Tired of the lecturing...

[WordWolf]

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.]

Whew! Let me get this straight.

[That opening, from some posters, means we're cutting to the heart of an issue.

From some other posters, that means we're going to CONCEAL the heart of an issue.

Let's see which one this is.

If it's the latter, maybe we'll determine why it's so.]

Walter was head of research so he HAD to be privy to the bad stuff,

[Walter was head of research so he HAD to be privy to the RESEARCH.

When John S (Research staff) came out with his paper (research) saying "adultery is bad"

(really elementary research for a Bible student),

Walter was well aware of it-

buried it, and helped characterize it as evil, saying that whoever READ it would

be in peril of devils infiltrating their thoughts.

That's not even counting what he [iadmitted[/i] to being privy to separately.

If you are in charge of something, you are privy to it and it is your responsibility.

vpw liked to pretend he knew lots about the military, but all his characterizations

of them were fictional and based on movies and none on the experience he never got.

If he HAD gotten experience, he might have learned something simple to the officer

training at any level-

when you're in charge of something, you're responsible for all of it and if it goes

right OR wrong, you are responsible. This is considered really simple for a lot of

people, including people who never entered the military.

Walter was in charge of research. The Research Department dropped the ball on adultery

in a general sense, and when the issue came up in a good research paper,

the response was the opposite that would have been taken if anyone RESPONSIBLE

was in charge (someone WORTHY of responsibility, someone who could take a stand

for truth and right rather than just write a paper and think the work ends there

with no moral duties.]

but Ralph D was trunk leader, international outreach cordo, etc. but he says he had no idea what was going on and you blindly believe him. Nice double standard.

[supposing neither knew anything before it all came to a head,

each should have been a bit better. (Walter should have had research

saying what the Bible REALLY says and Ralph should have known more

about what was going on.

I give both the benefit of the doubt on that, until things were brought

to their attention.

When Ralph learned about women victimized, he didn't bury the news, he

did something about it- and was punished for standing up for what's

right and true. He was threatened, menaced (legal definition),

and kicked off grounds for it. We all know that without anything

"blind".

When Walter learned about the adultery paper, he buried the paper and

kept his job- not suffering any consequences because he maintained

the same established, CORRUPT order that was doing wrong.

We all know that without anything "blind."

We all know who left when, and who was forced out.

We're using a rather fair standard-judging by their deeds.

You're doing everything to avoid saying that vpw and the people

he personally groomed did the opposite to Scripture-

committed adultery, set up opportunities to commit more adultery,

and set up a whole structure to facilitate it- from grooming the

targets to monitoring the victims and savaging their reputations

if they showed signs of doing their legal and civic duties and

reporting it. What vpw and his cronies did was wrong.

It was right to write a paper saying "adultery is wrong." John S did that.

It was wrong to bury a paper saying "adultery is wrong." Walter did that.

It was right to say "rape and molestation is wrong" and do something

about it. Ralph did that.

It was wrong to punish people for speaking up about it.

vpw's cronies did that.

You want to absolve Walter for what he did and blame Ralph for what he did.

I don't know what kind of "standard" that is, but it's seriously bent.]

Is it not true that you are the self appointed pope of gsc and since Ralph has kissed your ring by being penitent you absolve him, but Walter hasn't been penitent yet so you can't absolve him...aww...whatever.

[it is no true.

This sentence was nonsense that detracts from the discussion.

One guy did the right thing, and that's been noted.

One guy did the wrong thing, and that's been noted.

This whole "pope" thing was inserted nonsense.]

In a related matter, Kris in her book says she was at Gunnison in VPs office and he left the room for a bit and she saw what he was writing and it said unflattering things about jews and she was horrified. She made it sound like she JUST THEN realized VP had issues with jews. What? I don't think so. Stanley Reahard posted on waydale that in 1981 she was at a night owl at HQ with VP and he said that the USA fought on the wrong side during WW2. Kris' account happened AFTER 1981. She knew!

[so,

1) You're saying vpw was wrong in REPEATED STATEMENTS pro-Nazis and anti-Jews

2) Kris and Stanley were part of a bunch of people who heard these REPEATED STATEMENTS

3) People who worked on-grounds-who got little sleep each night as has been reported-should still be

intellectually alert late into the evening after getting up early and working all day and still

being at it into the night- and should have stopped in their tracks mentally and reevaluated

the nonsense that was sprung on them late at night

As someone who wasn't there, you're forgetting critical details you weren't present to see.

The racist tripe was saved until people were walking zombies and less likely to catch it

and say "Wait, what?"

Yes, Kris and others didn't catch it.

However, people who are exhausted are mentally dulled and vulnerable to tripe.

That's probably why it was sprung on them then. vpw seemed to save the antiBiblical stuff

for late at night rather than after breakfast or after lunch.

So, she was present.

It's understandable she might have been completely zoned out and waiting for a chance to

fully go to sleep. She may not have even HEARD what was being said. Being exhausted does

that. Heck, being in a repetitive business meeting during the day after enough sleep

can lead to a person zoning out. Why should it be a surprise that someone could miss

something under "extreme conditions"?

Maybe she heard it and didn't evaluate it because she was exhausted.

Maybe she didn't even hear it because she was exhausted.

MAYBE she knew-but the evidence seems against it.]

But you certainly absolve her as well.

[No.

First of all, you brought her up.

Second of all, you missed critical details.

Everyone who was in twi bears some responsibilities for what they did, depending on

exactly what they did and did NOT do. Kris is no exception.

You're the one who's introducing "black and white thinking" into this.

Walter seems like a nice guy who did some horrible things when someone said

"adultery is wrong." He saved his cushy job at the time, and has never said

anything like "it was a poor decision to disagree with what the Bible said

to support an organizational structure." I can own MY mistakes, and I do.

It keeps me honest and it keeps me trying harder to avoid making them again,

or making new ones.]

I don't give a damn about kissing your papal ring.

[That's fine, since nobody here-except you- suggested either a physical

or a metaphorical ring, papal or not.

Hm, you posted that at 8:30am. I was hoping you had the excuse, at least,

of being able to say you were tired and not at your best.

You were awake and alert posting that.

I can't "absolve" you of that post.

Too bad.]

not quite sure what you're on about here, but ralph said in his audio interview he was privy to all this info on adultery and it came up in the "yak" twig or whatever with the BOT. All that stuff was a major part of ralph and a group of top leaders leaving.

walter sounds like he was playing politics. he also did not say he had no idea what was going on. he said he was not aware of all the accusations and their histories. that is quite different. in other words he had probably heard rumors he ignored, but since nothing official had come up he wasn't accountable for it. that's a little more in alignment with reality there.

and what's all this about popes, rings, and absolvement? I mean I hear that the new pope is a humble man averse to outward show, but unless you're a catholic I doubt anyone would care about such things.

and you're introducing a conspiracy theory into kris skedgell's book? surrounding when she knew about VP's conspiracy theories? that's a little twisted up for me.

Dude, if that's your brain on Wierwille, I'd just stop. It isn't doing any good for you. Logically, a brain on Wierwille will lead you down the road towards self aggrandizement, adultery, plagiarism, and conspiracy theory.

As twi classes and programs dwindle to a halt.....I cannot help but wonder if advanced class grads and corps are TIRED OF THE LECTURING.

It's one thing, with initial involvement, to be optimistic about the group's 'mission statement' and help in that cause.......but, with each passing year of involvement, one sees the hypocrisy and favoritism and double-standards. Then, more and more, when weighed in the balance of scriptures the perception of this great divide widens. Twi is NOT the ministry (cough, cough) that it purports to be. The "teachings" are simply a subtle form of LECTURING and indoctrinating.

If their deeds don't follow their words.......its hypocrisy.

If prevailing deeds don't follow prevailing words......its hypocrisy.

If "its good for thee, but not for me".....its two-faced hypocrisy.

Are the adults tired of the charades yet? I think so. More and more evidence seems to suggest that local fellowships are STAYING local.

Maybe, they can no longer afford to travel to hq's sunday teaching services with the economy crawling along? That may be a part of it.

But....when coupled with 1)boring and 2)lecture.....I tend to think that staying away from hq is what many are doing.

Sure, they may not be voicing in clear terms their dissent and displeasure......BUT THEIR ACTIONS ARE UNMISTAKABLE.

Didn't vpw used to quote that poem......"I'd rather SEE a sermon, than HEAR one any day."

....."I'd rather one would WALK with me, than merely POINT the way."

After leaving twi,

people have the freedom to be free of nonsensical tripe being spewed,

being blamed for the failings of those who led,

and absolving those who led and failed.

They also have the freedom to KEEP that nonsensical tripe.

As we can see from this thread, they're free to do either.

As we can see from this thread, most people seem to prefer freedom from

nonsensical tripe. We're happier that way.

Edited April 28, 2013 by WordWolf

[Twinky]

Thou shalt not steal.

Hmmm. Probably means "spiritual" stealing.

Just a reminder:

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me [ESPECIALLY those whose surname begins with W].

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth [OR ANY BOOK CALLED PFAL]: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy . 9 Six days shalt thou labour , and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill .

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery .

15 Thou shalt not steal .

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his foot, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

VPW taught that the 10 Cs don't apply to us, in our administration.

(And in this I'd include a wider definition of "kill" - to kill off one's ability to love God, to love life ... to kill off one's zest for life. One's "spirit" if you will, though that has connotations for all of us.)

Hands up if you can spot any of these that he did observe.

Wot? he didn't observe any of them? What a surprise...!

[Allan]

Good God people...we had ADULTERY going on @ Indiana campus family corps !! That's one of the reasons we left...the wife of one of the perpetrators was to told to quit whining about it...why, ? because her husbands parents were h.q. staff :) my wife & I decided if these were the standards, leadership wasn't for us lol

[Twinky]

:offtopic:/> Allan, that's not the reason they told me, why you left. (I wonder now if even the Oirishman was told the real reason either, probably not.) Can't remember now what I was told. But that wasn't the reason!! Why am I not surprised?

[Allan]

:offtopic:/>/> Allan, that's not the reason they told me, why you left. (I wonder now if even the Oirishman was told the real reason either, probably not.) Can't remember now what I was told. But that wasn't the reason!! Why am I not surprised?

well,we know some of them became adept liars or at best, experts at 'twisting'the truth, all in the name of protecting the 'ministry'.We'll have to catch up for an ale some time :) I heard some of their lies about us,all it did was solidify our decision to leave being the right one. I remember one time bumping into the oirish git in public and the look on his face as he frantically punched his mobile keys ( I presume he was calling for back up ??!! lol.) He looked so full of fear...but then that couldn't be right....could it...?? hahahahahaha

[Galen]

well,we know some of them became adept liars or at best, experts at 'twisting'the truth, all in the name of protecting the 'ministry'.We'll have to catch up for an ale some time I heard some of their lies about us,all it did was solidify our decision to leave being the right one. I remember one time bumping into the oirish git in public and the look on his face as he frantically punched his mobile keys ( I presume he was calling for back up ??!! lol.) He looked so full of fear...but then that couldn't be right....could it...?? hahahahahaha

The first Way Corpse I ever met face-to-face was Steve Strezpec, I had caught him in his web of lies to the believers. The first day, he declared that I was born of the adversary and booted me out from the fellowships.

Over the years, I have been booted out three times. Each time, I was booted out by a Way Corpse. Each time, they were in direct violation of scripture. The last time, they demanded that we burn our Bibles.

I have never seen that kind of behavior among Joe believers.

Our current Twig Coordinator knows all about this, as does our region-whatever. I have not hidden my previous experiences with Way Corpse from the folks in our current twig. When we got back into it this time around, the region Coordinator is a guy who I had witnessed to, long ago.

Among Joe Believers; there may be some who are HOT, and some who are mild. Among Joe Believers, I have never experienced that kind of evilness, that I have experienced from among some of the Way Corpse.

[WordWolf]

The first Way Corpse I ever met face-to-face was Steve Strezpec, I had caught him in his web of lies to the believers. The first day, he declared that I was born of the adversary and booted me out from the fellowships.

Over the years, I have been booted out three times. Each time, I was booted out by a Way Corpse. Each time, they were in direct violation of scripture. The last time, they demanded that we burn our Bibles.

I have never seen that kind of behavior among Joe believers.

(snip)

So,

in your experience,

twi's in-house, 4-year training program,

where they spend 4 years of a person's life- at the person's expense,

teaching the person doctrine, practice, conduct, and so on,

produces practice and conduct WORSE than the people who never entered

that program.

Doesn't that say something about twi?

[Allan]

doesn't it say even more about the people still trying to cling to the flotsam and jetsam ( spelling ?)

[skyrider]

When we got back into it this time around, the region Coordinator is a guy who I had witnessed to, long ago.

Galen.....I still don't think that you're seeing the full picture. The REASON that your current region coordinator "is a guy

who you'd witnessed to".......is because ALL THE OTHERS IN THAT POSITION LEFT.

Twi calls it damage control or "battlefield promotions."

The problem is NOT the corps......the problem is THE WAY INTERNATIONAL AND ITS TEACHINGS/DOGMA.

[chockfull]

Over the years, I have been booted out three times. Each time, I was booted out by a Way Corpse. Each time, they were in direct violation of scripture. The last time, they demanded that we burn our Bibles.

With every injustice such as this I have experienced I have considered is the organization worth saving or is it a scenario where it is beyond where you can put new wine into old wineskins. This has been a topic of prayer.

When I started to see a greater Christian example on the block in which I lived and in the group in which I worked in business than I saw in the leadership of TWI I knew that was the point in which they were spiritually dead and that they deserved to have no authority over my life and my family.

But everyone has different tipping points.

[socks]

Move to California Galen. You need to get out more. The Way has some of your "Joe Believers" here that were the most judgmental, off-scripture, and vindictive dikheads you could hope to meet. Not all of course, but plenty to go around if you need some.

Differentiating between your JB's and Corps and all of that is off base from any biblical standpoint, anyway.

I doubt - I really don't believe - that God has special sections for Roman Catholics or Wayfers or Galenites or any recognition of the sects, societies and other lines of demarcation that we hold to be so valuable.

If you're an a hole, you're an a hole. Humans populate and gather as they're inspired. The "blame game" only works on our levels of perception. Take it back to zero and you have a person making decisions about what they want to do or not do. That's what God sees, if I go by what the Bible says.

But like I said, your haven of heavenly local JB's is probably as rife with hypocrisy and lies as any group of people, on average. They're either just not motivated enough to take it to the next level or they haven't had a chance yet.

Something else that doesn't get a lot of air time here is the simple fact that if a person doesn't like what a group is doing, and no one's breaking the law and is assembling on their own then those who want to should and those that don't shouldn't. If you don't like what that group is doing, want to change it and they don't want to change it then go somewhere else.

Over the years I saw a lot of people that got "kicked out" where the group was better off for their going than if they'd stayed. Not saying you are or were one of them but I'm just being honest. Not everyone that gets kicked out of the Way is a good person or does good things and is just being treated badly or wrongly. .

[Steve Lortz]

Whew! Let me get this straight. Walter was head of research so he HAD to be privy to the bad stuff, but Ralph D was trunk leader, international outreach cordo, etc. but he says he had no idea what was going on and you blindly believe him. Nice double standard.

Is it not true that you are the self appointed pope of gsc and since Ralph has kissed your ring by being penitent you absolve him, but Walter hasn't been penitent yet so you can't absolve him...aww...whatever.

In a related matter, Kris in her book says she was at Gunnison in VPs office and he left the room for a bit and she saw what he was writing and it said unflattering things about jews and she was horrified. She made it sound like she JUST THEN realized VP had issues with jews. What? I don't think so. Stanley Reahard posted on waydale that in 1981 she was at a night owl at HQ with VP and he said that the USA fought on the wrong side during WW2. Kris' account happened AFTER 1981. She knew!

But you certainly absolve her as well.

I don't give a damn about kissing your papal ring.

Who the heck are you talking to, John? Are you talking to me? I don't wear any rings. What am I to make of your contributions to the conversation that goes on here? Do you have a bone to pick with somebody in particular that you aren't explicitly addressing your remarks to?

Back in 1980 or so, when Wierwille started talking about appointing a successor, I was in favor of Walter Cummins because I respected his research. The more I learned about research both inside and outside TWI since then, the more disappointed I became with EVERYONE. Dishonesty was at Wierwille's heart from the beginning. Dishonesty was at the heart of Power For Abundant Living. Dishonesty was at the root of the Way Tree structure. Jeremiah 17:9 says that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. The desperate wickedness in everybody's heart is the temptation to believe we know as much as God knows. That was a temptation Wierwille gave into and many of us followed. I know I did.

Oh, the endless agony of listening to Corps lectures in residence. Oh, the ultimate agony of listening to The Passing of A Patriarch when ALL the demonic forces came flying out!

Love,

Steve

[Allan]

I think if Galen was to think about it....3 x God has attempted to deliver him from the clutches of malignant evil...be thankful Galen.I remember after we left/asked not to return ( in case we opened our mouths you know to the joe believers back in our country about the corps shennaigans ) we heard one 'story' about the 'joe believers' putting up a new fence for the country co-ord. on his property. Stinking hot day, whilst they toiled heartily, he and his arsesistant ( my bro-in-law btw ) sat in chairs sipping lemonade barking orders lol.Well,the country co-ord. had a bad back ya know !!

[Ham]

I think God has allowed him to walk in the shadow of the valley of malignant evil..

[Allan]

I think God has allowed him to walk in the shadow of the valley of malignant evil..

hahahahaha, very good

[socks]

All men are liars (and this is to Allan and anyone else reading this)

Some are just better at it or have more opportunity to excel than others.

One of the most dammed difficult things for humans to do is just be truthful and factually honest, even within a reasonable effort. Avoidance and aversion alone count for a major part of the kinds of obfuscation that is prominent in the Way. That doesn't even account for all the reinvention and re purposing they do.

Wayfers tied to the hip of the Way Nash get toxic over time but a lot of that is - IMO - how the individual thinks and what they need.

For all the disgust expressed over the years for "nametag" thinking, a lot of it still goes on. I don't place any great amount of negative value to that however, it's an indication of man's tendencies. Put another way, once humans get fed, have decent digestion, effective and comfortable respiration and aren't being threatened by something else that wants to kill or eat them - we start looking around for other things to do. Our choices reveal everything. />

[excathedra]

galen, i'm a way corpse grad and i want to know about that tattoo on your arm 666

all men are liars that's what the big book says

i was thinking about a lot of things to say as i read through this but i don't know if any of it would be meaningful

you got wierwille who tried to get into my pants since i was a pfal grad in a college girls way home and some of those girls really worshipped him to the point they gave themselves to him and i did not agree with that

why the f would i stay? i was a screwed up teenager from a screwed up upbringing

yet i was still stupid enough to think that these people could be my spiritual answer / family whatever

it's very strange w hen i look back. our girl leader who was one of vp's #1 you-know (i didn't know then) told me when our limb leader came for the weekend that it would be such a lovely spiritual privilege to lay with him

she also told me the same thing re: wierwille and allen -- or that's why the gals were going over the pheasant hunting grounds to stay on the coach

i feel so stupid now

i do feel in my own defense :) that coming from a place where sexual abuse had occurred might have played into all this

also searching for a father fig

but i go on and on, don't i? many books written on this damn subject

i actually do believe what i've been told about vp and his own personal family. there was no reason whatsoever for this to be untrue

but it makes sense anyway

[excathedra]

clip chosen at random

[Galen]

So, in your experience, twi's in-house, 4-year training program, where they spend 4 years of a person's life- at the person's expense, teaching the person doctrine, practice, conduct, and so on,

produces practice and conduct WORSE than the people who never entered that program.

Yes.

Perhaps not 100% of the time, but certainly a majority of the time.

... Doesn't that say something about twi?

To me it says that after VPW took BG Leonard's class and cut it down, he also gave it a marketing spin. VPW was a salesman. He built an organization focused on marketing classes.

I have nothing against BG Leonard's work. But he never marketed it in the same manner, and never got the response that VPW got.

With every injustice such as this I have experienced I have considered is the organization worth saving or is it a scenario where it is beyond where you can put new wine into old wineskins.

I was recently working through the Gospels, and I came to the 'wineskin' topic. In context, Jesus spent a lot of time telling the Jews that the Gentiles were going to be coming into the fellowship. He spoke of this in many parables. A recurring theme of Jesus' to the Jews.

Yes aged wine may be 'better', but it gets replaced with new wine in new vessels.

Move to California Galen. You need to get out more.

I am from California.

I have been Twig Coordinator of two different Twigs in California. As well as in four other states and one other country.

galen, i'm a way corpse grad and i want to know about that tattoo on your arm 666

I have no tattoo on my arm.

I have one on my chest, two sea monsters chewing on a garbage can. It is my combat medal that I wore for many years, and decided to have tattooed on the spot where it goes on my uniform.

:)

all men are liars that's what the big book says

I have seen, a few 'hints' in the New Testament that Paul may have been a womanizing scoundrel as well. I am not making excuse for VPW, or any of this batch.

I see a lot of corruption in mainstream churches, I seem to see corruption everywhere. Men get 'power' and ... I do not think that power corrupts them, by itself. But that likely we are all corrupt to begin with. Power allows the corruption to grow.

People put VPW on a pedestal. They convinced themselves he was holy. That it would be a spiritual honor to ...

I see it now, in the Twg we attend. We have a couple people who clearly still worship VPW. Less than a month ago I heard: "... I was sitting in a class, he walked by and touched my shoulder, and that was the most spiritual moment of my entire life..."

[skyrider]

I have seen, a few 'hints' in the New Testament that Paul may have been a womanizing scoundrel as well. I am not making excuse for VPW, or any of this batch.

I see a lot of corruption in mainstream churches, I seem to see corruption everywhere. Men get 'power' and ... I do not think that power corrupts them, by itself. But that likely we are all corrupt to begin with. Power allows the corruption to grow.

People put VPW on a pedestal. They convinced themselves he was holy. That it would be a spiritual honor to ...

I see it now, in the Twg we attend. We have a couple people who clearly still worship VPW. Less than a month ago I heard: "... I was sitting in a class, he walked by and touched my shoulder, and that was the most spiritual moment of my entire life..."

Galen....I find it rather interesting that your response to sock's statement "All men are liars that's what the big book says"

is to first address it by saying "I have seen, a few 'hints' in the New Testament that Paul may have been a womanizing scoundrel as well."

WOW, just WOW --- hints....may......womanizing.....scoundrel......as well.

On one hand, you subtly induce doubt about the character and integrity of the Apostle Paul.....and then, link this 'fallen corruption' to VPW.

So, if Paul had problems and could have been a womanizing scoundrel....why should we expect any more from VPW? Is that what you're saying?

Please elaborate.

Also, you mention that a couple people in the twig you attend "worship VPW." So, have you taken them aside and taught them the more perfect way,

the Lord Jesus Christ? Or, do you just let it slide? Perhaps, you could teach a mini-series on this topic.....and see if that changes their

perspective of idolizing wierwille?

If "wierwille walking by and touching me was the MOST SPIRITUAL MOMENT of my entire life"......then, I would certainly know that I was in a weak

twig and colluding with cultish perspectives. Sounds like there's a lot to be done to correct the Galatians bewitching.

[waysider]

Speaking personally, I don't think I could sit idle or remain silent while hearing VPW revered. I guess it's a choice one has to make.

[Steve Lortz]

Speaking personally, I don't think I could sit idle or remain silent while hearing VPW revered. I guess it's a choice one has to make.

You know, waysider, an antichrist is not a solitary bugaboo found in the book of Revelation. According to I John 2:18, there have been many antichrists in the world since the first century. An antichrist is an "against-Christ", but that doesn't mean one has to argue against the idea of there being a Christ. An antichrist can be against the true Christ by setting HIMSELF up in a place that belongs to Christ.

Weirwille set himself up as the man of God of this our day and time, to carry out the will of the "absent" Christ.

The reverence that people hold for Wierwille is reverence for an antichrist. And that's why I, like you, no longer choose to sit idle and remain silent while people give to the phoney con-man reverence that rightly belongs to the Son of God!

Love,

Steve

Edited May 5, 2013 by Steve Lortz

[GeorgeStGeorge]

Less than a month ago I heard: "... I was sitting in a class, he walked by and touched my shoulder, and that was the most spiritual moment of my entire life..."

That may have been a true statement. A very sad statement about that person's life, if true.

George

[excathedra]

very very sad, george

[WordWolf]

The first Way Corpse I ever met face-to-face was Steve Strezpec, I had caught him in his web of lies to the believers. The first day, he declared that I was born of the adversary and booted me out from the fellowships.

Over the years, I have been booted out three times. Each time, I was booted out by a Way Corpse. Each time, they were in direct violation of scripture. The last time, they demanded that we burn our Bibles.

I have never seen that kind of behavior among Joe believers.

(snip)

So,

in your experience,

twi's in-house, 4-year training program,

where they spend 4 years of a person's life- at the person's expense,

teaching the person doctrine, practice, conduct, and so on,

produces practice and conduct WORSE than the people who never entered

that program.

Doesn't that say something about twi?

(snip)

To me it says that after VPW took BG Leonard's class and cut it down, he also gave it a marketing spin. VPW was a salesman. He built an organization focused on marketing classes.

I have nothing against BG Leonard's work. But he never marketed it in the same manner, and never got the response that VPW got.

(snip)

[Hey, Galen, you changed the subject and pretended you didn't.

Was the previous subject too touchy?

Let's review what you hid there.

We were discussing how vpw (a man with no training nor experience whatsoever with

leadership training programs other than sitting in on a class or two that were not

designed to train leadership)

set up a program, supposedly to train Christians to be better Christians and to be

Christian LEADERS,

and after a few YEARS of that program,

by your own admission and confirmation,

those Christians came out WORSE as Christians than Christians who never

entered that program.

That didn't say anything about MARKETING.

That said something about how awful the program was- it consistently achieved

results the OPPPOSITE of what was supposedly intended.

That said something about how awful twi was- it set up and administered that

program and never saw a need to fix its glaring problems.

That said something about vpw- he had no background in anything necessary to set up

such a program, he set it up, he promoted it, he charged the participants money

and had them work, and when complaints came in, he blew them off-

including complaints of rapes during LEAD-

and he never did any kind of analysis to see if the program was actually HELPING

rather than HURTING.

On the other hand, nobody makes the same claims about BG Leonard.

Leonard made classes specifically for already-trained ministers, to enhance their

performance with their congregations. No prestige in that, no money in that,

no name recognition in that. Leonard wanted to bless God's people.

vpw didn't really care about that. "vpw was a salesman.

He built an organization focused on marketing classes."

Ok, I'll heartily agree with you there. ]

(snip)

People put VPW on a pedestal. They convinced themselves he was holy. That it would be a spiritual honor to ...

I see it now, in the Twg we attend. We have a couple people who clearly still worship VPW. Less than a month ago I heard: "... I was sitting in a class, he walked by and touched my shoulder, and that was the most spiritual moment of my entire life..."

[vpw put HIMSELF on a pedestal. Need me to break down all the steps he took to

do that? (Anyone want me to get into that all again?)

vpw put HIMSELF on a pedestal.

vpw was a salesman. vpw sold people on HIMSELF and convinced them that he was

some great one. He built his organization around the image he built of the classes

and of himself who taught the classes. People were tricked, people were fooled.

People put him on the pedestal that he himself had prepared.

vpw convinced THEM he was holy.

These people didn't invent that themselves- vpw primed them for it and set the stage

and said all kinds of things to lead people there. Some of them got all the way

there, some got part of the way there. Some are still there.]