Individual people can move beyond Wierwille... but only by leaving The Way International behind. But that's not scary. By walking away from The Way International, you can begin walking with Jesus Christ by way of the Spirit!
But they can't move away. It seems they need the comfort of "the teacher".
I think that all the times he assured or reassured folks with "don't worry, if it's wrong I'll tell you".....they are so stuck there that they can't let go to go anywhere else.
I recently had an unexpected encounter with a group that used to be a couple of twigs with a few folks not there. They were talking and acting as if they were back in the "good old days", as if nothing had happened!
They have their fellowships 3 times per week. View the sns dvd. I cannot comprehend how they do it anymore. And the believe they're worshiping God.
I recognize their names and faces. But that's all. It was eerie!
I recently had an unexpected encounter with a group that used to be a couple of twigs with a few folks not there. They were talking and acting as if they were back in the "good old days", as if nothing had happened!
They have their fellowships 3 times per week. View the sns dvd. I cannot comprehend how they do it anymore. And the believe they're worshiping God.
I recognize their names and faces. But that's all. It was eerie!
Once you see the little man unmasked who was running the Wizard of Oz scam, it's kind of inevitable that you move beyond Wierwille. Although some refused to look at the unmasking, preferring to retain their old image.
Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser (CES) were willing to move beyond Wierwille (the law of believing, the lordship of Jesus Christ) until they published something themselves (Don't Blame God, articles in Dialogue, monthly tapes). Once it was published under their own names, then the only changes that could be made to the doctrine were to make it even more extreme. Wierwille's "idiom of permission" became a Pillsbury Doughboy God who has no foreknowledge and Who only giggles when anybody punches Him in the stomach. Wierwille's "get to whom addressed correct" became The Administration of the Sacred Secret.
They went beyond Wierwille briefly to practice servant-leadership, until they got involved with Momentus. Then they went WAY BEYOND Wierwille in open, shameless abuse of their followers and of each other.
Individual people can move beyond Wierwille... but only by leaving The Way International behind. But that's not scary. By walking away from The Way International, you can begin walking with Jesus Christ by way of the Spirit!
Love,
Steve
Or whatever YOU DECIDE you want to do with YOUR LIFE.
We do live in a FREE country, right?
What exactly IS the meaning of freedom, if we have to become slaves (doulos?) to what ANY other person decides?
There are a multitude of options. If you give up self-determination, are you really free?
If you give up self-determination, are you really free?
Eventually we all will. Give up self-determination, that is..
Hopefully later than sooner. Eventually.. one will be forced to live in a residence, not of their choosing.. eat food prepared, not tempered with their own tastes.. bathed, when another decides it is the correct time on their schedule..
if one lives long enough.
just a thought.
even the Victoid ended up being an inconvenience on somebody elses schedule.. and the mrs. as well.
Jeesus f ing Christ. "those under your charge" are NOT some kind of subservient, paramilitary force.. they are supposed to be God's People.. yeah. .... the bastard in charge off with some violation of unspoken protocol.. yeah.. just send them all off in the night.. as some kind of lesson. To whom? Frigging idiots..
Morons..
no, *they* have NOT moved beyond wierwille.
what if a "follower" refused sexual advances of one charged with oversight..
I been having a precious internet communication with someone who still refers to "beloved xxxx," but he and his (truly) lovely wife also listen to other ministries and of course they read the Bible primarily.
I figure heaven, when we all will be perfect, will look a lot different than we imagine it now. (I had a vision of someone being in the presence of the Lord after he died, and I know treated his family terribly.)
I am so glad that God has been able to free me from the cult mentality. I really don't worry about or am concerned with what that cult leader is doing now because one way or another he has had his life reconciled by the Lord.
For years, I thought TWI would move beyond wierwille. I was wrong.
1) Biblical Research would keep forging ahead, right?
2) Valiant men and women of truth would not allow man-worship in twi, right?
3) The "household of God" would keep their eyes fixated on God, right?
WRONG.
The organization was centered on wierwille, not Christ.
The organization was all about wierwille, always.
The organization has circled the wagons to keep wierwille at center.
Geer pushed the wierwille-doctrine.
Martindale had the wierwille-mantle.
Rosalie re-instated wierwille-mania.
Offshoots keep leavening the lump.
J2P2 runs his grandpappy's corps program.
Man-worship.......nothing new under the sun. <_</>
Now you're sounding like LCM. He once told us that there's 15 places in Timothy and Titus which have the phrase "the doctrine" and it referred to the 7 church epistles and if you're in leadership (Timothy and Titus are "leadership epistles") then it is assumed that you KNOW what "the doctrine" is. You keep referring to the "wierwille-doctrine". Let's see. Pfal foundational alone was 34 hours. Lots of doctrine in 34 hours. Yet, we're assumed to KNOW what the "wierwille-doctrine" is. But I thought VP plagiarized everything. Wouldn't it really be the BG Leonard doctrine? Forked tongue.
I'm not up to speed on other offshoots, but the fellowship I attend, which is associated with Chris Geer, has been hammering home that there is no believing raygun which you can shoot at anything you want and get anything you want. Also, that the words "ask" and "thank" are not synonymous. Both of those are contrary to what VP taught.
Also, remember that VP kept musicians on a short leash, at least as far as lyrical content was concerned? Our fellowship has 3 big meetings every year; Easter, Pentecost, and Jesus' real birthday. For the past 7 years or so, I have been called on to have 3 songs ready for those meetings. Sometimes I play alone, sometimes I have other musicians. This year on both Easter and yesterday on Pentecost I worked with a recent foundational class grad. He's about 30 years old and plays a keyboard instrument. We did 2 songs that are not old way prod songs like most of the ones I do. The only lyrics I changed were Christ or Christ Jesus instead of just Jesus. The songs went over very well. They are I will rise, by Chris Tomlin and Where I belong, by Building 429. Both can be seen on youtube. Being a musician and having been subject to the 'ego trip waiting to happen' kind of scrutiny that musicians in twi were subject to when VP was alive, I find this a breath of fresh air.
Moving beyond Wierwille? It never was about Wierwille for me. I never prayed to VP; I pray to God.
Wierwille's "doctrine" was not so much about how many were crucified with Christ as it was about the lifestyle he promoted. To some degree, the two are intertwined. For example, his use of Darby's administrations/dispensations (doctrine) allowed for an excuse to act (lifestyle) in a manner that is contrary to the overall body of scriptures that most Christians hold in high regard. Likewise with his "law of believing". It's a doctrine, true, but the real danger lies in the kind of lifestyle it promotes. There are plenty more examples of this same kind of thing. Had PFAL not promoted a particular, unorthodox kind of lifestyle, it would have faded into history rather quickly, as merely another Bible class, lost among the millions that came before and after it. This same lifestyle is what persists to this day. If you haven't seen it, you probably haven't been on facebook lately, where ex-Way followers continue to hype and promote it.
Moving beyond Wierwille? It never was about Wierwille for me. I never prayed to VP; I pray to God.
Well, after reading Chris Geer's paper on "Passing of the Patriarch", it most certainly was ALL about Wierwille for Chris. Even all his books he published under the "edited posthumously" editor tag - they were certainly all about Wierwille.
It's pretty intellectually dishonest to not recognize Geer's connection to Wierwille.
So you find yourself once again trying to genuinely worship God while still under the authority of a guy whose Wierwille worship has visible evidence of being far beyond what any rational human being would have for another man.
And yet somehow this is just the individual and God again?
Sorry. Not buying it. You're changing one cult for another.
moving beyond that little weenie should be quite simple. i don't understand why those other offshoot "leaders" would want to aspire to such a little thing
It's hard for me to feature anyone who heard Geer read The Passing of A Patriarch regarding him as anything other than an egotistical megalomaniac intent on blackmailing his way into a position of preeminence that he hadn't earned.
You could say that at first; I never heard of the guy before 1986, but after 27 years? He's earned much more than LCM at this point. Same hollow arguments.
You could say that at first; I never heard of the guy before 1986, but after 27 years? He's earned much more than LCM at this point. Same hollow arguments.
John....what's with the focus on LCM? Are you attempting to point to Geer's "accomplishments" by referencing LCM as a standard-bearer?
Really? Talk about HOLLOW arguments.....you're nailing it!
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Steve Lortz
Individual people can move beyond Wierwille... but only by leaving The Way International behind. But that's not scary. By walking away from The Way International, you can begin walking with Jesus Christ by way of the Spirit!
Love,
Steve
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waysider
".....and having done all, do WHAT, class?"
"Move beyond Wierwille!!"
"Dat's riiiight!"
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krys
But they can't move away. It seems they need the comfort of "the teacher".
I think that all the times he assured or reassured folks with "don't worry, if it's wrong I'll tell you".....they are so stuck there that they can't let go to go anywhere else.
I recently had an unexpected encounter with a group that used to be a couple of twigs with a few folks not there. They were talking and acting as if they were back in the "good old days", as if nothing had happened!
They have their fellowships 3 times per week. View the sns dvd. I cannot comprehend how they do it anymore. And the believe they're worshiping God.
I recognize their names and faces. But that's all. It was eerie!
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waysider
Hmmmm....sounds like a bad case of Déjà Vic.
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Tzaia
It's a cult. It's what cults are about. Why the surprise?
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skyrider
Yeah......no surprise NOW.
BUT, having defended wierwille and co. for all that time AND before the "scales fell from my eyes"....I THOUGHT
twi would move beyond wierwille. Wasn't that what pfal was all about? Biblical Research, No Man's Opinion,
Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth.....and all that jazz!
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chockfull
Once you see the little man unmasked who was running the Wizard of Oz scam, it's kind of inevitable that you move beyond Wierwille. Although some refused to look at the unmasking, preferring to retain their old image.
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skyrider
Yeah.....once you SEE THE SCAM, for *most* it's kind of inevitable to move beyond wierwille
.....and to move beyond twi's "private interpretation" schtick.
.....and to move beyond the offshoots that model twi's multi-level marketing class/outreach format.
.....and to move beyond ALL TWI'S PSEUDO-TRUTH of "walking by the spirit."
But then......some followed offshoots into momentus.
And...........some followed offshoots into personal prophecy and nose spiders.
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Steve Lortz
Lynn, Schoenheit and Graeser (CES) were willing to move beyond Wierwille (the law of believing, the lordship of Jesus Christ) until they published something themselves (Don't Blame God, articles in Dialogue, monthly tapes). Once it was published under their own names, then the only changes that could be made to the doctrine were to make it even more extreme. Wierwille's "idiom of permission" became a Pillsbury Doughboy God who has no foreknowledge and Who only giggles when anybody punches Him in the stomach. Wierwille's "get to whom addressed correct" became The Administration of the Sacred Secret.
They went beyond Wierwille briefly to practice servant-leadership, until they got involved with Momentus. Then they went WAY BEYOND Wierwille in open, shameless abuse of their followers and of each other.
Love,
Steve
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chockfull
I kind of think that the splinter group founders and people have not "moved beyond Wierwille". They want to be Wierwille, at least on a smaller scale.
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Rocky
Or whatever YOU DECIDE you want to do with YOUR LIFE.
We do live in a FREE country, right?
What exactly IS the meaning of freedom, if we have to become slaves (doulos?) to what ANY other person decides?
There are a multitude of options. If you give up self-determination, are you really free?
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Ham
Eventually we all will. Give up self-determination, that is..
Hopefully later than sooner. Eventually.. one will be forced to live in a residence, not of their choosing.. eat food prepared, not tempered with their own tastes.. bathed, when another decides it is the correct time on their schedule..
if one lives long enough.
just a thought.
even the Victoid ended up being an inconvenience on somebody elses schedule.. and the mrs. as well.
at the moment, I question that assertion.
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Ham
This is still the sticky point, where we part company, you moron.
Or the largest, most obnoxious sticky point.
You are not God.. and never will be..
no, they have not moved beyond wienerville.
the quote is from the newest course description.
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Ham
Jeesus f ing Christ. "those under your charge" are NOT some kind of subservient, paramilitary force.. they are supposed to be God's People.. yeah. .... the bastard in charge off with some violation of unspoken protocol.. yeah.. just send them all off in the night.. as some kind of lesson. To whom? Frigging idiots..
Morons..
no, *they* have NOT moved beyond wierwille.
what if a "follower" refused sexual advances of one charged with oversight..
.... the "little" bastard off..
yep. Off you go..
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Kit Sober
I been having a precious internet communication with someone who still refers to "beloved xxxx," but he and his (truly) lovely wife also listen to other ministries and of course they read the Bible primarily.
I figure heaven, when we all will be perfect, will look a lot different than we imagine it now. (I had a vision of someone being in the presence of the Lord after he died, and I know treated his family terribly.)
I am so glad that God has been able to free me from the cult mentality. I really don't worry about or am concerned with what that cult leader is doing now because one way or another he has had his life reconciled by the Lord.
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johniam
Now you're sounding like LCM. He once told us that there's 15 places in Timothy and Titus which have the phrase "the doctrine" and it referred to the 7 church epistles and if you're in leadership (Timothy and Titus are "leadership epistles") then it is assumed that you KNOW what "the doctrine" is. You keep referring to the "wierwille-doctrine". Let's see. Pfal foundational alone was 34 hours. Lots of doctrine in 34 hours. Yet, we're assumed to KNOW what the "wierwille-doctrine" is. But I thought VP plagiarized everything. Wouldn't it really be the BG Leonard doctrine? Forked tongue.
I'm not up to speed on other offshoots, but the fellowship I attend, which is associated with Chris Geer, has been hammering home that there is no believing raygun which you can shoot at anything you want and get anything you want. Also, that the words "ask" and "thank" are not synonymous. Both of those are contrary to what VP taught.
Also, remember that VP kept musicians on a short leash, at least as far as lyrical content was concerned? Our fellowship has 3 big meetings every year; Easter, Pentecost, and Jesus' real birthday. For the past 7 years or so, I have been called on to have 3 songs ready for those meetings. Sometimes I play alone, sometimes I have other musicians. This year on both Easter and yesterday on Pentecost I worked with a recent foundational class grad. He's about 30 years old and plays a keyboard instrument. We did 2 songs that are not old way prod songs like most of the ones I do. The only lyrics I changed were Christ or Christ Jesus instead of just Jesus. The songs went over very well. They are I will rise, by Chris Tomlin and Where I belong, by Building 429. Both can be seen on youtube. Being a musician and having been subject to the 'ego trip waiting to happen' kind of scrutiny that musicians in twi were subject to when VP was alive, I find this a breath of fresh air.
Moving beyond Wierwille? It never was about Wierwille for me. I never prayed to VP; I pray to God.
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waysider
Wierwille's "doctrine" was not so much about how many were crucified with Christ as it was about the lifestyle he promoted. To some degree, the two are intertwined. For example, his use of Darby's administrations/dispensations (doctrine) allowed for an excuse to act (lifestyle) in a manner that is contrary to the overall body of scriptures that most Christians hold in high regard. Likewise with his "law of believing". It's a doctrine, true, but the real danger lies in the kind of lifestyle it promotes. There are plenty more examples of this same kind of thing. Had PFAL not promoted a particular, unorthodox kind of lifestyle, it would have faded into history rather quickly, as merely another Bible class, lost among the millions that came before and after it. This same lifestyle is what persists to this day. If you haven't seen it, you probably haven't been on facebook lately, where ex-Way followers continue to hype and promote it.
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chockfull
Well, after reading Chris Geer's paper on "Passing of the Patriarch", it most certainly was ALL about Wierwille for Chris. Even all his books he published under the "edited posthumously" editor tag - they were certainly all about Wierwille.
It's pretty intellectually dishonest to not recognize Geer's connection to Wierwille.
So you find yourself once again trying to genuinely worship God while still under the authority of a guy whose Wierwille worship has visible evidence of being far beyond what any rational human being would have for another man.
And yet somehow this is just the individual and God again?
Sorry. Not buying it. You're changing one cult for another.
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excathedra
moving beyond that little weenie should be quite simple. i don't understand why those other offshoot "leaders" would want to aspire to such a little thing
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skyrider
Yes, wierwille DID plagiarize heavily from many sources, most notably Leonard's foundational class.....but he also
added Albert Cliffe's occultist doctrine of "the law of believing." Lots of patchwork and mortaring to make for
a *WIERWILLE LEAN-TO OUTHOUSE.*
John, I can fully understand that you are "not up to speed on the offshoots"......because you really aren't "up to speed"
on wierwille's sleight of hand false ministry even after all these years of hanging out here at GSC. No worries. Go at
the speed that best works for you.....but at your rate, it might take awhile.
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Steve Lortz
It's hard for me to feature anyone who heard Geer read The Passing of A Patriarch regarding him as anything other than an egotistical megalomaniac intent on blackmailing his way into a position of preeminence that he hadn't earned.
Love,
Steve
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johniam
You could say that at first; I never heard of the guy before 1986, but after 27 years? He's earned much more than LCM at this point. Same hollow arguments.
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skyrider
John....what's with the focus on LCM? Are you attempting to point to Geer's "accomplishments" by referencing LCM as a standard-bearer?
Really? Talk about HOLLOW arguments.....you're nailing it!
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waysider
"...earned much more."
Much more WHAT?
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