Marketing, in and of itself, is not wrong. What's wrong is marketing a product that has been shown to be defective and using deceptive measures to do so.
Thought for the day....I know VP was everything people express here (and probably worse )....but I cant help thinking that without the VP's and the Kenneth Copelands and Joel ( mr. plastic} Osteen and Joyce Meyers and yes, even the Benny ( am I still married ) Hinn's...whether Christianity today would be almost dead in the water...so droll and lifeless without these marketing gurus ?? I know VP rehashed BG Leonards work, but as someone pointed out, BG Leonard was no evangelist/marketer ! The people mentioned above make/made Gods' Word come alive for a lot of folks, something I think even the honourable Billy Graham would struggle to do today.
So to market Christianity we need the flaming demise of individual morality and plastic people presenting a false front?
I say the opposite. Christianity and big business have opposing goals. True Christianity is at a personal level. It's a gift meant to be given freely and accepted freely, not a means to enrich a man's coffers or provide him with a legacy.
It's the avarice of man at issue here, not the grace of God.
I agree entirely Chockful....I'm just saying that romans 10:9,10 Christianity is a lot more palpable to a lot more people when it's done in an auditorium or outdoor arena than behind the walls of a broken brick facade building with outdated decor :)
"Marketing", as seen in the Myers, Hinn, Copeland, Osteen and Weirwille ministries is a destructive process working against legitimate authentic Christian experience.
You're intelligent people, you don't need me to tell you what marketing as a process is.
To the concepts of faith and relationships it's unnecessary. It's talking about what you want to talk about and how good it will be to talk about it when you do talk about it. and how good it will be for you.
Real authentic human spiritual experience doesn't have time or need for that. Talk, just have the experience and the relationship.
Marketing typically allows for people to tell you what you're supposed to experience and value, and what they want you to experience and value.
That's fine but it's bull shi t when it comes to life.
No one had to market Christianity to me, when I experienced real new birth and miracles that happened in the context of the name of Jesus Christ and the teaching of His love and power. When and as that occurred I got the message, loud and clear.
Weirwille was on the cusp of that with PFAL. Endlessly selling the PFAL class as an event that taught the Word was unnecessary and pretty much ended up stomping out the real life of the living power of the Word. People had teaching events filled with bible teaching and some mad scrabble at the end to speak in tongues. If that's all it was it's fine but it's not enough. There has to be something real that occurs during that, something that God markets, not people.
That's illustrated by the many people trying to "get back" to what they think they had (Jo Jo).
There's no .....getting back to or just enough that's good enough....that does any good. If you didn't get it the first time or think you did and have lost it, fuk it. Start fresh, know the love you want to live now, not as a memory - now.
People need the real thing. Then they don't give a crap what anyone thinks or does.
Even the "man born blind" didn't give a rats foot about the who/what/where and when of his healing. It was simple - I was blind, I can see, that Guy did it. If you don't like it, or want to talk about it, fine. I'm going to go look at stuff for the first time, it's cool.
i remember when i invited my mom and one of my sisters to an "america awakes" (nothing to do with you, socks :)) concert -- begged them to come -- to see what life is all about. guess what they came away with? why are all the people with buttons on only talking to and being nice to the people with buttons pinned on? mine was a college wow button
--
before i got "witnessed to" i was in my college dorm room alone listening to my godspell album and the song "prepare ye the way of the lord" -- someone knocked on my door to witness to me. it was a very personal experience. same thing when i led myself into speaking in tongues before i was grad. also recall ministering to a lovely fellow who was having a convulsion when i believed i had christ in me and could heal in his name.... more stuff....
but the more i got "in the way" the less personal christ became, you know? each day i try to recapture if you will what i lost....
When it comes to "marketing" Christianity......it's ALREADY been done.
No catchy slogans.....no marketing campaigns.....no slick publications......no super bowl ads.
Act 2:22 ¶ Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
1) Who was this Jesus of Nazareth? --- [this lowly, little, unknown place?]
2) A man approved of God --- what? no blueblood pedigree? no intellectual prowess?
3) Among you --- not just some podium preacher or flim-flam hypocrite
4) By miracles and wonders and signs --- TALK ABOUT MARKETING FOR ALL TO SEE!
5) Which GOD DID by him in the midst of you --- *a product everyone should want*
6) As ye yourselves ALSO KNOW --- seen it, want it, need it, own it
To me marketing in a business sense is segmenting the overall population into a small group to the point where a business' expertise most directly meets the needs of that segmented group.
The dichotomy to me is that Christianity is for the overall population, not just a segment - a gift given freely. Yet churches are man-made organizations that have a need to segment the overall population to reach members who will join thus increasing the church's numbers and bring in money. The big business of Christianity gets in the way of the genuine message and reach of Christianity.
Must admit that I "Sold" PFAL to people when I wanted to sign them up for it. Telling them and showing them all the benefits of the class on the green card and telling them how it would dynamically change their lives. Now, maybe it had started out as witnessing the bible when I first got involved and it was all about God, but as the pressure grew to get people to take the class (Maybe I imagined that), I started doing anything I could to get people into the class.
I broke down on Lightbearers and deliberately manipulated a couple to get them to sign up for PFAL. When we got back to Gunnison, the Corps Coordinator consoled all the people who hadn't got anybody signed up, and I thought, "I violated MY integrity for this!?!" That was when I started to plan leaving the in-residence training at the end of the block, and just before Geer read The Passing of a Patriarch.
On the topic of how things were marketed in the first century, in Advanced Greek we translated what the prof called a "mystery document." I thought it was a description of Alexander the Great suffering from a seizure disorder, but it turned out to be a description by Lucian of Samosata (a late-first, early-second century AD writer) writing about a travelling-magic-user who delivered prophecies and "healed" people. This magic-user was named Alexander the False Prophet. He would chew the roots of certain plants in order to foam at the mouth while he delivered his prophecies, and he would stand next to a box with a hole in it. After a person paid him for a prophecy, a snake (sock-puppet) would come out of the hole and move its mouth, and Alexander would throw his voice into the puppet snake, and deliver the same kind of prophecy that a person could find today in a Chinese fortune cookie.
Technology may be higher today, but we can still be just as stupid!
yeah so we got a "class together" minimum 7 i think big f'ing deal. never saw the people again -- didn't know them -- actually did we care?
when vince and wierwille and hot dogs came to campus, i always wondered what their results would have been had they just been out doing what we did
you know?
Looking back on Lightbearers from the inside, it seems as if it were deliberately designed to prevent us from actually caring about any of the people we came in contact with, including our partners.
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Ham
I think God has allowed him to walk in the shadow of the valley of malignant evil..
GeorgeStGeorge
That may have been a true statement. A very sad statement about that person's life, if true. George
excathedra
very very sad, george
waysider
Marketing, in and of itself, is not wrong. What's wrong is marketing a product that has been shown to be defective and using deceptive measures to do so.
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chockfull
So to market Christianity we need the flaming demise of individual morality and plastic people presenting a false front?
I say the opposite. Christianity and big business have opposing goals. True Christianity is at a personal level. It's a gift meant to be given freely and accepted freely, not a means to enrich a man's coffers or provide him with a legacy.
It's the avarice of man at issue here, not the grace of God.
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Allan
I agree entirely Chockful....I'm just saying that romans 10:9,10 Christianity is a lot more palpable to a lot more people when it's done in an auditorium or outdoor arena than behind the walls of a broken brick facade building with outdated decor :)
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excathedra
steve lortz, i've really appreciated your posts on here
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socks
"Marketing", as seen in the Myers, Hinn, Copeland, Osteen and Weirwille ministries is a destructive process working against legitimate authentic Christian experience.
You're intelligent people, you don't need me to tell you what marketing as a process is.
To the concepts of faith and relationships it's unnecessary. It's talking about what you want to talk about and how good it will be to talk about it when you do talk about it. and how good it will be for you.
Real authentic human spiritual experience doesn't have time or need for that. Talk, just have the experience and the relationship.
Marketing typically allows for people to tell you what you're supposed to experience and value, and what they want you to experience and value.
That's fine but it's bull shi t when it comes to life.
No one had to market Christianity to me, when I experienced real new birth and miracles that happened in the context of the name of Jesus Christ and the teaching of His love and power. When and as that occurred I got the message, loud and clear.
Weirwille was on the cusp of that with PFAL. Endlessly selling the PFAL class as an event that taught the Word was unnecessary and pretty much ended up stomping out the real life of the living power of the Word. People had teaching events filled with bible teaching and some mad scrabble at the end to speak in tongues. If that's all it was it's fine but it's not enough. There has to be something real that occurs during that, something that God markets, not people.
That's illustrated by the many people trying to "get back" to what they think they had (Jo Jo).
There's no .....getting back to or just enough that's good enough....that does any good. If you didn't get it the first time or think you did and have lost it, fuk it. Start fresh, know the love you want to live now, not as a memory - now.
People need the real thing. Then they don't give a crap what anyone thinks or does.
Even the "man born blind" didn't give a rats foot about the who/what/where and when of his healing. It was simple - I was blind, I can see, that Guy did it. If you don't like it, or want to talk about it, fine. I'm going to go look at stuff for the first time, it's cool.
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excathedra
good honest post, socks
i remember when i invited my mom and one of my sisters to an "america awakes" (nothing to do with you, socks :)) concert -- begged them to come -- to see what life is all about. guess what they came away with? why are all the people with buttons on only talking to and being nice to the people with buttons pinned on? mine was a college wow button
--
before i got "witnessed to" i was in my college dorm room alone listening to my godspell album and the song "prepare ye the way of the lord" -- someone knocked on my door to witness to me. it was a very personal experience. same thing when i led myself into speaking in tongues before i was grad. also recall ministering to a lovely fellow who was having a convulsion when i believed i had christ in me and could heal in his name.... more stuff....
but the more i got "in the way" the less personal christ became, you know? each day i try to recapture if you will what i lost....
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socks
I never met a button that could carry on a decent conversation, but I haven't met all buttons yet so I reserve judgment. :biglaugh:/>
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Steve Lortz
Thank you, excathedra. You are very gracious!
Love,
Steve
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skyrider
When it comes to "marketing" Christianity......it's ALREADY been done.
No catchy slogans.....no marketing campaigns.....no slick publications......no super bowl ads.
Act 2:22 ¶ Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
1) Who was this Jesus of Nazareth? --- [this lowly, little, unknown place?]
2) A man approved of God --- what? no blueblood pedigree? no intellectual prowess?
3) Among you --- not just some podium preacher or flim-flam hypocrite
4) By miracles and wonders and signs --- TALK ABOUT MARKETING FOR ALL TO SEE!
5) Which GOD DID by him in the midst of you --- *a product everyone should want*
6) As ye yourselves ALSO KNOW --- seen it, want it, need it, own it
*** 7) And, THAT'S what marketing is God-style
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skyrider
And....true Christianity continues on this marketing foundation.
2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead,
be ye reconciled to God.
TWI became a pathetic, manipulative operation to run pfal classes and exploit others' labor and tithing.
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chockfull
To me marketing in a business sense is segmenting the overall population into a small group to the point where a business' expertise most directly meets the needs of that segmented group.
The dichotomy to me is that Christianity is for the overall population, not just a segment - a gift given freely. Yet churches are man-made organizations that have a need to segment the overall population to reach members who will join thus increasing the church's numbers and bring in money. The big business of Christianity gets in the way of the genuine message and reach of Christianity.
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excathedra
i did way marketing selling the books door-to-door in north carolina under jerry jacks
socksieness you know i meant badge (of
)
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WordWolf
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Ex, was that the summer of '76? I lived in Greensboro doing summer NC Minuteman program(left in middle of July when I could not get a job)
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newlife
Must admit that I "Sold" PFAL to people when I wanted to sign them up for it. Telling them and showing them all the benefits of the class on the green card and telling them how it would dynamically change their lives. Now, maybe it had started out as witnessing the bible when I first got involved and it was all about God, but as the pressure grew to get people to take the class (Maybe I imagined that), I started doing anything I could to get people into the class.
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waysider
You didn't imagine it.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Anything? ;)
George
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newlife
Well, not "ANYTHING" LOL
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chockfull
Oh, we were pimping ourselves out like 3 dollar hookers to get people into those classes. Regardless of whatever actions we were taking.
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Steve Lortz
I broke down on Lightbearers and deliberately manipulated a couple to get them to sign up for PFAL. When we got back to Gunnison, the Corps Coordinator consoled all the people who hadn't got anybody signed up, and I thought, "I violated MY integrity for this!?!" That was when I started to plan leaving the in-residence training at the end of the block, and just before Geer read The Passing of a Patriarch.
On the topic of how things were marketed in the first century, in Advanced Greek we translated what the prof called a "mystery document." I thought it was a description of Alexander the Great suffering from a seizure disorder, but it turned out to be a description by Lucian of Samosata (a late-first, early-second century AD writer) writing about a travelling-magic-user who delivered prophecies and "healed" people. This magic-user was named Alexander the False Prophet. He would chew the roots of certain plants in order to foam at the mouth while he delivered his prophecies, and he would stand next to a box with a hole in it. After a person paid him for a prophecy, a snake (sock-puppet) would come out of the hole and move its mouth, and Alexander would throw his voice into the puppet snake, and deliver the same kind of prophecy that a person could find today in a Chinese fortune cookie.
Technology may be higher today, but we can still be just as stupid!
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
oh you poor steve. i did the same on lightbearers -- cornered someone ohgod
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excathedra
yeah so we got a "class together" minimum 7 i think big f'ing deal. never saw the people again -- didn't know them -- actually did we care?
when vince and wierwille and hot dogs came to campus, i always wondered what their results would have been had they just been out doing what we did
you know?
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Steve Lortz
Looking back on Lightbearers from the inside, it seems as if it were deliberately designed to prevent us from actually caring about any of the people we came in contact with, including our partners.
Love,
Steve
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