Socks, thank you so much for that answer. Because that really has shed some interesting new light for me!! I always thought that "god of this world" mean satan was in control of it, but what you says makes total sense. Although I have to say, I sort of cringe when I go to church (I go to different ones cause I'm still getting my feet wet about finding the "right" one for me) and I hear the people say that God is in control of everything, because I just don't know that in this world He is yet. We are still fighting a battle, but, that's another subject. But I really like what you said, about being the head guy of sin and disobedience, and it's a bit like a rabbit trick. Interesting! Thank you! :)
Good question, Rottiegrrrl...this will have a lot of "I don't know" in it...
"Serpent" is the hebrew word nachash and means shiny, or shiny one. God curses the nachash and says that now more than any animal will it be cursed, denigrated to a low state, on the earth. This seems to fit with this creatures' future on the earth - Satan is referred to as "god of this world" or this age, 2 Cor. 4:4. He is associated with "this age", this period of earth and heaven.
Given all that Genesis describes as God's curse and the other ways that Satan is referred to, I think it's wrong that theology gives Satan the role of god or ruler of the earth as in one who is in control of it. The bulk of scripture doesn't paint that picture, really. Rather I see God's description as Satan being kind of the Head Guy of Sin, of disobedience of and willfulness against God. So it's not a title of authority and ownership, but rather a title of function. As if to say, "Sin? Disobey God? That's Satan, he's THE guy on that".
He has a title then but no a true claim to God's creation. Influence but not ownership. And Satan is cursed, and the lowest of all earth's creation, animals, etc. and that would in fact - include man if I understand that - and therefore - kind of SOL and no paddle. When I really look at what the Bible says the "Devil" is not one to be feared and whatever he really is - it's mostly a kind of rabbit trick going on. But it's a very weird, twisted kind of trick, that would seem to be so warped by any human standards as to be scarey, for want of a better word, as it's the opposite of what God wants - life, growth, procreation. Thus, the tendency to promote Satan to a higher position, even though God's condemned him to a much lower one.
So the presence of a "shiny one", possibly an angelic presence that would have physical brilliance, fits. Not a serpent/snake. What exactly? Cant' say, exactly.
What this nachash was doing there, have to come back to, again, some observations on scripture, with some I dunno's - will have to come back to this later. Hope this makes sense, for consideration at least.
Thank you geisha. That really is something to ponder. the whole, "God allowed it" thing. You may have a point there. That's another thing I tend to hear when I go to church, God can allow evil to happen. They seem to take that from the book of Job, and though I close my ears to that, perhaps you have a point there about imposing our own moral standards on a Righteous God. Sheesh. So much to learn, so little time in this life. No wonder we have to take so many things of faith. :( :)
I think the simple answer is that God allowed it. . . . God allowed him to be there. Even Satan is in subjection to God. The question of why God allowed this brings up all kinds of interesting moral questions and I think how we consider and answer them reveals much about our understanding and relationship with God. These are good things to consider RottieGrrrl .... in my world anyway.
There is much more to these accounts than just some life lesson in mythology. Where you might want to start is with God's attributes and character and ask yourself why He would allow this. The temptation is to impose our morality on God instead of starting from the place of His rightness....that is when we miss the wonderful things this account reveals. My two cent and probably what it is worth.
Be wary of knee-jerk responses and answers that easily dismiss the majesty of God.
The over arching lesson to me isn't that man continually fails or succeeds by God's design and direction but rather that God directs man to choose and to choose rightly. Mankind will never choose 100 per cent perfectly all the time, every time. It is essential that we then rely on certain things - grace, mercy, forgiveness and restoration. This cycle seems to be what happens, over and over. When that process is ignored or refused, there is failure. Where it's accepted and lived, success.
An incredible thing to me is the idea that a Satan, a brilliant creation of God who knows God and his own brilliance, would decide to alter, change, ignore, overcome, defeat any part of that. It seems - weird. Yet, I can do the very same thing, do things at times that are counter to what I know is the best thing to do, not out of ignorance but by choice. Questions like - why wouldn't God forgive the Devil? Maybe the Devil doesn't want to be forgiven. Why didn't Adam throw it all down and say "I am sorry! Please, can't we learn from this and I won't do it again?" Maybe Adam didn't want to, maybe Adam was like many of us today who, against better inclination and guidance, seek to go against the better of two choices...? Genesis can seem like a silly morality play that is so impossibly abnormal that it isn't viable....but if I just look at history it's not quite as silly in it's premises and outcomes as it might seem at first glance.
This.........leaves some things unanswered, unaccounted for I know. But maybe, food for thought.
AWESOME observation. And that thing about the devil not wanting forgiveness, perhaps he can't be forgiven I don't know, but that is just the ultimate of Pride and Arrogance. You can see that in certain people too. Arrogant to the end. Wasn't Jezebel like that? lol.
How can I put this nicely....?
I"m deleting this all out - enough. The topic is interesting, rottiegrrl, I see why you and others are scarce. :o/>/> I hope I contributed something to the mix, perhaps another time it can be discussed.
Well I'm glad you didn't delete your comments! I enjoyed them! :)
If God is in relationship to us, I don't believe we do define Him through intelligence alone. How smart would one have to be to know God? Is anyone that intelligent? That is what we did in TWI ....try to define God through the text with intellectual assent to a form of knowledge.......
Knowing God is found in the relationship we have with Him. He is very able to reveal Himself ...... Read the Psalms if you are genuinely interested in what a relationship with God looks like.
AMEN geisha, and sadly that is what the offshoots are still doing. Very well said. And idolizing things like speaking in tongues and their brand of prophecy, when Jesus is crying for them to get to know the WORD, and walk in love and care for people. Those offshoots have so many problems you can't even imagine. But....I digress. Another subject for another time.
I don't think Adam wanted to be God's peer. I think Adam wanted to KNOW as much as God knows so that Adam could use that knowledge to manipulate God into using God divine POWER to do whatever Adam wanted God to do.
That's how religion's evil twin always works.
The Way International didn't use the image of a supernatural snake guarding a tree of divine knowledge, the way the ancients did. The image that Wierwille explicitly used in PFAL was that of a camaera. You have to focus your believing, becoming clear and concerned, in order to receive anything from God.
But a more appropriate illustration for the process TWI taught would have been a vending-machine-God. You put your faith into the slot, you push the button indicating you selection, and God has to give you whatever you want. "How many of God's promises do YOU know?"
Love,
Steve
You have a good point about Adam. And yeah you are right about everything you said about the Weirwille/PFAL/Way/offshoot brand of believing. Took me many, many years to get corrected on that, and I'm STILL not there yet. It's HIS will be done, NOT mine. I don't know how they could (and other churches as well) become so messed up on that when the bible is FULL of people not getting their own way, or when they do it their own way, they suffer the consequences. God can clean up the mess, but by no means is He the magic genie in the sky who grants you wishes. Amen.
Hmmm, after digesting this, I am sort of leaning towards the fact that God allowed satan to be in the garden of Eden. I watch Andrew Wommack, and I really enjoy the guy, but on certain things I believe he is off. He believes that satan was actually an angel put there to help Adam and Eve, and then turned out to deceive both God and man when he had the chance. I know he has his own interpretations to support that belief, but like I said, as much as I really think he's on top of certain things, I think he's way off on that one. Reading the responses has been enlightening and interesting. I guess I will just have to ponder this some more and search the scriptures. If God wants to enlighten me further, that's up to Him I suppose. Sigh. But The responses most of you have given me have helped tremendously. :)
Thank you WW. Very well thought out answer, especially to the idea that satan, the serpent, took God by surprise, which sounds sort of like Wommack is suggesting. That's nonsense. I sort of lean towards the idea that God does not micromanage every facet of our lives...I've actually had one lady in a church group (non-way) tell me that God knows even what color of socks I'm going to wear tomorrow. I don't completely agree (thought I don't know for sure) that He knows every single thing that is going to happen, but I read once in some teaching that it's more comparable to Bobby Fisher, the chess king. God has so many moves up His sleeve that no matter what you throw at Him, He's going to have a plan. Lots to think about, appreciate the responses.
"Free will" or freedom of choice as I would term it, is often mis applied to mean "man can choose to control God or manage His will". There's a knee jerk reaction to it - "Oh, so you think you're better and smarter than God do you?"
That's not what mans capacity to choose is or has ever been and as WW notes, it's not what Genesis states nor can be found anywhere in the Bible that I've read, even allowing for some of the looser translations.
Clearly, in the Bibles' history man has ALWAYS had choices to make. It's almost ridiculous to assume that a universal creator that creates an entire universe of possibilities and developments would not be able to include choice and as many possible outcomes as His plan and design would allow for.
It's as if there are two Gods and a choice has to be made (pun intended) as to which one we choose - one who, in order to maintain top status must control everything including the city you're going to live in and the traffic patterns tomorrow - that's the same one who ooks like a white long haired hippy, when he's not wearing his Stetson hat and spurs.
and the God who creates a universe by His own design and allows it to develop on it's own WITH parameters, limits, and periodic points of contact along the way.
The God of the Bible didn't invent Levi's or iPhones and doesn't have a favorite football team. Those are man's things.
The idea of God controlling the color of my snot and the number of red lights I"m going to encounter this week is insane and is in conflict with
The idea that my acceptance of God, my faith towards Jesus Christ, by whose faith I am saved -
Is the important matters of my life as intended by God.
Why WOULD a creator of the universe give a crap about what house I buy?
The presence of God can be seen - and this is completely my own perception - in the interactions and actions of His creations. WE present the infinite magnitude of God, expressed through the endless life of thought and action we have. "In Christ" we would have the best life of all lives lived, if and when we followed the basic precepts taught in the Gospels.
"Choice" is, I would describe it as the cuts on the diamond that make it's shape and cause the sparkle. THAT we can choose and God be over all is - to me - the most incredible thing about reality. It just whisks me off into a very pleasant place. />
All I can say is Amen to that socks. I should print that out for the next time I hear somebody say that "God is in control of everything" Because I really don't think they have thought that through. satan, wants to control everything, beginning with our minds. That's another subject for another time. The idea that Christians cannot get possessed. I hear that a lot. I don't think that people think of the difference between Holy Spirit, which the devil cannot touch, and peoples minds, which if Christians can sin, they certainly can fall to the point where they can open the doors to possession....but I digress again, lol. ;)
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to go off on another tangent, but it does bring up some other interesting questions, and as I'm reading the bible, I'm reading about God's chosen people, who made some really BAD choices! Especially in Hebrews Hall of Faith. lol. I mean, one of Jesus's own ancestors was a lady of the evening. And Sampson? Oh my gosh. His big glorious moment was also his last! Anyway, I'm getting OT. Sorry!
It's a gigantic wad of goodies, once we get going rottiegrrl. No question about that.
I know many people, Christian, who just can't wait to get this life over with and get on to the next. Who feel the "real" one is - like a party going on next door they can't go to till they get their chores done.
I like this one, now that I feel like I'm getting a leg up on understanding it. I know that sounds incredibly facetious and ridiculous - as if I have all the answers.
I don't. And I understand that I'm not supposed to. I don't need to. To have a good life I can learn, listen, do things just like we're doing here and both fail and succeed, be smart and be stupid and just keep plodding along as if I didn't know any better.
I don't. :biglaugh:/> That's what's so WONDERFUL!!!
You bring up a lot of good points, socks! Points the Bible addresses in Ecclesiates, such as: we CAN'T know everything, no matter how much we want to (Eccles. 8:17, everything is subject to time and chance (Eccles.9:11), and the whole duty of a human being is to humble himself before God and keep HIS commandments (not our own) (Eccles. 12:13).
There's a Greek word translated "time" in the New Testament - kairos. It's not like chronos, which is the Greek equivalent for our concept of "time" Kairos means "a time of opportunity" or "the moment of decision". I think the Greeks meant by kairos what we mean by the word "synchronisity", the seeming significance that can be read into events that happen at the same time, often without apparent connection by cause and effect.
That's how I think God and the Lord work in history.
This thread has stirred me to think outside my usual ruts, and for that I thank you all!
All I can say is Amen to that socks. I should print that out for the next time I hear somebody say that "God is in control of everything" Because I really don't think they have thought that through. satan, wants to control everything, beginning with our minds. That's another subject for another time. The idea that Christians cannot get possessed. I hear that a lot. I don't think that people think of the difference between Holy Spirit, which the devil cannot touch, and peoples minds, which if Christians can sin, they certainly can fall to the point where they can open the doors to possession....but I digress again, lol.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to go off on another tangent, but it does bring up some other interesting questions, and as I'm reading the bible, I'm reading about God's chosen people, who made some really BAD choices! Especially in Hebrews Hall of Faith. lol. I mean, one of Jesus's own ancestors was a lady of the evening. And Sampson? Oh my gosh. His big glorious moment was also his last! Anyway, I'm getting OT. Sorry!
Well, that's an interesting thought - control and what it means. God is "in control" yes, and I would expect that would also mean intimately, in each of our lives.
That wouldn't mean God "controls" our lives, intimately however. As you note, the "Adversary" appears to be active in that arena.
Me, I think the "god is in control" religion is a cop out. Most people are trying to be very much in control of what they do, as much as is reasonably possible - but when things don't go the way we'd like which is often, they say "there's a reason for everything and God is in control"....
Really? Y'know - is that right?
We'd like to think that there's reason to the madness we often see and hear and order to the chaos that can run amok everyday -
I see it as the way of the world. This world wasn't designed or intended to be a controlled environment. If it was, it would act more like it. It just doesnt and trying to explain life's inconsistencies that way leads to a muck of goofy explanations to explain the explanations that aren't explainable.That way.
It wouldn't mean however that a God didn't create a universe that would produce mooks like us that would try to explain it, one way or another. :biglaugh:/>
All I can say is Amen to that socks. I should print that out for the next time I hear somebody say that "God is in control of everything" Because I really don't think they have thought that through. satan, wants to control everything, beginning with our minds. That's another subject for another time. The idea that Christians cannot get possessed. I hear that a lot. I don't think that people think of the difference between Holy Spirit, which the devil cannot touch, and peoples minds, which if Christians can sin, they certainly can fall to the point where they can open the doors to possession....but I digress again, lol.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to go off on another tangent, but it does bring up some other interesting questions, and as I'm reading the bible, I'm reading about God's chosen people, who made some really BAD choices! Especially in Hebrews Hall of Faith. lol. I mean, one of Jesus's own ancestors was a lady of the evening. And Sampson? Oh my gosh. His big glorious moment was also his last! Anyway, I'm getting OT. Sorry!
I am one of those people that believe God is in control of everything and the whole creation.....the entire creation........ is in subjection to God's purpose because.... we can't thwart it. The creation includes Satan. Satan is a created being. God is eternal. Satan was required to ask God before he sifted Peter or before he challenged Job. Satan meant it for evil, but God used it for good. Much in the same way Paul turned someone out into the world so that the soul might be saved. This makes sense to me, as does a refining fire, but as for a Christian being possessed by the devil...... not so much. The idea that Satan can actually enter a person where the Holy Spirit already dwells, subjugate the Holy Spirit...who is God....and he Satan can assume complete control over God's child, this is a tough concept for me. God doesn't control everything, but Satan can completely possess? I can't see it.... A person is not compartmentalized to the point where the Holy Spirit dwells in the soul but the devil can own the mind. At least I don't see it that way. I absolutely do not believe a Christian can be possessed by Satan if they truly belong to God. God is able to keep His own. Just my perception.
Maybe how we approach some of these things comes down to what we believe and understand about God? His character and attributes? Nothing can thwart His purposes or will. Sounds like complete and ultimate control. Why would one want to thwart God? God is righteous.....unlike Christians who have someone's righteousness imputed to them by great sacrifice, God is actually righteous. Which means right. Perfectly right. It is a difficult concept to wrap ones mind around. Never wrong....ever.....always right. This is why we can put our complete faith in Him. He is able to show us time and again with incredible patience that He is right. We had better hope He is in complete control.
There is obedience to something but still....the concept of free will eludes me in scripture because of the depravity of man. This is something I am still considering but we are obedient to something. Looking at scripture....we are dead in our sins.....but one day we raise ourselves to life? No, I can't see that. Lazarus didn't just decide to arise or a kid who falls down a deep well doesn't decide to just climb out. I don't think we just decide to believe. I think it is God who saves us......it takes a supernatural act to save us....it takes God doing it. We are blind, disobedient and self-seeking and it is God who gives us the faith to believe....who reaches in and pulls us up. I really don't think we believe on our own. God has to open our eyes and give us the faith to believe. Scripture says that he blinds some and opens the eyes of others.Sounds like control. Our whole lives can be a build up to that moment where God saves us. I really don't believe scripture supports the concept of freewill as we use it our vernacular. But, it is something I still ponder. Yet, we are still rightly held responsible before God because He shouts out from creation, our conscience and His word. Go figure.
God had every reason to expect obedience from Adam.....and the serpent in the garden should have been of no consequence. Adam knew God and God provided all Adam needed. God could have had ten serpents there. It should not have mattered. Adam was the one with free-will choice and because of his choice we fell into sin.. The choice was made for us, but God provided a second Adam who made it right. The providence of God.....gotta love it!! God is sovereign.... When you hear a Christian say God is in control....it may just mean that person has been through it and come to a place of faith in God's authority....it isn't necessarily a cop-out phrase.......it can be a real declaration of faith in a sovereign God.
Since this is the doctrinal forum and a doctrinal question I can actually post a few verses, concepts and truth about God to consider without being "redirected". Hugs Rottie Grrrl hope I didn't cloud the issue more. I am just musing aloud. Happy seeking.....
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. . . Eph 1:6
I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Romans 9:21
Our God is in the heavens; he does as he pleases. Psalm 115.3
These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you. Psalm 50:21
The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. 103:19
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Proverbs 16:9
My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose Isa 46:10
For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back? Isa 14:27
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9:18
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Proverbs 19:21
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Lamentations 3:38
And said, "O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you. 2 Chronicles 20:6
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4
Who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness. Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows on them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble. Isaiah 40
But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. Job 23:13
He makes nations great, and he destroys them; he enlarges nations, and leads them away. Job 12:23
No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel can avail against the Lord. Prov 21:30
Cop out may be a strong phrase. I read and talk to people that have given up to defeat and rather than trust or asset their trust in God, basically give up and declare "it's over", and God has directed them into their current state. That may - or may not - be true. So it probably doesn't work across the board to state that.
Free "will" is incorrect, agreed. "Choice" is what I see. I'm very much into considering these ideas, as you know Geisha. :)/> I really really do appreciate the opportunity to consider things here, yours and the others.
God wills. We by our will or effort will not change or foil God's will, agreed.
Example - God says Salvation is Door 1. There's only Door 1, have at it!
Man or whoever says I built a Door 2 and Door 3, and I'm going to choose Door 2, for salvation".
Man can't and won't change what God has established, and by "will" or directed effort cause it to apply or not be applied.
Steve Geisha and socks, I just love your replies. A quick note on demon possession though. The Way, as far as I could see, in my opinion, was I believe pretty accurate in how it works. I don't believe it's necessary to possess a person's mind full time, they can fly in and out of a person's mind. It has nothing to do with Holy Spirit. I have Holy Spirit (I hope) and I can sin about 10 times before I get my first cup of coffee in the morning. There are times when my thought life SUCKS. But when people, even Christians, can start opening doors, out of ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, perhaps start fooling around with Ouija boards, giving into their own carnal desires, oh hell, anything where they just keep getting deeper and deeper into something they shouldn't, well....
It's like that story about the frog, I don't know if it's true or not. But supposedly, if you drop a frog in boiling water, he'll jump right out. But if you put a frog in water, and turn it on to boil, he will just sit there and be cooked to death. The point is, I believe the devil possesses the mind, not your soul, and certainly cannot touch your Holy Spirit. However, it is up to us to guard our thoughts. We can't help it if a bad thought comes to us, but we don't have to let it nest.
I remember Ted Bundy saying that when he got the urge to kill, it was like something dark and alien entered him, and he couldn't help himself. He was subjected to devil possession at the devils will. I'm not sure what led him to that, but it sure as hell didn't come out of the blue. It's not like he was some happy go lucky guy one moment, and turned into a serial killer the next. HE did SOMETHING to open the doors to that. I don't know if it was violent porn he masturbated too as a child, or what kind of psycological problems he had, but something turned him into what he was, and made him a perfect host for some demon.
I am sorry, I appreciate ALL your responses, and am going back to reading them all. It's just taking me awhile, and I got off on another tangent. :)
A bit of what we were taught about demons in TWI was true... most was not! First, I have no idea why Wierwille called them "devil spirits". The phrase NEVER occurs in "the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word!" "Evil spirit" - yes; "devil spirit" - no.
Nobody is "possessed" by demons in the Greek. The word in many places is daimonizomai, or "demonized", which means "to be influenced by a demon". The idea that a person "possesses" a demon is as reasonable as a person being possessing by a demon.
I think a person has to give a demon permission to enter his or her mind. I believe a person can get rid of a demon by calling on God for help. At least that was how it happened with me...
Well, one of these days, I'm going to tell you about an experience I had, which I'm not going to put out in a public forum. Perhaps we can all start a PT with each other. Hey, I want every one to know I so appreciate every response here, but what happened yesterday was my brother called me, and I don't want to get into it all now, but he has been taking taking care of my 93 year old mama for a few months now (he lives in California, I'm in Chicago burbs) and she's got hospice care now, and the hospice guy told him that if anyone is out of state to come visit her like NOW. So I'm still in a daze but I think I"m going to be gone for the next several days so I can spend a couple days with my mama. Just so you know what happens if I disappear for a few days..which I do anyway, lol, but I'm kind of in a daze about this. I thought my mama would always be there for me, you know? Anyway, I just thought I should mention this, God bless and love you all, be back in a few days, this has been so interresting!
And Steve yeah, I hear you on the devil spirit/demon thing. I always used to cringe when somebody referred to the being as a demon, because I was taught the "proper" word was devil spirit. Oh I was so Way brained, lol. It wasn't until I started actually reading the bible and saw the word demon being constantly used that I started to realize that their called DEMONS for the most part it seems. I still have to correct my old way brain from time to time it's so ingrained, lol.
Just a quick thought....in the gospels it does speak of many possessed and spirits were cast out of persons whose actions were controlled until deliverance.....if that doesn't mean possession as we understand the word in our vernacular......what does? Although, these were not believers they often became followers after their deliverance. We have clear examples in Jesus' ministry of what possesion means regardless of how the word is translated. I can give you a good blog that has many interesting things about Greek translation, nuance, and such if anyone is interested. http://www.teknia.com/
As for choice, freewill, and the sovereignty of God it is something I still consider . . . .I have never been able to completely buy into the concept of predestination but, then again, I am no brain trust.
Sorry to hear about your Mom Rottie Grrrl.... I care for my Mom and Dad both and at times it can be overwhelming. I just remind myself that there is going to come a day when I will want to visit or see them and I will not be able so I am ever grateful to still have them....no matter how much of my life or time is consumed by their care. I am so sorry about your Momma and hope you spend some wonderful time with her. Hugs and Love!!
My prayers and best wishes are with you rottiegrrl. My mother died several years ago - it seems like so long ago I can't remember the year, but it was only 5. Take whatever time you can and need to make things as best you can. It will mean a lot.
For me, the position of predestination takes my mind off doing what I can, with what I have, for God and my fellow man. Any sense of "well, God will do whatever He wants with me anyway" takes away from the simple truth of that, but that's me, that's how the Bible itself seems to express God's will for man - for all to be saved, for all to learn and know, and all to be to His glory through Christ.
I think - and this is with a capital T - that the people who wrote the stuff I read in the Bible grappled with the same things and ideas we do and that's why it isn't clearly resolved in the Bible and we end up having to interpret some ideas in light of others.
I think it's unclear for a reason - God's true nature is beyond our understanding and ability to clearly articulate in human, man terms.
People can write all the godly inspired literature they want and print it 24 hours a day - "the truth" of God's presence and of this life will reside in us as more of an idea than a writ. More of an impetus than a preconception. "Spirit" that comes and goes and we don't know where from or where to. Sure, I know lots of stuff but the Big Stuff? I'm only a student with a leaky pen and a hungry pet dog who likes my homework. .
I'm not succumbing to an easy out - in fact, it's more difficult to allow for serendipity than it is to try and fail, or try and succeed. My faith is - and this is my "story" as it were - built on a reality that I am learning about everyday but can't fully explain. I try and I would assume in that Great Day in the By and By if I find out I'm wrong about any or all of it, frankly I'll be thrilled either way. "AT LAST - AHA!!!" If I turn out to be the broken vessel by God's design, I guess I'll have to accept that. What else could I do - but say, well, that explains why I was such a pain in the foot I guess. Case solved.
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There are common themes that run through all genres of mythology, such as resurrection, afterlife, nemeses, etc. Seth recently started a thread related to this subject in the open forum. (HERE) Perhap
waysider
How can I state this more clearly? It's a myth. And, it's not unique to Christianity. It appears in belief systems from all over the globe, throughout recorded history. That, in itself, ought to tell
cman
that's not the way i see it and not that I'm going to contend for or against any view of the bible or god
RottieGrrrl
WOW! Amen WW! And Thank you for that. I will continue reading the responses now, lol. :)
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RottieGrrrl
Socks, thank you so much for that answer. Because that really has shed some interesting new light for me!! I always thought that "god of this world" mean satan was in control of it, but what you says makes total sense. Although I have to say, I sort of cringe when I go to church (I go to different ones cause I'm still getting my feet wet about finding the "right" one for me) and I hear the people say that God is in control of everything, because I just don't know that in this world He is yet. We are still fighting a battle, but, that's another subject. But I really like what you said, about being the head guy of sin and disobedience, and it's a bit like a rabbit trick. Interesting! Thank you! :)
Thank you geisha. That really is something to ponder. the whole, "God allowed it" thing. You may have a point there. That's another thing I tend to hear when I go to church, God can allow evil to happen. They seem to take that from the book of Job, and though I close my ears to that, perhaps you have a point there about imposing our own moral standards on a Righteous God. Sheesh. So much to learn, so little time in this life. No wonder we have to take so many things of faith. :( :)
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RottieGrrrl
AWESOME observation. And that thing about the devil not wanting forgiveness, perhaps he can't be forgiven I don't know, but that is just the ultimate of Pride and Arrogance. You can see that in certain people too. Arrogant to the end. Wasn't Jezebel like that? lol.
Well I'm glad you didn't delete your comments! I enjoyed them! :)
AMEN geisha, and sadly that is what the offshoots are still doing. Very well said. And idolizing things like speaking in tongues and their brand of prophecy, when Jesus is crying for them to get to know the WORD, and walk in love and care for people. Those offshoots have so many problems you can't even imagine. But....I digress. Another subject for another time.
You have a good point about Adam. And yeah you are right about everything you said about the Weirwille/PFAL/Way/offshoot brand of believing. Took me many, many years to get corrected on that, and I'm STILL not there yet. It's HIS will be done, NOT mine. I don't know how they could (and other churches as well) become so messed up on that when the bible is FULL of people not getting their own way, or when they do it their own way, they suffer the consequences. God can clean up the mess, but by no means is He the magic genie in the sky who grants you wishes. Amen.
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RottieGrrrl
Hmmm, after digesting this, I am sort of leaning towards the fact that God allowed satan to be in the garden of Eden. I watch Andrew Wommack, and I really enjoy the guy, but on certain things I believe he is off. He believes that satan was actually an angel put there to help Adam and Eve, and then turned out to deceive both God and man when he had the chance. I know he has his own interpretations to support that belief, but like I said, as much as I really think he's on top of certain things, I think he's way off on that one. Reading the responses has been enlightening and interesting. I guess I will just have to ponder this some more and search the scriptures. If God wants to enlighten me further, that's up to Him I suppose. Sigh. But The responses most of you have given me have helped tremendously. :)
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WordWolf
I think the entire concept of Free Will and the right to choose undergirds all of Scripture,
from Genesis to Revelation.
The entire history of humanity is a history of God giving Man the chance to choose good or evil,
to sin or refrain from sin, and Man choosing (usually poorly.)
From the Garden of Eden to Judgement Day, people make choices, their choices have consequences,
and they have to live with the results (or die with them, depending.)
If there was a "Serpent" (as I believe there was), he was also given the opportunity to choose-
and became such a lover of self that he chose not to serve a Just Creator.
==================
Every once in a while, I see someone speculate that God Almighty exists on a level like us.
It strikes me more like a Flatlander insisting that 3-Dimensional beings exist purely on a
2-Dimensional level as well because that's all a Flatlander can perceive of them or even
imagine of them. In Scripture, it's clear that God Almighty knows all about the present as
well as the future. It is from there that we need to seek to understand what God does and
why God does it.
Thus, the idea of "taking God by surprise" is speculative but rather silly.
It's like having a spotlight following you around, and you moving behind a thin
microphone stand and thinking you're successfully concealed.
I think the so-called "Serpent" went insane sometime before his attempted revolt because
only someone crazy or stupid could think that challenging the infinite with the finite
could result in victory for the finite. I think he was narcissistic, and vindictive.
That fits the profile with what happened later, with him scheming for paradise and
trying to rule the earth. (He tried to rule Heaven and failed, so he tried to rule
Earth and had limited success.)
Honestly, "no thought" can be hidden from God, and He "knows the end from the beginning".
But someone thinks it's possible to "deceive" God.
Time for a brisk walk outside when that's making sense.
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RottieGrrrl
Thank you WW. Very well thought out answer, especially to the idea that satan, the serpent, took God by surprise, which sounds sort of like Wommack is suggesting. That's nonsense. I sort of lean towards the idea that God does not micromanage every facet of our lives...I've actually had one lady in a church group (non-way) tell me that God knows even what color of socks I'm going to wear tomorrow. I don't completely agree (thought I don't know for sure) that He knows every single thing that is going to happen, but I read once in some teaching that it's more comparable to Bobby Fisher, the chess king. God has so many moves up His sleeve that no matter what you throw at Him, He's going to have a plan. Lots to think about, appreciate the responses.
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socks
Nice!
Think it's a combination of things, rottiegrrl -
Genesis - free will, choice -
"Free will" or freedom of choice as I would term it, is often mis applied to mean "man can choose to control God or manage His will". There's a knee jerk reaction to it - "Oh, so you think you're better and smarter than God do you?"
That's not what mans capacity to choose is or has ever been and as WW notes, it's not what Genesis states nor can be found anywhere in the Bible that I've read, even allowing for some of the looser translations.
Clearly, in the Bibles' history man has ALWAYS had choices to make. It's almost ridiculous to assume that a universal creator that creates an entire universe of possibilities and developments would not be able to include choice and as many possible outcomes as His plan and design would allow for.
It's as if there are two Gods and a choice has to be made (pun intended) as to which one we choose - one who, in order to maintain top status must control everything including the city you're going to live in and the traffic patterns tomorrow - that's the same one who ooks like a white long haired hippy, when he's not wearing his Stetson hat and spurs.
and the God who creates a universe by His own design and allows it to develop on it's own WITH parameters, limits, and periodic points of contact along the way.
The God of the Bible didn't invent Levi's or iPhones and doesn't have a favorite football team. Those are man's things.
The idea of God controlling the color of my snot and the number of red lights I"m going to encounter this week is insane and is in conflict with
The idea that my acceptance of God, my faith towards Jesus Christ, by whose faith I am saved -
Is the important matters of my life as intended by God.
Why WOULD a creator of the universe give a crap about what house I buy?
The presence of God can be seen - and this is completely my own perception - in the interactions and actions of His creations. WE present the infinite magnitude of God, expressed through the endless life of thought and action we have. "In Christ" we would have the best life of all lives lived, if and when we followed the basic precepts taught in the Gospels.
"Choice" is, I would describe it as the cuts on the diamond that make it's shape and cause the sparkle. THAT we can choose and God be over all is - to me - the most incredible thing about reality. It just whisks me off into a very pleasant place.
/>
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RottieGrrrl
All I can say is Amen to that socks. I should print that out for the next time I hear somebody say that "God is in control of everything" Because I really don't think they have thought that through. satan, wants to control everything, beginning with our minds. That's another subject for another time. The idea that Christians cannot get possessed. I hear that a lot. I don't think that people think of the difference between Holy Spirit, which the devil cannot touch, and peoples minds, which if Christians can sin, they certainly can fall to the point where they can open the doors to possession....but I digress again, lol. ;)
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to go off on another tangent, but it does bring up some other interesting questions, and as I'm reading the bible, I'm reading about God's chosen people, who made some really BAD choices! Especially in Hebrews Hall of Faith. lol. I mean, one of Jesus's own ancestors was a lady of the evening. And Sampson? Oh my gosh. His big glorious moment was also his last! Anyway, I'm getting OT. Sorry!
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socks
It's a gigantic wad of goodies, once we get going rottiegrrl. No question about that.
I know many people, Christian, who just can't wait to get this life over with and get on to the next. Who feel the "real" one is - like a party going on next door they can't go to till they get their chores done.
I like this one, now that I feel like I'm getting a leg up on understanding it. I know that sounds incredibly facetious and ridiculous - as if I have all the answers.
I don't. And I understand that I'm not supposed to. I don't need to. To have a good life I can learn, listen, do things just like we're doing here and both fail and succeed, be smart and be stupid and just keep plodding along as if I didn't know any better.
I don't. :biglaugh:/> That's what's so WONDERFUL!!!
Sorry - enjoying the moment.
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Steve Lortz
You bring up a lot of good points, socks! Points the Bible addresses in Ecclesiates, such as: we CAN'T know everything, no matter how much we want to (Eccles. 8:17, everything is subject to time and chance (Eccles.9:11), and the whole duty of a human being is to humble himself before God and keep HIS commandments (not our own) (Eccles. 12:13).
There's a Greek word translated "time" in the New Testament - kairos. It's not like chronos, which is the Greek equivalent for our concept of "time" Kairos means "a time of opportunity" or "the moment of decision". I think the Greeks meant by kairos what we mean by the word "synchronisity", the seeming significance that can be read into events that happen at the same time, often without apparent connection by cause and effect.
That's how I think God and the Lord work in history.
This thread has stirred me to think outside my usual ruts, and for that I thank you all!
Love,
Steve
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socks
Well, that's an interesting thought - control and what it means. God is "in control" yes, and I would expect that would also mean intimately, in each of our lives.
That wouldn't mean God "controls" our lives, intimately however. As you note, the "Adversary" appears to be active in that arena.
Me, I think the "god is in control" religion is a cop out. Most people are trying to be very much in control of what they do, as much as is reasonably possible - but when things don't go the way we'd like which is often, they say "there's a reason for everything and God is in control"....
Really? Y'know - is that right?
We'd like to think that there's reason to the madness we often see and hear and order to the chaos that can run amok everyday -
I see it as the way of the world. This world wasn't designed or intended to be a controlled environment. If it was, it would act more like it. It just doesnt and trying to explain life's inconsistencies that way leads to a muck of goofy explanations to explain the explanations that aren't explainable.That way.
It wouldn't mean however that a God didn't create a universe that would produce mooks like us that would try to explain it, one way or another. :biglaugh:/>
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geisha779
I am one of those people that believe God is in control of everything and the whole creation.....the entire creation........ is in subjection to God's purpose because.... we can't thwart it. The creation includes Satan. Satan is a created being. God is eternal. Satan was required to ask God before he sifted Peter or before he challenged Job. Satan meant it for evil, but God used it for good. Much in the same way Paul turned someone out into the world so that the soul might be saved. This makes sense to me, as does a refining fire, but as for a Christian being possessed by the devil...... not so much. The idea that Satan can actually enter a person where the Holy Spirit already dwells, subjugate the Holy Spirit...who is God....and he Satan can assume complete control over God's child, this is a tough concept for me. God doesn't control everything, but Satan can completely possess? I can't see it.... A person is not compartmentalized to the point where the Holy Spirit dwells in the soul but the devil can own the mind. At least I don't see it that way. I absolutely do not believe a Christian can be possessed by Satan if they truly belong to God. God is able to keep His own. Just my perception.
Maybe how we approach some of these things comes down to what we believe and understand about God? His character and attributes? Nothing can thwart His purposes or will. Sounds like complete and ultimate control. Why would one want to thwart God? God is righteous.....unlike Christians who have someone's righteousness imputed to them by great sacrifice, God is actually righteous. Which means right. Perfectly right. It is a difficult concept to wrap ones mind around. Never wrong....ever.....always right. This is why we can put our complete faith in Him. He is able to show us time and again with incredible patience that He is right. We had better hope He is in complete control.
There is obedience to something but still....the concept of free will eludes me in scripture because of the depravity of man. This is something I am still considering but we are obedient to something. Looking at scripture....we are dead in our sins.....but one day we raise ourselves to life? No, I can't see that. Lazarus didn't just decide to arise or a kid who falls down a deep well doesn't decide to just climb out. I don't think we just decide to believe. I think it is God who saves us......it takes a supernatural act to save us....it takes God doing it. We are blind, disobedient and self-seeking and it is God who gives us the faith to believe....who reaches in and pulls us up. I really don't think we believe on our own. God has to open our eyes and give us the faith to believe. Scripture says that he blinds some and opens the eyes of others.Sounds like control. Our whole lives can be a build up to that moment where God saves us. I really don't believe scripture supports the concept of freewill as we use it our vernacular. But, it is something I still ponder. Yet, we are still rightly held responsible before God because He shouts out from creation, our conscience and His word. Go figure.
God had every reason to expect obedience from Adam.....and the serpent in the garden should have been of no consequence. Adam knew God and God provided all Adam needed. God could have had ten serpents there. It should not have mattered. Adam was the one with free-will choice and because of his choice we fell into sin.. The choice was made for us, but God provided a second Adam who made it right. The providence of God.....gotta love it!! God is sovereign.... When you hear a Christian say God is in control....it may just mean that person has been through it and come to a place of faith in God's authority....it isn't necessarily a cop-out phrase.......it can be a real declaration of faith in a sovereign God.
Since this is the doctrinal forum and a doctrinal question I can actually post a few verses, concepts and truth about God to consider without being "redirected". Hugs Rottie Grrrl hope I didn't cloud the issue more. I am just musing aloud. Happy seeking.....
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will. . . Eph 1:6
I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. Job 42:2
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Romans 9:21
Our God is in the heavens; he does as he pleases. Psalm 115.3
These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you. Psalm 50:21
The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. 103:19
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps. Proverbs 16:9
My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose Isa 46:10
For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back? Isa 14:27
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9:18
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand. Proverbs 19:21
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come? Lamentations 3:38
And said, "O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you. 2 Chronicles 20:6
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Proverbs 16:4
Who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness. Scarcely are they planted, scarcely sown, scarcely has their stem taken root in the earth, when he blows on them, and they wither, and the tempest carries them off like stubble. Isaiah 40
But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does. Job 23:13
He makes nations great, and he destroys them; he enlarges nations, and leads them away. Job 12:23
No wisdom, no understanding, no counsel can avail against the Lord. Prov 21:30
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socks
Excellent verses!
Cop out may be a strong phrase. I read and talk to people that have given up to defeat and rather than trust or asset their trust in God, basically give up and declare "it's over", and God has directed them into their current state. That may - or may not - be true. So it probably doesn't work across the board to state that.
Free "will" is incorrect, agreed. "Choice" is what I see. I'm very much into considering these ideas, as you know Geisha. :)/> I really really do appreciate the opportunity to consider things here, yours and the others.
God wills. We by our will or effort will not change or foil God's will, agreed.
Example - God says Salvation is Door 1. There's only Door 1, have at it!
Man or whoever says I built a Door 2 and Door 3, and I'm going to choose Door 2, for salvation".
Man can't and won't change what God has established, and by "will" or directed effort cause it to apply or not be applied.
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RottieGrrrl
Steve Geisha and socks, I just love your replies. A quick note on demon possession though. The Way, as far as I could see, in my opinion, was I believe pretty accurate in how it works. I don't believe it's necessary to possess a person's mind full time, they can fly in and out of a person's mind. It has nothing to do with Holy Spirit. I have Holy Spirit (I hope) and I can sin about 10 times before I get my first cup of coffee in the morning. There are times when my thought life SUCKS. But when people, even Christians, can start opening doors, out of ignorance, arrogance, stupidity, perhaps start fooling around with Ouija boards, giving into their own carnal desires, oh hell, anything where they just keep getting deeper and deeper into something they shouldn't, well....
It's like that story about the frog, I don't know if it's true or not. But supposedly, if you drop a frog in boiling water, he'll jump right out. But if you put a frog in water, and turn it on to boil, he will just sit there and be cooked to death. The point is, I believe the devil possesses the mind, not your soul, and certainly cannot touch your Holy Spirit. However, it is up to us to guard our thoughts. We can't help it if a bad thought comes to us, but we don't have to let it nest.
I remember Ted Bundy saying that when he got the urge to kill, it was like something dark and alien entered him, and he couldn't help himself. He was subjected to devil possession at the devils will. I'm not sure what led him to that, but it sure as hell didn't come out of the blue. It's not like he was some happy go lucky guy one moment, and turned into a serial killer the next. HE did SOMETHING to open the doors to that. I don't know if it was violent porn he masturbated too as a child, or what kind of psycological problems he had, but something turned him into what he was, and made him a perfect host for some demon.
I am sorry, I appreciate ALL your responses, and am going back to reading them all. It's just taking me awhile, and I got off on another tangent. :)
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Steve Lortz
You go off on some good tangents, Rottiegrrrl!
A bit of what we were taught about demons in TWI was true... most was not! First, I have no idea why Wierwille called them "devil spirits". The phrase NEVER occurs in "the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word!" "Evil spirit" - yes; "devil spirit" - no.
Nobody is "possessed" by demons in the Greek. The word in many places is daimonizomai, or "demonized", which means "to be influenced by a demon". The idea that a person "possesses" a demon is as reasonable as a person being possessing by a demon.
I think a person has to give a demon permission to enter his or her mind. I believe a person can get rid of a demon by calling on God for help. At least that was how it happened with me...
Love,
Steve
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RottieGrrrl
Well, one of these days, I'm going to tell you about an experience I had, which I'm not going to put out in a public forum. Perhaps we can all start a PT with each other. Hey, I want every one to know I so appreciate every response here, but what happened yesterday was my brother called me, and I don't want to get into it all now, but he has been taking taking care of my 93 year old mama for a few months now (he lives in California, I'm in Chicago burbs) and she's got hospice care now, and the hospice guy told him that if anyone is out of state to come visit her like NOW. So I'm still in a daze but I think I"m going to be gone for the next several days so I can spend a couple days with my mama. Just so you know what happens if I disappear for a few days..which I do anyway, lol, but I'm kind of in a daze about this. I thought my mama would always be there for me, you know? Anyway, I just thought I should mention this, God bless and love you all, be back in a few days, this has been so interresting!
And Steve yeah, I hear you on the devil spirit/demon thing. I always used to cringe when somebody referred to the being as a demon, because I was taught the "proper" word was devil spirit. Oh I was so Way brained, lol. It wasn't until I started actually reading the bible and saw the word demon being constantly used that I started to realize that their called DEMONS for the most part it seems. I still have to correct my old way brain from time to time it's so ingrained, lol.
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geisha779
Just a quick thought....in the gospels it does speak of many possessed and spirits were cast out of persons whose actions were controlled until deliverance.....if that doesn't mean possession as we understand the word in our vernacular......what does? Although, these were not believers they often became followers after their deliverance. We have clear examples in Jesus' ministry of what possesion means regardless of how the word is translated. I can give you a good blog that has many interesting things about Greek translation, nuance, and such if anyone is interested. http://www.teknia.com/
As for choice, freewill, and the sovereignty of God it is something I still consider . . . .I have never been able to completely buy into the concept of predestination but, then again, I am no brain trust.
Sorry to hear about your Mom Rottie Grrrl.... I care for my Mom and Dad both and at times it can be overwhelming. I just remind myself that there is going to come a day when I will want to visit or see them and I will not be able so I am ever grateful to still have them....no matter how much of my life or time is consumed by their care. I am so sorry about your Momma and hope you spend some wonderful time with her. Hugs and Love!!
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socks
My prayers and best wishes are with you rottiegrrl. My mother died several years ago - it seems like so long ago I can't remember the year, but it was only 5. Take whatever time you can and need to make things as best you can. It will mean a lot.
For me, the position of predestination takes my mind off doing what I can, with what I have, for God and my fellow man. Any sense of "well, God will do whatever He wants with me anyway" takes away from the simple truth of that, but that's me, that's how the Bible itself seems to express God's will for man - for all to be saved, for all to learn and know, and all to be to His glory through Christ.
I think - and this is with a capital T - that the people who wrote the stuff I read in the Bible grappled with the same things and ideas we do and that's why it isn't clearly resolved in the Bible and we end up having to interpret some ideas in light of others.
I think it's unclear for a reason - God's true nature is beyond our understanding and ability to clearly articulate in human, man terms.
People can write all the godly inspired literature they want and print it 24 hours a day - "the truth" of God's presence and of this life will reside in us as more of an idea than a writ. More of an impetus than a preconception. "Spirit" that comes and goes and we don't know where from or where to. Sure, I know lots of stuff but the Big Stuff? I'm only a student with a leaky pen and a hungry pet dog who likes my homework. .
I'm not succumbing to an easy out - in fact, it's more difficult to allow for serendipity than it is to try and fail, or try and succeed. My faith is - and this is my "story" as it were - built on a reality that I am learning about everyday but can't fully explain. I try and I would assume in that Great Day in the By and By if I find out I'm wrong about any or all of it, frankly I'll be thrilled either way. "AT LAST - AHA!!!" If I turn out to be the broken vessel by God's design, I guess I'll have to accept that. What else could I do - but say, well, that explains why I was such a pain in the foot I guess. Case solved.
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