That is why we lead twigs and ran PFAL classes, that is why we still run PFAL classes [whenever we have people in our fellowship who desire it].
I am not convinced that it is 'perfect', nor am I convinced that anything is. Other than perhaps that 'perfect pure' Word from God as He intended us to hold, but that has since gone through multiple-translations and copies.
:-)
I do think that it can be a really good starting point though.
None of your poll choice seem to apply to an objective evaluation system. They all seem to be all or nothing choices.
I evaluate PFAL by both internal and external criteria. And by experiencial criteria as in: Does it deliver as prommised?
Sure PFAL has some good stuff in it, but it is hardly unique earth shattering stuff.
However, as a basis for a complete theological system, or as a roadmap for life, PFAL fails miserably. Too many major flaws (e.g. "Law of Believing") which by itself is basis for rejecting PFAL as a whole system.
I have a couple of major problems with PFAL, first "law of believing" as suggesting that everything that happens in your life is because of your believing, either positive or negative. Wise folks know that's not true.
Also have a problem with "tithing for prosperity". Prosperity doesn't hinge on tithing.
Other than those two, PFAL has lots of goodies, eternal truths that we believers can retain to greatly help us through life.
Without going into critiquing PFAL, I think you have to look at the so-called "keys," which by your inference have stood the test of the ages. Sorry, they fall short a bit.
The first premise of all our "keys" is that the bible is complete and perfect, God-breathed consistency from Genesis to Revelation. That forces us to throw out all (disregard and/or deny) inconsistencies from the get-go, or to perform absurd linguistic contortions to force agreement between them.
The first responsibility of God's children must be to ask "What is the truth, and how do I know it." To proclaim at the outset that the bible is God's Word is inherently self-delusional. The truth is what it is, regardless of our desire to believe something. If God is truth, the first responsibility of God's children must be to ask "What is the truth, and how do I know it."
I think the bible itself warns against the worship of words, even its own words, as scripture without guidance of the "spirit" is of no value. That guidance is not particularly reliable, if consistency within the church is any measure.
I don't believe in the law of believing the way it's taught in that class. Everyday life experiences will tell you that it's wrong. When it doesn't work the way it was taught, TWI throws in all kinds of other caveats to explain why it doesn't work "in this case". It works or it doesn't. IMO, it doesn't. It doesn't take any of those "keys" to come to that conclusions.
IF the administrations are correct then why does TWI only use illustrations from the OT to enforce some of the legalism they impose on people? (e.g. things that aren't covered in the epistles but are areas where TWI wants to manipulate people.) It doesn't take using those "keys" to see the inconsistencies between what they say and what they do.
I'll think on some more. A certain poster on here has pretty much soured me on any PFAL discussions and should he decide to jump on this thread I will disappear from it, but happily continue any discussions in private topics or by e-mail.
I have a couple of major problems with PFAL, first "law of believing" as suggesting that everything that happens in your life is because of your believing, either positive or negative. Wise folks know that's not true.
Also have a problem with "tithing for prosperity". Prosperity doesn't hinge on tithing.
Other than those two, PFAL has lots of goodies, eternal truths that we believers can retain to greatly help us through life.
Do you still speak in tongues?
I was going to reply "how could I not" but I suppose that's possible. But yes.
As for the tithe - it's one of those yes / no things. If I was teaching it, I'd approach it different. Dr. Wierwille got people to the same basic goal and it was to their benefit if they did it for God.
First, God can give us more than we can handle on the tithe alone. No need to exceed it for just financial increase. The tithe is supposed to handle that. The Word shows that it is available for leadership to live within the tithe. But I believe we can add above if we like, or if there is a special need, according to what Paul wrote. Once and again to his need.
The old testament...let me look at is this way first...just common horse sense tells us that if an overseer is to dominate his or her life serving God's people in a capacity beyond just producing products or services, that person needs food, shelter and clothing.
We should just out of kindness and love pay and support their need without a commandment. That common sense spans all time. To care for our neighbor never needed a written verse for it to be true or a need.
Now, the deal is...the Word teaches that what we ask in prayer believing, we can recieve.
And people that believe God should not have to be asked to tithe.
As a believers, I should already strive to believe that God will meet my need...and, simultaneously, if I'm not an illogical and selfish brat, I will want to kindly share my wealth with believers that minister in a capacity that's burdensome if they have to work a secular job with it.
And that is not a burden on me, because God has taught I can receive more than I can recieve. So why not give some of it away anyway since it's more than I can receive?
So, if I really am believing, then my natural reaction will be that I am also tithing.
The equality is not from a mathematical standpoint, but practically and figuratively it may as well be.
So as minor as the point is, I'd say Dr. Wierwille conveyed the right intent of God's will.
For me, I'd just teach it in a different fashion.
Also, what amazes me, and I wish I had every bank statement from the last 20 years (but what for, I know it) - whenever I tithed my proserity was peaked and when I backed off, the prosperity dipped and problems rose.
But the statements are useless. No point. Instead of people expecting to be proved that the tithe should be done, they should arrange their thoughts to care for people and and others that serve. Then they would just share out of kindness and common sense.
I don't need believing to be a "law" to understand the importance and value of faith.
I do not need to be compelled, incorrectly, to tithe to understand the importance of giving, or the Biblical admonition to give generously.
I view PFAL's keys independently of PFAL. "Read the verse, read the context, see where it's been used before" can be applied to that which is taught in PFAL. PFAL teaches dispensationalism. Does the Bible? PFAL teaches that believing is a law that works for saint and sinner alike. Does the Bible? PFAL teaches that fear is believing in reverse and what you fear will come to pass. Does the Bible?
I don't critique PFAL. Took it about sixty too many times. Read the materials for hours on end. Years and years- don't hate, don't agree with it all, got some good out of it, but I just don't want any more. I'm not an "unbeliever"- still read the bible and "fellowship with believers"- just nice to be able to do so without Doc Vic's accent echoing in my head..
Well lets see. the so called law of believing was taken from 50s pop psychology, grafted on top of some bible verses, and rolled out in PFAL as one of the foundational concepts of PFAL. Obviously the teaching was flawed so one wonders if the "foundation" of the class is flawed then what about the rest of it ? Okay well ponder that one in your spare time..
We now know that there are near identities between the "Works" of VPW and those of Leonard and Stiles both of whom published works before VPW. In short VPW plagiarized the works of others. For those not familiar or concerned with standard publishing practices, especially as they relate to academic research, this is an extremely serious offense which typically results in expulsion from any recognized institution of higher learning. Okay well that aside - given that the HS material was taken from someone else , as were the sections on sonship rights, then what does that leave
in PFAL that truly was VPW's ? His horrible jokes ? His claim that he saw snow ?
To answer the question posed in the start of the thread - PFAL collapses because it was organized around a series of teachings from disparate sources with very little of that material originating with VPW. The lack of continuity in PFAL has always been there. I asked the question frequently as to how he selected what to include and how to sequence it. Of course I was assured that it was all directed by God's will so I should rest assured that it was for the best.
I see no particular "logical" flow in PFAL
despite VPW's claims to "mathematical accuracy" and "scientific precision". What did he know about sceintific precision anyway except that it sounded good when he was teaching. No. PFAL was a bunch of separate (many unoriginal) teachings lumped together to give the illusion of some magic path to enlightenment. To many the fact that he went to so much trouble to film it and package it seems sufficient proof that it must be divine in conception else why would he bother ? Sounds odd doesn't it but I know many ex-Wayfers who think like this.
I don't bother. PFAL has no real relevence to my life. There are SOOOOOO many more important things to do with my time. Love the woman of my dreams, my kids, learn something valuable (as opposed to debunking something of no use to me), etc. I'd rather do almost anything else.
Some might say "then why are you 'wasting' time here?" Here, I connect with people. That's cool. The good that I got from TWI was from meeting good people, for the most part. That enhanced my life, often despite TWI itself. Personally, I slept through PFAL most of the time. Watching VPs eyebrows go up and down with his exaggerated facial expresssions was like watching a cartoon preacher. ZZzzz...
Ok, truth be told: I find this whole topic too funny. Do people still take VP and his stolen classes this seriously anymore? Yikes! I don't if I should laugh or cry!
JT, why YES they do! :D--> The class and the collaterals have been the foundation of pretty much all the teachings in TWI the past few years. They all tie of course to giving, outreach, obedience and now "sticking with the ministry that taught you the word", but they are very much adhering to PFAL and the plagarized works of vpw.
If I remember my urban legends correctly, back in the early 20th century, young women were employed to paint glow-in-the-dark numbers on the faces of clocks, using radium in the pigment. These young ladies would use their tongues to repoint their brushes while they worked, and so ingested harmful quantities of radioactive material.
Say one of those women delivered a baby and breast-fed it. There would be radioactive contamination in her milk. She would be nurturing her child, yet at the same time, unknowingly, poisoning her baby.
Was there milk in PFAL? Some might say so. I did for a number of decades. But there was also a colorless, odorless, tasteless poison that I'm only now becoming aware of.
That poison is bound up with the idea that we shouldn't fear God. Instead of teaching us WHY and HOW to fear God, PFAL taught us a pseudo-technique for manipulating God.
I don't use PFAL's "keys" for critiquing it. Standard research and logic suffices.
As far as thinking there was anything good in it? Maybe for some people. If it makes you happy, that's fine with me. I'll just duck when the debates begin.
Personally, I think I would have been better off never taking the darn thing. At one time I bought into it, but since I've added some pertinent books to my reading time over the last three years, which have encouraged me to think about things, not just accept them, I've pretty much tossed the whole class.
Yep.. that IS the problem! At least for some of us. You can debate, research, do all the mathematical accuracy and scientific precision stuff to it and still not convince people that have somehow broken out of the loop, or have gotten off the running wheel for that matter.
I've seen hamsters run the wheels for hours on end, day and night- still did not convince me that that was the right thing for me to do in life.
Personally, I think I would have been better off never taking the darn thing. At one time I bought into it, but since I've added some pertinent books to my reading time over the last three years, which have encouraged me to think about things, not just accept them, I've pretty much tossed the whole class.
Isn't it AMAZING what you can see and start to realize and understand once you actually look at what's "out there"? They say there's nothing better "out there", but they haven't even looked "out there" so how do they know and why did I take their word for it for so long? -->
Was there milk in PFAL? Some might say so. I did for a number of decades. But there was also a colorless, odorless, tasteless poison that I'm only now becoming aware of.
That poison is bound up with the idea that we shouldn't fear God. Instead of teaching us WHY and HOW to fear God, PFAL taught us a pseudo-technique for manipulating God.
Steve, I'm not one to say there was milk in PFAL. But I do think there was poison there. However I think it was bound up in the idea that the bible is the word and/or will of God, or even that there is such a thing at all.
If you reject that notion (which never occured to me till I took PFAL and now I see as perhaps the most destructive idea humankind has come up with) then the whole of the pfal collapses.
the thing that always got my goat about these classes was that they were always being used as sort of an initiation to some secret club of GRADS of which you too can join if you want to be enlightened and fully instructed or whatever
one time i got somebody mad at me for teaching a person how to speak in tounges before he was done with the class but after seeing how happy the guy was the first person wasn't so mad at me anymore she even apologized to me for getting mad at me in the first place so who says there are no happy endings in TWI?
yes it's true i really loved most of the people i met in TWI the only ones i ever had a problem with were the real hard-liners types
but in all fairness i think i was probably a nightmare for those same hard-line folks too
Oh yeah.. sure remember that! I remember folks "miraculously" finding extra cash in their checking accounts. They wrote out some for cash, paid for the class, and low and behold, several checks happened to be just a little late coming in. Must've been da adversary, stealing that "increase" out of their bank accounts..
Happened more than once, at least that I witnessed.
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Galen
I generally agree with most things in PFAL.
That is why we lead twigs and ran PFAL classes, that is why we still run PFAL classes [whenever we have people in our fellowship who desire it].
I am not convinced that it is 'perfect', nor am I convinced that anything is. Other than perhaps that 'perfect pure' Word from God as He intended us to hold, but that has since gone through multiple-translations and copies.
:-)
I do think that it can be a really good starting point though.
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WordWolf
Depends on my goals.
When trying to see if it delivers what it promises, usually, I evaluate
it based on its internal testimony.
When trying to see how it rates among Christian stuff, usually, I evaluate it
base on external criteria.
BTW,
we have had many, many, MANY discussions on this subject, both general
and specific.
We have discussed how vpw claimed he got the thing, and how he actually got it.
We discussed individual doctrines and keys taught in it. We discussed
individual examples used in it.
We've also come to differences of opinions on it.
A minority think the whole thing is worthless, except as a sales device
for an MLM (MultiLevel Marketing scheme, like Amway.)
A tiny handful (at most) decided it replaced the Bible entirely.
(Despite all the "this is a class on KEYS" stuff.)
Most people fall somewhere closer to the middle of the spectrum,
and think that it has merit in a small portion, medium portion,
or in the majority of what it teaches.
Take a look around.
Many of the discussions predate this messageboard, some were back in the 1990s.
Some of the comments are from people who felt their lives were hijacked.
Some of the comments are quite insightful.
Some of the comments are brilliant.
(Mine are brilliant.
--> )
Try and appreciate each on its own merits.
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Goey
Mdvalden,
Welcome to Greasespot.
None of your poll choice seem to apply to an objective evaluation system. They all seem to be all or nothing choices.
I evaluate PFAL by both internal and external criteria. And by experiencial criteria as in: Does it deliver as prommised?
Sure PFAL has some good stuff in it, but it is hardly unique earth shattering stuff.
However, as a basis for a complete theological system, or as a roadmap for life, PFAL fails miserably. Too many major flaws (e.g. "Law of Believing") which by itself is basis for rejecting PFAL as a whole system.
Goey
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oldiesman
M.D.V.:
I have a couple of major problems with PFAL, first "law of believing" as suggesting that everything that happens in your life is because of your believing, either positive or negative. Wise folks know that's not true.
Also have a problem with "tithing for prosperity". Prosperity doesn't hinge on tithing.
Other than those two, PFAL has lots of goodies, eternal truths that we believers can retain to greatly help us through life.
Do you still speak in tongues?
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satori001
This is a great question on the surface.
Without going into critiquing PFAL, I think you have to look at the so-called "keys," which by your inference have stood the test of the ages. Sorry, they fall short a bit.
The first premise of all our "keys" is that the bible is complete and perfect, God-breathed consistency from Genesis to Revelation. That forces us to throw out all (disregard and/or deny) inconsistencies from the get-go, or to perform absurd linguistic contortions to force agreement between them.
The first responsibility of God's children must be to ask "What is the truth, and how do I know it." To proclaim at the outset that the bible is God's Word is inherently self-delusional. The truth is what it is, regardless of our desire to believe something. If God is truth, the first responsibility of God's children must be to ask "What is the truth, and how do I know it."
I think the bible itself warns against the worship of words, even its own words, as scripture without guidance of the "spirit" is of no value. That guidance is not particularly reliable, if consistency within the church is any measure.
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Belle
How about a just plain common sense option?
I don't believe in the law of believing the way it's taught in that class. Everyday life experiences will tell you that it's wrong. When it doesn't work the way it was taught, TWI throws in all kinds of other caveats to explain why it doesn't work "in this case". It works or it doesn't. IMO, it doesn't. It doesn't take any of those "keys" to come to that conclusions.
IF the administrations are correct then why does TWI only use illustrations from the OT to enforce some of the legalism they impose on people? (e.g. things that aren't covered in the epistles but are areas where TWI wants to manipulate people.) It doesn't take using those "keys" to see the inconsistencies between what they say and what they do.
I'll think on some more. A certain poster on here has pretty much soured me on any PFAL discussions and should he decide to jump on this thread I will disappear from it, but happily continue any discussions in private topics or by e-mail.
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mdvaden
I was going to reply "how could I not" but I suppose that's possible. But yes.
As for the tithe - it's one of those yes / no things. If I was teaching it, I'd approach it different. Dr. Wierwille got people to the same basic goal and it was to their benefit if they did it for God.
First, God can give us more than we can handle on the tithe alone. No need to exceed it for just financial increase. The tithe is supposed to handle that. The Word shows that it is available for leadership to live within the tithe. But I believe we can add above if we like, or if there is a special need, according to what Paul wrote. Once and again to his need.
The old testament...let me look at is this way first...just common horse sense tells us that if an overseer is to dominate his or her life serving God's people in a capacity beyond just producing products or services, that person needs food, shelter and clothing.
We should just out of kindness and love pay and support their need without a commandment. That common sense spans all time. To care for our neighbor never needed a written verse for it to be true or a need.
Now, the deal is...the Word teaches that what we ask in prayer believing, we can recieve.
And people that believe God should not have to be asked to tithe.
As a believers, I should already strive to believe that God will meet my need...and, simultaneously, if I'm not an illogical and selfish brat, I will want to kindly share my wealth with believers that minister in a capacity that's burdensome if they have to work a secular job with it.
And that is not a burden on me, because God has taught I can receive more than I can recieve. So why not give some of it away anyway since it's more than I can receive?
So, if I really am believing, then my natural reaction will be that I am also tithing.
The equality is not from a mathematical standpoint, but practically and figuratively it may as well be.
So as minor as the point is, I'd say Dr. Wierwille conveyed the right intent of God's will.
For me, I'd just teach it in a different fashion.
Also, what amazes me, and I wish I had every bank statement from the last 20 years (but what for, I know it) - whenever I tithed my proserity was peaked and when I backed off, the prosperity dipped and problems rose.
But the statements are useless. No point. Instead of people expecting to be proved that the tithe should be done, they should arrange their thoughts to care for people and and others that serve. Then they would just share out of kindness and common sense.
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Raf
I don't need believing to be a "law" to understand the importance and value of faith.
I do not need to be compelled, incorrectly, to tithe to understand the importance of giving, or the Biblical admonition to give generously.
I view PFAL's keys independently of PFAL. "Read the verse, read the context, see where it's been used before" can be applied to that which is taught in PFAL. PFAL teaches dispensationalism. Does the Bible? PFAL teaches that believing is a law that works for saint and sinner alike. Does the Bible? PFAL teaches that fear is believing in reverse and what you fear will come to pass. Does the Bible?
Welcome to GS, MD.
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Ham
Greetings, likewise.
I don't critique PFAL. Took it about sixty too many times. Read the materials for hours on end. Years and years- don't hate, don't agree with it all, got some good out of it, but I just don't want any more. I'm not an "unbeliever"- still read the bible and "fellowship with believers"- just nice to be able to do so without Doc Vic's accent echoing in my head..
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Oakspear
When I first began critically examining PFAL and WayAP I used PFAL methods (the "keys") to see if it could stand up to its own standards.
Later I applied outside criteria to my scrutiny.
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diazbro
Well lets see. the so called law of believing was taken from 50s pop psychology, grafted on top of some bible verses, and rolled out in PFAL as one of the foundational concepts of PFAL. Obviously the teaching was flawed so one wonders if the "foundation" of the class is flawed then what about the rest of it ? Okay well ponder that one in your spare time..
We now know that there are near identities between the "Works" of VPW and those of Leonard and Stiles both of whom published works before VPW. In short VPW plagiarized the works of others. For those not familiar or concerned with standard publishing practices, especially as they relate to academic research, this is an extremely serious offense which typically results in expulsion from any recognized institution of higher learning. Okay well that aside - given that the HS material was taken from someone else , as were the sections on sonship rights, then what does that leave
in PFAL that truly was VPW's ? His horrible jokes ? His claim that he saw snow ?
To answer the question posed in the start of the thread - PFAL collapses because it was organized around a series of teachings from disparate sources with very little of that material originating with VPW. The lack of continuity in PFAL has always been there. I asked the question frequently as to how he selected what to include and how to sequence it. Of course I was assured that it was all directed by God's will so I should rest assured that it was for the best.
I see no particular "logical" flow in PFAL
despite VPW's claims to "mathematical accuracy" and "scientific precision". What did he know about sceintific precision anyway except that it sounded good when he was teaching. No. PFAL was a bunch of separate (many unoriginal) teachings lumped together to give the illusion of some magic path to enlightenment. To many the fact that he went to so much trouble to film it and package it seems sufficient proof that it must be divine in conception else why would he bother ? Sounds odd doesn't it but I know many ex-Wayfers who think like this.
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JustThinking
I don't bother. PFAL has no real relevence to my life. There are SOOOOOO many more important things to do with my time. Love the woman of my dreams, my kids, learn something valuable (as opposed to debunking something of no use to me), etc. I'd rather do almost anything else.
Some might say "then why are you 'wasting' time here?" Here, I connect with people. That's cool. The good that I got from TWI was from meeting good people, for the most part. That enhanced my life, often despite TWI itself. Personally, I slept through PFAL most of the time. Watching VPs eyebrows go up and down with his exaggerated facial expresssions was like watching a cartoon preacher. ZZzzz...
JT
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JustThinking
Ok, truth be told: I find this whole topic too funny. Do people still take VP and his stolen classes this seriously anymore? Yikes! I don't if I should laugh or cry!
JT
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Belle
JT, why YES they do!
:D--> The class and the collaterals have been the foundation of pretty much all the teachings in TWI the past few years. They all tie of course to giving, outreach, obedience and now "sticking with the ministry that taught you the word", but they are very much adhering to PFAL and the plagarized works of vpw.
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Steve Lortz
If I remember my urban legends correctly, back in the early 20th century, young women were employed to paint glow-in-the-dark numbers on the faces of clocks, using radium in the pigment. These young ladies would use their tongues to repoint their brushes while they worked, and so ingested harmful quantities of radioactive material.
Say one of those women delivered a baby and breast-fed it. There would be radioactive contamination in her milk. She would be nurturing her child, yet at the same time, unknowingly, poisoning her baby.
Was there milk in PFAL? Some might say so. I did for a number of decades. But there was also a colorless, odorless, tasteless poison that I'm only now becoming aware of.
That poison is bound up with the idea that we shouldn't fear God. Instead of teaching us WHY and HOW to fear God, PFAL taught us a pseudo-technique for manipulating God.
Not good... not good...
Love,
Steve
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Bob
I don't use PFAL's "keys" for critiquing it. Standard research and logic suffices.
As far as thinking there was anything good in it? Maybe for some people. If it makes you happy, that's fine with me. I'll just duck when the debates begin.
Personally, I think I would have been better off never taking the darn thing. At one time I bought into it, but since I've added some pertinent books to my reading time over the last three years, which have encouraged me to think about things, not just accept them, I've pretty much tossed the whole class.
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Ham
Circular logic only gets you dizzy..
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Bob
There's no end to it either.
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Ham
Yep.. that IS the problem! At least for some of us. You can debate, research, do all the mathematical accuracy and scientific precision stuff to it and still not convince people that have somehow broken out of the loop, or have gotten off the running wheel for that matter.
I've seen hamsters run the wheels for hours on end, day and night- still did not convince me that that was the right thing for me to do in life.
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Belle
Isn't it AMAZING what you can see and start to realize and understand once you actually look at what's "out there"? They say there's nothing better "out there", but they haven't even looked "out there" so how do they know and why did I take their word for it for so long?
-->
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My3Cents
Steve, I'm not one to say there was milk in PFAL. But I do think there was poison there. However I think it was bound up in the idea that the bible is the word and/or will of God, or even that there is such a thing at all.
If you reject that notion (which never occured to me till I took PFAL and now I see as perhaps the most destructive idea humankind has come up with) then the whole of the pfal collapses.
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ljn698
what's to critique?
on its surface the pfal class (all 3 of them)
are a take it or leave it proposition
Notice i say on its surface
the thing that always got my goat about these classes was that they were always being used as sort of an initiation to some secret club of GRADS of which you too can join if you want to be enlightened and fully instructed or whatever
one time i got somebody mad at me for teaching a person how to speak in tounges before he was done with the class but after seeing how happy the guy was the first person wasn't so mad at me anymore she even apologized to me for getting mad at me in the first place so who says there are no happy endings in TWI?
yes it's true i really loved most of the people i met in TWI the only ones i ever had a problem with were the real hard-liners types
but in all fairness i think i was probably a nightmare for those same hard-line folks too
so it all evens out in the end
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ljn698
oh yeah one more thing if you want to join our secret club you gotta believe God hard enough to pony up the tuition
don't forget that!!
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Ham
Oh yeah.. sure remember that! I remember folks "miraculously" finding extra cash in their checking accounts. They wrote out some for cash, paid for the class, and low and behold, several checks happened to be just a little late coming in. Must've been da adversary, stealing that "increase" out of their bank accounts..
Happened more than once, at least that I witnessed.
But they got da class!
I wonder just what we were thinking..
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