hi I havent been around for 7 or 8 years and I know this is not the spot for it but I was looking for Bramble wondering if she ever stops buy I miss her.
just to be clear I never implied that John 1 supports the Trinity. But I do believe it speaks of the divinity of Christ – as does your reference/link to Philippians 2:6.
And regarding your link/reference to Ephesians 4:6 – I don’t have a problem with that either. I’ve come across this being addressed in several systematic theologies – that point to God the Father being the originator…the source…and Jesus Christ as the only authorized agent to act on behalf of the Father.
Steve Lortz has a great doctrinal thread on the economy of the Trinity – which makes a lot of sense to me…if you think about it – economy is the careful management of wealth and resources in terms of production and the consumption of goods and services – that dictionary definition is sort of business like…a little cold and clinical for my taste but in fact maybe that’s just a technical description of how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit conduct the business of redemption…I dunno…but do check out his thread Doctrine of the Trinity …you may find it enlightening…
I’ve often stated on Grease Spot I am a Trinitarian – but I use the term loosely – since there’s quite a variety of strains – and as I’ve said before on other doctrinal threads – there are many biblical subjects that defy our penchant to categorize and interpret the biblical data into neat, simple, and clear formulas for doctrine. But that’s just my standard disclaimer when it comes to matters of faith, doctrine, etc. - I could be wrong. I’m not a theologian – just an innocent bystander.
Your link/reference to Romans 10: 9 & 10 reminds me of a great book by F.F. Bruce Jesus: Lord & Savior...the book in simple terms shows how the early Christians began to perceive Jesus Christ...It was one of the first books I read after leaving the way international, that got me to think outside the box of the way's doctrine....anyway, just a thought.
love & peace
T-Bone
Hi T-Bone,
That's great comments and I'd like to say you right and all the ex-way should think outside the box of the ways doctrine or even other doctrines. That's what I'm trying to do since I left the way international, thinking outside of doctrines and understanding biblical subjects outside the box, but not being judgmental anyway.
(Oops, the bit at the end about Bolshevik's comment shouldn't be in the quote but I don't seem to be able to edit it out. I know I put the quote marks in the right place!)
Quote
I still don't feel that I have a proper concept of Jesus. At least - of Jesus now. I don't doubt the physical Jesus of two millennia ago.
It occurs to me that I don't have a big enough concept of "God," either. My view is far too parochial. God is the God of the universe, not of solely of Planet Earth, or even (merely) of our solar system. Who, then, or what, is God? An energy stream? Plasma? The bond that holds atoms and molecules together? And yet, some - entity - that possesses what we (in our minute and dust-like brains) might call thought processes - some discrete entity that occurs literally everywhere, always.
Sometimes I read a Bible and substitute every reference to "God" with "Love." It makes for an interestingly different read.
…
God as Father I have a concept of. And that's parochial.
God as Patriarch is also too parochial. In fact, it's a figure of speech that is designed to help us understand and develop a relationship with God. It's only a figure of speech.
God as HUGE and the creator of the far sides of the universe, the beginner of time, and the ender of Time, and entirely present throughout - that's a very big concept. When you get more of the HUGEness of God, then you understand more of why the person of Jesus came, to personify God. To "limit" God, if you like, so that God is small enough for us to begin to understand.
END OF MY QUOTE
And that, to some degree, fits with Bolshevik's comment about the Earth being made for people. All part of the plan.
I don't think Jesus existed as a person (or other kind of entity) before he was conceived. But he was a part of God's plan in a similar way as if, perhaps, grandparents or great grandparents might look forward (in the truest sense) to the birth of their children, and their children's children, etc, and make plans accordingly by acquiring a safe home in a safe location, sufficient defences, sufficient wealth, etc. (Of course, God's plans are infinitely bigger than the plans of mere mortals like grandparents.)
Edited by Twinky Program doesn't handle Quotes correctly
I don't think Jesus existed as a person (or other kind of entity) before he was conceived. But he was a part of God's plan in a similar way as if, perhaps, grandparents or great grandparents might look forward (in the truest sense) to the birth of their children, and their children's children, etc, and make plans accordingly by acquiring a safe home in a safe location, sufficient defences, sufficient wealth, etc. (Of course, God's plans are infinitely bigger than the plans of mere mortals like grandparents.)
You see!, this is also little problem as i don't see any other evidence of Jesus existing before he was conceived. I know that the John 1:1-8 trigger the trinity beliefs and many interpretation as well but the thing is that still not clearly prove the existence of Jesus like we know of existence of Lucifer, his rebellion and the warfare (Ezekiel 28:12-17, Isaiah 14:12-17).
Was Jesus with God during the rebellion of Lucifer, Warfare in heaven? I know that he was with God from beginning as recorded in John 1:2, is this enough to prove his existence?
You see!, this is also little problem as i don't see any other evidence of Jesus existing before he was conceived. I know that the John 1:1-8 trigger the trinity beliefs and many interpretation as well but the thing is that still not clearly prove the existence of Jesus like we know of existence of Lucifer, his rebellion and the warfare (Ezekiel 28:12-17, Isaiah 14:12-17).
Was Jesus with God during the rebellion of Lucifer, Warfare in heaven? I know that he was with God from beginning as recorded in John 1:2, is this enough to prove his existence?
Peace,
Bapsy
The way I understand it – and I could be wrong – perhaps confusion arises from forgetting the dual nature of Jesus Christ – since John 1:18 in the Greek can be translated he is one of a kind (which if it is addressing that duality – again, I’m not sure - could encompass both his human and divine nature - - a hybrid if you will)…Replying to the last part of your post - there are other verses that one could interpret as speaking of Christ’s preexistence:
John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" …John 1:15
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." … John 8:58
"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was….John 17:5
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ…I Corinthians 10: 1-4
The way I understand it – and I could be wrong – perhaps confusion arises from forgetting the dual nature of Jesus Christ – since John 1:18 in the Greek can be translated he is one of a kind (which if it is addressing that duality – again, I’m not sure - could encompass both his human and divine nature - - a hybrid if you will)…Replying to the last part of your post - there are other verses that one could interpret as speaking of Christ’s preexistence:
John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" …John 1:15
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." … John 8:58
"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was….John 17:5
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ…I Corinthians 10: 1-4
Still not answered my very last question.
I also know that he was the promised seed. John 7:42, Genesis 3:14-15, Mat 1:1-16, Gal 3:16.
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7 , Isaiah 53:10-11
As you can see there were prophecies of Christ or Messiah and the people of God already knew it, just to reply on your last post.
Acts 2: 32-36
That's why I still believe that Jesus Christ was with God in his foreknowledge.
I’m sorry maybe I misunderstood the last statement of your previous post:
“I know that he was with God from beginning as recorded in John 1:2, is this enough to prove his existence?”
I was responding to your question by citing other passages that appear to speak of his preexistence.
Concerning God’s foreknowledge, consider this verse:
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please....Isaiah 46:10 NIV
And since God inhabits eternity as Isaiah 57:15 says... which would mean he is a being not bound within a timeline - I would assume he “sees” all participants in his foreknowledge of future events - including himself...sorry if I’m not understanding your point or missing a distinction you’re trying to make.
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Grace Valerie Claire
I believe she does.
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sky4it
Thank you really very much it would be nice to talk to Garth 2000 again also
Really appreciated
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Bapsy
Hi T-Bone,
That's great comments and I'd like to say you right and all the ex-way should think outside the box of the ways doctrine or even other doctrines. That's what I'm trying to do since I left the way international, thinking outside of doctrines and understanding biblical subjects outside the box, but not being judgmental anyway.
Regards,
Bapsy
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Twinky
I posted this on another recent thread:
(Oops, the bit at the end about Bolshevik's comment shouldn't be in the quote but I don't seem to be able to edit it out. I know I put the quote marks in the right place!)
Edited by TwinkyProgram doesn't handle Quotes correctly
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Bapsy
You see!, this is also little problem as i don't see any other evidence of Jesus existing before he was conceived. I know that the John 1:1-8 trigger the trinity beliefs and many interpretation as well but the thing is that still not clearly prove the existence of Jesus like we know of existence of Lucifer, his rebellion and the warfare (Ezekiel 28:12-17, Isaiah 14:12-17).
Was Jesus with God during the rebellion of Lucifer, Warfare in heaven? I know that he was with God from beginning as recorded in John 1:2, is this enough to prove his existence?
Peace,
Bapsy
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T-Bone
The way I understand it – and I could be wrong – perhaps confusion arises from forgetting the dual nature of Jesus Christ – since John 1:18 in the Greek can be translated he is one of a kind (which if it is addressing that duality – again, I’m not sure - could encompass both his human and divine nature - - a hybrid if you will)…Replying to the last part of your post - there are other verses that one could interpret as speaking of Christ’s preexistence:
John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" …John 1:15
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." … John 8:58
"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was….John 17:5
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ…I Corinthians 10: 1-4
Edited by T-BoneClarity
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Bapsy
Still not answered my very last question.
I also know that he was the promised seed. John 7:42, Genesis 3:14-15, Mat 1:1-16, Gal 3:16.
Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7 , Isaiah 53:10-11
As you can see there were prophecies of Christ or Messiah and the people of God already knew it, just to reply on your last post.
Acts 2: 32-36
That's why I still believe that Jesus Christ was with God in his foreknowledge.
http://www.christadelphians.com/biblebasics/0703christingodsplan.html
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T-Bone
I’m sorry maybe I misunderstood the last statement of your previous post:
“I know that he was with God from beginning as recorded in John 1:2, is this enough to prove his existence?”
I was responding to your question by citing other passages that appear to speak of his preexistence.
Concerning God’s foreknowledge, consider this verse:
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please....Isaiah 46:10 NIV
And since God inhabits eternity as Isaiah 57:15 says... which would mean he is a being not bound within a timeline - I would assume he “sees” all participants in his foreknowledge of future events - including himself...sorry if I’m not understanding your point or missing a distinction you’re trying to make.
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