Tired of the lecturing...

[skyrider]

I don't think that's haughty or prideful.

I think it's intellectually cowardly.

Yeah.....that's a better way to describe his actions. The man designated as the head of twi's "research department"

would only work on wierwille-sanctioned "research." You know, the kind where nothing counters the pfal class [the

stolen class] or the legacy/behavior of wierwille.

Coming face-to-face with a tsunami of sexual predation AND NOT ADDRESS THE ISSUE IN A "CHRISTIAN MINISTRY"......is

unconscionable. Even the old testament, the ten commandments, marks the sin of adultery as a big no-no.

Only in a cult does one label all this sexual sin as "spiritual adultery."

[skyrider]

Like I said, anything is "easy to spot" if you're on a witch hunt.

Nice label, there. Of course, you don't counter my post above with any perspective.

How does the man in charge of the "research department" NOT address adultery?

Wouldn't that be sort of, ummm, foundational in a Christian ministry?

And, penworks (who worked in the research dept) has given accounts of walter's negligence

in other research. But hey, John......I know you're very fond of that little world of

half-truths, so I really don't expect much of a response from you.

[WordWolf]

Like I said, anything is "easy to spot" if you're on a witch hunt.

And anything is easy to MISS if you're dogmatic about it.

Well.....perhaps, there's a better word for someone [i.e. cumm!ns] who was in such lockstep loyalty to wierwille

that he would NOT consider Schoenhe!t's research on adultery [or other research that contradicted vp's "interpretation

of the verd." Adultery and/or sexual predation was wierwille's "secret doctrine" that caused a wave of destruction

throughout twi and mandated to the next mog [martyfail].....and Walter was blind to this????? Or, was he covering for

the legacy of a dead wierwille???

Too prideful to consider that wierwille might be "off the word."??

Or, prideful that vpw had taught him and he would stand for the wierwille doctrine?

All those years cumm!ns taught us *corps night*......and he couldn't even discern THE SIN OF ADULTERY IN TWI

even when a research paper is handed to him, and men like Ralph & JAL are dealing with a boatload of women who've

fallen prey to these mogs.

Is walter still pushing twi's doctrine, John?

Yeah, that's what I thought....and that's why

you jumped in to defend him.

<_</>

I don't think that's haughty or prideful.

I think it's intellectually cowardly.

Now, most of the other people on the list were haughty and prideful.

(Those still living still are, too.)

Yeah.....that's a better way to describe his actions. The man designated as the head of twi's "research department"

would only work on wierwille-sanctioned "research." You know, the kind where nothing counters the pfal class [the

stolen class] or the legacy/behavior of wierwille.

Coming face-to-face with a tsunami of sexual predation AND NOT ADDRESS THE ISSUE IN A "CHRISTIAN MINISTRY"......is

unconscionable. Even the old testament, the ten commandments, marks the sin of adultery as a big no-no.

Only in a cult does one label all this sexual sin as "spiritual adultery." :rolleyes:/>

Nice label, there. Of course, you don't counter my post above with any perspective.

How does the man in charge of the "research department" NOT address adultery?

Wouldn't that be sort of, ummm, foundational in a Christian ministry?

And, penworks (who worked in the research dept) has given accounts of walter's negligence

in other research. But hey, John......I know you're very fond of that little world of

half-truths, so I really don't expect much of a response from you.

[WordWolf]

It should be easy to spot intellectual cowardice if one is being honest.

If someone is more concerned about TRUTH and HONESTY than security,

then one will take TRUTHFUL positions even when it jeopardizes their security.

If one is intellectually cowardly

(or simply exercising intellectual cowardice at the moment)

then the truth will be BURIED or ATTACKED when it is inconvenient.

Let's see- which did Walter do when the decisive moment came?

After being the research head of a group and someone who's full-time job

was to see that proper research was done, which affects doctrine,

he himself failed to come up with anything saying

"adultery is wrong."

That's peculiar, since it doesn't take any kind of degree to find that

in Scripture.

Let's say it was a lapse because the subject never came up.

Ok, so it never came up-until one day, it did.

Someone came out with a research paper that demonstrated what nearly

every Christian knows, since it's so freaking easy to see-

that the Bible says adultery is wrong.

The HONEST response, the BRAVE response, is to review the paper,

see that it was actually correct

(it IS correct and anyone can see that-if it wasn't, then refuting

it was correct)

and then come out agreeing with it.

Specific actions would proceed from there.

The INTELLECTUALLY COWARDLY thing to do, the thing to do if one

cares more about a comfortable living and less about the

communications of God Almighty to us on the Earth,

is to bury the paper, claim it was error, threaten the person

into silence (easy if one's group has goons who have experience)

and spread propaganda against reading it.

Which did Walter do?

Walter buried the paper. When it came up again, he said it was

error. twi's bullies DID try to silence the writer-

for saying adultery is wrong-

and the official report from his office was that people would

GET POSSESSED reading a paper that said

ADULTERY IS WRONG.

That's pretty much a predictable response for someone who

is being intellectually cowardly.

Since then,

has he EVER come out with a repudiation and said

"It was actually correct, but I was being strongarmed into

disagreeing with it" now that he has had DECADES to reconsider

and now that we can all see that this "get possessed if you

read it" thing was exposed as NONSENSE?

No.

He has, however, maintained a comfortable career as a

Bible teacher.

Intellectually, that's COWARDICE when the heat was on,

and determination to maintain that cowardly position

once the heat was off. If he came forth and told the

truth now, he WOULD NOT wake up like others did in twi,

with someone at his door, armed and telling him to get

out now.

On the other hand,

there were others who did the right thing even when

it was inconvenient to them, when others THREATENED

them. Try reviewing what Ralph did and what was

done to him as soon as adultery problems were brought

to his attention. I don't owe John S anything-

and I certainly don't raise him to hero status-

but HE did the right thing on adultery AND showed

courage when the heat was on.

Walter did the opposite-and was part of the reason

heat WAS on John S.

Like I said, intellectual cowardice.

[outandabout]

I remember right before I left all the broo-haha abuot Scheinheit's paper. I finally got a copy and read it and couldn't understand all the extreme responses of the higher-ups conerning this paper. They even fired some one who received it in the mail and didn't read it.

They convicted THEMSELVES by their reaction. The paper itself is simply a logical, Word-based explanation of why adultery is wrong. Duh

[Allan]

I remember right before I left all the broo-haha abuot Scheinheit's paper. I finally got a copy and read it and couldn't understand all the extreme responses of the higher-ups conerning this paper. They even fired some one who received it in the mail and didn't read it.

They convicted THEMSELVES by their reaction. The paper itself is simply a logical, Word-based explanation of why adultery is wrong. Duh

And my point really, was that there are still a lot of 'b' grade ar$% wipes involved in twi ! just because the Galens and Johniams may have met them briefly at ROA or been part way through the corps with them doesn't necessarily make them an expert on how they áre' as a human being ! (with all due respect) beauty being in the eye of the beholder sort of thing.

[Ham]

I find it hard to believe Walter was a math major..maybe he skipped the class that gave one an introduction on how to construct a proof..

[waysider]

I'm often intrigued by the way people who weren't there suddenly know exactly what happened.

People who weren't in the Corps or FellowLaborers or on HQ Staff somehow know what it was like to be there.

Fascinating.

[Ham]

Yes, it is. It's like military experts because they watch old films about Patton.. or something.

[skyrider]

And, if we're going to discuss INTELLECTUALLY COWARDICE......maybe we should revisit the

Christian Family and Sex class [CFS] and see how wierwille covered "adultery."

Oh, he didn't.......shocker.

Lots of pictures and slang terms for breasts, vaginas and penises....but NOT setting the

boundaries of sex in a Christian marriage/family/setting. If no boundaries are stipulated,

then how does one know when and if they've been crossed?

Then again, is this intellectually cowardice.....or is this manipulative and exploitive?

Wierwille didn't set his organization on solid, biblical footing.....and walter seemed to

follow in this selective, bible teachings and side-stepped "adultery" as well. What a bunch

of half-baked truths. For reasons like this......wierwille and the wannabe mogs hold little

credibility when you peel off the layers of this onion.

[chockfull]

I find it hard to believe Walter was a math major..maybe he skipped the class that gave one an introduction on how to construct a proof..

But he did pick up how to bore your students to tears teaching. And how to wear bad bow ties.

I remember right before I left all the broo-haha abuot Scheinheit's paper. I finally got a copy and read it and couldn't understand all the extreme responses of the higher-ups conerning this paper. They even fired some one who received it in the mail and didn't read it.

They convicted THEMSELVES by their reaction. The paper itself is simply a logical, Word-based explanation of why adultery is wrong. Duh

No doubt. That adultery paper is like the most simple word study on the topic you can find.

Edited April 26, 2013 by chockfull

[Twinky]

Christian Family & Sex....

Now if you delete the words "Christian" and "Family" you have a more accurate description of what that "class" was about.

Or you could even more accurately describe it as soft porn.

Thank God, I don't remember anything from it, at least I think not. I do remember being very disappointed - and shocked - by the content. And lack of content.

Just yet another vehicle for VPW to spread his anti-Christian, anti-Godly-lifestyle morals and ideas.

[Allan]

Christian Family & Sex....

Now if you delete the words "Christian" and "Family" you have a more accurate description of what that "class" was about.

Or you could even more accurately describe it as soft porn.

Thank God, I don't remember anything from it, at least I think not. I do remember being very disappointed - and shocked - by the content. And lack of content.

Just yet another vehicle for VPW to spread his anti-Christian, anti-Godly-lifestyle morals and ideas.

lol...same, I can't even remember the content, but I bet that's where a number of the mini-mogs got ideas in their heads from...fiery darts maybe ?? hmmmnnn.... Hiya twinky btw !!!!

[skyrider]

He has, however, maintained a comfortable career as a

Bible teacher.

Today's "Bible teacher" is so watered-down and diluted that there's no potency to it. Anyone can do it.

The world is full of those who impart knowledge and partake of the traditions of men.

The valiant men of truth and integrity are hard to find.

[socks]

the Adultery page of Shaneheights: John's paper was a simple statement that bore no malice or controversy on face value.

I can only speak from my own conversations with Walter Cummins at that time, and the author.

Walter didn't have any significant issue with the paper's content. As noted here, any idiot who's read the Bible even a little would recognize it wasn't new science or theology.

The Way had teaching on adultery that pointed a lot of the references to a larger context of "spiritual adultery", or "cheating on God" in todays parlance.

I never understood that to negate anything to do with the actual topic of marriage vows, "cheating" on one's spouse or any related matters.

Neither did Walter, as one of the architects of much of the Corps teaching curriculum and presentations over the years. He sounded pretty clear on the topic to me anyway,

meaning the other stuff didn't cloud his understanding of what adultery was in a marriage between two people, etc. He told me he felt that while it was a very important issue, and he wasn't aware - his word - of the accusations and all their histories. Keep in mind that while there was substance that also a lot of smoke was being blown up butts by John L y n N who was - in my opinion - trying to divert attention from his own proclivities and accountability and focus on VP and others. It was amazing to me - and I spoke to him right before he was "fired" and after - that he excused his own actions so easily as those of a man now changed - but hammered on VP, Don and Howard so hard. Not that that they didn't need confrontation but rather that he did a good job of separating himself from them. Many people had no idea then or even now of the trail Lynn left behind, he covered it all up pretty quick. But JALS's just one example of the chaos that some people created to accommodate - in my opinion - their own ends.

To Walter however the 'adultery paper" wasn't the critical one to divide or join together around. It needed to be handled, yes but he supported the moratorium Geer had recommended on "new" research.

Now - of course this wasn't new anything, let alone "research" - it was a practical matter, not a doctrinal issue. And to me that was where the BS piled up.

How and when and what to do next, to proceed, to come together to begin to get things worked on, discussed, fixed, agreed on, etc. etc. etc.

There was a LOT of chaotic communication between all sides and parties at that time, and a lot of hot headed people venting and posturing about many different things.

Some of it was honest and usable and some wasn't. Schoenheit was a nice enough guy at that time but was kind of a goober when it came to normal day to day practical matters, or seemed so to me, he was kind of in a head space that I didn't understand. But th much maligned "Adultery Paper" was none of that, and actually could have been a catalyst for some good.

The song coming out of the Way Nash was to hmmmmmmmmm.....pray, and then read the Bible and then pray some more and then pray again so you could be sure you'd prayed. Then take PFAL again for the 1,000th time because that will help you to focus when you pray again which would be soon. And then pray some more.

Once you realized that the gang back there had no means of supporting a restructuring efffort, healing effort or even just a sit down and talk about it effort - it didn't really matter. In fact if you were praying for answers the answer for many of us was get the f-k as far away from those mooks as possible before they blow up - which they did soon enough, but not like a lot of people expected.

[skyrider]

Nice summation of that sliver of time, socks. Thanks.

[socks]

Thanks.

I do think that I learned something through all of that though that's held me in good stead over the years as the evangelical movement has picked up steam.

Namely, the endless sifting and tossing of the bible's content can lead people into a kind of insanity where they don't see the obvious and the most basic things clearly.

Simple things become complex, by virtue of the thought processes they apply. On the one hand they preach how simple the Word is and how "easily entreated" it can be.

Yet when you get down to cases there's NOTHING simple or easy about it. Your world's turned up side down with every transaction of life. Even simple involvement in normal day to day matters becomes icky sticky messy affairs of trying to re label everything and put a new happy-god face on it.

Sure - it's ego. You say something's "good" and they say oh, my - you mean "best" don't you? No, I mean good dip, and if that's too complicated for you please don't use the bathroom stalls when I'm in there because you're probably not going to be able to use the toilet paper without getting into trouble and that's not trouble I want to be a part of.

The adultery stuff is like that - diversion, avoidance, obfuscation and redirection while applying the most unctuous coercion this side of an enema. If a person doesn't know what adultery means, it's not hard to find out. There's little disagreement on it. Jesus clarified God's thoughts and intents on the matter. It's only complicated to someone who....has something to hide from God. Lie to God, fine but your prayer life will start sucking sand. Thus - the domino effect, etc. etc.

The Way: Lying liars that lie to cover up the lies others they're lying about told when they were able to lie.

[skyrider]

Namely, the endless sifting and tossing of the bible's content can lead people into a kind of insanity where they don't see the obvious and the most basic things clearly.

Simple things become complex, by virtue of the thought processes they apply. On the one hand they preach how simple the Word is and how "easily entreated" it can be.

Yet when you get down to cases there's NOTHING simple or easy about it. Your world's turned up side down with every transaction of life. Even simple involvement in normal day to day matters becomes icky sticky messy affairs of trying to re label everything and put a new happy-god face on it.

When I reflect upon those turbulent times in twi......I see two things:

1) The simplicity that's in Christ and truth was a road few traveled

2) Where envy and strife resides, many wear masks to confuse and work evil

Twi leadership and corps program created an environment of competition where many corps leaders were vying for wierwille's

approval and/or marking their alpha male territories. Upon vpw's death, the throes of evil were unleashed.

James 3:16 For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work.

[johniam]

Whew! Let me get this straight. Walter was head of research so he HAD to be privy to the bad stuff, but Ralph D was trunk leader, international outreach cordo, etc. but he says he had no idea what was going on and you blindly believe him. Nice double standard.

Is it not true that you are the self appointed pope of gsc and since Ralph has kissed your ring by being penitent you absolve him, but Walter hasn't been penitent yet so you can't absolve him...aww...whatever.

In a related matter, Kris in her book says she was at Gunnison in VPs office and he left the room for a bit and she saw what he was writing and it said unflattering things about jews and she was horrified. She made it sound like she JUST THEN realized VP had issues with jews. What? I don't think so. Stanley Reahard posted on waydale that in 1981 she was at a night owl at HQ with VP and he said that the USA fought on the wrong side during WW2. Kris' account happened AFTER 1981. She knew!

But you certainly absolve her as well.

I don't give a damn about kissing your papal ring.

[chockfull]

Namely, the endless sifting and tossing of the bible's content can lead people into a kind of insanity where they don't see the obvious and the most basic things clearly.

You mean like where Corps night teachings devolve into practical advice on how to read labels on cans of food? I'm still so glad I heard that one and to learn that the ingredient lists on cans weren't put there to distract me, but that instead I should read them.

[waysider]

Whew! Let me get this straight. Walter was head of research so he HAD to be privy to the bad stuff, but Ralph D was trunk leader, international outreach cordo, etc. but he says he had no idea what was going on and you blindly believe him. Nice double standard.

Is it not true that you are the self appointed pope of gsc and since Ralph has kissed your ring by being penitent you absolve him, but Walter hasn't been penitent yet so you can't absolve him...aww...whatever.

In a related matter, Kris in her book says she was at Gunnison in VPs office and he left the room for a bit and she saw what he was writing and it said unflattering things about jews and she was horrified. She made it sound like she JUST THEN realized VP had issues with jews. What? I don't think so. Stanley Reahard posted on waydale that in 1981 she was at a night owl at HQ with VP and he said that the USA fought on the wrong side during WW2. Kris' account happened AFTER 1981. She knew!

But you certainly absolve her as well.

I don't give a damn about kissing your papal ring.

And now, you know too, John.

So, why do you still hold on?

Edited April 27, 2013 by waysider

[chockfull]

Whew! Let me get this straight. Walter was head of research so he HAD to be privy to the bad stuff, but Ralph D was trunk leader, international outreach cordo, etc. but he says he had no idea what was going on and you blindly believe him. Nice double standard.

not quite sure what you're on about here, but ralph said in his audio interview he was privy to all this info on adultery and it came up in the "yak" twig or whatever with the BOT. All that stuff was a major part of ralph and a group of top leaders leaving.

walter sounds like he was playing politics. he also did not say he had no idea what was going on. he said he was not aware of all the accusations and their histories. that is quite different. in other words he had probably heard rumors he ignored, but since nothing official had come up he wasn't accountable for it. that's a little more in alignment with reality there.

and what's all this about popes, rings, and absolvement? I mean I hear that the new pope is a humble man averse to outward show, but unless you're a catholic I doubt anyone would care about such things.

and you're introducing a conspiracy theory into kris skedgell's book? surrounding when she knew about VP's conspiracy theories? that's a little twisted up for me.

Dude, if that's your brain on Wierwille, I'd just stop. It isn't doing any good for you. Logically, a brain on Wierwille will lead you down the road towards self aggrandizement, adultery, plagiarism, and conspiracy theory.

[excathedra]

But JALS's just one example of the chaos that some people created to accommodate - in my opinion - their own ends.

that's insightful and to me we all do this in one form or another and some of us don't even know when we were doing it

don't know if that makes any sense

JAL and Pat ohmygod

sad that walter would buy into anything geer was peddling

ralph seems like a good guy, but i don't buy his whole innocent thing nor do i buy my own

ohmy i'm glad the way is in my past

i've heard from people who thought kris was less than truthful because they were friends with david d. and got to hear another side blah blah blah isn't that true about everything

gotta go for a bit

[socks]

Rings and Popes, not my area. Can't comment on that.

Walter, as far as that goes, I can't say more than what I said. What people really know/knew or whatever, I can't say. I just didn't get the impression he knew about any of that stuff. Maybe he did, maybe he'd say different today. I don't know.

This discussion is very academic to me, a matter of very distant past events that are important to those who were affected but not of much importance today unless, I don't know, someone's still affected and is trying to resolve the stuff. I advise a person to resolve it for themselves to the end they're satisfied at whatever levels they need to be and then on with life hopefully smarter.

That's why I don't have any problem discussing it for all it's ugly side - I have a very good time discussing the beautiful side, too. I am both, in my own ways. It is what it is and to deny it would cause the sort of cognitive dissonance that occurs when you know a thing to be true but deny it, for whatever reasons. I find it's popular in our modern culture to re label everything to softer language that removes direct responsibility.

All sin, all do wrong, all do right, all can aspire to do good, all can be the worst bastards imaginable. That's the human condition. We need to get used to it to survive and live in ways that will reflect and support the conditions we want to see. Live the love we want to have. If we can't do it ourselves it's dumb to expect others to.

Who knew what, when and why and how? Who cares, at this point. No one did a dammed thing that made a difference in the end or we wouldn't be talking about it now, about whatever they knew or didn't know about anything. People that were hiding this stuff from others did, people that lied, did and those who were lied to believed it and etc etc etc.

People lie, people do good and bad. I say, accept that. Embrace the horror. But don't become it.

To reiterate, I don't care who or what disagrees or agrees. Delete this post immediately if you don't like it and you can. I'll manage okay without it, trust me. You all do the same. />

[waysider]

Thou shalt not steal.

Hmmm. Probably means "spiritual" stealing.

(note to self: Speak in tongues more.)

Oh, Wait!

That's not all of it. It's got something to do with "administrations", too.

hahahahahaha!

(I crack myself up sometimes.)