My3cents - In response to my statement, "That poison is bound up with the idea that we shouldn't fear God", you wrote, "...I think it was bound up in the idea that the bible is the word and/or will of God...".
I agree with you to some extent. I've been carefully reading the first few chapters of PFAL and BTMS.
Why was it important to Wierwille for the Bible to be "the Word and Will of God"? Because we have to KNOW that it's God's Will for us to have whatever we damn well please in order to operate the "law of believing". It was the KNOWLEDGE of "God's Word" that enabled us to crack the whip over Him.
To Wierwille "the Word and Will of God" was just another instrument for bending God's power to himself.
I think your observation is accurate, and goes right along with the thinking that has been formulating in my mind this past month.
If PFAL was your first and perhaps only exposure to supposed academic research then it might have a certain amount of appeal since it did appear to be organized and it was being taught by someone who called himself "The Teacher" and who also claimed to be a "Doctor". For many idealistic young people this was sufficient proof that VPW was some kind of research genius as well as a man of god. Most people weren't that curious about the origins of PFAL at least not to the extent that it led to any serious examination of VPW's credentials as a researcher and author.
Those that were curious about PFAL's origins were typically given vague answers or information designed to make it seem like you had a problem if you didn't accept that it was authored by God's will. That pitiful excuse for a Q&A session at the end of the class was just a show. I've seen lots of people pose questions for which there was no sufficient answer and the class leader would conclude by saying "Lets talk about this later" just to avoid admitting that they didn't have a good answer. Worse, I've seen class leaders suggest that some of the questions weren't even "good" so to avoid dealing with them. At the very worst I once saw a leader claim that a student's question had been answered in a certain session of PFAL ,when it clearly hadn't been, and that the student just needed to "work the syllabus" to realize it. But most present knew it was a massive dodge.
To me PFAl represents VPW's personal mythology but even then it was conceived and compiled using the ideas of others. His contribution to the mix was perhaps the packaging and presentation of the material. The fact that he had a lot of energy for its promotion doesn't change the reality that it was largely a combination of disparate sources that he hoped wouldn't be readily apparent to the starry-eyed, novitiate.
And he was successful at this at least initially.
Were I to give credit to VPW for anything it would be for being a hard working hustler who predated the self-improvemnt seminars of the 70s and personal gurus of the 80s. Were VPW to have launched his "ministry" in recent times I'm convinced he would be using DVDs , weekend retreats, and personal consultations ( a la Tony Robbins, Deepak Chopra) to get his message across. On the other hand were VPW to "go public" it would be apparent that his books weren't completely his own so maybe he would still try to keep it all underground.
Why was it important to Wierwille for the Bible to be "the Word and Will of God"? Because we have to KNOW that it's God's Will for us to have whatever we damn well please in order to operate the "law of believing". It was the KNOWLEDGE of "God's Word" that enabled us to crack the whip over Him.
Steve,
When I got out - after the start of the show down between Geer and LCM in the mid-80's a lot of my peers were wondering who to stand with. The way we phrased the question was along the lines of "Who has the closest stand to the -original- word of God? Because I want to stand for the word."
I took it one step further and asked myself "How did I know there even was an original word of god? and why did I think the bible had anything to do with it?" And my answer was that my only reason to belief that was that some preacher from Ohio had told me so in PFAL and that I had bought into it and adjusted my life accordingly.
So at that juncture I decided to look for other, external corroboration that there might be such a thing. I found I was more content not finding it and that life worked better for me with questions and mysteries about some of the greater truths than it did with the "answers" I was trying convince myself of. So in the dilema of who to follow I opted for "None of the above."
There's a funny quote that religion takes unanswerable questions and turns them into unquestionable answers. I'm happier with the former.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Lortz:
I think your observation is accurate, and goes right along with the thinking that has been formulating in my mind this past month.
Steve,
Since you agree with me, you are obviously correct :D--> :D--> :D--> Perhaps we should start a church together - or at least a mutual admiration society.
If PFAL was your first and perhaps only exposure to supposed academic research then it might have a certain amount of appeal since it did appear to be organized and it was being taught by someone who called himself "The Teacher" and who also claimed to be a "Doctor". For many idealistic young people this was sufficient proof that VPW was some kind of research genius as well as a man of god. Most people weren't that curious about the origins of PFAL at least not to the extent that it led to any serious examination of VPW's credentials as a researcher and author.
So true, diazbro! I vividly remember my brother and I pompously teaching my parents all the scholarly things we had learned and asserting our much more superior education in the Bible and research to my parents. I cringe now and realize the look on my daddy's face wasn't jealousy at all but real concern and fear of what his kids had gotten involved with.
I think this reveals why folks like me are thankful for VPW teaching PFAL. Let's say PFAL was all VPW's own private interpretation of scriptures. In that case one shouldn't be surprised when folks say they were helped by VPW, since PFAL helped them make sense of the bible like never before and have a strong (or stronger than before) belief system in the bible, in God, and all because of VPW own interpretation of scriptures.
Something to try to understand why many folks still think VPW was walking in the spirit when teaching PFAL, cause it helped them big time and they figure that it was God helping them through VPW.
Saying it was only VPW's mythology, or private interpretation, tends to give VPW even more credence for putting it together, not less, for those of us who find it very useful.
Just another reminder, it wasn't the critics of PFAL who help me understand and believe the bible, it was VPW and PFAL.
You guys who think you have all the answers now about everything twi weren't around giving answers when we needed help....VPW and PFAL was around.
Oldies, look where those *answeres* you recieved have taken you.
The best part of your life is behind you...forever stuck back in a time warp of the *good ole days* of twi.
Even though you now read the bible....you have to consider that the answeres your recieved are not necessarily ones that are healthy for you....or have served you well in life in the long run.
Saying it was only VPW's mythology, or private interpretation, tends to give VPW even more credence for putting it together, not less, for those of us who find it very useful.
Well he does get credit for "putting it (PFAL) together" but what he put togther wasn't his to begin with. It was a combination of Stiles, Leonard, Pillai, and 50s pop psychology so if anything he was a curator of the works of others though he certainly didn't mind accepting credit as the original author of the material even going so far as to author books in his name only which lifted material from most of the aforementioned sources. Of course VPW's books were self published to avoid the usual and customary editorial review processes.
The fact that you found/find it to be useful is something I won't attempt to talk you out of though I reject the concept that it was "god's will" or that the project was accomplished with rightful attribution to those sources. It also must be said that those sources are the works of other humans and as such don't necessarily represent some definitive , authoritative information on God , his will, or how we should be living. The total ommission of credits in PFAL is very telling in that it points all the attention to one person - one man - "The Teacher" when in reality the Way ministry was a collective work though no one would know that from viewing PFAL (or from reading the book of the same name).
In my view VPW was a glory hound looking to get the attention he felt due. He was a rouge preacher looking to make a name for himself and its a shame that he hijacked the works of others to do this. I dont think God would honor this - maybe you do. And again the material was presented in some fashion that seemed to make sense to someone but in my view it was always this arrangement of information that followed no natural sequence that I could readily discern - that doesn't mean that others couldn't but as I mentioned , PFAL was a faux academic work so it impressed enough people which was good enough to keep it running. If you tried to look under the covers and ask questions you quickly encountered double-talk and nasty looks if you were persistent. It was like all the PFAL info just fell out of the sky in syllabus format - and we know thats not true.
As an alleged researcher VPW would have been initimately familiar with the processes associated with documenting sources and insuring compliance with publication of research works. Of course at the esteemed Pike's Peak (whatever it was) Seminary perhaps they didn't teach those concepts. Actually they didn't teach a darn thing since there were no faculty. Still VPW had some legitimate divinity training and would have encountered information on theses processes - he just decided to exclude himself from those professional obligations possibly because he felt he could get away with it. And he did at least for a while. How many "holy spirit" experts are there any way ? Would anyone notice that a relatively obscure book
was plagiarized ? Probably not back then. No VPW gambled and to some extent won. He got what he wanted at least it seemed like he did.
But what is his legacy now ? that of an obscure cult leader at best.
If VPW's work were a motorcycle, I sort of look at it like he took various parts from various different brands of motorcycles, then put together from those parts his own brand.
Now he did say he took the parts from other brands. He didn't say he made all those parts all by himself. Were they stolen? Hmmmm. To the extent he paid for any of those teachings (parts), like B.G. Leonards class, like Bullingers books, like Stiles book, and whereever else he learned from, then they weren't stolen, they were bought and used.
I may ride a bike today without knowing where all these parts are from. Some may be made in U.S., some in Japan, some in Germany, whatever.
But go ahead, you folks who can't help but think of VPW nothing but a thief. All you seem to focus on is that the bike has stolen parts. You can dwell on that if you so choose, but I prefer to focus on riding the bike.
Looks to me like the motorcycle he built from all those various parts rode pretty good, and still does!
Were they stolen? Hmmmm. To the extent he paid for any of those teachings (parts), like B.G. Leonards class, like Bullingers books, like Stiles book, and whereever else he learned from, then they weren't stolen, they were bought and used.
LOL! Gawd, O.M., you made my morning! That's so blatantly absurd, I don't even know where to start. I guess you'd feel that because you bought a ticket to see "Gone With the Wind" once, that you are now entitled to show it whenever and whereever you want and charge whatever you'd like for admission? After all, you paid for it, right?
You elevate intellectual dishonesty to the level of an artform...
all you seem to care about and focus on is the thief and the theft.
No, I'd be more than happy to talk about the vapidness, pointlessness, or just plain error of the content as well, if you'd like. But, we've covered that same ground many times before, no?
... vapidness, pointlessness, or just plain error of the content...
George you're correct we've been through all this, but wouldn't it be profitable to learn something that would motivate to change, rather than hearing negatives all the time?
If you think PFAL was all trash, tell me something that's profitable to take its place. Do you have any hope in life?
I'll gladly chuck it out the window if something better comes along and makes more sense.
But go ahead, you folks who can't help but think of VPW nothing but a thief. All you seem to focus on is that the bike has stolen parts. You can dwell on that if you so choose, but I prefer to focus on riding the bike.
So first you admit that there were "stolen" parts which is apparently accetpable to you. So maybe John 10:10 should really be saying "The thief cometh not but for to steal the works of others and combine them into PFAL but thats cool".
In terms of focusing on "riding the bike" that must be one shaky bike. I don't want to ride it. Again, the sources that VPW lifted have never been proven to be error free or representative of God's will so I reject the idea that even those stolen concepts and ideas from other authors were that "right on" anyway.
PFAL was some class I took way back when and is a *miniscule* part of my so called "religious training". If it jumpstarted your spirtual life then thats cool but it didn't mine. In fact PFAL caused my spiritual life to flatline though getting out of TWI BS helped revive it.
Jeezus, what did PFAL do for anyone? It made all sorts of promises, more harmony in the home, gives a purpose to life, yada, yada.
But what did it really deliver? Did graduates of "The Class" actually live more abundant lives? You couldn't prove it by me. Sure, it made us feel good for the moment, while we're getting the mental massage, but in real life it was utterly ineffectual. "Believing" didn't bring about anything other than disappointment and feelings of inadequacy because we weren't "believing" enough.
So my advice? Find an interest in life and pursue it. Cultivate, learn it, grow it, do it. But when it comes to dedicating one's life to upholding vague "principles" and "keys" at the detriment of doing what you'd really like to do - and all the while giving your life's resources to a bunch of jerkoffs who haven't done a goddam thing to earn it - I'd say forget it...
So first you admit that there were "stolen" parts which is apparently accetpable to you. So maybe John 10:10 should really be saying "The thief cometh not but for to steal the works of others and combine them into PFAL but thats cool".
The thief in that verse is satan, and it goes to show where your head is at to compare VPW with satan.
Diazbro, your condemnation and demonization of everything that is twi does nothing to enhance my belief system or change my mind, but I'll be happy to hear what so revived you from twi that's so exciting. I'm all ears.
quote:
"Believing" didn't bring about anything other than disappointment and feelings of inadequacy because we weren't "believing" enough.
oh George, you're heavy on the cynicism, but lite on the beef. Believing in Jesus Christ is the only hope for man, at least that's what I've found. Nothing else comes close. If you find something that's more promising, more hopeful, let me know.
The thief in that verse is satan, and it goes to show where your head is at to compare VPW with satan.
>>
It was a joke but you knew that. Don't misdirect things to get it off track. VPW stole from the works of others and apparently that is cool with you. Its not with me. Thiefs , intellectual or otherwise, are still thiefs.
You cannot buy,borrow a book and integrate its text into your book or "class" and sell it. You can't even paraphrase sections and get away with it. Its illegal and at a real university will get you fired and discredited. Additionally its not even certain that the material he stole is "god breathed" or "error free" or in anyway represents "God's Will".
Oldies man said:
I'll be happy to hear what so revived you from twi that's so exciting.
>>
Oh thats easy. I left TWI and got a "real" life.
That act alone allowed me to escape the contrived BS environment of TWI and its so called "research". Just leaving the VPW worship
scene cleared my head up. I don't need some hopelessly legalistic, neo-fascist movement to give order to my life.
Oldiesman said:
>>
I'm all ears.
Oh perhaps but they continue to remain closed to any and all ideas that are critical of VPW, PFAL, and TWI. PFAL was cobbled together using the sources of others and passed off as the original work of an outcast,rogue preacher whose intense desire for recognition and glory outweighed any remaining genuine humility he might have ever had.
It was a joke but you knew that. Don't misdirect things to get it off track. VPW stole from the works of others and apparently that is cool with you. Its not with me.
Diazbro, I'm impressed it's not ok with you. Really.
Diazbro, I'm impressed it's not ok with you. Really.
>>
Thanks. That should be sufficient proof then that not all exWay folks have the loose moral and ethical codes of VPW. More interesting is how and why anyone would think what VPW did to be okay.
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Steve Lortz
My3cents - In response to my statement, "That poison is bound up with the idea that we shouldn't fear God", you wrote, "...I think it was bound up in the idea that the bible is the word and/or will of God...".
I agree with you to some extent. I've been carefully reading the first few chapters of PFAL and BTMS.
Why was it important to Wierwille for the Bible to be "the Word and Will of God"? Because we have to KNOW that it's God's Will for us to have whatever we damn well please in order to operate the "law of believing". It was the KNOWLEDGE of "God's Word" that enabled us to crack the whip over Him.
To Wierwille "the Word and Will of God" was just another instrument for bending God's power to himself.
I think your observation is accurate, and goes right along with the thinking that has been formulating in my mind this past month.
Love,
Steve
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diazbro
If PFAL was your first and perhaps only exposure to supposed academic research then it might have a certain amount of appeal since it did appear to be organized and it was being taught by someone who called himself "The Teacher" and who also claimed to be a "Doctor". For many idealistic young people this was sufficient proof that VPW was some kind of research genius as well as a man of god. Most people weren't that curious about the origins of PFAL at least not to the extent that it led to any serious examination of VPW's credentials as a researcher and author.
Those that were curious about PFAL's origins were typically given vague answers or information designed to make it seem like you had a problem if you didn't accept that it was authored by God's will. That pitiful excuse for a Q&A session at the end of the class was just a show. I've seen lots of people pose questions for which there was no sufficient answer and the class leader would conclude by saying "Lets talk about this later" just to avoid admitting that they didn't have a good answer. Worse, I've seen class leaders suggest that some of the questions weren't even "good" so to avoid dealing with them. At the very worst I once saw a leader claim that a student's question had been answered in a certain session of PFAL ,when it clearly hadn't been, and that the student just needed to "work the syllabus" to realize it. But most present knew it was a massive dodge.
To me PFAl represents VPW's personal mythology but even then it was conceived and compiled using the ideas of others. His contribution to the mix was perhaps the packaging and presentation of the material. The fact that he had a lot of energy for its promotion doesn't change the reality that it was largely a combination of disparate sources that he hoped wouldn't be readily apparent to the starry-eyed, novitiate.
And he was successful at this at least initially.
Were I to give credit to VPW for anything it would be for being a hard working hustler who predated the self-improvemnt seminars of the 70s and personal gurus of the 80s. Were VPW to have launched his "ministry" in recent times I'm convinced he would be using DVDs , weekend retreats, and personal consultations ( a la Tony Robbins, Deepak Chopra) to get his message across. On the other hand were VPW to "go public" it would be apparent that his books weren't completely his own so maybe he would still try to keep it all underground.
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My3Cents
Steve,
When I got out - after the start of the show down between Geer and LCM in the mid-80's a lot of my peers were wondering who to stand with. The way we phrased the question was along the lines of "Who has the closest stand to the -original- word of God? Because I want to stand for the word."
I took it one step further and asked myself "How did I know there even was an original word of god? and why did I think the bible had anything to do with it?" And my answer was that my only reason to belief that was that some preacher from Ohio had told me so in PFAL and that I had bought into it and adjusted my life accordingly.
So at that juncture I decided to look for other, external corroboration that there might be such a thing. I found I was more content not finding it and that life worked better for me with questions and mysteries about some of the greater truths than it did with the "answers" I was trying convince myself of. So in the dilema of who to follow I opted for "None of the above."
There's a funny quote that religion takes unanswerable questions and turns them into unquestionable answers. I'm happier with the former.
Steve,
Since you agree with me, you are obviously correct
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> Perhaps we should start a church together - or at least a mutual admiration society.
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Belle
So true, diazbro! I vividly remember my brother and I pompously teaching my parents all the scholarly things we had learned and asserting our much more superior education in the Bible and research to my parents. I cringe now and realize the look on my daddy's face wasn't jealousy at all but real concern and fear of what his kids had gotten involved with.
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oldiesman
I think this reveals why folks like me are thankful for VPW teaching PFAL. Let's say PFAL was all VPW's own private interpretation of scriptures. In that case one shouldn't be surprised when folks say they were helped by VPW, since PFAL helped them make sense of the bible like never before and have a strong (or stronger than before) belief system in the bible, in God, and all because of VPW own interpretation of scriptures.
Something to try to understand why many folks still think VPW was walking in the spirit when teaching PFAL, cause it helped them big time and they figure that it was God helping them through VPW.
Saying it was only VPW's mythology, or private interpretation, tends to give VPW even more credence for putting it together, not less, for those of us who find it very useful.
Just another reminder, it wasn't the critics of PFAL who help me understand and believe the bible, it was VPW and PFAL.
You guys who think you have all the answers now about everything twi weren't around giving answers when we needed help....VPW and PFAL was around.
Before that, I didn't even pick the bible up.
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rascal
Oldies, look where those *answeres* you recieved have taken you.
The best part of your life is behind you...forever stuck back in a time warp of the *good ole days* of twi.
Even though you now read the bible....you have to consider that the answeres your recieved are not necessarily ones that are healthy for you....or have served you well in life in the long run.
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oldiesman
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Raf
Well, I would have done it, except, you see,
I was 2.
Forgive my lateness.
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oldiesman
Too late now, sorry.
Hey where'd M.D.V. go?
Come back M.D.V., come back...
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George Aar
Maybe the good folks at WayWorld have helped him get re-educated?
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Raf
Heavens, no, George. That's something the old TWI would do. Not the new, kinder, gentler TWI.
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diazbro
Oldiesman said:
Saying it was only VPW's mythology, or private interpretation, tends to give VPW even more credence for putting it together, not less, for those of us who find it very useful.
Well he does get credit for "putting it (PFAL) together" but what he put togther wasn't his to begin with. It was a combination of Stiles, Leonard, Pillai, and 50s pop psychology so if anything he was a curator of the works of others though he certainly didn't mind accepting credit as the original author of the material even going so far as to author books in his name only which lifted material from most of the aforementioned sources. Of course VPW's books were self published to avoid the usual and customary editorial review processes.
The fact that you found/find it to be useful is something I won't attempt to talk you out of though I reject the concept that it was "god's will" or that the project was accomplished with rightful attribution to those sources. It also must be said that those sources are the works of other humans and as such don't necessarily represent some definitive , authoritative information on God , his will, or how we should be living. The total ommission of credits in PFAL is very telling in that it points all the attention to one person - one man - "The Teacher" when in reality the Way ministry was a collective work though no one would know that from viewing PFAL (or from reading the book of the same name).
In my view VPW was a glory hound looking to get the attention he felt due. He was a rouge preacher looking to make a name for himself and its a shame that he hijacked the works of others to do this. I dont think God would honor this - maybe you do. And again the material was presented in some fashion that seemed to make sense to someone but in my view it was always this arrangement of information that followed no natural sequence that I could readily discern - that doesn't mean that others couldn't but as I mentioned , PFAL was a faux academic work so it impressed enough people which was good enough to keep it running. If you tried to look under the covers and ask questions you quickly encountered double-talk and nasty looks if you were persistent. It was like all the PFAL info just fell out of the sky in syllabus format - and we know thats not true.
As an alleged researcher VPW would have been initimately familiar with the processes associated with documenting sources and insuring compliance with publication of research works. Of course at the esteemed Pike's Peak (whatever it was) Seminary perhaps they didn't teach those concepts. Actually they didn't teach a darn thing since there were no faculty. Still VPW had some legitimate divinity training and would have encountered information on theses processes - he just decided to exclude himself from those professional obligations possibly because he felt he could get away with it. And he did at least for a while. How many "holy spirit" experts are there any way ? Would anyone notice that a relatively obscure book
was plagiarized ? Probably not back then. No VPW gambled and to some extent won. He got what he wanted at least it seemed like he did.
But what is his legacy now ? that of an obscure cult leader at best.
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oldiesman
If VPW's work were a motorcycle, I sort of look at it like he took various parts from various different brands of motorcycles, then put together from those parts his own brand.
Now he did say he took the parts from other brands. He didn't say he made all those parts all by himself. Were they stolen? Hmmmm. To the extent he paid for any of those teachings (parts), like B.G. Leonards class, like Bullingers books, like Stiles book, and whereever else he learned from, then they weren't stolen, they were bought and used.
I may ride a bike today without knowing where all these parts are from. Some may be made in U.S., some in Japan, some in Germany, whatever.
But go ahead, you folks who can't help but think of VPW nothing but a thief. All you seem to focus on is that the bike has stolen parts. You can dwell on that if you so choose, but I prefer to focus on riding the bike.
Looks to me like the motorcycle he built from all those various parts rode pretty good, and still does!
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George Aar
LOL! Gawd, O.M., you made my morning! That's so blatantly absurd, I don't even know where to start. I guess you'd feel that because you bought a ticket to see "Gone With the Wind" once, that you are now entitled to show it whenever and whereever you want and charge whatever you'd like for admission? After all, you paid for it, right?
You elevate intellectual dishonesty to the level of an artform...
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oldiesman
Well, I'd say it's an adaptation of Gone with the Wind.
But let's say you're correct. As I said before, all you seem to care about and focus on is the thief and the theft.
You don't appreciate the goodness or usefulness of the film, or not even any of its many scenes.
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George Aar
No, I'd be more than happy to talk about the vapidness, pointlessness, or just plain error of the content as well, if you'd like. But, we've covered that same ground many times before, no?
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oldiesman
George you're correct we've been through all this, but wouldn't it be profitable to learn something that would motivate to change, rather than hearing negatives all the time?
If you think PFAL was all trash, tell me something that's profitable to take its place. Do you have any hope in life?
I'll gladly chuck it out the window if something better comes along and makes more sense.
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diazbro
So first you admit that there were "stolen" parts which is apparently accetpable to you. So maybe John 10:10 should really be saying "The thief cometh not but for to steal the works of others and combine them into PFAL but thats cool".
In terms of focusing on "riding the bike" that must be one shaky bike. I don't want to ride it. Again, the sources that VPW lifted have never been proven to be error free or representative of God's will so I reject the idea that even those stolen concepts and ideas from other authors were that "right on" anyway.
PFAL was some class I took way back when and is a *miniscule* part of my so called "religious training". If it jumpstarted your spirtual life then thats cool but it didn't mine. In fact PFAL caused my spiritual life to flatline though getting out of TWI BS helped revive it.
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George Aar
Something better, something productive?
How about, any goddam thing?
Jeezus, what did PFAL do for anyone? It made all sorts of promises, more harmony in the home, gives a purpose to life, yada, yada.
But what did it really deliver? Did graduates of "The Class" actually live more abundant lives? You couldn't prove it by me. Sure, it made us feel good for the moment, while we're getting the mental massage, but in real life it was utterly ineffectual. "Believing" didn't bring about anything other than disappointment and feelings of inadequacy because we weren't "believing" enough.
So my advice? Find an interest in life and pursue it. Cultivate, learn it, grow it, do it. But when it comes to dedicating one's life to upholding vague "principles" and "keys" at the detriment of doing what you'd really like to do - and all the while giving your life's resources to a bunch of jerkoffs who haven't done a goddam thing to earn it - I'd say forget it...
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oldiesman
Diazbro, your condemnation and demonization of everything that is twi does nothing to enhance my belief system or change my mind, but I'll be happy to hear what so revived you from twi that's so exciting. I'm all ears.
oh George, you're heavy on the cynicism, but lite on the beef. Believing in Jesus Christ is the only hope for man, at least that's what I've found. Nothing else comes close. If you find something that's more promising, more hopeful, let me know.Link to comment
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diazbro
OldiesMan said:
The thief in that verse is satan, and it goes to show where your head is at to compare VPW with satan.
>>
It was a joke but you knew that. Don't misdirect things to get it off track. VPW stole from the works of others and apparently that is cool with you. Its not with me. Thiefs , intellectual or otherwise, are still thiefs.
You cannot buy,borrow a book and integrate its text into your book or "class" and sell it. You can't even paraphrase sections and get away with it. Its illegal and at a real university will get you fired and discredited. Additionally its not even certain that the material he stole is "god breathed" or "error free" or in anyway represents "God's Will".
Oldies man said:
I'll be happy to hear what so revived you from twi that's so exciting.
>>
Oh thats easy. I left TWI and got a "real" life.
That act alone allowed me to escape the contrived BS environment of TWI and its so called "research". Just leaving the VPW worship
scene cleared my head up. I don't need some hopelessly legalistic, neo-fascist movement to give order to my life.
Oldiesman said:
>>
I'm all ears.
Oh perhaps but they continue to remain closed to any and all ideas that are critical of VPW, PFAL, and TWI. PFAL was cobbled together using the sources of others and passed off as the original work of an outcast,rogue preacher whose intense desire for recognition and glory outweighed any remaining genuine humility he might have ever had.
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Belle
OM, there's a paper I posted in the Doctrinal section on PFAL that I'm interested in hearing your viewpoint on.
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oldiesman
Diazbro, I'm impressed it's not ok with you. Really.
You deserve a prize.
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diazbro
Oldiesman said:
Diazbro, I'm impressed it's not ok with you. Really.
>>
Thanks. That should be sufficient proof then that not all exWay folks have the loose moral and ethical codes of VPW. More interesting is how and why anyone would think what VPW did to be okay.
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