VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Italian bishops were so convinced that one of their own would become pope that they sent a congratulatory message to the media thanking God for the election of a prelate from Milan.
The trouble was, the new pope had already been named as Argentinian cardinal Jorge Bergoglio.
The secretary-general of the Italian conference, Monsignor Mariano Crociata, expressed "joy and thanks" to God for the election of Cardinal Angelo Scola of Milan in a statement sent to reporters at 8:23 p.m. (3:23 p.m. ET) on Wednesday night.
About 10 minutes earlier, Bergoglio had made his first appearance before the crowds in St. Peter's Square.
At 9:08 p.m. (4:08 p.m. ET), the Italian bishops conference sent another statement thanking God for the election of the pope, but this time got the name right.
In the days leading up the secret conclave, many Italian newspapers openly promoted Scola as the next pope.
The newspapers - and the bishops conference - appear to have missed the warning contained in a traditional Italian saying that front-runners at a papal conclave are often disappointed.
"He who enters a conclave as a pope, leaves it as a cardinal," the saying goes. Perhaps it was never more true in the modern age than in the conclave that elected Bergoglio instead of the Italian favorite Scola.
(Reporting By Philip Pullella; Editing by Crispian Balmer and Peter Graff)
The following is from a fellow Hoosier that's now living in Argentina. Yea, yea - - he's a banjo picker too,
but his perspective is coming from a "local" view that might not be reported in the mainstream news, so I
think what he has to say is credible. Here are his observations:
"This is a very controversial decision here in Argentina. This cardinal is ( was ) "Jorge Bergoglio" the bishop of Buenos Aires but it's also known and suspected that he collaborated with the military dictatorship under General Videla during the 70's and 80's.
This is the same military junta responsible for the invasion of the "Falkland Islands" ( known as "Las Malvinas" here in Argentina ) and the implementation of "El Proceso" which saw the kidnapping and torture and murder of some 30,000 young Argentines during this time period.
They were rounded up, many in the dreaded black ford falcons, taken to detention centers where they were beaten, tortured and then either shot, or more infamously, drugged and flown out over the Atlantic in military helicopters and pushed out alive but in a drugged state.
I am, right now from where I sit, only about 3 miles from a detention center here at the naval base in Mar del Plata where it was suspected that many young Argentines went during the dictatorship and were never seen or heard from again.
When his papacy was announced here at work their was a mixed reaction. Some like him for his "humility" and social outreach, especially amongst the poor in the "villas" ( slums ) of Buenos Aires, but others also remember him for his supposed collaboration, if the claims are true, with these brutal military dictators...many of whom are still in trial as we speak here in Argentina.
Time can heal, and ultimately change character and hearts. Forgiveness is a beautiful gift and a powerful force. Who knows what really went on? Maybe he regrets his past and has made peace with God and/or asked for forgiveness? Maybe he felt like he did nothing wrong? Maybe he didn't do anything at all and the claims are unfounded? Either way its a "bittersweet" mix for Argentina and their first pope."
There certainly has been a lot of talk about his possible collaboration with a repressive regime. Nothing substantive, it seems, more guilt by association. There are some accusations about him handing over, or at least winking at, the capture of two priests.
Maybe he did nothing with the junta.
Maybe he did something.
Maybe if he didn't do whatever he did do, things would have been even worse.
The BBC article that I referenced in an earlier post has some other information that is not complimentary; here's the link again: BBC profile on Pope Francis
Maybe he was the best of a dubious bunch. There has been so much controversy about so many RC priests at all levels - some abusing, some moving abusers around and covering up, some with too-close male friends... There don't appear to be any such allegations about this new pope. So far, anyway.
Humility is easy to fake. The manner of self deprecation is often confused with a true meek heart and mindset.
I wonder what "collaboration" really means....? Sounds vague, I haven't seen anything very specific either Twinkster.
It could mean that he's as good as most Catholic Top Dogs at hiding the skeletons. It could be an accusation based on lack of information. Could mean he helped the wrong side.
That's not hard to do - depending on which is the wrong side this week.
Pope Frank! Gotta love it.
Catholics are SO in denial. Wanting a Pope that will be "forward" thinking, while there's 1000's of weepy RC's sopping up the tears of joy that there's a new Popester in the Vatican. Oh Lord! It's a great great day!
The new boss is about like the old boss and will be for a long time - they're not going to elect a new Pope that's going to do anything differently than the old ones have done when it comes to key critical doctrinal and practical areas. That's not the Job - the job is to protect the traditions, they're very clear about that. It's no secret. RC's wanting a progressive Pope is like Wayfers wanting a progress President. It won't happen.
exactly all this talk is kind of like being on a committee to discuss the rehabilitation of jeffrey dahmar or something like that. you know what i mean? maybe i could think of a better comparison. i'll let you know if i do.
Pope Francis suggested in an interview last year that the Catholic Church's rule that priests be celibate "can change" and admitted he was tempted by a woman as a young seminarian.
He said that the married clergy of the Eastern churches are "very good priests" and those pushing for the same in Roman Catholicism do so "with a certain pragmatism."
For now, though, "the discipline of celibacy stands firm," he said, adding that priests should quit if they can't abstain from sex or if they get a woman pregnant.
--
The future pope began the conversation with an personal anecdote from his years as a seminarian.
"I was dazzled by a girl I met at an uncle's wedding," he said, according to Aleteia. "I was surprised by her beauty, her intellectual brilliance ... and, well, I was bowled over for quite a while.
"I kept thinking and thinking about her. When I returned to the seminary after the wedding, I could not pray for over a week because when I tried to do so, the girl appeared in my head. I had to rethink what I was doing."
He said he had to choose between the girl and the priesthood, and though he picked the latter, he knows not everyone would.
"When something like this happens to a seminarian, I help him go in peace to be a good Christian and not a bad priest," Bergoglio said.
"In the Western Church to which I belong, priests cannot be married as in the Byzantine, Ukrainian, Russian or Greek Catholic Churches. In those Churches, the priests can be married, but the bishops have to be celibate. They are very good priests," he added.
"In Western Catholicism, some organizations are pushing for more discussion about the issue. For now, the discipline of celibacy stands firm. Some say, with a certain pragmatism, that we are losing manpower. If, hypothetically, Western Catholicism were to review the issue of celibacy, I think it would do so for cultural reasons (as in the East), not so much as a universal option."
He said that "for the moment" he was in favor of maintaining the celibacy rule "because we have ten centuries of good experiences rather than failures."
But, he added, "It is a matter of discipline, not of faith. It can change."
In the meantime, though, he said celibacy should not be treated with a wink and a nod. Any priest who strays and becomes a father "has to leave the ministry," he said.
"Now, if a priest tells me he got excited and that he had a fall, I help him to get on track again. There are priests who get on track again and others who do not," he said.
"The double life is no good for us. I don't like it because it means building on falsehood. Sometimes I say: 'If you can not overcome it, make your decision.'"
He said that "for the moment" he was in favor of maintaining the celibacy rule "because we have ten centuries of good experiences rather than failures."
There's a guy who's swimming in de nial.
Aside from whether it's a healthy policy at all and actually does any good for anyone, long term -
He also alludes to a very important and powerful aspect of that condition -
It's a struggle, a matter of discipline. And to all the priests who can't keep their hands off little boys YES MR POPESTER FOR THEM IT DOES SEEM TO BE A CHOICE THEY MAKE. The N.T. writers cover that ground, HOW TO HANDLE REPROBATE WOLVES, who make ruin in the flock. And it's clear that there are serious gaps in their end to end process for attracting, reviewing, training, approving and maintaining a body of mentally, physically and emotionally healthy members.
His position that they have 100's of years of good experiences is such a farcical statement it doesn't warrant serious attention but it does highlight the reality of Roman Catholic Vaticanism - no matter how normal he appears to be, "for the moment" the rules will stay as they are and I've no doubt he'll defend the ordinances until his last dying breath.
Prove me wrong, FrankenPope! I'll be the first one to admit I was wrong.
He and all popes and all cardinals really have to defend the doctrine of celibacy. How else can you justify to yourself the decades of denial of a normal human marital relationship?
When you're in your 70s and suddenly realise that actually you could have been married, enjoyed a loving relationship with your WIFE and had the blessing of children?
And so, they will perpetuate this myth that a minister must be celibate (in the face of scriptures that say otherwise) and keep younger decent men under repression.
A bit off topic but here is an interesting article and very surprising defence against an accusation of an RC priest's sexual assault of a teenage girl: Surprise defence
It's been widely reported in the UK but may not have made it to other parts of the world.
I'm inclined to believe the priest and not the girl, who may well have been something of a fantasist. But I don't know.
Joke, a bit off topic but related to the last post:
A young monk arrives at the monastery.
He is assigned to helping the other monks in copying the old canons and laws of the church by hand.
He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript.
So, the new monk goes to the Old Abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up! In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies.
The head monk, says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son."
He goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery where the original manuscripts are held,as archives in a locked vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years. Hours go by and nobody sees the Old Abbot.
So, the young monk gets worried and goes down to look for him. He sees him banging his head against the wall and wailing.
"We missed the R!; We missed the R! We missed the bloody R!"
His forehead is all bloody and bruised and he is crying uncontrollably.
The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, father?"With a choking voice, the old Abbot replies, "The word was ...
I get it though - I've read that this is more common than we might think. The need for companionship, close intimate sharing, reinforcement, feedback, support are all very basic needs.
I've always thought that it's unrealistic and unreasonable to assume that everyone who chooses a life in a religious order that includes celibacy will be successful consistently across a lifetime.
Nearly all of the nuns and at least two priests that taught my elementary school the years I was there left their orders later. One factors in then - what effect did their personal struggles and confrontations with such things as celibacy effect their work, how much and in what ways....?
There are different sides to that kind of committment - what it means to the person making it and what it means to those he will then work with and serve.
These stories, reports, lawsuits are really just the tip of an iceberg. They reflect when the damage is worst, laws have been broken, serious harm has been done.
Incredibly the RC leadership has gotten away with their defense of self managment and regulation. They have so abused the sense that a religious committment to a specific set of moral and ethical creeds can inspire a higher level of care, concern and responsibility and in fact exemplify the opposite through their denial and lack of responsibility.
A great deal of the RC's history in regards to relationships and marriage is TOXIC.
The culture of fear in the church is so strong that those men and women who are most outraged against this stuff will not break rank and openly rebel from within to create an opposing culture of non tolerance.
There are churches in the U.S. that have declared bankruptcy - not sure how that works for a church but they've done it - due to the millions of $$$$ paid out to settle lawsuits. I would think that would cause some Archbishop or Cardinal to step up and put the brakes on if there were any who really cared. I mean - at least if only to protect their bankrolls.
While I recognize there are good people in the church I still find it atrocious that someone like the Pope can take office and get good marks from the press for acting "normal". I'd be more impressed if it was reported that Day Two he sat down with his direct reports and said "we're going to work on this sexual abuse problem we have, so cancel your vacations we're going to fix this".
Instead it all strikes me as more of the cutesy precious mugging that goes on with RCics...."Oh Loooook!...He's THE POPE! and he actually opens the door for himself and talked to other people while he walked and LAUGHED at a joke! Oh, he's SO HUMAN and he's THE POPE! Can you believe it? Oh, I'm getting in line to kiss his ring, I can't wait this is just SO COOL!"
What's nuts, Socks? A daft joke about celibacy? Or a defence of, I never touched that girl because I'm secretly married? Or just being secretly married??
I kinda like the guy for having the guts to get married, and wave two fingers at the RC church's manmade rules.
I wonder if he will apply to the Anglican church (or some other church) as a married minister? Even the RC church accepts married ex-vicars but won't allow them to proceed beyond minister staage (ie can't be bishops).
You said:
I still find it atrocious that someone like the Pope can take office and get good marks from the press for acting "normal". I'd be more impressed if it was reported that Day Two he sat down with his direct reports and said "we're going to work on this sexual abuse problem we have, so cancel your vacations we're going to fix this".
Instead it all strikes me as more of the cutesy precious mugging that goes on with RCics...."Oh Loooook!...He's THE POPE! and he actually opens the door for himself and talked to other people while he walked and LAUGHED at a joke! Oh, he's SO HUMAN and he's THE POPE! Can you believe it? Oh, I'm getting in line to kiss his ring, I can't wait this is just SO COOL!"
Huh, having been elected, it was widely reported that he paid his own hotel bill. What, there was some possibility that he would not do that??
Maybe, like politicians, Popes should be elected young and vigorous. A man in his 40s, not yet quite so entrenched in his ways that he can't take a fresh look. And still of marriageable age.
i didn't read the last few posts because there was humor and maybe jokes
my little brother (well, two of them, but i'm talking about this one for a minute) was given many gifts and rides and allowed to drive his car and too many things before i feel like vomiting. we had a very bad father (dad). so this father honed in. my little brothers were altar boys etc. anyway, this priest who had been transferred from brooklyn for the same offenses, came to our parish, and the head honcho fr. syzmanksi who became monsignor knew about it
this one little brother of mine spent years and years on drugs and going to a place like an alley where he would pay to have another male do to him what father butler had done to him when he was a little boy
Nuts is the weird circle of irony around that priest's defense. If I understand it correctly his defense is -
That while in his role as a priest -
Which required he swear an oath to celibacy-
He fell in love with a woman-
Who he then secretly married-
And continued to live a life that was completely false to those who looked to him as a priest-
For 10 years-
And so therefore would not have smooched and groped a teenage girl-
Because he was in that - relationship? - with the other woman that he loved.
I agree with you - I'm glad he was at least honest with his own feelings and did something about it, albeit a tad dishonestly. (I love your two finger reference!)
But - yeah, I guess if I looked at it from his standpoint he did take a stand of sorts and follow his inner heart, and he would have known it wouldn't be a secret forever or perhaps planned a time when he could move on and out. Dunno.
But I - and this is just me - I don't think that would constitute a very strong platform for establishing his personal integrity. He broke his own rules that he accepted when he took that oath, made the commitment and imposed the rules upon himself. So basically we have a guy who admits he lied for 10 years asking to be accepted as someone who then wouldn't lie again because he was too busy lying about the other relationship.
That's a little like a guy with your jelly on his face saying he didn't take my berries because he was busy making jelly sandwiches.
A little, to me. But I give him some cred' regardless - I hope he can get this behind him, move on and have a happy life.
I do not believe that there is a biblical imperative for those who serve in any formal or informal role within the Church to marry or not marry or any combination of the two. There's advice and guidance, that's it but no rules other than the obvious common sense ones that apply to all as advice and guidance.
It is... It is a totally nutty defence. That he was married, getting lots of ... married recreation ... therefore didn't need to grope a teenage girl. One really does have to have a chuckle.
On the other hand, I do know some teenage girls really come on hard to older males, and make false accusations. Male teachers in secondary schools are particularly vulnerable to this, unfortunately. I wondered if this accusation could be something like that.
And on the third hand... if he did grope the girl, he deserves whatever's coming. From secular authorities and from the church. And from his wife.
Back to the topic, there have been Popes who have fathered children. And RC priests' housekeepers may perform more than simply housekeeping duties, or so I have heard. From unreliable sources.
It would be useful if this could be reconsidered - at least, the process started - to end this manmade practice of celibacy.
Perhaps ... when there is appointed a man in his 40s, not yet quite so entrenched in his ways that he can't take a fresh look. And still of marriageable age.
Certainly a different scenario than a priest getting clammy with a pre teen boy, I'll give him that.
In High School we had a Father Donovan - I'll give his hame, there must be more than few Father Donovan's over the years....he was in his late 30's, red hair, Irish, from Ireland, wiry and lean. Smoked, and by that time I think I was flirting with cigarettes, and he chain smoked Camels. Taught Religion my sophomore year, out in one of the "Portables" they were called, small standalone rooms that were on the perimeter of the back court area. There were 4 if I remember correctly and in between classes he'd walk out back behind them on one side and light up. Very nice guy, spent a good part of the class sessions covering a wide range of topics, current interest stuff.
He told us his background - he'd graduated high school, done a few things, worked and then took a couple years to go off on his own, hitchhiked all over Europe, did some really interesting and cool stuff, worked at all sorts of jobs to pay his way, saw the world, lived the life. He implied he'd gone out to sort himself out a bit and "find" himself. I thought that was immensely cool. He was very down to earth and not really impressed with himself other than he had the air of intellectual superiority that Jesuit priests all seem to have. And he had an air of the Searcher in him too, of being a thoughtful person who was trying to learn his place in the world.
I have no doubt he'd had sexual relations as a young man, he was single, good looking and out to see and learn what the world was all about. I figured good for him, he wasn't there with a bag over his head, he could see the world for what it was. He did make a point of saying that unlike many of his peers he didn't go into the priesthood directly from school at the age of 13 or even 18. And he'd seen stuff, done stuff and had stories to tell. I remember feeling like this was not the end of the road for him.
A guy like that would have a much better sense of who he was and how to live and work than many of the priests who grew up and into the priesthood from childhood.
In fact they could set up their religious orders to have shorter lengths of time - say 3 or 5 years, with a view to developing those who really do feel lifetime service is their calling to be able to pursue that in different ways.The current model has failed badly and for those who handle it successfully I would wonder as you - what kind of life might have these people have had given the opportunity?
He sounds like a nice, useful, helpful sort of guy, Socks.
In other denominations (of which I know Anglican best) - even if a person feels a calling to the priesthood at an early age - say in high school, or even college - he is told to go away, learn a bit about life, and apply again a few years later. So people will spend a few years as teachers or accountants or - anything really - and then undertake minister training no earlier than early 30s and often much later. That way, they can bring lots of life experience of real situations, and consider Godly ways to deal with them.
Pope Francis has opted for the simpler surroundings of the Domus Santa Marta hotel-style residence rather than the traditional palatial papal quarters
Pope Francis has decided to shun a grand papal apartment on the top floor of the Vatican's Apostolic Palace in favour of a modest two-room residence. His spokesman said he was "trying out this type of simple living" in a communal building with other priests. In doing so he has broken a tradition which is more than a century old.
The decision reinforces the newly-elected Pope's austere reputation. As archbishop of Buenos Aires he refused to move into the Bishop's Palace. Preferring more modest accommodation, he also often cooked his own meals.
Since the reign of Pope Pius X at the beginning of the 20th Century every pope has occupied the palatial penthouse apartment with more than a dozen rooms, staff quarters, a terrace and extensive views over the city of Rome. But since his election Pope Francis has been living in a simple two-room suite in the Domus Santa Marta - a hotel-style residence built by his predecessor Pope John Paul II next to St Peter's Basilica. And he intends to go on living there for the foreseeable future, according to the Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi."This morning he let his fellow cardinals know that he will keep living with them for a certain period of time," Mr Lombardi said. He said he could not say whether the Pope would remain in these quarters in the long term. "It is still a period of getting used to things," Mr Lombardi added.
Pope Francis will continue to use the papal library on the second floor of the Apostolic palace for receiving official guests and will appear on Sundays at the window used by previous popes to address pilgrims in St Peters Square.
About half the 105 suites in the residence are occupied by Vatican staff, who had to move out of their rooms to accommodate visiting cardinals during the holding of the recent conclave at which Pope Francis was elected.
The Pope will take his meals in the communal dining room together with other visiting clerics and permanent residents.
His simple new communal home contrasts with the much larger accommodation currently being renovated inside the Vatican for the future use of the now retired former Pope Benedict and his staff, reports the BBC's David Willey in Rome.
I would be really impressed if he were to convert the Official Residence into say a hostel for homeless people, or use it for some other purpose of benefit to the whole community. And not just the official grand papal apartment, but the whole building.
Agree, on the scale and focus of the new Pope Guy.
It's a lesser of two evils to me. Which still keeps us in the same arena...
...Given that he's fully paid and vested for his room and board and all related accoutrements for as long as he chooses to remain. (even if he resigns he'll be in finely appointed digs compared to a majority of those who line up to kiss his ring). :blink:/>/>
"Let's just wait...and see....what comes out of the river...."
The film Deliverance is loaded with TONS of great lines, cinematography, music, etc. etc. The actors. The Screenplay got a Golden Globe award. The script itself musta been a doozey.
That line "Let's just see...." is when they're dredging and scouring the area down river of where the guys say they're canoe went down and Sheriff Bullard recommends patience to see what they come up with. If all happened as they say, they should find evidence of it. Maybe. Hard to say.
In that Top 10 Great Scenes for me is at the end when Jon Voights in the car getting ready to drive away and the Sheriff comes over to him and says he's got questions still about why they had 4 life jackets if there were only 3 of them then and why Drew wasn't wearing his life jacket and there's a long pause and Jon Voight answers emphatically but calmly -
"I - don't - know".
And they stare at each other for a moment and Sheriff says "Don't never do something like this again. Don't come back up here....." let's let this town die in peace, something to that effect.
The RC knows how to stare you down and they can say they don't know as long as it'll work. At some point I would think the the Legal system will have to say yeah, we get that, so we're going to help y'all out a little since you can't figure it out yourself. Now have some of the corn and relax, it's real special isn't it? />
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Twinky
Or maybe that should be: ¡Hola! - hi, Pope!
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waysider
Bienvenido.
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excathedra
(Reporting By Philip Pullella; Editing by Crispian Balmer and Peter Graff)
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Twinky
Italian bishops... obviously God's not speaking to them. Maybe there is a case for the Pope speaking as God's mouthpiece? :biglaugh:/>
Hadn't heard that, Excie. Well spotted.
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dmiller
Hello all.
The following is from a fellow Hoosier that's now living in Argentina. Yea, yea - - he's a banjo picker too,
but his perspective is coming from a "local" view that might not be reported in the mainstream news, so I
think what he has to say is credible. Here are his observations:
"This is a very controversial decision here in Argentina. This cardinal is ( was ) "Jorge Bergoglio" the bishop of Buenos Aires but it's also known and suspected that he collaborated with the military dictatorship under General Videla during the 70's and 80's.
This is the same military junta responsible for the invasion of the "Falkland Islands" ( known as "Las Malvinas" here in Argentina ) and the implementation of "El Proceso" which saw the kidnapping and torture and murder of some 30,000 young Argentines during this time period.
They were rounded up, many in the dreaded black ford falcons, taken to detention centers where they were beaten, tortured and then either shot, or more infamously, drugged and flown out over the Atlantic in military helicopters and pushed out alive but in a drugged state.
I am, right now from where I sit, only about 3 miles from a detention center here at the naval base in Mar del Plata where it was suspected that many young Argentines went during the dictatorship and were never seen or heard from again.
When his papacy was announced here at work their was a mixed reaction. Some like him for his "humility" and social outreach, especially amongst the poor in the "villas" ( slums ) of Buenos Aires, but others also remember him for his supposed collaboration, if the claims are true, with these brutal military dictators...many of whom are still in trial as we speak here in Argentina.
Time can heal, and ultimately change character and hearts. Forgiveness is a beautiful gift and a powerful force. Who knows what really went on? Maybe he regrets his past and has made peace with God and/or asked for forgiveness? Maybe he felt like he did nothing wrong? Maybe he didn't do anything at all and the claims are unfounded? Either way its a "bittersweet" mix for Argentina and their first pope."
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Twinky
There certainly has been a lot of talk about his possible collaboration with a repressive regime. Nothing substantive, it seems, more guilt by association. There are some accusations about him handing over, or at least winking at, the capture of two priests.
Maybe he did nothing with the junta.
Maybe he did something.
Maybe if he didn't do whatever he did do, things would have been even worse.
This wiki article refers to it: Wikipedia - Pope Francis
The BBC article that I referenced in an earlier post has some other information that is not complimentary; here's the link again: BBC profile on Pope Francis
Maybe he was the best of a dubious bunch. There has been so much controversy about so many RC priests at all levels - some abusing, some moving abusers around and covering up, some with too-close male friends... There don't appear to be any such allegations about this new pope. So far, anyway.
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socks
Humility is easy to fake. The manner of self deprecation is often confused with a true meek heart and mindset.
I wonder what "collaboration" really means....? Sounds vague, I haven't seen anything very specific either Twinkster.
It could mean that he's as good as most Catholic Top Dogs at hiding the skeletons. It could be an accusation based on lack of information. Could mean he helped the wrong side.
That's not hard to do - depending on which is the wrong side this week.
Pope Frank! Gotta love it.
Catholics are SO in denial. Wanting a Pope that will be "forward" thinking, while there's 1000's of weepy RC's sopping up the tears of joy that there's a new Popester in the Vatican. Oh Lord! It's a great great day!
The new boss is about like the old boss and will be for a long time - they're not going to elect a new Pope that's going to do anything differently than the old ones have done when it comes to key critical doctrinal and practical areas. That's not the Job - the job is to protect the traditions, they're very clear about that. It's no secret. RC's wanting a progressive Pope is like Wayfers wanting a progress President. It won't happen.
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excathedra
exactly all this talk is kind of like being on a committee to discuss the rehabilitation of jeffrey dahmar or something like that. you know what i mean? maybe i could think of a better comparison. i'll let you know if i do.
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excathedra
our new humble one was dazzled by a girl
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socks
He said that "for the moment" he was in favor of maintaining the celibacy rule "because we have ten centuries of good experiences rather than failures."
There's a guy who's swimming in de nial.
Aside from whether it's a healthy policy at all and actually does any good for anyone, long term -
He also alludes to a very important and powerful aspect of that condition -
It's a struggle, a matter of discipline. And to all the priests who can't keep their hands off little boys YES MR POPESTER FOR THEM IT DOES SEEM TO BE A CHOICE THEY MAKE. The N.T. writers cover that ground, HOW TO HANDLE REPROBATE WOLVES, who make ruin in the flock. And it's clear that there are serious gaps in their end to end process for attracting, reviewing, training, approving and maintaining a body of mentally, physically and emotionally healthy members.
His position that they have 100's of years of good experiences is such a farcical statement it doesn't warrant serious attention but it does highlight the reality of Roman Catholic Vaticanism - no matter how normal he appears to be, "for the moment" the rules will stay as they are and I've no doubt he'll defend the ordinances until his last dying breath.
Prove me wrong, FrankenPope! I'll be the first one to admit I was wrong.
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Twinky
He and all popes and all cardinals really have to defend the doctrine of celibacy. How else can you justify to yourself the decades of denial of a normal human marital relationship?
When you're in your 70s and suddenly realise that actually you could have been married, enjoyed a loving relationship with your WIFE and had the blessing of children?
And so, they will perpetuate this myth that a minister must be celibate (in the face of scriptures that say otherwise) and keep younger decent men under repression.
A bit off topic but here is an interesting article and very surprising defence against an accusation of an RC priest's sexual assault of a teenage girl: Surprise defence
It's been widely reported in the UK but may not have made it to other parts of the world.
I'm inclined to believe the priest and not the girl, who may well have been something of a fantasist. But I don't know.
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Twinky
Joke, a bit off topic but related to the last post:
A young monk arrives at the monastery.
He is assigned to helping the other monks in copying the old canons and laws of the church by hand.
He notices, however, that all of the monks are copying from copies, not from the original manuscript.
So, the new monk goes to the Old Abbot to question this, pointing out that if someone made even a small error in the first copy, it would never be picked up! In fact, that error would be continued in all of the subsequent copies.
The head monk, says, "We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son."
He goes down into the dark caves underneath the monastery where the original manuscripts are held, as archives in a locked vault that hasn't been opened for hundreds of years. Hours go by and nobody sees the Old Abbot.
So, the young monk gets worried and goes down to look for him. He sees him banging his head against the wall and wailing.
"We missed the R!; We missed the R! We missed the bloody R!"
His forehead is all bloody and bruised and he is crying uncontrollably.
The young monk asks the old abbot, "What's wrong, father?" With a choking voice, the old Abbot replies, "The word was ...
. . .CELEBRATE!"
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socks
That's nuts Twinky!
I get it though - I've read that this is more common than we might think. The need for companionship, close intimate sharing, reinforcement, feedback, support are all very basic needs.
I've always thought that it's unrealistic and unreasonable to assume that everyone who chooses a life in a religious order that includes celibacy will be successful consistently across a lifetime.
Nearly all of the nuns and at least two priests that taught my elementary school the years I was there left their orders later. One factors in then - what effect did their personal struggles and confrontations with such things as celibacy effect their work, how much and in what ways....?
There are different sides to that kind of committment - what it means to the person making it and what it means to those he will then work with and serve.
These stories, reports, lawsuits are really just the tip of an iceberg. They reflect when the damage is worst, laws have been broken, serious harm has been done.
Incredibly the RC leadership has gotten away with their defense of self managment and regulation. They have so abused the sense that a religious committment to a specific set of moral and ethical creeds can inspire a higher level of care, concern and responsibility and in fact exemplify the opposite through their denial and lack of responsibility.
A great deal of the RC's history in regards to relationships and marriage is TOXIC.
The culture of fear in the church is so strong that those men and women who are most outraged against this stuff will not break rank and openly rebel from within to create an opposing culture of non tolerance.
There are churches in the U.S. that have declared bankruptcy - not sure how that works for a church but they've done it - due to the millions of $$$$ paid out to settle lawsuits. I would think that would cause some Archbishop or Cardinal to step up and put the brakes on if there were any who really cared. I mean - at least if only to protect their bankrolls.
While I recognize there are good people in the church I still find it atrocious that someone like the Pope can take office and get good marks from the press for acting "normal". I'd be more impressed if it was reported that Day Two he sat down with his direct reports and said "we're going to work on this sexual abuse problem we have, so cancel your vacations we're going to fix this".
Instead it all strikes me as more of the cutesy precious mugging that goes on with RCics...."Oh Loooook!...He's THE POPE! and he actually opens the door for himself and talked to other people while he walked and LAUGHED at a joke! Oh, he's SO HUMAN and he's THE POPE! Can you believe it? Oh, I'm getting in line to kiss his ring, I can't wait this is just SO COOL!"
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Twinky
What's nuts, Socks? A daft joke about celibacy? Or a defence of, I never touched that girl because I'm secretly married? Or just being secretly married??
I kinda like the guy for having the guts to get married, and wave two fingers at the RC church's manmade rules.
I wonder if he will apply to the Anglican church (or some other church) as a married minister? Even the RC church accepts married ex-vicars but won't allow them to proceed beyond minister staage (ie can't be bishops).
You said:
Huh, having been elected, it was widely reported that he paid his own hotel bill. What, there was some possibility that he would not do that??Maybe, like politicians, Popes should be elected young and vigorous. A man in his 40s, not yet quite so entrenched in his ways that he can't take a fresh look. And still of marriageable age.
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excathedra
i didn't read the last few posts because there was humor and maybe jokes
my little brother (well, two of them, but i'm talking about this one for a minute) was given many gifts and rides and allowed to drive his car and too many things before i feel like vomiting. we had a very bad father (dad). so this father honed in. my little brothers were altar boys etc. anyway, this priest who had been transferred from brooklyn for the same offenses, came to our parish, and the head honcho fr. syzmanksi who became monsignor knew about it
this one little brother of mine spent years and years on drugs and going to a place like an alley where he would pay to have another male do to him what father butler had done to him when he was a little boy
sorry i can't go on
the story with the other little brother is worse
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socks
Nuts is the weird circle of irony around that priest's defense. If I understand it correctly his defense is -
That while in his role as a priest -
Which required he swear an oath to celibacy-
He fell in love with a woman-
Who he then secretly married-
And continued to live a life that was completely false to those who looked to him as a priest-
For 10 years-
And so therefore would not have smooched and groped a teenage girl-
Because he was in that - relationship? - with the other woman that he loved.
I agree with you - I'm glad he was at least honest with his own feelings and did something about it, albeit a tad dishonestly. (I love your two finger reference!)
But - yeah, I guess if I looked at it from his standpoint he did take a stand of sorts and follow his inner heart, and he would have known it wouldn't be a secret forever or perhaps planned a time when he could move on and out. Dunno.
But I - and this is just me - I don't think that would constitute a very strong platform for establishing his personal integrity. He broke his own rules that he accepted when he took that oath, made the commitment and imposed the rules upon himself. So basically we have a guy who admits he lied for 10 years asking to be accepted as someone who then wouldn't lie again because he was too busy lying about the other relationship.
That's a little like a guy with your jelly on his face saying he didn't take my berries because he was busy making jelly sandwiches.
A little, to me. But I give him some cred' regardless - I hope he can get this behind him, move on and have a happy life.
I do not believe that there is a biblical imperative for those who serve in any formal or informal role within the Church to marry or not marry or any combination of the two. There's advice and guidance, that's it but no rules other than the obvious common sense ones that apply to all as advice and guidance.
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Twinky
It is... It is a totally nutty defence. That he was married, getting lots of ... married recreation ... therefore didn't need to grope a teenage girl. One really does have to have a chuckle.
On the other hand, I do know some teenage girls really come on hard to older males, and make false accusations. Male teachers in secondary schools are particularly vulnerable to this, unfortunately. I wondered if this accusation could be something like that.
And on the third hand... if he did grope the girl, he deserves whatever's coming. From secular authorities and from the church. And from his wife.
Back to the topic, there have been Popes who have fathered children. And RC priests' housekeepers may perform more than simply housekeeping duties, or so I have heard. From unreliable sources.
It would be useful if this could be reconsidered - at least, the process started - to end this manmade practice of celibacy.
Perhaps ... when there is appointed a man in his 40s, not yet quite so entrenched in his ways that he can't take a fresh look. And still of marriageable age.
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socks
Agreed!
Certainly a different scenario than a priest getting clammy with a pre teen boy, I'll give him that.
In High School we had a Father Donovan - I'll give his hame, there must be more than few Father Donovan's over the years....he was in his late 30's, red hair, Irish, from Ireland, wiry and lean. Smoked, and by that time I think I was flirting with cigarettes, and he chain smoked Camels. Taught Religion my sophomore year, out in one of the "Portables" they were called, small standalone rooms that were on the perimeter of the back court area. There were 4 if I remember correctly and in between classes he'd walk out back behind them on one side and light up. Very nice guy, spent a good part of the class sessions covering a wide range of topics, current interest stuff.
He told us his background - he'd graduated high school, done a few things, worked and then took a couple years to go off on his own, hitchhiked all over Europe, did some really interesting and cool stuff, worked at all sorts of jobs to pay his way, saw the world, lived the life. He implied he'd gone out to sort himself out a bit and "find" himself. I thought that was immensely cool. He was very down to earth and not really impressed with himself other than he had the air of intellectual superiority that Jesuit priests all seem to have. And he had an air of the Searcher in him too, of being a thoughtful person who was trying to learn his place in the world.
I have no doubt he'd had sexual relations as a young man, he was single, good looking and out to see and learn what the world was all about. I figured good for him, he wasn't there with a bag over his head, he could see the world for what it was. He did make a point of saying that unlike many of his peers he didn't go into the priesthood directly from school at the age of 13 or even 18. And he'd seen stuff, done stuff and had stories to tell. I remember feeling like this was not the end of the road for him.
A guy like that would have a much better sense of who he was and how to live and work than many of the priests who grew up and into the priesthood from childhood.
In fact they could set up their religious orders to have shorter lengths of time - say 3 or 5 years, with a view to developing those who really do feel lifetime service is their calling to be able to pursue that in different ways.The current model has failed badly and for those who handle it successfully I would wonder as you - what kind of life might have these people have had given the opportunity?
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Twinky
He sounds like a nice, useful, helpful sort of guy, Socks.
In other denominations (of which I know Anglican best) - even if a person feels a calling to the priesthood at an early age - say in high school, or even college - he is told to go away, learn a bit about life, and apply again a few years later. So people will spend a few years as teachers or accountants or - anything really - and then undertake minister training no earlier than early 30s and often much later. That way, they can bring lots of life experience of real situations, and consider Godly ways to deal with them.
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excathedra
if you can't hate priests, i can't talk to you
that was a funny
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Twinky
From BBC News:
Pope Francis shuns grand apartment for two rooms
Pope Francis has opted for the simpler surroundings of the Domus Santa Marta hotel-style residence rather than the traditional palatial papal quarters
I would be really impressed if he were to convert the Official Residence into say a hostel for homeless people, or use it for some other purpose of benefit to the whole community. And not just the official grand papal apartment, but the whole building.
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socks
Agree, on the scale and focus of the new Pope Guy.
It's a lesser of two evils to me. Which still keeps us in the same arena...
...Given that he's fully paid and vested for his room and board and all related accoutrements for as long as he chooses to remain. (even if he resigns he'll be in finely appointed digs compared to a majority of those who line up to kiss his ring). :blink:/>/>
"Let's just wait...and see....what comes out of the river...."
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excathedra
oh let's all go down to the river and baptize this sunuvabeech lol
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socks
The film Deliverance is loaded with TONS of great lines, cinematography, music, etc. etc. The actors. The Screenplay got a Golden Globe award. The script itself musta been a doozey.
That line "Let's just see...." is when they're dredging and scouring the area down river of where the guys say they're canoe went down and Sheriff Bullard recommends patience to see what they come up with. If all happened as they say, they should find evidence of it. Maybe. Hard to say.
In that Top 10 Great Scenes for me is at the end when Jon Voights in the car getting ready to drive away and the Sheriff comes over to him and says he's got questions still about why they had 4 life jackets if there were only 3 of them then and why Drew wasn't wearing his life jacket and there's a long pause and Jon Voight answers emphatically but calmly -
"I - don't - know".
And they stare at each other for a moment and Sheriff says "Don't never do something like this again. Don't come back up here....." let's let this town die in peace, something to that effect.
The RC knows how to stare you down and they can say they don't know as long as it'll work. At some point I would think the the Legal system will have to say yeah, we get that, so we're going to help y'all out a little since you can't figure it out yourself. Now have some of the corn and relax, it's real special isn't it?
/>
(insert banjo music in the distance...)
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