mind (including me) then their would be fewer issues of the abuse of rank.
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Ham
In lack of other words, I adopt those those in the sixties spoke, we were co-opted.
I don't know what all this means.. it is published in your country friend..
http://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-11884,00.html
probably means the same thing here.
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Ham
We're playing those mind games, together.. from another fellow soul mate from your country..
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Twinky
Ham, that has nothing to do with what I posted.
It's something that I have pondered a while. I think church hierarchies do get carried away at times with the title not the serving.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Yes Twinky, some very good points that you are making here. You get an "A" in understanding and communication. Below is an article that I wrote on this subject originally in 1988 and then revised in 2002. As you have stated very well, being service oriented for church leadership is the primary emphasis for true Christ like doctrine and application.
The Lordship of Jesus Christ, Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man
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Twinky
Mark, your article quite rightly makes the point:
"Reverend" simply means "respected" or "revered" - which all Christians should be - that's what got the attention of the non-believers when the early Christian church was becoming established. Those early believers (saints!) were respected for the way they treated other people.
For anyone who's interested, here's a Wikipedia article about the honorific "Reverend" and its various permutations: The Reverend
I have difficulty with the passage in Acts that states that the early apostles gave themselves to prayer, etc, and declined to serve at tables. Sounds a bit like they were "too good" to do menial tasks like that - although, to be fair, I have heard jolly good explanations about that passage - and it also says the congregation was pleased at the outcome.
I can certainly see that some ordained clergymen and -women would have difficulty in undertaking menial roles.
I also know a fair few who actually do undertake such roles, and do so with enthusiasm and joy at serving. God bless them richly.
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socks
Excellent insight Twinky. Innerstin' reading and thought. I think Jesus made it abundantly clear what He expects His followers to do.
I don't think the current religious systems can be fixed. I say that with the caveat that effort towards doing that could certainly improve them but on a large scale effort it's just too much baggage to go through in my opinion.
The only purpose i see for an "organization" is to facilitate the members of the "body of Christ" to work with each other and towards their collective common goals.
Something like the Way Nash-anon never got it, we never took it to the next level of growth and VPW never promoted a true Acts-like functionality in the Way. Good bad or indifferent, the Way just didn't do that, I mean it as less a criticism and more a statement of fact. Running a business to hold classes and seminars isn't the same as caring for the weak and needy in the church and making sure everyone is being taken care of.
Even the example in Acts of the disciples trying to split up the work assumes that there's a desire to do some useful work to help others.
The image I get of the early guys and gals is that they were doing exactly that, doing whatever needed to be done for the growing following. They were, after all the followers of Christ who had known Him, lived with Him, knew Him face to face. If anyone was going to carry the message of service-first-know-us-by-our-love it would have had to be them. Being human I supppose they did the best they could as long as they could.
Today, for me, there's been too much water under the bridge. It's not just the Roman Catholic church although they're about as bloated as you can get. The church/pastor model works fine if it's done using a community/cooperative model...at whatever level the members wish to participate use a share and share alike approach.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Here is part of a commentary that I have written and posted on the Internet that looks entirely in harmony and in agreement with Twinkies posts here.
Another very important aspect of unity in the body of Christ is spoken plainly in 1 Corinthians 12:21-24.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
New International Version
This is so contrary to the way worldly political institutions are run whether they be governmental or religious. In fact, with some religious groups, the leaders are so glorified that it chokes the spiritual life out of the common believer. This glorification may be gratifying to the flesh of the leaders, but in reality leaders should be esteemed only for their work and service to the church. Additionally, the members of the body which seem to be ordinary and unspectacular are very necessary. Because the functions and jobs that these faithful believers fulfill are not normally esteemed, we should compensate for this lack and esteem them highly. The reason that we do this is covered in the next verses 25 and 26.
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
New International Version
Each member should have the same concern for one another. When one member suffers, every member suffers with it. When another member is honored, every member should rejoice with it. When this occurs there is no jealousy or other carnal reason for division in the body of Christ. The body of Christ will be a truly unified one with each member having a purpose and a part.
1 Corinthians chapter 12 Commentary
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Oakspear
There were titles in the New Testament:
diakonos/deacon = one who ministers or serves
pretty humble title, for sure
but there was also
presbuteros/presbyter = elder
and
episkopos/bishop = overseer
these two don't really seem like "servant" titles to me
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Twinky
Presbuteros means basically an older person. Older, therefore (one hopes) wiser.
Such people were often accorded seats on councils - because of their perceived wisdom. Not because of any ranking system (their degree in theology, ability to play the lute, collect more money, etc).
This gives an explanation: BibleHub - Strongs
Only later did it become a sort of title.
As to episkopos, the same site gives this explanation:
1985 epÃskopos (a masculine noun, derived from 1909 /epÃ, "on/fitting contact," which intensifies 4649 /skopós, "look intently," like at an end-marker concluding a race) – properly, an overseer; a man called by God to literally "keep an eye on" His flock (the Church, the body of Christ), i.e. to provide personalized (first hand) care and protection (note the epi, "on").
"Though in some contexts 1985 (epÃskopos) has been regarded traditionally as a position of authority, in reality the focus is upon the responsibility for caring for others" (L & N, 1, 35.40).
Easy to see how these became "titles" but it appears that this was neither the original meaning, nor the intent.
If anything, I can see these as marks of respect. A bit like when you were a kid, you might have called your Mum and Dad's friends, or the neighbours of parental age, "auntie" or "uncle" even though there is no familial relationship.
Perhaps "watchman" might have been a good name for an episkopos [often trans. overseer] and you can see a watchman quite easily as being a servant of a city, tasked with guarding and protecting the walls or city entrance and thus the inhabitants, the citizens.
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Mark Sanguinetti
A very good and truthful post Twinky. Here is additional information on this from my commentary on 1 Corinthians chapter 12.
I just now noticed that I previously posted this. If you want this deleted because it is a double post I can do that. And Twinky, please say hi to your cats for me.
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modcat5
Post is on topic and relevant to a point being made now. Repetition aside, no need to delete it.
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Twinky
:offtopic:/>
Mark, cats are doing fine, and one has now started to jump on my knee occasionally. Other has decided she likes being fondled, that is, I hold my hand at her head level and she rubs against it. Only 8 years old and finally discovering people don't always eat them, LOL.
Back (just a little more) to the topic, I've "tamed" them by "holding on to the head," and when I can control their heads I can control their bodies.
I figured that out from learning that I too need to hold on to The Head, and when I do that, it helps me settle and stay focused and not be overly concerned about what comes next.
And all servants of whatever hierarchy definitely need to hold on to the head of their household and serve them well; otherwise, it's the exit door for them.
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MRAP
Once again, another correlation to the military: at promotion ceremonies, when congradulating the person just promoted, I frequently told them that with this new rank, came not only more responsibility but their greater need to serve. If all folks in the military could keep that forefront in their mind (including me) then their would be fewer issues of the abuse of rank.
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