TWI: The Neverland of Peter Pan

[WordWolf]

Will there ever be an end to this nonsense? You know.....devotees of wayworld, twiers and ex-twiers, who fantasize [idolize] the "good-ole days." Those who fondly remember the green bumper stickers, tent city at roa, Takit songs, tee-shirts and junk promo, etc.

A world where you never grow up.

A world where you fly away to an ISOLATED island.

A world where you shun responsibility and reality.

What kind of cult-induced charisma can one possibly be clinging to? Wierwille's claims of "the law of believing," a more-abundant-life, and "word over the world twi-style" has been denounced with a commanding THUD. The magician has left the stage. The lights have come up. The props have collapsed. The smoke and mirrors have cleared. And, the tricks are not nearly as impressive.....now.

The cult of personality seems to linger decades later for those who refuse to address reality. Fine. It's there life and they can live in denial and daydream of Neverland if they so desire. But really? Holding onto incongruous, contradictory beliefs when facts, reality, and truth are staring you in the face is known as cognitive dissonance....a mental disorder.

I contend that TWI, the self-perpetuating cult, began dying in 1978. Why? Time, and reality, HAD MOVED ON WITHOUT WIERWILLE NOTICING. Corps and Advanced Class grads were marrying and starting families. And children brought a whole new set of dynamics that wierwille was not addressing. He thought his charisma would carry the day. But it didn't. The reality of increasing responsibilities, financial concerns, career paths, educational pursuits, etc.....all toward the view of upward mobility was being discussed on the home front. Responsible people are not stupid. They plan for the road ahead.

Many, many quality individuals.....and maybe, that's the optimal word "individuals".....were slipping away to pursue higher education and/or career paths. In my corps, some 325 graduated. But within a couple of years, dozens upon dozens were gone.....and that was back in Wierwille's day, 1981. Of course, all the fanfare was towards those who were running Limbs and running classes......but those slipping out the back door was apparent to those who had a modicum of discernment.

To those slipping away......they didn't believe in twi's "Neverland."

Maybe, its just me. I've been this way my whole life. I grew up on a farm and was driving a tractor at age 10. My Dad expected me to be responsible. There was no excuse for being lackadaisical or daydreaming of hanging at the swimming pool all summer. None of that. There was work to be done. We worked long days. And, sports had the same coordinates: no excuses for not improving, not moving forward.

Cult-land: The New Neverland Fantasy.

I had some good times. I won't deny that. I also had some bad times---- lots and lots of them. The cost of those "good times" was much too high. Some even paid with their lives.

When the smoke all cleared, I was faced with the reality that The Way was nothing but a cult, not even a special cult, just a piddly little Bible cult set in a cornfield, led by a scam artist who used the Bible to attach credibility to his twisted agenda..

[chockfull]

In which one told me recently of past ATROCITY that happened to her....and her only response was to ignore it and move on. It doesn't matter how much I say about the abuses and how wrong it is, she is under dilusion. Comfortable. Not ready to leave the confines of her religion. Not wanting to upset the apple cart. BUT, if and when she is ready, I hope she can come here to find answers.

I remember this mindset all too well. Atrocity after atrocity and you just keep taking it and taking it. Ignore it, pretend it didn't happen, move on. Just part of the "renewed mind". Verses like "whatsoever things are good, honest, ..., think on those things", like "forget the past press forward toward the mark". You just never think that their spiritual authority is false and that false power is the only hold they have over you. You know some of those verses they taught in Galatians about "who has bewitched you", they are teaching about themselves. They are the ones that bewitch people to accepting their false spiritual authority, which God did not give them - they attained it through political maneuvering and posturing. Then they use that authority to abuse people and make their own life easier.

Somewhere down deep I knew it was all BS, all a lie. But it's weird. It's like it's not your life - you can't connect simple logical steps. People are abusing you so distance yourself from them. Stand up to them. Stand up for yourself. Very core survival instincts are stripped away by these people. And lives definitely are damaged through exposure to this.

I'm glad God allowed my vision to clear and me to wake up. Some never wake up - they follow their Egyptian taskmasters and live their bondage-filled lives, and die miserable.

[skyrider]

Somewhere down deep I knew it was all BS, all a lie. But it's weird. It's like it's not your life - you can't connect simple logical steps. People are abusing you so distance yourself from them. Stand up to them. Stand up for yourself.

Yeah....like when my limb coordinator, 4th corps guy, was planning to exit twi

at the end of the 1977/78 tenure. The questions and discrepancies of twi's hypocrisy

was front and center......and I, TOO, SHOULD HAVE EXITED......but I didn't.

Deep down, I knew things weren't right. But I kept trying to trying to water this tree

even though it was rotting at the core.

[hiway29]

And... if anyone dared talk about the abuses and atrocities, THEY were the problem -speaking evil of 'leadership' was the ultimate crime in the way. Incredible how they managed to enforce that for so long.

[zbrick]

Schadenfreude -- German: is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. This word is a loanword from German. The literal English translation is 'Harm-Joy'. It is the feeling of joy or pleasure when one sees another fail or suffer misfortune. It is also borrowed by some other languages.

-- Wikipedia

So, you asked about how knowing lcm was working at UPS

or whatever enhanced anyone's eternal salvation.

It was a stupid question, so I said so in a nicer way.

It's a non-issue. You seem to be the only one posting who thinks that it's an issue

and relevant to why we discuss what was done and what was happened.

lcm's job at UPS is a non-issue cocnerning people's eternal salvation.

DUUUUUHHH.

I can't tell if you're legitimately that slow, but you seem fairly able

to communicate properly, so it seems you're doing that DELIBERATELY.

In discussions about lcm's job, discussing eternal salvation of complete

strangers to him is a non-issue and off-topic.

In discussions about eternal salvation, discussion lcm working at UPS

is a non-issue and off-topic.

But, then, you brought up BOTH on a thread about NEITHER and blamed me

for them being non-issues.

WordWolf

Okay, my badd on this one. Come to think of it, a UPS driver (or a "brownie") is probably a lot better paid and compensated than most American workers these days.

So allow me to replace "Martindale working for UPS" with the term, "Way Ministry lawsuits (including some that actually involved Craig Martindale)", which can be amply found here on the Grease Spot Café website. I'll also replace the term, "Eternal Salvation" with, "edifying my life as both a human being and a Christian" – does that make YOU happy, WordWolf dawg???

But, of course, that leads to the question here, how the heck does reading about all the allegedly Way Ministry-related Court suits for the past years, decades, quarter centuries, etc., help "edify" my personal life as both a Christian as well as a human being? What exactly is the "profit" of studying and memorizing all this particular information?

I really was willing to let it go, and be the adult and leave you alone

about your foolishness.

What we saw before:

Ralph D, once upon a time, reported about a number of incidents-

which we have documentation on this website which people can read,

and have discussed in detail, which he has even discussed here-

and you mistakenly conflated them into ONE incident.

Then you reported that "Passing of the Patriarch" was about something it

had nothing to do with, because you didn't know any better.

Someone corrected you. You got hostile and insisted you were correct.

People linked you to the document so you can read it yourself-

instead of being someone who never read a document who was telling people

who read it what it said-and getting it all wrong.

You refused, and we dropped it.

I figured you'd later read the thing and were embarassed you had been so

incorrect and yet so strident about it and being wrong, that you

would rather just never mention it again than admit you'd made such an

elementary mistake. Being an adult, I was willing to just let that go.

I was wrong about that-I thought too much of you.

Apparently, you still haven't read it, and instead of the fault being

yours for misunderstanding something,

the fault is ours for pointing out you made a big mistake.

WordWolf

The name of the blog posting in question was: "Since initiating the Holy Bible, has God 'flipped-flopped' on Fornication?", dtd. 8-15-12, with a photo of Marcus and Joni Lamb of Daystar Ministries – why YOU and penworks chose to come on here and perpetuate this lie that that posting was ALL ABOUT, "The Passing of the Patriarch" is totally beyond me. I can only assume that you're so obsessed with "hating" Way leaders of decades and quarter centuries past, you needed somebody with an actual pulse and heartbeat to target your venom – aside from the guy, of course, who's supposedly living in "exile" down there in Toledo Ohio.

See, WordWolf dawg, the fact that you've got about a half dozen GSC "regulars" here bobbling their proverbial heads up and down agreeing with you on what exactly this posting was actually all about doesn't really change "the truth". It's not too much different than the masses claiming the Emperor is wearing a beautiful robe, when in fact, the Emperor has no clothes. If I knew who you were beyond the WordWolf pseudonym, I'd be more than happy to make a sizable wager with you and ask either a high school English teacher or a college English professor what THEY thought that blog posting was really ALL ABOUT.

I have indeed read thru, "The Passing of the Patriarch", to which I have to say, I'd love to see the notarized evidence that Victor Paul Wierwille authorized his permission to be publicly released like that AFTER his death. For example, I love my two sons to pieces, although, sometimes, they disappoint me. At some points, I might confide in a close friend or a relative on how should I respond to a certain situation with one of my sons. That DOES NOT authorize my close friend to use my statements, expressing my periodic disappointment towards one (or both) of my sons to be spewed out to the general public in the event of my death.

Chris Geer sort of reminds me of Ben Thomas, a.k.a. -- the "professional bodyguard" who was comedienne Roseanne Barr's third husband. Can you say, "a bodyguard desperate to exploit their '15 minutes of fame'?" I did find it sort of amusing, however, to read about how Geer enjoyed taking off Dr. Wierwille's shoes and clothes anytime he was tired and ready to go to bed – oh well, to each his own, I always say.

But getting back to my original point of this particular posting, how the heck does perpetuating this smut known as, "The Passing of the Patriarch" EDIFY my life (or anybody's life, for that matter) to become a better Christian, or a better human being? Where's the PROFIT behind that? I don't see any responses from you on this one, WordWolf dawg? The sounds of the crickets here from my questions are absolutely deafening.

THIS is why we post.

We keep saying that.

You keep missing that.

Why bother coming here when it so offends your sensibilities?

WordWolf

WordWolf

• Posts: 11,997

• Joined: 13-June 02

zbrick

• Posts: 35

• Joined: 23-November 06

See, I'm perfectly content here on GSC with just seeking out old friends from the past or paying my respects to a few brothers and sisters in Christ who have passed on to be with the Lord. But when you're spreading lies here, especially when they're indirectly affecting me and one of my former blog posts, I think I have every right to step in and set the record straight.

[waysider]

You stated in your blog post that Wierwille had admitted his "indiscretions". He never did any such thing.

Are we back on topic now?

[WordWolf]

(snip)

Okay, my badd on this one. Come to think of it, a UPS driver (or a “brownie”) is probably a lot better paid and compensated than most American workers these days.

So allow me to replace “Martindale working for UPS” with the term, “Way Ministry lawsuits (including some that actually involved Craig Martindale)”, which can be amply found here on the Grease Spot Café website. I’ll also replace the term, “Eternal Salvation” with, “edifying my life as both a human being and a Christian” – does that make YOU happy, WordWolf dawg???

But, of course, that leads to the question here, how the heck does reading about all the allegedly Way Ministry-related Court suits for the past years, decades, quarter centuries, etc., help “edify” my personal life as both a Christian as well as a human being? What exactly is the “profit” of studying and memorizing all this particular information?

Reminds me of an old complaint about a certain type of Christian.

Would you like some gum?

I don't need gum-I have Jesus!

When posters have already come forward and said they personally benefited

from the types of posts you're complaining about, (same thread, 1 page back)

and you can turn around and claim you can't figure out where the benefit is,

nothing else I can say will help you.

As the old cliché goes, It takes a big man (or woman) to stand up and publicly admit they were wrong. With that being said, WordWolf and penworks must be very “small” human beings – figuratively speaking, at least.

The name of the blog posting in question was: “Since initiating the Holy Bible, has God ‘flipped-flopped’ on Fornication?”, dtd. 8-15-12, with a photo of Marcus and Joni Lamb of Daystar Ministries – why YOU and penworks chose to come on here and perpetuate this lie that that posting was ALL ABOUT, “The Passing of the Patriarch” is totally beyond me.

Actually, the truth is totally beyond you.

A) Nobody said the post was "ALL ABOUT" the large errors you posted on your blog.

You made more than one factual error and were called on it.

The context of the errors doesn't change that they were factually inaccurate.

That kept coming up, and you insisted they were true.

You insisted that vpw came clean publicly and confessed some of his perversions and felonies.

He did no such thing.

You insisted that "Passing of the Patriarch" was a letter specifically addressing that.

It was no such thing.

In fact, you kept insisting that even after people posted links to the document so you could

read it for yourself. You were going to people who'd read the document, and insisting that

its contents were completely different than what they were.

Rather than thanking them, or even quietly correcting yourself, dusting yourself off, and

moving on, you've chosen to respond with verbal attacks and insults to those people who

committed the crime of being right when you wanted to be right instead.

I have indeed read thru, “The Passing of the Patriarch”, to which I have to say, I’d love to see the notarized evidence that Victor Paul Wierwille authorized his permission to be publicly released like that AFTER his death. For example, I love my two sons to pieces, although, sometimes, they disappoint me. At some points, I might confide in a close friend or a relative on how should I respond to a certain situation with one of my sons. That DOES NOT authorize my close friend to use my statements, expressing my periodic disappointment towards one (or both) of my sons to be spewed out to the general public in the event of my death. \

So now you're accepting that the contents of POP

were different than you were previously insisting they were.

That's a step in the right direction.

Now, if you could have done that without insulting and attacking

others and making it all about you, we would be on-topic on the

topic you interrupted.

If you want to discuss POP, make your own thread for it.

But getting back to my original point of this particular posting, how the heck does perpetuating this smut known as, “The Passing of the Patriarch” EDIFY my life (or anybody’s life, for that matter) to become a better Christian, or a better human being? Where’s the PROFIT behind that? I don’t see any responses from you on this one, WordWolf dawg? The sounds of the crickets here from my questions are absolutely deafening.[/size]

I'm skipping the classless comments.

Some people were lied to about the contents of POP.

Some people-imagine that if you can- were mistaken about the contents of POP.

Truth has a value in and of itself, especially when dealing with an organization

that attempted to handle its affairs secretly.

A number of posters have felt enriched for gaining in that knowledge. It enhanced

their understanding, and they felt better-off for it.

If you don't see any benefit of any of the GSC content, you do not need to

read it. It neither has to be something I see the benefit to, nor does it need

to be something you see the benefit to.

See, I’m perfectly content here on GSC with just seeking out old friends from the past or paying my respects to a few brothers and sisters in Christ who have passed on to be with the Lord. But when you’re spreading lies here, especially when they’re indirectly affecting me and one of my former blog posts, I think I have every right to step in and set the record straight.[/font][/size]

I've been factually correct about you each time.

You didn't like that, so you've invented lies like the ones I quoted above

to draw attention from that and do other things.

I have every right to step in and set the record straight.

You stated in your blog post that Wierwille had admitted his "indiscretions". He never did any such thing.

Are we back on topic now?

Hopefully, we are.

Will there ever be an end to this nonsense? You know.....devotees of wayworld, twiers and ex-twiers, who fantasize [idolize] the "good-ole days." Those who fondly remember the green bumper stickers, tent city at roa, Takit songs, tee-shirts and junk promo, etc.

A world where you never grow up.

A world where you fly away to an ISOLATED island.

A world where you shun responsibility and reality.

What kind of cult-induced charisma can one possibly be clinging to? Wierwille's claims of "the law of believing," a more-abundant-life, and "word over the world twi-style" has been denounced with a commanding THUD. The magician has left the stage. The lights have come up. The props have collapsed. The smoke and mirrors have cleared. And, the tricks are not nearly as impressive.....now.

The cult of personality seems to linger decades later for those who refuse to address reality. Fine. It's there life and they can live in denial and daydream of Neverland if they so desire. But really? Holding onto incongruous, contradictory beliefs when facts, reality, and truth are staring you in the face is known as cognitive dissonance....a mental disorder.

I contend that TWI, the self-perpetuating cult, began dying in 1978. Why? Time, and reality, HAD MOVED ON WITHOUT WIERWILLE NOTICING. Corps and Advanced Class grads were marrying and starting families. And children brought a whole new set of dynamics that wierwille was not addressing. He thought his charisma would carry the day. But it didn't. The reality of increasing responsibilities, financial concerns, career paths, educational pursuits, etc.....all toward the view of upward mobility was being discussed on the home front. Responsible people are not stupid. They plan for the road ahead.

Many, many quality individuals.....and maybe, that's the optimal word "individuals".....were slipping away to pursue higher education and/or career paths. In my corps, some 325 graduated. But within a couple of years, dozens upon dozens were gone.....and that was back in Wierwille's day, 1981. Of course, all the fanfare was towards those who were running Limbs and running classes......but those slipping out the back door was apparent to those who had a modicum of discernment.

To those slipping away......they didn't believe in twi's "Neverland."

Maybe, its just me. I've been this way my whole life. I grew up on a farm and was driving a tractor at age 10. My Dad expected me to be responsible. There was no excuse for being lackadaisical or daydreaming of hanging at the swimming pool all summer. None of that. There was work to be done. We worked long days. And, sports had the same coordinates: no excuses for not improving, not moving forward.

Cult-land: The New Neverland Fantasy.

I had some good times. I won't deny that. I also had some bad times---- lots and lots of them. The cost of those "good times" was much too high. Some even paid with their lives.

When the smoke all cleared, I was faced with the reality that The Way was nothing but a cult, not even a special cult, just a piddly little Bible cult set in a cornfield, led by a scam artist who used the Bible to attach credibility to his twisted agenda..

[dmiller]

zbrick - - I see that yesterday was the seventh anniversary of your joining GSC.

One would think that you'd gleaned "a little" of the purpose of this board in that time.

This site is not like a "retemory card" that we memorize and study "for our profit".

Maybe in another seven years you'll understand that and listen to what's being said.

As someone said earlier - - "The truth seems to be beyond you". Catch up if you can.

[waysider]

Zbrick

I don't think you are grasping the significance of P.O.P.

(Document appears HERE.)

It was not written by a GSC subscriber, it was written by Chris G33r. He claimed this was a factually accurate accounting of his last days with Wierwille. He presented it as if it was some sort of modern day epistle to the church. He set himself in a lofty position, like an apostle to be followed. Simply stated, it was a power grab for control of The Way. I could go on and on but there are already threads that discuss the content of the document. You might want to read them. You could, alternatively, start your own thread and discuss it again if you so desire.

Cutting to the chase.....The document, itself, is not what's being discussed here. What's being discussed is your misrepresenting a crucial aspect of its content.

You said that Wierwille admitted his "indiscretions". That is not true. He did not come clean and apologize, not in P.O.P. nor anywhere else.

Edited November 25, 2013 by waysider

[zbrick]

The Christological disagreements of the early Church were settled by the time of the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD. The result was what is popularly called the doctrine of the Trinity, but it's not what people think it is. It is that Jesus Christ has two natures, he is both fully human and fully divine. Do we understand that now the same way they understood it 1,562 years ago? No, we certainly do not! I'm inclined to believe the dyophysite feature of the trinity resides in the gift of the Holy Spirit rather than in the man Christ Jesus. Do you think the Lord Jesus Christ is the active head of his body? If so, then Jesus could have negated the doctrine of the Trinity ANY TIME HE WANTED TO during the last 15 hundred and sixty-two years. But he hasn't. Jesus can work far better with people who accept some form of trinitarian belief than he can with people who teach that he is absent, and then usurp his position in the minds of their followers, the way Wierwille did.

Steve Lortz

What do I have to say about the "Trinity"? Not much. It doesn't appear in the Bible. So it's a church relic, like the "Apostle's Creed". Yet Wierwille's handling of Jesus Christ leaves much to be desired, and how he lived his life doesn't line up with someone whose life is built upon a rock. it just doesn't work that way, with all your life fruit showing as crap but you have some enlightened pure doctrine. in reality, the doctrine is as flawed as the life lived spouting it.

Chockfull

Ooo, your lips say "no-no-no," but your eyes say "yes-yes-yes"!

Elliot Garfield (Richard Dreyfuss) in the movie, The Goodbye Girl

So which is it exactly? Was Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille a Christian “genius” on his famous (or should I say, infamous) book, Jesus Christ is NOT God, OR, did this make him one of the biggest religious Heretics of all time??? Is God supposedly telling the world here that this proves, “Even a broken clock is correct at least twice in one day”?

Both Steve Lortz and chockfull seem like they really don’t want to throw out the bathwater along with the baby here. It’s sort of like saying, yeah, Victor Paul Wierwille may have been a moral reprobate, but he just had an uncanny knack for “rightly dividing the Word of God, a.k.a. The Bible”.

My good buddy, WordWolf, stated earlier in this thread that the “regulars” here on Grease Spot Café were out to help people identify “wolves in sheep’s clothing”, as well as pointing out the “toxic doctrines” of the Way Ministry. Most Christians familiar with the Way Ministry would probably agree that THE most “toxic doctrine” associated with that organization – bar none – is its stance on, Jesus Christ is NOT God.

Muhammad never claimed to be God, Buddha never claimed to be God, ditto Brigham Young, ditto Joseph Smith. Yet, there are at least a dozen Biblical scriptures which Jesus Christ claims to be either equal with God, or the same as God.

What most Way believers, not to mention ex-WAYfers like those here on Grease Spot Café, refer to Christians who believe in the Trinity – which is about 99.9 percent of them as, “Trinitarians”. Most other people, who were never associated with The Way, would simply view this as a, Traditional Christian belief.

For someone either currently or formerly associated with The Way to claim they NEVER engaged in a “heated discussion” with a Christian over the subject of whether or not Jesus Christ is actually God, then they must’ve been simply “sitting on the proverbial sidelines and mailing it in” so to speak, because I definitely had more than my share of these types of discussions with these people.

But even more importantly, for new people who are currently involved in The Way, what exactly would somebody recommend as a good Bible-based church to get involved with instead? Other than just saying to them, “good luck”. If believing in a church that supports the “Trinity”, is viewed as a “toxic doctrine”, then would you endorse either a Mormon or Jehovah Witness church? Oh, but wait a second, neither the Mormons nor the Jehovah Witnesses believe in Speaking in Tongues – ouch!

So perhaps Victor Paul Wierwille’s Power for Abundant Living class is the greatest foundational teaching of The Bible in our lifetimes – ya think? What an excellent subject to discuss on an Internet blog or something like that. Just sayin.

[Modgellan]

EVERYONE- please return to the original topic of this thread

[dmiller]

So perhaps Victor Paul Wierwille’s Power for Abundant Living class is the greatest foundational teaching of The Bible in our lifetimes – ya think? What an excellent subject to discuss on an Internet blog or something like that. Just sayin.

I would guess that the quote above gets back to the "Neverland" mentioned in the

original post. A "safe place" where you never need wander from forever and a day.

[dmiller]

And as pertaining to the second post to the original post - - -

If an individual, for example, were about to experience a Divorce (which I think is a zillion times more stressful than learning that your minister was engaging in a few "moral improprieties"), and you had trouble sleeping for a couple of weeks, a good friend would probably recommend that person seek some psychiatric counseling and hopefully get a prescription for Prozac or Vicitin to help them sleep at night until they could get over their stress. Assuming that person were to hold that same level of bitterness and animosity against an ex spouse for DECADES or QUARTER CENTURIES, most people would view them as "insane", or maybe even candidates to be "institutionalized".

I find this to be further proof of some ex (or not) twi folks living in "La-La" land. The mental crap and intellectual robbery that any and all TWI members went through isn't easily forgotten and remembering the injustices from decades ago does NOT qualify as being equated to an "insane" analysis, or institutionalization. I would suggest that the person (persons) holding this point of view go in for the treatment that they suggest for the rest of us, since they are (obviously) the ones who are hoodwinked and delusional. Especially since they have been associated with TWI, and still hold to it's precepts after given all the proof (for the fallacies propounded by twi), that they need right here on GSC.

P.S. - - anyone who uses the word zillion is a "low baller" in my book. Define "zillion".

You can't. If you mean to express magnitude of any sort, say so in sensible terms.

[waysider]

"Will there ever be an end to this nonsense?"

Probably not.

[skyrider]

"Will there ever be an end to this nonsense?"

Probably not.

Some continue to dream and romanticize the guy who could fly,

the pixie dust fairy, the adventures and (sigh).....the villain

walking the plank to his utter doom.

A mystical world of believing....and every wish coming true.

Why should there be an end to this dream-world? Wierwille, came

dashing to the rescue of my woeful world of realism, told me

that it was real and where dreams REALLY DO come true.

[waysider]

A mystical world of believing....and every wish coming true.

Now, honestly, who would ever want to leave a place like that?

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

zbrick, wow(and I don't mean Word over the World), you still run PFAL classes? In addition to my Lutheran congregation, I host an organic church, egalitarian/equalist which has no offices or titles, and I run Alpha, Open Home/Open Bible, 8 Searching Issues, Purpose Driven Life, Foundations, Christian Believer, Beginings series, Christianity Explored, Discipleship Explored, Reality, Walk the Talk, Life Worth Living, Jesus Lifestyle, Power Surge, Christian Life and Witness, and Beta video classes for free and meals/snacks/refreshments lasting less than 2 hours usually and with small group discussion after the presentation. Far better than Power For Abundant Living/Way of Abundance and Power. I feel sorry for you. btw, read Frank Viola and Leonard Sweet's Jesus: a Theography, much better than Jesus Christ is not God or One God and One Lord from Spirit and Truth Fellowship.

by the way(pun intended) is Martindale Peter Pan, Wierwille Captain Hook, and Rivenbark Tinkerbell? :biglaugh:/>/> guess that makes us Smee and the Lost Boys

wanted to highlight the last sentence of my reply but don't know how to, as it relates to the original post

[Steve Lortz]

So which is it exactly? Was Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille a Christian “genius” on his famous (or should I say, infamous) book, Jesus Christ is NOT God, OR, did this make him one of the biggest religious Heretics of all time??? Is God supposedly telling the world here that this proves, “Even a broken clock is correct at least twice in one day”?

Both Steve Lortz and chockfull seem like they really don’t want to throw out the bathwater along with the baby here. It’s sort of like saying, yeah, Victor Paul Wierwille may have been a moral reprobate, but he just had an uncanny knack for “rightly dividing the Word of God, a.k.a. The Bible”.

I don't understand your logic, zbrick. You caricature things that other people say, and then get pi$$ed off at your caricature, without ever considering what the people have actually said.

What is up with that?

Love,

Steve

[chockfull]

But getting back to my original point of this particular posting, how the heck does perpetuating this smut known as, "The Passing of the Patriarch" EDIFY my life (or anybody's life, for that matter) to become a better Christian, or a better human being? Where's the PROFIT behind that? I don't see any responses from you on this one, WordWolf dawg? The sounds of the crickets here from my questions are absolutely deafening.

I want to get back to this topic for a bit, as this is a common criticism and argument seen around here. Taken to its very extreme, this type of logic is the same that people use to justify remaining in TWI or other damaging groups. The logic is only dwelling on that which "edifies", and excluding all else from your consideration. We don't want to talk about the "POP" stuff, or this other stuff like VP's sexual problems or plagiarism problems, because it's not edifying.

What this is typically known as in thinking circles is "censorship". People want to censor topics, discussions, etc. and as a framework for doing so use whether something "edifies" or not (or "profitable" as VP's word was). What is not typically seen is that this censorship behavior actually is language and behavior of control. What "edifies" or not is typically defined by someone in power, and used to silence the voice of those not in power. I have yet to see any form of democratic approach to defining what "edifies" or what is "profitable".

Also, this viewpoint is about the exact opposite of any Biblical logic. For example, the vast majority of the OT prophets spent a large portion of the messages they presented as negative. Crying out against Israel, calling for repentance, stating God's will in opposition to that going on currently. Jesus followed in those footsteps, turning over business tables in the temple, confronting the Pharisees. Where you see censorship recorded in the Bible, typically it is someone in power trying to shut up a prophet with a message they didn't want to hear (i.e. negative one). A leader in power is never going to allow questioning whether their will, decisions, or actions are "edifying" or "profitable". The logic pretty much instead of leaders being honest and repenting, always gravitates towards "God called me to this position, so you are opposing God to oppose me".

People twist this censorship around so that the person doing wrong is the one speaking up with the truth. It is supported by tremendous peer pressure, accusations, defamations, and the like. It becomes, again, language for slavery and to promote slavery.

So how does the POP paper "edify" me? It allows me to see the fruit of an organization. The fruit of a corporate culture in TWI. Thus this fulfills Jesus teaching of knowing people by their fruit. Seeing the rampant ego, and the extremity of the logic in that paper certainly gives enough background to see the leaven of the Pharisees at work. And after seeing it, as Jesus suggested, people can "beware" of it. Meaning don't trust those people.

So, anyway, there are a few scriptural and biblical logic points to help counteract all the echoing going on in your head due to the deafening sound of crickets and the loud echoing of the questions.

[waysider]

I did a Wiki search on Peter Pan and this is part of what I found.

It details some of the character's personality traits.It's easy to draw some parallels. :P

Personality

Peter is mainly an exaggerated stereotype of a boastful and careless boy. He is quick to point out how great he is, even when such claims are questionable (such as when he congratulates himself for Wendy's successful re-attachment of his shadow). In the book and play, as well as both film adaptations, Peter either symbolises or personifies the selfishness of childhood, shown in Barrie's work through constant forgetfulness and self-centred behaviour.

Peter has a nonchalant, devil-may-care attitude, and is fearlessly cocky when it comes to putting himself in danger. Barrie writes that when Peter thought he was going to die on Marooners' Rock, he felt scared, yet he felt only one shudder run through him when any other person would have felt scared up until death. With his blithe attitude towards death, he says, "To die will be an awfully big adventure". He repeats this line as an adult in the film Hook (1991), during the battle with Hook near the film's climax. He then inverts the phrase at the film's very end claiming, "To live will be an awfully big adventure". This line was actually taken from the end of the last scene in the play, when the unseen and unnamed narrator ponders what might have been if Peter had stayed with Wendy, so that his cry might have become, "To live would be an awfully big adventure!", "but he can never quite get the hang of it".[11]

In some variations of the story and some spin-offs, Peter can also be quite selfish and arrogant. In the Disney adaptation (1953), Peter appears very judgemental and pompous (for instance, he calls the Lost Boys "blockheads", and when the Darling children say they should leave for home at once, he misunderstands their wish and angrily assumes they want to grow up). Nonetheless, he has a strong sense of justice and is always quick to assist those in danger.

In the 2003 live-action film, Peter Pan is sensitive about the subject of "growing up". When confronted by Hook about Wendy's growing up, marrying, and eventually "shutting the window" on Peter, he becomes very depressed and finally gives up on Wendy.

SOURCE

[Twinky]

Good one Chocky.

How can it not be edifying, to have falsehoods exposed for what they are? Even if they are not deliberate? Even more so, when they are deliberate falsehoods, designed to deceive, enslave, draw away from what is true?

Exposing falsehoods for what they are gives the person misled the opportunity to find a new basis, new premise, new way of thinking. The opportunity to examine everything built upon the falsehood.

It might be a horrible shock at first, to realise what you believe/d is untrue. It might leave you feeling bereft, confused, or angry. Fine. Now get out there and find out what is true.

Perhaps you were told by your parents that Santa Claus clambered down the chimney and left presents. Many children are told that. Does that mean they believe it all their lives? Unlikely. At some stage the truth will come out. So the deceived kids might be disappointed or angry for a while (even angry at their parents for lying to them) but in time most learn that it's a pleasure to make or choose something to give to another person. Isn't that edifying? Anybody who hits adulthood still believing in Santa Claus is likely to be regarded adversely by those around him.

So it is when we learn the truth behind the lies at TWI.

Especially when we do then learn the real truth of God's love for us.

[skyrider]

I want to get back to this topic for a bit, as this is a common criticism and argument seen around here. Taken to its very extreme, this type of logic is the same that people use to justify remaining in TWI or other damaging groups. The logic is only dwelling on that which "edifies", and excluding all else from your consideration. We don't want to talk about the "POP" stuff, or this other stuff like VP's sexual problems or plagiarism problems, because it's not edifying.

What this is typically known as in thinking circles is "censorship". People want to censor topics, discussions, etc. and as a framework for doing so use whether something "edifies" or not (or "profitable" as VP's word was). What is not typically seen is that this censorship behavior actually is language and behavior of control. What "edifies" or not is typically defined by someone in power, and used to silence the voice of those not in power. I have yet to see any form of democratic approach to defining what "edifies" or what is "profitable".

Also, this viewpoint is about the exact opposite of any Biblical logic. <snip>

And......imo, it's WORSE than censorship. At least with out-and-out censorship one knows that he is being cut off from access. The boundary line is stated as such.

What twi does.....is deception. In "representing" God, twi deliberately slants their teachings to herd the people to their different corrals. Remember.....The Renewed Mind is the key to power! See how its used in a past tense? Think on things that are good, and lovely, and acceptable, and infallible mogs, and ...... Twi has twisted the meaning of "renewing of your mind that you may PROVE what is that good, and acceptable and perfect will of God."

What twi has done.....I call the mog-doctrine. You are NOT allowed to look at, examine, investigate, discern, or determine for yourself what is evil according to the Scriptures. If it's evil THEY will tell you (haha). The life and choices of the man wierwille will always be off-limits. Their religion's foundation is based on HIM. Yeah, martindale might be quietly discarded with yesterday's trash, but THAT'S the evil. They don't allow people to inspect the putrid fruit. To do so is to be "living in the past." When someone is always dictating new mandates and restricting those from learning the past its Orwellian, its controlling.

Twi's perversion of Prov. 22:6.....Indoctrinate the children in the ways you'd have them go

and throughout life they will not depart from the mog-doctrine and pfal-slogans.

.

Edited November 30, 2013 by skyrider

[Modgellan]

Now that the forums are back up again, I have restored everyone's posting privileges. Please post responsibly everyone.

[excathedra]

did someone's irresponsibility bring the forums down? OMG

[dmiller]

I saw that the forums were down, but I didn't realize my posting privileges were gone too.

Nice to know they are back.