And, the "training programs" took it one step further, combining immersion with isolation....no phones, no T.V., no outside associating with non-program persons, no spare time for personal interests, etc.
When I studied a foreign language in high school, the first year was an introduction. The second and subsequent years were structured as immersion, no conversing in English while in class. Once you left the classroom, though, there was no isolation. You were free to speak English with whomever you pleased. This is where the "training programs" took it to a level that was not seen or known by the average believer in a local twig fellowship. And, there were consequences for violating this aspect of such programs. It wasn't just immersion, it was total immersion. In the least common denominator, it was behavior modification.
Whenever I had a chance to connect with family members back home, who happened to be Way believers, I felt it was somehow my duty to conceal that reality from them. I guess, in my mind, I thought they might interpret that as simply my being too weak for the experience. It was counter-intuitive. I should have, instead, shouted it from the rooftops to warn others who might have wanted to follow in my footsteps.
And, the "training programs" took it one step further, combining immersion with isolation....no phones, no T.V., no outside associating with non-program persons, no spare time for personal interests, etc.
Oh, yeah......ISOLATION took it to a whole new level.
That's why the Fellow Laborers Program and Corps Program were toxic indoctrination. Of course, wierwille frowned on the Fellow Laborers program, because it was NOT centrally controlled.....it gave more power to Limb coordinators, not Way Nash. Ever notice why it was rarely touted from the big podium?
Oh, yeah......ISOLATION took it to a whole new level.
That's why the Fellow Laborers Program and Corps Program were toxic indoctrination. Of course, wierwille frowned on the Fellow Laborers program, because it was NOT centrally controlled.....it gave more power to Limb coordinators, not Way Nash. Ever notice why it was rarely touted from the big podium?
I spent three years there and can count the number of times VPW visited us, without using any fingers...... Zip, zero, nada, never. Remember, he had a private airplane and we had an airstrip right down the road. The whole trip, start to finish, wouldn't have consumed an entire Saturday morning. I can only surmise he didn't give a rat's azz one way or another how we were doing, as long as it didn't steal any thunder from HQ.
I spent three years there and can count the number of times VPW visited us, without using any fingers...... Zip, zero, nada, never. Remember, he had a private airplane and we had an airstrip right down the road. The whole trip, start to finish, wouldn't have consumed an entire Saturday morning. I can only surmise he didn't give a rat's azz one way or another how we were doing, as long as it didn't steal any thunder from HQ.
Waysider......I hear you, but on one issue I beg to differ.
Wierwille DID give a rat's azz on the Fellow Laborers Program, because it wasn't CENTRALLY CONTROLLED.
By 1976, wierwille was a 60 year old with grandiose visions of implanting his wierwille legacy for all
to see. The Fellow Laborers Program gave more thrust to in-state Limb Homes and meetings. Wierwille
Waysider......I hear you, but on one issue I beg to differ.
Wierwille DID give a rat's azz on the Fellow Laborers Program, because it wasn't CENTRALLY CONTROLLED.
By 1976, wierwille was a 60 year old with grandiose visions of implanting his wierwille legacy for all
to see. The Fellow Laborers Program gave more thrust to in-state Limb Homes and meetings. Wierwille
loathed it for that very reason.
Thus.....Fellow Laborers died an early death.
I see your point, now, and find I must agree with you.
One thing I do need to clarify for those who were never part of one of these programs:
These programs were in NO way geared toward scholastic achievement. Sometimes I would talk to people from back home and could tell they were under the impression we were getting some special, privileged academic training. Absolutely untrue. It was the same old yada, yada we heard over and over and over at the local level. It was dressed up give it a new appearance but you know what they say about a pig and lipstick. Most of it was designed toward getting us to relinquish to a certain commune-like lifestyle, to conform to a uniform way of thinking that was intended to promote PFAL..
No wonder my soul was ALWAYS YEARNING to get on the field, away from hq.
hq was always a quagmire of politicians and confidential informants (CI's). the field was pretty much the same with rampant uncontrolled egos by the few in highest positions. I saw people go into those positions and change, the fear of protecting their position overtaking genuine Christian concern and abilities, then they too turned into politicians who developed their own confidential informants.
my soul yearns for some real people, real Christianity, not these plastic people with fear-induced clichés who micromanage everything. they are the Pharisees of our day and time.
I received a syllabus from a friend. And was looking through it for some Jesus Christ references. It amazed me how little there was about Jesus Christ. Pathetic i bought into it for so long.
quote: When Jesus dealt with the adulterous woman.....what were his parting words? Go, and sin no more. Time and time again, Jesus imparted *independence* [from sin and oppression] and NOT dependence. He didn't school the woman to a probationary program or study program. He set her free! One can clearly see the genuine and the counterfeit by observing the defining lines of INDEPENDENCE OR DEPENDENCE. If the underlying principle is to create a subset of dependents, then the counterfeit is in play.
Today, many of us are dependent on things like automobiles, radio, TV, the internet, texting, cell phones, and many other appliances or machines. No such thing in Jesus' culture. The only thing they were dependent on was studying the OT, going to synagogue, and whatever it took to survive since all they had were daylight hours. All VP/pfal did was replace whatever we were dependent on with studying the word. Better than getting high. Better than a lot of things.
Today, many of us are dependent on things like automobiles, radio, TV, the internet, texting, cell phones, and many other appliances or machines. No such thing in Jesus' culture. The only thing they were dependent on was studying the OT, going to synagogue, and whatever it took to survive since all they had were daylight hours. All VP/pfal did was replace whatever we were dependent on with studying the word. Better than getting high. Better than a lot of things.
This is really a stretch john.
"Today, many of us are dependent on things like automobiles, radio, TV, the internet, texting, cell phones, and many other appliances or machines. No such thing in Jesus' culture."
They were, of course, dependent on their culture's equivalent of the things you listed. They depended on donkeys, vessels for transporting water, fire keepers, town criers, devices for manufacturing clothing and on and on.
"The only thing they were dependent on was studying the OT......."
The common man did not *study* the O.T. The common man was, for the most part, illiterate.
"All VP/pfal did was replace whatever we were dependent on with studying the word."
There are two distinct problems with this. First: He didn't "replace what we were dependent on", he usurped our freedom of choice, what we could eat, when we could sleep, who we could date, who we could marry, when and if we could have children, etc.. Second: You are assuming what we were presented was indeed "The Word". It wasn't "The Word", it was his private interpretation of what he thought the word ought to say. It was the version that best suited his own agenda.
I would go as far as to say that comparing our lifestyle in The Way to the lifestyle of people who lived 2,000 years ago is like comparing pomegranates to radial tires.
There are two distinct problems with this. First: He didn't "replace what we were dependent on", he usurped our freedom of choice, what we could eat, when we could sleep, who we could date, who we could marry, when and if we could have children, etc.. Second: You are assuming what we were presented was indeed "The Word". It wasn't "The Word", it was his private interpretation of what he thought the word ought to say. It was the version that best suited his own agenda.
That's all just your opinion. "Usurped your freedom of choice"??? Nobody stuck a gun to your head. Or anybody else's. All those years you believed God was blessing your life. People are always going to let you down. God never did.
Yeah, I still believe it's the word. If not what IS the word right now? GSC?
That's all just your opinion. "Usurped your freedom of choice"??? Nobody stuck a gun to your head. Or anybody else's. All those years you believed God was blessing your life. People are always going to let you down. God never did.
Yeah, I still believe it's the word. If not what IS the word right now? GSC?
"That's all just your opinion. "Usurped your freedom of choice"??? Nobody stuck a gun to your head. Or anybody else's."
That's not an opinion, john, it's a fact. Participants of these so-called training programs were at the beck and call of leadership. They told you when to sleep, when to get up, when to eat, what to eat, when and if you could leave the compound, who you could date, etc. Where's the freedom of choice? As for the gun to the head phrase, I think we all know there are more ways to control someone than simply holding a gun to their head.
"Yeah, I still believe it's the word. If not what IS the word right now? GSC?"
After all these years of posting here and seeing how Wierwille blatantly plagiarized the works of others, presented flawed *research* on countless occasions and distorted scripture to suite his own agenda, you still don't understand the answer to this?
Yeah, I still believe it's the word. If not what IS the word right now? GSC?
That's because you are still active in a group whose foundations are TWI. And those in charge of that group, along with you, have canonized VPW's teachings as your "father in the Word". And you write here. So apparently your only two choices are regurgitated TWI doctrine, or participating in a forum.
Quite frankly, neither one of them are "the Word".
That's because you are still active in a group whose foundations are TWI. And those in charge of that group, along with you, have canonized VPW's teachings as your "father in the Word". And you write here. So apparently your only two choices are regurgitated TWI doctrine, or participating in a forum.
Quite frankly, neither one of them are "the Word".
He's probably not aware he's engaging in "False Dilemma."
(also known as: false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy, either-or reasoning, fallacy of false choice, fallacy of false alternatives, black-and-white thinking, the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, bifurcation, excluded middle, no middle ground, polarization)
Description: When only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exist between two extremes. False dilemmas are usually characterized by “either this or that” language, but can also be characterized by omissions of choices. Another variety is the false trilemma, which is when three choices are presented when more exist.
Logical Form:
Either X or Y is true.
Either X, Y or Z is true.
Example (two choices):
You are either with God, or against him.
Explanation: As Obi Wan Kenobi so eloquently puts it is Star Wars episode III, “Only a Sith deals in absolutes!” There are also those who simply don’t believe there is a God to be either with or against.
Example (omission):
I thought you were a good person, but you weren’t at church today.
Explanation: The assumption here is that bad people don’t go to church. Of course, good people exist who don’t go to church, and good church-going people could have had a really good reason not to be in church -- like a hangover from the swingers gathering the night before.
Exception: There may be cases when the number of options really are limited. For example, if an ice cream man just has chocolate and vanilla left, it would be a waste of time insisting he has mint chocolate chip. "
quote: When Jesus dealt with the adulterous woman.....what were his parting words? Go, and sin no more. Time and time again, Jesus imparted *independence* [from sin and oppression] and NOT dependence. He didn't school the woman to a probationary program or study program. He set her free! One can clearly see the genuine and the counterfeit by observing the defining lines of INDEPENDENCE OR DEPENDENCE. If the underlying principle is to create a subset of dependents, then the counterfeit is in play.
Today, many of us are dependent on things like automobiles, radio, TV, the internet, texting, cell phones, and many other appliances or machines. No such thing in Jesus' culture. The only thing they were dependent on was studying the OT, going to synagogue, and whatever it took to survive since all they had were daylight hours. All VP/pfal did was replace whatever we were dependent on with studying the word. Better than getting high. Better than a lot of things.
As wierwille closes the final session of pfal, HE SHOWS HIS CARDS.
To paraphrase what wierwille says......"If you [the student] will put away all of your reading material for the next three months, the newspapers, books and material, and delve into this pfal syllabus and these [twi] books, you will hardly know yourself and how life has changed." ...
Actually, I don't recall him saying precisely that. He probably did say to study the PFAL materials (of course he would), but I recall him saying, "Read the epistles" to see who/what/how the new man should be. [lasst bit my paraphrase]
Read the epistles.
Not "Read the gospels," or "Study the life and behavior of Jesus." Not "Practice the Christ lifestyle."
Personally I think there is merit in telling people to read the epistles. Too many churchy types read the gospels and think that that's it. The epistles are somehow irrelevant. So they don't "Learn to walk as he walked" in cultural situations such as we face today.
But I don't think that reading the epistles to the exclusion of the gospels is a good thing.
It's remarkable, really, how much is so very relevant to any culture, in the epistles. Be kind. Be forgiving. Pray. And remember, God's power is available to us to minister healing - just like Christ did. Yeah. Now! We can't learn that from the gospels. But we can learn how to operate that power...as Jesus did.
I distinctly remember him saying this or something very similar. ("Put away the newspapers, put away the magazines, put away the periodicals....study PFAL materials.")....... (session 12?)
I took the class that was filmed in 1967. Maybe it got changed when the LCM version hit the market.
I distinctly remember him saying this or something very similar. ("Put away the newspapers, put away the magazines, put away the periodicals....study PFAL materials.")....... (session 12?)
I took the class that was filmed in 1967. Maybe it got changed when the LCM version hit the market.
"...and when you're done, you won't recognize yourself!"
I don't recall if those were the exact words he used, but, if not, he said something very close to that.
I don't think the actual term "immersion" was widely used at that time but that's exactly what he was suggesting we do, immerse ourselves in the teachings of PFAL. Allow me to take it a step beyond, though. VPW did not want us to do this on an independent basis. He, instead, instituted a system of group immersion that reinforced the indoctrination process... The Way Tree.
Actually, I don't recall him saying precisely that. He probably did say to study the PFAL materials (of course he would), but I recall him saying, "Read the epistles".........
I never said he did. Slowly, re-read my opening post.
Consider, as well, that he encouraged us to "put away" all extraneous, secular materials. At the very least, he was suggesting we initiate a self imposed form of isolation.
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waysider
And, the "training programs" took it one step further, combining immersion with isolation....no phones, no T.V., no outside associating with non-program persons, no spare time for personal interests, etc.
When I studied a foreign language in high school, the first year was an introduction. The second and subsequent years were structured as immersion, no conversing in English while in class. Once you left the classroom, though, there was no isolation. You were free to speak English with whomever you pleased. This is where the "training programs" took it to a level that was not seen or known by the average believer in a local twig fellowship. And, there were consequences for violating this aspect of such programs. It wasn't just immersion, it was total immersion. In the least common denominator, it was behavior modification.
Whenever I had a chance to connect with family members back home, who happened to be Way believers, I felt it was somehow my duty to conceal that reality from them. I guess, in my mind, I thought they might interpret that as simply my being too weak for the experience. It was counter-intuitive. I should have, instead, shouted it from the rooftops to warn others who might have wanted to follow in my footsteps.
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skyrider
Oh, yeah......ISOLATION took it to a whole new level.
That's why the Fellow Laborers Program and Corps Program were toxic indoctrination. Of course, wierwille frowned on the Fellow Laborers program, because it was NOT centrally controlled.....it gave more power to Limb coordinators, not Way Nash. Ever notice why it was rarely touted from the big podium?
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waysider
I spent three years there and can count the number of times VPW visited us, without using any fingers...... Zip, zero, nada, never. Remember, he had a private airplane and we had an airstrip right down the road. The whole trip, start to finish, wouldn't have consumed an entire Saturday morning. I can only surmise he didn't give a rat's azz one way or another how we were doing, as long as it didn't steal any thunder from HQ.
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skyrider
Waysider......I hear you, but on one issue I beg to differ.
Wierwille DID give a rat's azz on the Fellow Laborers Program, because it wasn't CENTRALLY CONTROLLED.
By 1976, wierwille was a 60 year old with grandiose visions of implanting his wierwille legacy for all
to see. The Fellow Laborers Program gave more thrust to in-state Limb Homes and meetings. Wierwille
loathed it for that very reason.
Thus.....Fellow Laborers died an early death.
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waysider
I see your point, now, and find I must agree with you.
One thing I do need to clarify for those who were never part of one of these programs:
These programs were in NO way geared toward scholastic achievement. Sometimes I would talk to people from back home and could tell they were under the impression we were getting some special, privileged academic training. Absolutely untrue. It was the same old yada, yada we heard over and over and over at the local level. It was dressed up give it a new appearance but you know what they say about a pig and lipstick. Most of it was designed toward getting us to relinquish to a certain commune-like lifestyle, to conform to a uniform way of thinking that was intended to promote PFAL..
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chockfull
hq was always a quagmire of politicians and confidential informants (CI's). the field was pretty much the same with rampant uncontrolled egos by the few in highest positions. I saw people go into those positions and change, the fear of protecting their position overtaking genuine Christian concern and abilities, then they too turned into politicians who developed their own confidential informants.
my soul yearns for some real people, real Christianity, not these plastic people with fear-induced clichés who micromanage everything. they are the Pharisees of our day and time.
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Kit Sober
I received a syllabus from a friend. And was looking through it for some Jesus Christ references. It amazed me how little there was about Jesus Christ. Pathetic i bought into it for so long.
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skyrider
And, speaking of CENTRAL CONTROLLED.......
1) WOWs were to be distinctively separate from Limbs
2) WOW Rovers were under hq's central command authority
3) Way West and Way East......became USA Trunk
4) WOW Vet Program (Outreach Cities) had a short life
5) Fellow Laborers Program was never a mainstay program
6) Word in Business....morphed into corps teaching business/professionals
7) Way Disciples replaced old parameters and outreach program
8) Staffer at HQ.......old staffers moved out and corps ran departments
9) Corps Program gave vpw/twi direct oversight of all aspects of command & control
10) Proposals of regional roa events put emphasis on regions....and thus, discarded
What started as baby steps (immersion).......grew to full-scale programs (indoctrination)
and now, reaching adulthood, has arrived at its intended goal (lifetime twi-servitude).
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johniam
quote: When Jesus dealt with the adulterous woman.....what were his parting words? Go, and sin no more. Time and time again, Jesus imparted *independence* [from sin and oppression] and NOT dependence. He didn't school the woman to a probationary program or study program. He set her free! One can clearly see the genuine and the counterfeit by observing the defining lines of INDEPENDENCE OR DEPENDENCE. If the underlying principle is to create a subset of dependents, then the counterfeit is in play.
Today, many of us are dependent on things like automobiles, radio, TV, the internet, texting, cell phones, and many other appliances or machines. No such thing in Jesus' culture. The only thing they were dependent on was studying the OT, going to synagogue, and whatever it took to survive since all they had were daylight hours. All VP/pfal did was replace whatever we were dependent on with studying the word. Better than getting high. Better than a lot of things.
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waysider
This is really a stretch john.
"Today, many of us are dependent on things like automobiles, radio, TV, the internet, texting, cell phones, and many other appliances or machines. No such thing in Jesus' culture."
They were, of course, dependent on their culture's equivalent of the things you listed. They depended on donkeys, vessels for transporting water, fire keepers, town criers, devices for manufacturing clothing and on and on.
"The only thing they were dependent on was studying the OT......."
The common man did not *study* the O.T. The common man was, for the most part, illiterate.
"All VP/pfal did was replace whatever we were dependent on with studying the word."
There are two distinct problems with this. First: He didn't "replace what we were dependent on", he usurped our freedom of choice, what we could eat, when we could sleep, who we could date, who we could marry, when and if we could have children, etc.. Second: You are assuming what we were presented was indeed "The Word". It wasn't "The Word", it was his private interpretation of what he thought the word ought to say. It was the version that best suited his own agenda.
I would go as far as to say that comparing our lifestyle in The Way to the lifestyle of people who lived 2,000 years ago is like comparing pomegranates to radial tires.
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skyrider
Good points, waysider.
And, John......if you want to add "getting high" and/or drugs into the mix, it would
be like equating one's addiction to secularism, but when vpw cruised the streets he
was offering hits of *wierwillism.* And....the problem with this "drug" was....ONLY
wierwille had it and was selling it.
That would be THE WAY to corner the market. :spy:/>
.
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Ham
why would the context of go and sin no more be relevant in terms of smoking a God made vegetable..
go on, just smoke no more pot..
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johniam
quote:
There are two distinct problems with this. First: He didn't "replace what we were dependent on", he usurped our freedom of choice, what we could eat, when we could sleep, who we could date, who we could marry, when and if we could have children, etc.. Second: You are assuming what we were presented was indeed "The Word". It wasn't "The Word", it was his private interpretation of what he thought the word ought to say. It was the version that best suited his own agenda.
That's all just your opinion. "Usurped your freedom of choice"??? Nobody stuck a gun to your head. Or anybody else's. All those years you believed God was blessing your life. People are always going to let you down. God never did.
Yeah, I still believe it's the word. If not what IS the word right now? GSC?
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waysider
"That's all just your opinion. "Usurped your freedom of choice"??? Nobody stuck a gun to your head. Or anybody else's."
That's not an opinion, john, it's a fact. Participants of these so-called training programs were at the beck and call of leadership. They told you when to sleep, when to get up, when to eat, what to eat, when and if you could leave the compound, who you could date, etc. Where's the freedom of choice? As for the gun to the head phrase, I think we all know there are more ways to control someone than simply holding a gun to their head.
"Yeah, I still believe it's the word. If not what IS the word right now? GSC?"
After all these years of posting here and seeing how Wierwille blatantly plagiarized the works of others, presented flawed *research* on countless occasions and distorted scripture to suite his own agenda, you still don't understand the answer to this?
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chockfull
That's because you are still active in a group whose foundations are TWI. And those in charge of that group, along with you, have canonized VPW's teachings as your "father in the Word". And you write here. So apparently your only two choices are regurgitated TWI doctrine, or participating in a forum.
Quite frankly, neither one of them are "the Word".
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WordWolf
He's probably not aware he's engaging in "False Dilemma."
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/94-false-dilemma
"
False Dilemma
(also known as: false dichotomy, the either-or fallacy, either-or reasoning, fallacy of false choice, fallacy of false alternatives, black-and-white thinking, the fallacy of exhaustive hypotheses, bifurcation, excluded middle, no middle ground, polarization)
Description: When only two choices are presented yet more exist, or a spectrum of possible choices exist between two extremes. False dilemmas are usually characterized by “either this or that” language, but can also be characterized by omissions of choices. Another variety is the false trilemma, which is when three choices are presented when more exist.
Logical Form:
Either X or Y is true.
Either X, Y or Z is true.
Example (two choices):
You are either with God, or against him.
Explanation: As Obi Wan Kenobi so eloquently puts it is Star Wars episode III, “Only a Sith deals in absolutes!” There are also those who simply don’t believe there is a God to be either with or against.
Example (omission):
I thought you were a good person, but you weren’t at church today.
Explanation: The assumption here is that bad people don’t go to church. Of course, good people exist who don’t go to church, and good church-going people could have had a really good reason not to be in church -- like a hangover from the swingers gathering the night before.
Exception: There may be cases when the number of options really are limited. For example, if an ice cream man just has chocolate and vanilla left, it would be a waste of time insisting he has mint chocolate chip. "
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newlife
Hi Johniam.....can I PM you???
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johniam
Actually, no, you can't. They won't let me use that.
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Twinky
Actually, I don't recall him saying precisely that. He probably did say to study the PFAL materials (of course he would), but I recall him saying, "Read the epistles" to see who/what/how the new man should be. [lasst bit my paraphrase]
Read the epistles.
Not "Read the gospels," or "Study the life and behavior of Jesus." Not "Practice the Christ lifestyle."
Personally I think there is merit in telling people to read the epistles. Too many churchy types read the gospels and think that that's it. The epistles are somehow irrelevant. So they don't "Learn to walk as he walked" in cultural situations such as we face today.
But I don't think that reading the epistles to the exclusion of the gospels is a good thing.
It's remarkable, really, how much is so very relevant to any culture, in the epistles. Be kind. Be forgiving. Pray. And remember, God's power is available to us to minister healing - just like Christ did. Yeah. Now! We can't learn that from the gospels. But we can learn how to operate that power...as Jesus did.
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waysider
I distinctly remember him saying this or something very similar. ("Put away the newspapers, put away the magazines, put away the periodicals....study PFAL materials.")....... (session 12?)
I took the class that was filmed in 1967. Maybe it got changed when the LCM version hit the market.
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WordWolf
"...and when you're done, you won't recognize yourself!"
NOW does it ring a bell?
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waysider
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skyrider
I never said he did. Slowly, re-read my opening post.
What part of paraphrase do you not understand?
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waysider
Consider, as well, that he encouraged us to "put away" all extraneous, secular materials. At the very least, he was suggesting we initiate a self imposed form of isolation.
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