Saved by Grace through Faith

[Steve Lortz]

I woke up in the middle of the night last night, and couldn't get right back to sleep, so I read for a bit in James Dunn's Baptism in the Holy Spirit. In a section dealing with Ephesians 2:8 I came across this quote: "Their becoming Christians is summed up by the two words -- charis and pistis -- grace on God's side, faith on man's... It is the interaction of these which effects salvation..."

The word "interaction" triggered some thinking. The process of receiving salvation is interactive. It is a DANCE!

Ephesians 2:8 reads, "For by grace [chariti = charis in the instrumental dative = "by the instrument of grace" or "by means of grace"] are ye saved through faith [dia pisteos = "through faith - in one side of faith and out the other"]; and that not of yourself: it is the gift [doron = "gift"] of God:"

It is as if faith were a door of your house. Jesus is outside the door offering you the gift of salvation by speaking the gospel. You decide to open the door (faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God). When you open the door by believing the gospel, Jesus MOVES the gift, the doron, into your house. Jesus' MOVEMENT of the gift, the doron, is charis or grace.

The upshot of all this is that "the gift of Holy Spirit" should not be considered a charism or charisma. It is the doron, the gift itself. When Jesus moves a Christian through the Holy Spirit to perform some spiritual function for another person or people, that's a charisma type of "gift".

Hope this ain't too cornfyoozing!

Love,

Steve

The only problems are, this interpretation blows both Reformed and Charismatic thinking out of the water!

Love,

Steve

Edited August 31, 2013 by Steve Lortz

[Steve Lortz]

This interpretation puts the kibosh on Wierwille's whole "law of believing" hogwash. There is NO power in faith. It's the GRACE of the giver that delivers the blessing. Faith is passive.

And there it was, right in front of our noses the whole time, in black and white!

Love,

Steve

Edited August 31, 2013 by Steve Lortz

[excathedra]

i have always felt this in my simple mind, heart

thank you

and thank you for your loving prayer

[Steve Lortz]

i have always felt this in my simple mind, heart

thank you

and thank you for your loving prayer

You're welcome, excathedra! I think the reason you have always felt this is because you listened to Him when the Lord was teaching you.

God bless you, in the very least trite sense of those words!

Love,

Steve

[excathedra]

grace on God's side, faith on man's...

i have to agree

i have ALWAYS said the reason i am god's child is because of his grace and how do i know? because of my faith

i struggled to decide what to write my "research paper" on in residence -- grace or mercy?

i decided on mercy because i was so sure of what an underseving sinner i am

not trying to go off topic

but faith has led me to where i am and it is because of god's grace and mercy and the love of jesus christ our lord and savior

i wish i could say it better

i've known this since i was in grammar school

[Steve Lortz]

It was probably best that you wrote your Corps paper on "mercy" and not on "grace". Your conception of grace would not have matched the official ministry line, because your idea of "faith" would not have, and the two are too intertwined in reality to separate.

Love,

Steve

[Twinky]

Oh, the hairs that were split over the difference if any between faith and believing.

None of which hair-splitting ever got beyond an intellectual discussion.

TWI was keen to tell us it was the "heart" that mattered and then distracted us by such intellectual discussions.

And kept us all too busy to listen to our hearts.

Whereas demonstrating (by actions) true grace, love and kindness, would have done far more to build our faith.

[Keith]

I do make a difference between faith and believing. Faith has the idea of faithfulness and steadfastness and confidence. Believing is basically a one time thing. I might believe someone, but not have faith in them. I also define faith as that which you believe to the point that affects your thoughts and actions. Or as specifically applied to God and His Word, Faith is having a steadfast confidence that what God said will come to pass and if God didn't say it all the "faith" in the world will not bring it to pass in your life. God's grace make what we have faith in available to us.

[Kit Sober]

Thanks. Nice perspective I think.

[Kit Sober]

The Watchman Nee devotional this morning,

For to me to live is Christ. Philippians 1.21.

God does not make you a Christian in the way a person teaches a monkey how to dress, eat, and move. To teach a monkey to live like a man would be such a burden to it that it would rather remain as it is than learn to be a man. Jesus Christ is our life to do everything in us. God never demands Christians to do this or to do that. For Paul says, "For me to live is Christ"—and having Christ living in him, Paul is able to endure beatings, persecutions, many perils, imprisonment in Jerusalem, and transference to Rome. It is not by his being like Christ nor imitating Christ, but by Christ living in him that he finds strength for all such things. As a monkey cannot be transformed into a man, so a Christian cannot imitate Christ.

Watchman Nee often addresses that the grace of Christianity is the working of God from within. As Steve Hill says it, "Grace is not a freedom to sin, but a freedom from sin."

The "cheap grace" which is (and was used most notably used by twi to provide license to sin).

Grace is most precious, in my opinion.:)/>

[cman]

'and to die is gain' saying the same thing ... really

a perpetual continuing or state of living and dieing

can't really choose either, needing both

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God'