I had decided that if I do an update or new edition to my book, that I would in fact remove hard phrases against TWI and Wierwille or anyone else. Not because I am pleasing anyone else, but because the book carries on the bitterness I had in my heart. In the future, should I do this, I may still remember what offenses had been done to me even if I try to forget. But at least I would look on them without bitterness or hatred, and instead remember that we were once young and passionate, and emotions ruled the younger more than the old.
Only you, Eagle, know of a "bitterness or hatred" that you've held in your heart against twi.
For me, I come at this from a totally different perspective. In telling one's story and life experiences,
the journey speaks for itself. Books of this genre are invaluable for understanding the dark shadows of
deception, exploitation and destruction.......and setting the captives free.
End of Times. Maybe what you are seeing is more personal.. end of what. Myself. Either: I am going to be absorbed into nothing, or I am going to be absorbed into everything. Just saying..
If you consider topology.. or modern geometry, nothing is everything.
am I that "precious".. it depends on the Creator. I hope that it is so..
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times....Hey, buddy, ya got the time?
I'm not bitter. I'm not even sure I ever was. Disappointed, disillusioned, angry...maybe. Bitter? I don't think so. It is what it is and it was what it was. We all got sucked into a crazy scam. Oh, yeah. I forgot "embarrassed". Definitely embarrassed.
I'm not bitter. Just here to tell my story, as boring as it may be.
I do have high hopes that by exposing all that I am able concerning modern day TWI, that some poor unsuspecting soul is warned before being ensnared, or some ensnared soul regains their sight and frees themselves from an abusive cult.
I'm willing to explain that to Christ, and if I am wrong then I can learn what's right.
I love how TWI chews people up, spits them out, then labels them as "bitter".
That's right on up there with a pedophile abusing children, then bullying, ridiculing, and ostracizing them when the are grown for developing personality disorders to cope with the abuse.
Something that I read that is pertinent....."Forgiveness doesn't excuse their behavior. Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying your heart.":
Something that I read that is pertinent....."Forgiveness doesn't excuse their behavior. Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying your heart.":
Nice little phrase.....but, in my opinion, it misses the mark.
I know this is not the doctrinal forum.....but a quick search on blueletterbible.com
on "forgiveness" is accompanied with forgiveness of sins in all 5 references
[after pentecost] and their sin separates them from the lord and savior.
Their behavior (sin) is "destroying THEIR heart" -- not mine.
.
When this topic pops up here it usually leaves me scratching my head in wonder and a little confused.....if it is a biblical perspective people are after they should consider the biblical responses in scripture to the false teachers of the day. There is some seriously harsh and damming language and I guess we could could accuse Peter, Paul, Jude and others of being bitter or we could consider scripture unforgiving. False teachers are people actively working to separate people from Jesus Christ. Leave them alone. That is what the bible tells us. Minimizing who they are and what they do...is sinful.
As far as forgiving being for our own hearts and mental well being.....hmm, self-centered, self-concerned and self-focused forgiveness.....well, that is an interesting perspective.
Nice little phrase.....but, in my opinion, it misses the mark.
I know this is not the doctrinal forum.....but a quick search on blueletterbible.com
on "forgiveness" is accompanied with forgiveness of sins in all 5 references
[after pentecost] and their sin separates them from the lord and savior.
Their behavior (sin) is "destroying THEIR heart" -- not mine.
.
I wasn't thinking from a doctrinal perspective when I made my post. I do like your point, though. Their behavior is certainly destroying their heart. I am of the opinion that you can also let their behavior destroy your heart if you allow it, hence bitterness, anger, and mistrust of people in general as a result of mistreatment in the past. From your statement you seem to imply that you do not let the results ot their actions get into your head and sour your outlook on life. That is a good way to live, and I attempt to live that way, also. However, if I ever find that I need to have to have a doctrinal basis to forgive someone, then Matthew 18:21-22 will be good enough for me.
When this topic pops up here it usually leaves me scratching my head in wonder and a little confused.....if it is a biblical perspective people are after they should consider the biblical responses in scripture to the false teachers of the day. There is some seriously harsh and damming language and I guess we could could accuse Peter, Paul, Jude and others of being bitter or we could consider scripture unforgiving. False teachers are people actively working to separate people from Jesus Christ. Leave them alone. That is what the bible tells us. Minimizing who they are and what they do...is sinful.
As far as forgiving being for our own hearts and mental well being.....hmm, self-centered, self-concerned and self-focused forgiveness.....well, that is an interesting perspective.
Wow...I didn't get that from that quote at all. Are you really forgiving someone if you are just thinking of yourself? That is more of being on an ego trip than forgiveness, isn't it? If you are truly forgiving someone, aren't you supposed to be doing it for them, in spite of what they did? That is my understanding, anyway. You do prevent their behavior from destroying your heart if you truly forgive.
Wow...I didn't get that from that quote at all. Are you really forgiving someone if you are just thinking of yourself? That is more of being on an ego trip than forgiveness, isn't it? If you are truly forgiving someone, aren't you supposed to be doing it for them, in spite of what they did? That is my understanding, anyway. You do prevent their behavior from destroying your heart if you truly forgive.
I don't know....I don't excuse or forgive their behavior.....I don't actually believe that is sound. Their behavior is wrong and wrong on a deeply insidious level. Wrong is wrong and they are not my brothers or sisters or "Uncles" who have come to me and repented. I don't think their behavior has or will harm my heart as long as I understand right from wrong. But, if forgiveness is about therapeutic relief for a confused heart ..... yeah that is self-centered.
Were not talking about a passing transgression but about people who lead others to destruction....if scripture is to be believed. Yeah, I think that is wrong and I don't think that makes me bitter......forgiveness requires repentance and repentance means change.
This is always such an oh so fun topic. Mostly because in an unhealthy setting like a cult, abusers use this concept and verses behind it to bully and intimidate their victims. Bullies use this verse to try and tell the downtrodden they are abusing to "forgive" them. This is an intimidation tactic, and the ultimate goal is to retain control of the victim and keep them enslaved to the bully's will.
I mean people say some really obnoxious things surrounding this topic. And it is pretty prevalent. I mean like this little gem here of a word study:
Countless women who are raped develop awful emotional and spiritual bondage. It's not because they were raped, but because they allowed the trauma to get to them. Many women are in bondage today because they became bitter under the surface about what was done to them years ago. I believe Clinton Clark once said that from his observation, it seemed that boys who are molested by older men and forgave the molester and forgot about it right away, walked away without picking up unclean homosexual spirits, but those who allowed the trauma to bother them walked away with homosexual spirits and other bondages.
Scripture never is intended to be used as an intimidation tactic by bullies. Yes that is an obvious statement. But it seems to need to be continuously stated due to idiots who write word studies up like the above.
I mean from my perspective, the author of the above paragraph should be put in a prison cell for 2 months with a 300 lb. roommate named "Bubba". Then after he gets out I "might" be convinced to listen to his pontifications on whether or not it was the rape that caused the trauma or whether it was the author letting it get to him that caused it.
So many times when I hear this subject come up, it seems like the person insisting on forgiveness is also asking for the questionable action to be forgotten. I think there needs to be some sort of mental demarcation that separates the act from the perpetrator. Are we supposed to forgive/forget the wrongful acts that are committed against us or the people who commit them? I, personally, think it's foolish to forget the wrongful acts. That would be like forgetting it was the fire that burned your hand. We remember so we don't make the same painful mistake again.
"Many times when a person is hurt from past abuse, they will begin to think that perhaps what happened to them, was deserved because of something they did or the way that they were. This is not true. Abuse is never acceptable, even if a child was being out of order. Parental love disciplines and corrects, but never abuses."
He's not saying the abuser didn't harm the person, or that it was acceptable.
"Abuse is never acceptable." He wasn't writing TO the abuser or rapist in either
case, but about the survivor, the victim.
I'm not saying I agree with this website or this writer, but there's a completely
legitimate point there. I think rapists should face FAR worse punishments than
US law permits. However, I also think that the survivor needs to get to a place
of recovery where they're not eaten up with rage, anger, hatred, loathing
(of self or others), and can live with healthy emotions.
I've seen people whose lives seem to be centered around nothing but perceived
harm from others-sometimes real, sometimes imagined. They're in as much
bondage years later to their abuser/attacker as they were at the time of
the attack/abuse. They need to survive their pain, their suffering, and learn
to live again somehow, to get through "normal" days that aren't centered around
what they experienced, where their thoughts don't continuously circle past
suffering, past abuse, past attacks.
There's the trauma of what was done (or perceived in some cases I've seen),
and there's what happens in the person's head afterwards. Many people slowly
rebuild themselves, and become stronger eventually. Some people refuse to
and continuously revisit it- not to achieve closure, but to make the suffering
an integrated part of their daily routine. They can't go back and reverse
the abuse, but they don't have to reconstruct it into their emotional lives.
In that respect, they will have to learn to forgive THEMSELVES for what they
were not responsible for at all- but they may feel guilty for nonetheless,
irrationally. It's like "survivor's guilt"- where some people do their best
to survive, and some survive and some don't, and the survivors feel like they
could somehow have caused the others to survive and feel bad about having
survived. It's one thing to have lived through such an incident, and another
to get past it and live life without it hanging over every minute of every
You know, there's are whole fields of psychology and psychiatry that have developed advanced learning with helping victims recover. However, when you bring scriptures into it, somehow people are a lot stupider.
They think that "counseling" is just reading a person a Bible verse and that will magically change things. It doesn't. It takes more work, including understanding how the human mind and emotions work, and working with a victim over time. And when you have people running their mouth and lecturing victims in the fashion that article comes off, it actually does more damage than help to the victim. It keeps them focused on what is wrong with them, not what is wrong with their abuser. And it keeps them in the same cycle of victimization. It delays their healing and recovery.
What you really don't understand is the impact on victims of these statements. The author writes the paragraph I quoted, and IT DOESN'T MATTER what else he says. The negative impact of that paragraph will FAR OUTWEIGH in a victims mind the one sentence written later or in a different article saying "abuse is never acceptable." This is the EXACT SAME THING TWI does. They may SAY "abuse is never acceptable", but their ACTIONS are to shelter the abuser, shift the focus of attention on to the abused, and basically blame the abused.
So many times when I hear this subject come up, it seems like the person insisting on forgiveness is also asking for the questionable action to be forgotten. I think there needs to be some sort of mental demarcation that separates the act from the perpetrator. Are we supposed to forgive/forget the wrongful acts that are committed against us or the people who commit them? I, personally, think it's foolish to forget the wrongful acts. That would be like forgetting it was the fire that burned your hand. We remember so we don't make the same painful mistake again.
Forgiveness is one of those subjects that has this "spiritually correct" teflon version.....ie the victim is supposed to *forgive* the perpetrator and move on in life. And, in christian circles, a couple of verses on forgiveness or cute one-liners and the victim is on the road to wholeness, again.
Oh, that's right......don't want that "root of bitterness" in there to trouble and defile you.
How often that verse is used for submission. Uuugh.
If some are going to take the scripture route, then why not II Corinthians 7: Confronting Sinners
...1) speaking the truth in love
...2) sinner/perpetrator hears
...3) godly sorrow
...4) repentance (change of heart)
...5) fear and trembling (respect & obedience)
...6) salvation (actions/wholeness)
...7) restored standing in household of faith
THEN......they (abusers/sinners) will approve themselves to be clear of this matter (sin). [iI Cor. 7:11]
Christians need to STOP sheltering these abuses and abusers!
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geisha779
When this topic pops up here it usually leaves me scratching my head in wonder and a little confused.....if it is a biblical perspective people are after they should consider the biblical responses in
Eagle
Sometimes I wonder about the days we are in, whether this is in fact the End Times. I do believe this is true. My most important personal goal now, to me anyway, is to learn to forgive anyone who was
smarter
Something that I read that is pertinent....."Forgiveness doesn't excuse their behavior. Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying your heart.":
skyrider
Only you, Eagle, know of a "bitterness or hatred" that you've held in your heart against twi.
For me, I come at this from a totally different perspective. In telling one's story and life experiences,
the journey speaks for itself. Books of this genre are invaluable for understanding the dark shadows of
deception, exploitation and destruction.......and setting the captives free.
Book story -- Click Here
.
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Ham
End of Times. Maybe what you are seeing is more personal.. end of what. Myself. Either: I am going to be absorbed into nothing, or I am going to be absorbed into everything. Just saying..
If you consider topology.. or modern geometry, nothing is everything.
am I that "precious".. it depends on the Creator. I hope that it is so..
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waysider
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times....Hey, buddy, ya got the time?
I'm not bitter. I'm not even sure I ever was. Disappointed, disillusioned, angry...maybe. Bitter? I don't think so. It is what it is and it was what it was. We all got sucked into a crazy scam. Oh, yeah. I forgot "embarrassed". Definitely embarrassed.
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OldSkool
I'm not bitter. Just here to tell my story, as boring as it may be.
I do have high hopes that by exposing all that I am able concerning modern day TWI, that some poor unsuspecting soul is warned before being ensnared, or some ensnared soul regains their sight and frees themselves from an abusive cult.
I'm willing to explain that to Christ, and if I am wrong then I can learn what's right.
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chockfull
I love how TWI chews people up, spits them out, then labels them as "bitter".
That's right on up there with a pedophile abusing children, then bullying, ridiculing, and ostracizing them when the are grown for developing personality disorders to cope with the abuse.
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skyrider
And....how offshoots tell you how to "forget the past, but embrace the good and stop being bitter" wherein
they desire to plug your giving, your money to their outfit BEFORE YOU'VE STEPPED BACK LONG ENOUGH TO CONNECT THE DOTS.
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OldSkool
I was courted by two offshoots as I exited TWI. This is exactly what I was told and how they operated. <_<
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Ham
I was "lucky". I was out for over a year before the offshoots found out.
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smarter
Something that I read that is pertinent....."Forgiveness doesn't excuse their behavior. Forgiveness prevents their behavior from destroying your heart.":
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excathedra
yes i like that too, smarter
eagle, what makes you think it might be the end of times? i don't think anyone knows
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Eagle
Very good response.
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waysider
That's the part that seems to get lost in the conversation.
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OldSkool
Especially if the conversation is with an offshoot leader trying to get you on board their organization to move their work based on VPW.
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skyrider
Nice little phrase.....but, in my opinion, it misses the mark.
I know this is not the doctrinal forum.....but a quick search on blueletterbible.com
on "forgiveness" is accompanied with forgiveness of sins in all 5 references
[after pentecost] and their sin separates them from the lord and savior.
Their behavior (sin) is "destroying THEIR heart" -- not mine.
.
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geisha779
When this topic pops up here it usually leaves me scratching my head in wonder and a little confused.....if it is a biblical perspective people are after they should consider the biblical responses in scripture to the false teachers of the day. There is some seriously harsh and damming language and I guess we could could accuse Peter, Paul, Jude and others of being bitter or we could consider scripture unforgiving. False teachers are people actively working to separate people from Jesus Christ. Leave them alone. That is what the bible tells us. Minimizing who they are and what they do...is sinful.
As far as forgiving being for our own hearts and mental well being.....hmm, self-centered, self-concerned and self-focused forgiveness.....well, that is an interesting perspective.
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smarter
I wasn't thinking from a doctrinal perspective when I made my post. I do like your point, though. Their behavior is certainly destroying their heart. I am of the opinion that you can also let their behavior destroy your heart if you allow it, hence bitterness, anger, and mistrust of people in general as a result of mistreatment in the past. From your statement you seem to imply that you do not let the results ot their actions get into your head and sour your outlook on life. That is a good way to live, and I attempt to live that way, also. However, if I ever find that I need to have to have a doctrinal basis to forgive someone, then Matthew 18:21-22 will be good enough for me.
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smarter
Wow...I didn't get that from that quote at all. Are you really forgiving someone if you are just thinking of yourself? That is more of being on an ego trip than forgiveness, isn't it? If you are truly forgiving someone, aren't you supposed to be doing it for them, in spite of what they did? That is my understanding, anyway. You do prevent their behavior from destroying your heart if you truly forgive.
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geisha779
I don't know....I don't excuse or forgive their behavior.....I don't actually believe that is sound. Their behavior is wrong and wrong on a deeply insidious level. Wrong is wrong and they are not my brothers or sisters or "Uncles" who have come to me and repented. I don't think their behavior has or will harm my heart as long as I understand right from wrong. But, if forgiveness is about therapeutic relief for a confused heart ..... yeah that is self-centered.
Were not talking about a passing transgression but about people who lead others to destruction....if scripture is to be believed. Yeah, I think that is wrong and I don't think that makes me bitter......forgiveness requires repentance and repentance means change.
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chockfull
This is always such an oh so fun topic. Mostly because in an unhealthy setting like a cult, abusers use this concept and verses behind it to bully and intimidate their victims. Bullies use this verse to try and tell the downtrodden they are abusing to "forgive" them. This is an intimidation tactic, and the ultimate goal is to retain control of the victim and keep them enslaved to the bully's will.
I mean people say some really obnoxious things surrounding this topic. And it is pretty prevalent. I mean like this little gem here of a word study:
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/bitterness.php
Scripture never is intended to be used as an intimidation tactic by bullies. Yes that is an obvious statement. But it seems to need to be continuously stated due to idiots who write word studies up like the above.
I mean from my perspective, the author of the above paragraph should be put in a prison cell for 2 months with a 300 lb. roommate named "Bubba". Then after he gets out I "might" be convinced to listen to his pontifications on whether or not it was the rape that caused the trauma or whether it was the author letting it get to him that caused it.
Morons.
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waysider
So many times when I hear this subject come up, it seems like the person insisting on forgiveness is also asking for the questionable action to be forgotten. I think there needs to be some sort of mental demarcation that separates the act from the perpetrator. Are we supposed to forgive/forget the wrongful acts that are committed against us or the people who commit them? I, personally, think it's foolish to forget the wrongful acts. That would be like forgetting it was the fire that burned your hand. We remember so we don't make the same painful mistake again.
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WordWolf
I think the author communicated himself poorly, and was addressing something completely different
than what you addressed, and left out what you were looking for. He (she?) was addressing the
long-term consequences of surviving rape/abuse, and about learning to live with YOURSELF
and not spend all day hating the rapist/abuser.
On a different page, they said this:
http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/inner_healing_101.php
"Many times when a person is hurt from past abuse, they will begin to think that perhaps what happened to them, was deserved because of something they did or the way that they were. This is not true. Abuse is never acceptable, even if a child was being out of order. Parental love disciplines and corrects, but never abuses."
He's not saying the abuser didn't harm the person, or that it was acceptable.
"Abuse is never acceptable." He wasn't writing TO the abuser or rapist in either
case, but about the survivor, the victim.
I'm not saying I agree with this website or this writer, but there's a completely
legitimate point there. I think rapists should face FAR worse punishments than
US law permits. However, I also think that the survivor needs to get to a place
of recovery where they're not eaten up with rage, anger, hatred, loathing
(of self or others), and can live with healthy emotions.
I've seen people whose lives seem to be centered around nothing but perceived
harm from others-sometimes real, sometimes imagined. They're in as much
bondage years later to their abuser/attacker as they were at the time of
the attack/abuse. They need to survive their pain, their suffering, and learn
to live again somehow, to get through "normal" days that aren't centered around
what they experienced, where their thoughts don't continuously circle past
suffering, past abuse, past attacks.
There's the trauma of what was done (or perceived in some cases I've seen),
and there's what happens in the person's head afterwards. Many people slowly
rebuild themselves, and become stronger eventually. Some people refuse to
and continuously revisit it- not to achieve closure, but to make the suffering
an integrated part of their daily routine. They can't go back and reverse
the abuse, but they don't have to reconstruct it into their emotional lives.
In that respect, they will have to learn to forgive THEMSELVES for what they
were not responsible for at all- but they may feel guilty for nonetheless,
irrationally. It's like "survivor's guilt"- where some people do their best
to survive, and some survive and some don't, and the survivors feel like they
could somehow have caused the others to survive and feel bad about having
survived. It's one thing to have lived through such an incident, and another
to get past it and live life without it hanging over every minute of every
day.
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chockfull
You know, there's are whole fields of psychology and psychiatry that have developed advanced learning with helping victims recover. However, when you bring scriptures into it, somehow people are a lot stupider.
They think that "counseling" is just reading a person a Bible verse and that will magically change things. It doesn't. It takes more work, including understanding how the human mind and emotions work, and working with a victim over time. And when you have people running their mouth and lecturing victims in the fashion that article comes off, it actually does more damage than help to the victim. It keeps them focused on what is wrong with them, not what is wrong with their abuser. And it keeps them in the same cycle of victimization. It delays their healing and recovery.
What you really don't understand is the impact on victims of these statements. The author writes the paragraph I quoted, and IT DOESN'T MATTER what else he says. The negative impact of that paragraph will FAR OUTWEIGH in a victims mind the one sentence written later or in a different article saying "abuse is never acceptable." This is the EXACT SAME THING TWI does. They may SAY "abuse is never acceptable", but their ACTIONS are to shelter the abuser, shift the focus of attention on to the abused, and basically blame the abused.
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waysider
Telling abuse victims they need to get over it is like telling poor people they need to get money.
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skyrider
Forgiveness is one of those subjects that has this "spiritually correct" teflon version.....ie the victim is supposed to *forgive* the perpetrator and move on in life. And, in christian circles, a couple of verses on forgiveness or cute one-liners and the victim is on the road to wholeness, again.
Oh, that's right......don't want that "root of bitterness" in there to trouble and defile you.
How often that verse is used for submission. Uuugh.
If some are going to take the scripture route, then why not II Corinthians 7: Confronting Sinners
...1) speaking the truth in love
...2) sinner/perpetrator hears
...3) godly sorrow
...4) repentance (change of heart)
...5) fear and trembling (respect & obedience)
...6) salvation (actions/wholeness)
...7) restored standing in household of faith
THEN......they (abusers/sinners) will approve themselves to be clear of this matter (sin). [iI Cor. 7:11]
Christians need to STOP sheltering these abuses and abusers!
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