"With all of its bloviating, TWI never impacted culture one iota.....never even stirred the waters.
Wierwille was ALWAYS on the outside looking in.
As a child, he was a lazy loner.
As a student, he looked for every shortcut.
In seminary, he went against policy and eloped.
In his doctorate studies, he found a degree-mill.
As a small-town pastor, he bucked church boards.
He attended big-name seminars to gather ideas/material."
johniam:
"(so by your definition, "having impact" means being a total conformist, always following the rules, changing your own diapers, being a robot for whoever is in authority, etc.????? Those people have the LEAST impact!)"
[No, he was laying a foundation for his statements. vpw didn't put in the work "in the system."
As a child, he refused to do his chores-he slipped away for hours into the woods.
As a student, he didn't put in the hours of work-he plagiarized and chose the softest options
whenever possible- the man who claimed to teach you Bible languages NEVER STUDIED Bible
languages, he studied Homiletics, how to preach-for Seminary, an incredibly soft option and
one matching someone with a gift for gab and no heart for research.
When it came to seminary rules, he ignored them and just did his best not to get caught
rather than follow the rules he agreed to follow when he enrolled.
When it came to doctoral studies, he went to a de facto degree mill- where plagiarism was
unlikely to get caught.
As a church pastor, however, we have no proof he bucked the church board- only his own
bluster that he did so and they just shut up and accepted it. Far more likely is that
what we have documented is what happened all the way through- he technically did sermons
there weekly, making sure he drew a steady paycheck, then built a side business on their
dime (which he later called "the way") and quit when it was enough to pay him full-time
after years of keeping it going on the side. He got there after visiting with real
ministers whenever possible, trolling for material to plagiarize and charge people for.
In between what vpw did, and your crude extreme polar opposite caricature-the drone-
is where all the legitimate ministers have always existed.
They put in a lot of work, passion fueling their discipline, and they arrive prepared
to help people and to do the job. That's why they affect people's lives for the better
and manage to live fairly free of vices like tobacco, alcohol and rape.]
skyrider:
"Twi's books are not allowed in local libraries."
johniam:
"(bibles were not allowed for public consumption....during the DARK ages, by THOSE authorities.)"
[There is no "those authorities."
twi themselves never wanted their books in any local libraries, because they want people
to pay for any access to them.
No local libraries have had demand for twi books, and have never been given a reason to seek
them out as any reliable source of information.
As for your fictional story, the "Dark" ages weren't really that "dark."
They were, however, before the invention of the printing press. Bibles were not for
peasant consumption because peasants in Europe was generally illiterate and thus had
no demands for owning ANY books. The town priest was literate- and he had a Bible.
The merchant class and nobles were literate in part, and had access to books (what
books there were to own.) There were major universities in a few cities, and students
went there. They had access to Bibles there if they wanted, generally written in Latin
which was not a problem since Latin was the language of scholarship.
Honestly, get an education. Really, it's easy to find all this out. Do some research
online, or visit a modern library.]
skyrider:
"Corps campuses had very little involvement with communities."
johniam:
"(those communities didn't WANT any involvement)"
[And yet, communities all over the country and the world WELCOME involvement with
college and university campuses local to them. If the students behave themselves,
they're welcome to interact and spend money locally. More, many universities have
groups on campus that do charity work locally. One such group is active on over
300 campuses in the US, and is welcomed by local charities over much of the US.
yet twi corps campuses never had that welcome.
Maybe if they ever approached the community with an attitude of "what can I help with?"
rather than "what can you help me with?" that would have been different.
Then again, that would have been an entirely different way corps. ]
skyrider:
"The Way's Auditorium was BUILT with major emphasis on "Word in Culture"......
with orchestra pit, rehearsal rooms, studio, lighting, stage-performance, etc.
and yet, BORING MONOTONE TEACHINGS SEEMS ALL THAT COMES FORTH.
Hardly a ripple to stir the cultural waters."
[vpw was a man who talked a good game but was short at ever delivering on anything
that didn't involve him talking.
For all his talk about show business and performance, twi never made any kind of
inroads into the industry or into mass communication.
They had much of the materials, the equipment, that would be used,
but the equipment is useless if you have no talent to make use of the equipment.
Nowadays, people can reach the world with a video filmed cheaply and hosted
on YouTube. twi's scared to reach out to that medium- since divorced from their
cultivated aura of secrecy, they have nothing to offer. They'd be a laughingstock
on YT the way they were on that talk show.
vpw talked a lot about impacting culture, but never did, and twi never did and
Here we are...scattered abroad. And we impact culture a little bit at a time as we move along and live our
lives. Who else in my school building had their teacher pray for them before a big exam??? And....each of us in our own right did something similar. That wasn't what vp had in mind. But that, nevertheless did and still does have impact in the culture in which we live
It's there....just not the way we were taught it should be there. Do you understand my thoughts or should I rephrase them?
Do you agree at all or not. Be frank and let me know what you think because I really want to know.
Everything we do (and don't do) affects someone, somewhere, somehow. I agree with that. That's really more of a subject for discussion in a philosophy oriented forum.
Wierwille's "Word in Culture" was really a veiled sales campaign, meant to redefine and broaden our idea of the market. It was geared toward saturating that market with his "product". Up until then, generally speaking, we were somewhat limited in who we considered potential customers. We had a niche product. With this new campaign, Wierwille was expanding the definition of his customer base to include parts of the population that had previously been overlooked. Create a need and desire for the product and then sell it. It's a simple marketing strategy that we see being used all around us. Why not use it to sell PFAL related goods? That's what it was all about--selling PFAL to every nook and cranny of the population that may have otherwise been overlooked.
TWI never had a lasting effect on culture. It barely had an effect on American religious history. It was a failed cult movement. If you compare Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormon church to TWI in terms of their impact to TWI, 70+ years into their history, it's no contest. The average person knows who those people are. The average person has never heard of TWI. At all.
TWI doesn't even rise to the level of being disrespected by American culture, because to be disrespected, you first have to be acknowledged, and TWI has barely been acknowledged.
It could still reignite, of course. But at the moment, its influence on culture is as significant as The Neverending Story II's influence on cinema.
Here we are...scattered abroad. And we impact culture a little bit at a time as we move along and live our lives. Who else in my school building had their teacher pray for them before a big exam??? And....each of us in our own right did something similar. That wasn't what vp had in mind. But that, nevertheless did and still does have impact in the culture in which we live.
I wholeheartedly agree that we impact the culture in which we live - by praying for our communities, the people we are involved in, the businesses in which we work, other activities that we know about.
We impact that culture by bringing God into whatever's going on - bringing his blessing into it.
Where I'd disagree is that it is TWI impacting culture. It's not. It's Christianity impacting whatever's going on. That some of us may first have gained some knowledge of God, of Christ, of Christianity, whilst in TWI, is neither here nor there. It is not TWI that is to be given any glory; it's in spite of TWI. All praise to God and the Lord Jesus Christ for what they do, and for allowing us the joy of serving them.
I wholeheartedly agree that we impact the culture in which we live - by praying for our communities, the people we are involved in, the businesses in which we work, other activities that we know about.
We impact that culture by bringing God into whatever's going on - bringing his blessing into it.
Where I'd disagree is that it is TWI impacting culture. It's not. It's Christianity impacting whatever's going on. That some of us may first have gained some knowledge of God, of Christ, of Christianity, whilst in TWI, is neither here nor there. It is not TWI that is to be given any glory; it's in spite of TWI. All praise to God and the Lord Jesus Christ for what they do, and for allowing us the joy of serving them.
Otherwise,
it's like reading "the Diary of Anne Frank" and crediting the Nazis
for adding to literature, because without them the book wouldn't have
I wholeheartedly agree that we impact the culture in which we live - by praying for our communities, the people we are involved in, the businesses in which we work, other activities that we know about.
We impact that culture by bringing God into whatever's going on - bringing his blessing into it.
Where I'd disagree is that it is TWI impacting culture. It's not. It's Christianity impacting whatever's going on. That some of us may first have gained some knowledge of God, of Christ, of Christianity, whilst in TWI, is neither here nor there. It is not TWI that is to be given any glory; it's in spite of TWI. All praise to God and the Lord Jesus Christ for what they do, and for allowing us the joy of serving them.
On a somewhat more serious note, it's important to understand the meaning of "culture". Oftentimes, when we hear people use the term in a social sense, they are really only referring to particular aspects of culture, such as the fine arts, aristocratic lifestyle, refined mannerisms and so forth. In reality, the word has a much broader significance. Fast food, for example, is part of our present "culture". Public education is part of our "culture".
With that thought in mind, I think it's safe to say that The Way had virtually no impact on our current culture.
On a somewhat more serious note, it's important to understand the meaning of "culture". Oftentimes, when we hear people use the term in a social sense, they are really only referring to particular aspects of culture, such as the fine arts, aristocratic lifestyle, refined mannerisms and so forth. In reality, the word has a much broader significance. Fast food, for example, is part of our present "culture". Public education is part of our "culture".
With that thought in mind, I think it's safe to say that The Way had virtually no impact on our current culture.
And....another way to look at this might be how *this aspect of culture*
really good people with such awesome excellent talent who happened to find themselves in the way. still really awesome and good people with excellent talent
wierwille lucked out he had nothing to do with these good people and their gifts, but God did
i think you can really help people when you are yourself and there is no pressure to prove anything to anyone
i really don't think when you love with the love of christ or just your love, you need to "bring" someone somewhere certainly not to box 328 New Knoxville OH 44871
Rocky, I would love for you to be right and for me to be wrong on this one, but if history has taught us anything, it's that a fringe religious group or idea can indeed flourish beyond reason. Look at the Mormons. On paper, there's no way the LDS church succeeds. But it did. Likewise with the Watchtower Society, which shattered into more splinters than a woodchipping factory yet grew by leaps and bounds decades after it was thoroughly discredited.
Yeah, technology is better today. But technology works both ways -- it gives crackpots a new method to spread their word.
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waysider
Oh, heavens no!
I just thought I saw a pattern beginning to build, as it so often does when Biblical comparisons come into the mix.
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skyrider
I love it when johniam keeps adding to our discussions.
His quantum leaps of logic bode well for the cult indoctrination that lingers
decades after one leaves the organization.
Thanks, John......I so appreciate the stark contrast of twi-mysticism
with the gospel of good news.
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WordWolf
skyrider:
"With all of its bloviating, TWI never impacted culture one iota.....never even stirred the waters.
Wierwille was ALWAYS on the outside looking in.
As a child, he was a lazy loner.
As a student, he looked for every shortcut.
In seminary, he went against policy and eloped.
In his doctorate studies, he found a degree-mill.
As a small-town pastor, he bucked church boards.
He attended big-name seminars to gather ideas/material."
johniam:
"(so by your definition, "having impact" means being a total conformist, always following the rules, changing your own diapers, being a robot for whoever is in authority, etc.????? Those people have the LEAST impact!)"
[No, he was laying a foundation for his statements. vpw didn't put in the work "in the system."
As a child, he refused to do his chores-he slipped away for hours into the woods.
As a student, he didn't put in the hours of work-he plagiarized and chose the softest options
whenever possible- the man who claimed to teach you Bible languages NEVER STUDIED Bible
languages, he studied Homiletics, how to preach-for Seminary, an incredibly soft option and
one matching someone with a gift for gab and no heart for research.
When it came to seminary rules, he ignored them and just did his best not to get caught
rather than follow the rules he agreed to follow when he enrolled.
When it came to doctoral studies, he went to a de facto degree mill- where plagiarism was
unlikely to get caught.
As a church pastor, however, we have no proof he bucked the church board- only his own
bluster that he did so and they just shut up and accepted it. Far more likely is that
what we have documented is what happened all the way through- he technically did sermons
there weekly, making sure he drew a steady paycheck, then built a side business on their
dime (which he later called "the way") and quit when it was enough to pay him full-time
after years of keeping it going on the side. He got there after visiting with real
ministers whenever possible, trolling for material to plagiarize and charge people for.
In between what vpw did, and your crude extreme polar opposite caricature-the drone-
is where all the legitimate ministers have always existed.
They put in a lot of work, passion fueling their discipline, and they arrive prepared
to help people and to do the job. That's why they affect people's lives for the better
and manage to live fairly free of vices like tobacco, alcohol and rape.]
skyrider:
"Twi's books are not allowed in local libraries."
johniam:
"(bibles were not allowed for public consumption....during the DARK ages, by THOSE authorities.)"
[There is no "those authorities."
twi themselves never wanted their books in any local libraries, because they want people
to pay for any access to them.
No local libraries have had demand for twi books, and have never been given a reason to seek
them out as any reliable source of information.
As for your fictional story, the "Dark" ages weren't really that "dark."
They were, however, before the invention of the printing press. Bibles were not for
peasant consumption because peasants in Europe was generally illiterate and thus had
no demands for owning ANY books. The town priest was literate- and he had a Bible.
The merchant class and nobles were literate in part, and had access to books (what
books there were to own.) There were major universities in a few cities, and students
went there. They had access to Bibles there if they wanted, generally written in Latin
which was not a problem since Latin was the language of scholarship.
Honestly, get an education. Really, it's easy to find all this out. Do some research
online, or visit a modern library.]
skyrider:
"Corps campuses had very little involvement with communities."
johniam:
"(those communities didn't WANT any involvement)"
[And yet, communities all over the country and the world WELCOME involvement with
college and university campuses local to them. If the students behave themselves,
they're welcome to interact and spend money locally. More, many universities have
groups on campus that do charity work locally. One such group is active on over
300 campuses in the US, and is welcomed by local charities over much of the US.
yet twi corps campuses never had that welcome.
Maybe if they ever approached the community with an attitude of "what can I help with?"
rather than "what can you help me with?" that would have been different.
Then again, that would have been an entirely different way corps. ]
skyrider:
"The Way's Auditorium was BUILT with major emphasis on "Word in Culture"......
with orchestra pit, rehearsal rooms, studio, lighting, stage-performance, etc.
and yet, BORING MONOTONE TEACHINGS SEEMS ALL THAT COMES FORTH.
Hardly a ripple to stir the cultural waters."
[vpw was a man who talked a good game but was short at ever delivering on anything
that didn't involve him talking.
For all his talk about show business and performance, twi never made any kind of
inroads into the industry or into mass communication.
They had much of the materials, the equipment, that would be used,
but the equipment is useless if you have no talent to make use of the equipment.
Nowadays, people can reach the world with a video filmed cheaply and hosted
on YouTube. twi's scared to reach out to that medium- since divorced from their
cultivated aura of secrecy, they have nothing to offer. They'd be a laughingstock
on YT the way they were on that talk show.
vpw talked a lot about impacting culture, but never did, and twi never did and
never will.]
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krys
WordWolf is right.....and yet - -
Here we are...scattered abroad. And we impact culture a little bit at a time as we move along and live our
lives. Who else in my school building had their teacher pray for them before a big exam??? And....each of us in our own right did something similar. That wasn't what vp had in mind. But that, nevertheless did and still does have impact in the culture in which we live
It's there....just not the way we were taught it should be there. Do you understand my thoughts or should I rephrase them?
Do you agree at all or not. Be frank and let me know what you think because I really want to know.
Edited by krysLink to comment
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waysider
Everything we do (and don't do) affects someone, somewhere, somehow. I agree with that. That's really more of a subject for discussion in a philosophy oriented forum.
Wierwille's "Word in Culture" was really a veiled sales campaign, meant to redefine and broaden our idea of the market. It was geared toward saturating that market with his "product". Up until then, generally speaking, we were somewhat limited in who we considered potential customers. We had a niche product. With this new campaign, Wierwille was expanding the definition of his customer base to include parts of the population that had previously been overlooked. Create a need and desire for the product and then sell it. It's a simple marketing strategy that we see being used all around us. Why not use it to sell PFAL related goods? That's what it was all about--selling PFAL to every nook and cranny of the population that may have otherwise been overlooked.
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skyrider
Last night, I attended a Yuletide Celebration at the downtown theatre and symphony orchestra.
With a singing legacy as host, the presentation came in waves of entertainment for the entire
family as singers, dancers and story-lines of Christmas joy filled the stage. The songs and
dance gave a special tribute to music.....from Motown to California to Italy, the celebration
of music in a snap-shot of cultures. With special guests - the four great-grandchildren of
Captain and Maria von Trapp from The Sound of Music fame beautifully told the story
how music has thrived and evolved in cultures the world over.
Now, contrast this with twi's auditorium.
In their auditorium BUILT to "impact culture," the emcee comes forward with his little duties. And
week after week, the Singing Ladies of the Way sway and smile to the rigid conformity of wayspeak.
Some prayers, songs, manifestations, and horns of plenty passed......the appointed reader, umm,
"teacher" steps to the podium and basically reads the approved-message to the audience. This
tape is then sent around the country [and world?] as twi's prevailing word of the week.
Where did that grandeur vision of "Word in Culture" go? How many churches have an orchestra pit?
Or, a balcony-viewpoint for a bland sermon? Of which, most of the time the balcony is sectioned
off so that attendance will somewhat-fill the main section near the stage.
But hey, some churches peak in attendance while others die on the vine.....it's been happening
for a long, long time. The absurdity of twi is maintaining their arrogance in this charade.
And further......that former followers, of decades past, STILL claim the grandeur and impact
of this little known cult in the cornfields of southwestern Ohio.
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Raf
TWI never had a lasting effect on culture. It barely had an effect on American religious history. It was a failed cult movement. If you compare Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormon church to TWI in terms of their impact to TWI, 70+ years into their history, it's no contest. The average person knows who those people are. The average person has never heard of TWI. At all.
TWI doesn't even rise to the level of being disrespected by American culture, because to be disrespected, you first have to be acknowledged, and TWI has barely been acknowledged.
It could still reignite, of course. But at the moment, its influence on culture is as significant as The Neverending Story II's influence on cinema.
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Twinky
I wholeheartedly agree that we impact the culture in which we live - by praying for our communities, the people we are involved in, the businesses in which we work, other activities that we know about.
We impact that culture by bringing God into whatever's going on - bringing his blessing into it.
Where I'd disagree is that it is TWI impacting culture. It's not. It's Christianity impacting whatever's going on. That some of us may first have gained some knowledge of God, of Christ, of Christianity, whilst in TWI, is neither here nor there. It is not TWI that is to be given any glory; it's in spite of TWI. All praise to God and the Lord Jesus Christ for what they do, and for allowing us the joy of serving them.
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WordWolf
Otherwise,
it's like reading "the Diary of Anne Frank" and crediting the Nazis
for adding to literature, because without them the book wouldn't have
been written.
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chockfull
Absolutely!!! Awesome stuff!!!!
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krys
I guess I wasn't clear enough. I never intended that any of the organization's goals and practices were transplanted into the world.
WordWolf, you get the prize for analogy and simile. Your Nazi and Anne Frank is astounding!
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Rocky
No, Raf. It can't..
Perhaps as a reflection on religions, cults, or other organizations IN GENERAL, your statement may have merit.
But there's no way TWI ever reignites as a movement that stirs the excitement of young people... or even old ones.
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waysider
Like trying to light a fire with a wet match.
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skyrider
The twi *experiment* was a flashpoint in time where needful elements
burst on the scene at precisely the right time.
1) On the outer waves of the Jesus Movement
2) A film class in late 1967 ready for market
3) Plagiarized material from godly sources
4) Tapping youth ministers and youthful zeal
5) Friends bringing other friends on board
6) Love, fun, sex, drugs --- no condemnation
7) Mystique and hidden knowledge fed curiosity
8) No internet -- to help expose fraud
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waysider
On a somewhat more serious note, it's important to understand the meaning of "culture". Oftentimes, when we hear people use the term in a social sense, they are really only referring to particular aspects of culture, such as the fine arts, aristocratic lifestyle, refined mannerisms and so forth. In reality, the word has a much broader significance. Fast food, for example, is part of our present "culture". Public education is part of our "culture".
With that thought in mind, I think it's safe to say that The Way had virtually no impact on our current culture.
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skyrider
And....another way to look at this might be how *this aspect of culture*
impacts neighborhoods, communities, boroughs, localities, states, regions,
or the nation.
Twi's cult-sure was a commune.
Heck.....twi bastardized Christmas carols to try and seem relevant, yet
different from the church community.
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waysider
"Twi's cult-sure was a commune."
Yes, this presents a bit of a dilemma.
How do you isolate people from mainstream society and expect them to meld with the masses at the same time?
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excathedra
really good people with such awesome excellent talent who happened to find themselves in the way. still really awesome and good people with excellent talent
wierwille lucked out he had nothing to do with these good people and their gifts, but God did
hope that made sense
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skyrider
And....taking it a step further, **How do you isolate people from mainstream society
and expect them to LEAD and REDIRECT the masses?**
Everything coming out of twi has connotations of power--impact--prevail.....so one
can't just meld with the masses or, seemingly, go along to get along. NO. A THOUSAND
TIMES, NO.....or else, twi's teachings are just syrupy sermons. Yet, the dominant
twi-leadership will hardly allow little johnnie to go outside and play. He's learned
to be a recluse....just like "his parents."
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excathedra
i think you can really help people when you are yourself and there is no pressure to prove anything to anyone
i really don't think when you love with the love of christ or just your love, you need to "bring" someone somewhere certainly not to box 328 New Knoxville OH 44871
i hope i got that wrong finally
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Raf
Rocky, I would love for you to be right and for me to be wrong on this one, but if history has taught us anything, it's that a fringe religious group or idea can indeed flourish beyond reason. Look at the Mormons. On paper, there's no way the LDS church succeeds. But it did. Likewise with the Watchtower Society, which shattered into more splinters than a woodchipping factory yet grew by leaps and bounds decades after it was thoroughly discredited.
Yeah, technology is better today. But technology works both ways -- it gives crackpots a new method to spread their word.
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Twinky
Thank God TWI hasn't really discovered the internet yet.
Even though some of its splinters have.
TWI's website has to be about the most static website one can possibly imagine.
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waysider
Technology is probably the ONLY reason their twisted dogma persists. Without youtube, JL would probably be unloading trucks with LCM.
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