This is very good, skyrider. My wife and I were talking just the other day about the difference between some of the other social media sites and GSC. On FB, for example, if someone disagrees with a thread you start, you just "zap" them. POOF! They're gone. No room to disagree or express your logic for doing so. Just a click of the mouse...the thread is gone. Here, people disagree all the time but there are rules to follow. "Your Mama wears combat boots" just doesn't 'get it' here. This is an element that was sorely missing in The Way. In FellowLaborers, for example, if you disagreed with some aspect of the program, you had to be very, very careful about how you expressed your disagreement and with whom. I'm sure it must have been the same way in The Corps or on HQ Staff.
This is an element that was sorely missing in The Way. In FellowLaborers, for example, if you disagreed with some aspect of the program, you had to be very, very careful about how you expressed your disagreement and with whom. I'm sure it must have been the same way in The Corps or on HQ Staff.
Wierwille's twi was structured with NO OPEN DIALOGUE.
Wierwille's pfal was cunningly calculated to AVOID ANY QUESTIONING.
Wierwille's adv class was devised with REPETITIVE, POSITIVE FEEDBACK.
Wierwille's corps was BOOT ON THE NECK OF ANY AND ALL DISSENTERS.
Open, Honest Dialogue AND Questioning? Twi couldn't survive if OPEN DISCUSSION were allowed.
Have you noticed - after any kind of post here, it's often not the initial post but the NEXT one, the second one, that sets the tone for the following discussion(s)?
If it's a thoughtful post, then the next couple of pages of the thread tend to be quite thoughtful. If it's a rant, then the next couple of pages - and perhaps the whole thread - tends to fall apart and any useful discussion is totally lost, on what might have been quite a useful topic.
After about the third page, the usual derailers have jumped in and particularly in ATW it tends to become a single discussion about the lifestyle of VPW, the efficacy of PFAL and like matters. Attacking each other's points of view, and not addressing the initial post. And any useful comment becomes totally obscured.
There's quite a big responsibility on the second poster o a thread to set a civil tone.
Sometimes, I think it might be worthwhile repeating the initial post at the top of each new page of a thread.
This is very good, skyrider. My wife and I were talking just the other day about the difference between some of the other social media sites and GSC. On FB, for example, if someone disagrees with a thread you start, you just "zap" them. POOF! They're gone. No room to disagree or express your logic for doing so. Just a click of the mouse...the thread is gone.
waysider.....besides Greasespot (and its predecessors), what other sites allow comments and free-flow discussion
of twi-involvement, experiences or doctrine?
Twi-offshoots? Nope. Didn't CES have one and then, close it down?
How about CFF? Or Finneg@an's outfit? Or Panarell0's? None that I know of.
Didn't the innie corps guy, John Br0wn, start one and twi shut it down?
How about John Riches0n's corps site? No real in-depth discussions, is there?
Where else is there to unravel the mess and discuss openly?
Think about this.......what if there were no GreaseSpot Forums to comment?
What if.....there were just opposing articles of twi-doctrine?
What if, after leaving twi, you didn't have this wide-range source of opposition to twi?
Do others' comments, reflections, insights, and experiences aid your recovery?
Or, do these discussions appear to be rude and bitter and hyperbole?
I am not so sure those two questions are mutually exclusive. Discussions that are rude, bitter, and contain hyperbole are human interactions and expressions of emotion. All of those help me, not just the nicer ones. Expressing yourself and participating in conversations absolutely helps recovery - mine, and others.
yes others participation helps me, even if they have a completely opposite viewpoint.
due to the nature of twi and the nature of how you exit twi, yes absolutely there will be bitterness. there really is no leaving a cult saying "no hard feelings everyone - I'm going to go find a church that better fits me and our family". in every single case I have seen there is confrontation and slander involved. so expressing yourself and conversing are how you work through the bitterness and get over it. Oh and of course while you do that inevitably there will be a "miserable comforter" around pointing out the fact that you are bitter and that you are just hurting yourself and don't pay attention to the people's evil that got you there. backing those people off is helpful in recovery.
the article talks about readers comments influencing news interpretation. I'm sure as a blanket assessment you could say that at GSC any news about TWI will probably end up producing negative reader comments. but when you look at twi's practices it's very clear that any TWI news will have been whitewashed 70x to remove any possible negative connotation anyway. so negative reader comments here are about the only place you get actual disclosure to the truth that is going on.
this is a lot different than a presidential state of the union address followed by "interpretations" by both parties that obscure the facts. this actually helps uncover the facts.
the article talks about readers comments influencing news interpretation. I'm sure as a blanket assessment you could say that at GSC any news about TWI will probably end up producing negative reader comments. but when you look at twi's practices it's very clear that any TWI news will have been whitewashed 70x to remove any possible negative connotation anyway. so negative reader comments here are about the only place you get actual disclosure to the truth that is going on.
Yeah......like twi's way magazine articles weren't whitewashed 70x to remove any negative connotations. :biglaugh:/>
Heck, those in twi's research department were NOT allowed to openly disagree with "wierwille research." Obviously, twi kept a vise-grip on all communication.......from research to publication. And, Walter Cvmmins wouldn't even address JS's adultery paper and research work after Geer read his "poop paper." The list of twi's indescretions is endless. The Sunday teachings are scrutinized weeks in advance of anyone standing at the big podium. Any corps grad....especially higher ranking leaders....who exited twi were slandered.
Religions, politics, businesses, etc. of certain stripes are always trying to monopolize the airwaves, the internet.
As a christian, I firmly believe that evil has an agenda [Eph 6:12].....and, that's just how things are.
Even wikipedia has an agenda......and a competitor.
If there were no GSC (and it's predecessor) there would have been no way for thousands to heal. There would have been no way for hundreds of thousands to know something of the truth. How many times has someone started a post here with I met someone....yadda yadda ....associated with twi......and asked us for advice.
And if course, if there was no GSC a certain Mr. Linder would have been a lot less busy reading a trying to figure out who was whom .....ahem! I wonder if he's got it all figured out now?
If there were no GSC, there would be thousands still in bondage to that dreadful organisation.
So many who have passed through here have been enabled to see the truth behind the facade - to see that what happened to them was part of systematic abuse.
Have you noticed - after any kind of post here, it's often not the initial post but the NEXT one, the second one, that sets the tone for the following discussion(s)?
If it's a thoughtful post, then the next couple of pages of the thread tend to be quite thoughtful. If it's a rant, then the next couple of pages - and perhaps the whole thread - tends to fall apart and any useful discussion is totally lost, on what might have been quite a useful topic.
After about the third page, the usual derailers have jumped in and particularly in ATW it tends to become a single discussion about the lifestyle of VPW, the efficacy of PFAL and like matters. Attacking each other's points of view, and not addressing the initial post. And any useful comment becomes totally obscured.
There's quite a big responsibility on the second poster o a thread to set a civil tone.
Sometimes, I think it might be worthwhile repeating the initial post at the top of each new page of a thread.
How comforting and secure it is to know that YOU get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which topics are useful. This place is just as one sided as any other.
"How comforting and secure it is to know that YOU get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which topics are useful. This place is just as one sided as any other."
You, also, get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which posts are useful...... for you.
As to being one-sided, it depends on your definition. I would probably say it is "biased", rather than one-sided because both sides are, indeed, presented. It is, after all, an anti-Way site. Still, you are given the opportunity to present your case, a luxury that is not afforded on many other sites.
How comforting and secure it is to know that YOU get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which topics are useful. This place is just as one sided as any other.
No, I don't decide. I get to see the quality of the responses. Whether they are measured or vitriolic, considered or polarising, dialogue or diatribe.
How comforting and secure it is to know that YOU get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which topics are useful. This place is just as one sided as any other.
Well, I don't know. Yes this place is one-sided, in that active posters generally are not active TWI members, but people recovering from previously being active TWI members. (oh yes I know the play on words where these don't exist and there are no active members).
Also, with the facts and stories that have come out about VPW's plagiarism and adultery, people tend to judge him on that alone. That is not unique. Look at Lance Armstrong in the news. The golden boy 7 time Tour de France champ who overcame cancer and wrote an inspirational best-seller called "It's Not About the Bike". However, interviews with people that lived around him uncovered some very deep character flaws. He cheated. The races he competed in he got disqualified because he cheated. And that's people's view about him now. And it is an appropriate view. It's just and fair.
Look there's a verse in Timothy that says "I so run that I obtain". The word obtain and the context carries the connotation that you strive lawfully so that you are not disqualified from your race. VPW ran a race being a minister and starting a ministry. He has been disqualified in that race for illegally using his competitors work and for taking advantage of his young female followers. This means that he did not win the race, no matter how badly people want to make excuses for him. He lost. DQ.
So whatever we salvage from our TWI experience, VP's teachings, and whatever we decide to do with continuing on participating in groups that may or may not use his work, it behooves us not to bury our head in the sand concerning what happened in the race.
Paul Allen and WayDale set the model, IMO. Information was online prior to that, some discussion sites like Trancenet but they weren't specific or focused in the way Allen and his board were.
One guy, one story, one platform. A crowd gathered around that and grew. GS is part of that growth.
The web content really expanded very quickly once he opened up WayDale. I always assumed - from day one, that was what he intended. Get it up and get a crowd contributing, lots of discussion, debate, hell raising, squabbles, the good the bad the ugly. It was very successful. His pending lawsuit and the ongoing discussion created a s--t storm that quite literally buried the Way Inc. in sheer pounds of words written.
Everything that's been written on WayDale or here in forums isn't true or factually correct however. I'm sure everyone here has read things on all sides of the fence they wouldn't bet to be true and have doubts about. That doesn't make the platform unstable and isn't outside the range of normal expectation. It would be unreasonable in my opinion to expect 100 per cent true facts or to proceed only if there was 100 per cent truth.
That's where Wayfers get fouled up IMO. Rather than accept the inevitability of human imperfection (which they so grandly exemplify) and work within the realities of human effort and work towards bettering the process they back step into piles of "just the Word".....don't do anything except quote the Bible, cherry pickin' Bible verses. That just ignores reality and cuts off the ultimate purpose of man's creation - to glorify God, each in his own way and identity.
Facebook? I treat that a little different. No grand purpose there, for me, just a public web presence of sorts and really - the value is the ease it allows for exchanging certain kinds of things like photos, etc. with family. There's other means of doing that though so it's not as if it's a permanent fixture in my philosophical pyramid of life or anything. I reserve the right to delete anything I consider inappropriate. I treat it as a conversation from my doorstep. Get ugly with me, right or wrong - I don't care. You're going to get gone really quick. That's just the way it is. I won't stink up my page with stuff I don't like. It's a matter of choice and preference, me, moi - what I like and don't like and what my friends and family feel about it.
I got some political rants from ex Wayfers last year that caused some of my more earth bound friends to message me and ask "what the f's with that goober?"....they were nice about it but those who really know me know I"m passionate but push comes to shove I'm not going to condemn you to hell for anything other than possibly backing the wrong team for the World Series, that kind of thing.
So I do reserve the right to change the channel, if I so choose. Big whoopdee doo. If that makes anyone so irate they smell mind-control-nuttiness, they may not be able to be my friend then - okay, I guess I can accept that. That hurts. I'll suffer terribly and likely lose many a night's sleep, tortured by the loss. But I'll survive, with less and wounded and of course terribly deluded though I be... but - I'll survive. />
Paul Allen and WayDale set the model, IMO. Information was online prior to that, some discussion sites like Trancenet but they weren't specific or focused in the way Allen and his board were.
One guy, one story, one platform. A crowd gathered around that and grew. GS is part of that growth.
The web content really expanded very quickly once he opened up WayDale. I always assumed - from day one, that was what he intended. Get it up and get a crowd contributing, lots of discussion, debate, hell raising, squabbles, the good the bad the ugly. It was very successful. His pending lawsuit and the ongoing discussion created a s--t storm that quite literally buried the Way Inc. in sheer pounds of words written.
Craig Martindale messed with the wrong wife.......and computer-savvy husband !!!
From what I remember, LCM ordered Mr. Linder to give the Allens the bums rush around March 23, 1999......and he had the Waydale site up and running three weeks later. Waydale -- derived from The Way and Martindale. Thus, the pinpointed focus, and impetus, was to "search and destroy" the way ministry and bring down martindale. Mission Accomplished.
The man had been on the inside, on staff at hq and assigned to assist John Reynolds, Twi's Secretary/Treasurer, with formulating twi's website. Had martindale known the potential platform that this one man would amass, surely he would have stayed a far, far distance from this man's wife. But no......martindale wanted another female in his stable. That was his mistake.
Open discussion.....where every ex-twier could come forward and share their story.
Open dialogue.......where twi's secrets were aired for all the world to see.
Open research.......where doctrinal threads and questioning was commonplace.
Open healing........where ex-twiers opened their arms and hearts to one and all.
Amazing how technology has changed the world we live in.
Craig Martindale messed with the wrong wife.......and computer-savvy husband !!!
From what I remember, LCM ordered Mr. Linder to give the Allens the bums rush around March 23, 1999......and he had the Waydale site up and running three weeks later. Waydale -- derived from The Way and Martindale. Thus, the pinpointed focus, and impetus, was to "search and destroy" the way ministry and bring down martindale. Mission Accomplished.
The man had been on the inside, on staff at hq and assigned to assist John Reynolds, Twi's Secretary/Treasurer, with formulating twi's website. Had martindale known the potential platform that this one man would amass, surely he would have stayed a far, far distance from this man's wife. But no......martindale wanted another female in his stable. That was his mistake.
Hey, Paul......I don't know if you ever stop and lurk here at GS, but just in case you happened by -- thank you for taking those bold steps of confronting martindale face-to-face, a confrontation witnessed by reynolds, rivenbark, and linder in the corps chalet president's office.
Man, I wish there would be videotape on that! You going face-to-face with martindale and DEMANDING HIS RESIGNATION.
A stern and adamant confrontation with eye-piercing directness for lcm's sexual predation on your wife.
Where rosalie covered for martindale's sins and plotted her rise to twi's prez stature.
Where reynolds, craig's okie-buddy, didn't have the balls to stand with paul.
Where linder stood at the back and along the wall brandishing his glock handgun.
No small wonder why your lawsuit against twi was settled out of court.
Twi could NOT AFFORD to have all these dirty, greasy secrets spilling forth.
Did Linder really brandish a gun at this confrontation? What was he gonna do, shoot Paul? And his wife? Bury them by the fountain, perhaps - LOL?
So much for walking in love, agreeing quickly with one's adversary, etc etc. (Without even backtracking to consider why Paul would be confronting...any of 'em.)
Did Linder really brandish a gun at this confrontation? What was he gonna do, shoot Paul? And his wife? Bury them by the fountain, perhaps - LOL?
It's certainly not the only time representatives of The Way have resorted to gun brandishing and strong-arm tactics to bully opponents into submission. Guns were kept out of sight at the podium. You can read Don't Worry's interview for more specifics.
Think about this.......what if there were no GreaseSpot Forums to comment?
What if.....there were just opposing articles of twi-doctrine?
What if, after leaving twi, you didn't have this wide-range source of opposition to twi?
Do others' comments, reflections, insights, and experiences aid your recover?
Or, do these discussions appear to be rude and bitter and hyperbole?
Just was wondering.......after reading this article Reader Comments
Others' comments and insights and experiences have definitely helped. The rude and bitter bits I skim through. I just had a quick look through your added article, and the difference is that I read here and find experiences that correspond to mine, insights that make me think about what I observed myself, and comments that I may or may not agree with but can understand. Thanks again to you all.
Hey, Paul......I don't know if you ever stop and lurk here at GS, but just in case you happened by -- thank you for taking those bold steps of confronting martindale face-to-face, a confrontation witnessed by reynolds, rivenbark, and linder in the corps chalet president's office.
i didn't even know about this. i was just really thankful that paul started waydale. it helped me a lot after YEARS
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chockfull
If there were no GS then there would be one less resource for people to recover from the negative impact of the Way International. One of my relatives has a rare disease, OT - tremors. There
skyrider
More Details On This: These corps notes were NOT just random, sketchy, drooled-on notes......scribbled during martindale corps-indoctrinated meetings. Craig's sister, kerry.....corp
skyrider
Wierwille's twi was structured with NO OPEN DIALOGUE. Wierwille's pfal was cunningly calculated to AVOID ANY QUESTIONING. Wierwille's adv class was devised with REPETITIVE, POSITIVE FEEDBACK. Wierw
waysider
This is very good, skyrider. My wife and I were talking just the other day about the difference between some of the other social media sites and GSC. On FB, for example, if someone disagrees with a thread you start, you just "zap" them. POOF! They're gone. No room to disagree or express your logic for doing so. Just a click of the mouse...the thread is gone. Here, people disagree all the time but there are rules to follow. "Your Mama wears combat boots" just doesn't 'get it' here. This is an element that was sorely missing in The Way. In FellowLaborers, for example, if you disagreed with some aspect of the program, you had to be very, very careful about how you expressed your disagreement and with whom. I'm sure it must have been the same way in The Corps or on HQ Staff.
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skyrider
Wierwille's twi was structured with NO OPEN DIALOGUE.
Wierwille's pfal was cunningly calculated to AVOID ANY QUESTIONING.
Wierwille's adv class was devised with REPETITIVE, POSITIVE FEEDBACK.
Wierwille's corps was BOOT ON THE NECK OF ANY AND ALL DISSENTERS.
Open, Honest Dialogue AND Questioning? Twi couldn't survive if OPEN DISCUSSION were allowed.
<_<
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Twinky
Have you noticed - after any kind of post here, it's often not the initial post but the NEXT one, the second one, that sets the tone for the following discussion(s)?
If it's a thoughtful post, then the next couple of pages of the thread tend to be quite thoughtful. If it's a rant, then the next couple of pages - and perhaps the whole thread - tends to fall apart and any useful discussion is totally lost, on what might have been quite a useful topic.
After about the third page, the usual derailers have jumped in and particularly in ATW it tends to become a single discussion about the lifestyle of VPW, the efficacy of PFAL and like matters. Attacking each other's points of view, and not addressing the initial post. And any useful comment becomes totally obscured.
There's quite a big responsibility on the second poster o a thread to set a civil tone.
Sometimes, I think it might be worthwhile repeating the initial post at the top of each new page of a thread.
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skyrider
waysider.....besides Greasespot (and its predecessors), what other sites allow comments and free-flow discussion
of twi-involvement, experiences or doctrine?
Twi-offshoots? Nope. Didn't CES have one and then, close it down?
How about CFF? Or Finneg@an's outfit? Or Panarell0's? None that I know of.
Didn't the innie corps guy, John Br0wn, start one and twi shut it down?
How about John Riches0n's corps site? No real in-depth discussions, is there?
Where else is there to unravel the mess and discuss openly?
Seems like GS Cafe is a very special open forum.
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chockfull
I am not so sure those two questions are mutually exclusive. Discussions that are rude, bitter, and contain hyperbole are human interactions and expressions of emotion. All of those help me, not just the nicer ones. Expressing yourself and participating in conversations absolutely helps recovery - mine, and others.
yes others participation helps me, even if they have a completely opposite viewpoint.
due to the nature of twi and the nature of how you exit twi, yes absolutely there will be bitterness. there really is no leaving a cult saying "no hard feelings everyone - I'm going to go find a church that better fits me and our family". in every single case I have seen there is confrontation and slander involved. so expressing yourself and conversing are how you work through the bitterness and get over it. Oh and of course while you do that inevitably there will be a "miserable comforter" around pointing out the fact that you are bitter and that you are just hurting yourself and don't pay attention to the people's evil that got you there. backing those people off is helpful in recovery.
the article talks about readers comments influencing news interpretation. I'm sure as a blanket assessment you could say that at GSC any news about TWI will probably end up producing negative reader comments. but when you look at twi's practices it's very clear that any TWI news will have been whitewashed 70x to remove any possible negative connotation anyway. so negative reader comments here are about the only place you get actual disclosure to the truth that is going on.
this is a lot different than a presidential state of the union address followed by "interpretations" by both parties that obscure the facts. this actually helps uncover the facts.
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skyrider
Yeah......like twi's way magazine articles weren't whitewashed 70x to remove any negative connotations. :biglaugh:/>
Heck, those in twi's research department were NOT allowed to openly disagree with "wierwille research." Obviously, twi kept a vise-grip on all communication.......from research to publication. And, Walter Cvmmins wouldn't even address JS's adultery paper and research work after Geer read his "poop paper." The list of twi's indescretions is endless. The Sunday teachings are scrutinized weeks in advance of anyone standing at the big podium. Any corps grad....especially higher ranking leaders....who exited twi were slandered.
Religions, politics, businesses, etc. of certain stripes are always trying to monopolize the airwaves, the internet.
As a christian, I firmly believe that evil has an agenda [Eph 6:12].....and, that's just how things are.
Even wikipedia has an agenda......and a competitor.
Check out -- conservapedia
.
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krys
If there were no GSC (and it's predecessor) there would have been no way for thousands to heal. There would have been no way for hundreds of thousands to know something of the truth. How many times has someone started a post here with I met someone....yadda yadda ....associated with twi......and asked us for advice.
And if course, if there was no GSC a certain Mr. Linder would have been a lot less busy reading a trying to figure out who was whom .....ahem! I wonder if he's got it all figured out now?
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Twinky
If there were no GSC, there would be thousands still in bondage to that dreadful organisation.
So many who have passed through here have been enabled to see the truth behind the facade - to see that what happened to them was part of systematic abuse.
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johniam
How comforting and secure it is to know that YOU get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which topics are useful. This place is just as one sided as any other.
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waysider
"How comforting and secure it is to know that YOU get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which topics are useful. This place is just as one sided as any other."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John
You, also, get to decide which posts are thoughtful and which posts are useful...... for you.
As to being one-sided, it depends on your definition. I would probably say it is "biased", rather than one-sided because both sides are, indeed, presented. It is, after all, an anti-Way site. Still, you are given the opportunity to present your case, a luxury that is not afforded on many other sites.
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Twinky
No, I don't decide. I get to see the quality of the responses. Whether they are measured or vitriolic, considered or polarising, dialogue or diatribe.
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chockfull
Well, I don't know. Yes this place is one-sided, in that active posters generally are not active TWI members, but people recovering from previously being active TWI members. (oh yes I know the play on words where these don't exist and there are no active members).
Also, with the facts and stories that have come out about VPW's plagiarism and adultery, people tend to judge him on that alone. That is not unique. Look at Lance Armstrong in the news. The golden boy 7 time Tour de France champ who overcame cancer and wrote an inspirational best-seller called "It's Not About the Bike". However, interviews with people that lived around him uncovered some very deep character flaws. He cheated. The races he competed in he got disqualified because he cheated. And that's people's view about him now. And it is an appropriate view. It's just and fair.
Look there's a verse in Timothy that says "I so run that I obtain". The word obtain and the context carries the connotation that you strive lawfully so that you are not disqualified from your race. VPW ran a race being a minister and starting a ministry. He has been disqualified in that race for illegally using his competitors work and for taking advantage of his young female followers. This means that he did not win the race, no matter how badly people want to make excuses for him. He lost. DQ.
So whatever we salvage from our TWI experience, VP's teachings, and whatever we decide to do with continuing on participating in groups that may or may not use his work, it behooves us not to bury our head in the sand concerning what happened in the race.
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socks
Paul Allen and WayDale set the model, IMO. Information was online prior to that, some discussion sites like Trancenet but they weren't specific or focused in the way Allen and his board were.
One guy, one story, one platform. A crowd gathered around that and grew. GS is part of that growth.
The web content really expanded very quickly once he opened up WayDale. I always assumed - from day one, that was what he intended. Get it up and get a crowd contributing, lots of discussion, debate, hell raising, squabbles, the good the bad the ugly. It was very successful. His pending lawsuit and the ongoing discussion created a s--t storm that quite literally buried the Way Inc. in sheer pounds of words written.
Everything that's been written on WayDale or here in forums isn't true or factually correct however. I'm sure everyone here has read things on all sides of the fence they wouldn't bet to be true and have doubts about. That doesn't make the platform unstable and isn't outside the range of normal expectation. It would be unreasonable in my opinion to expect 100 per cent true facts or to proceed only if there was 100 per cent truth.
That's where Wayfers get fouled up IMO. Rather than accept the inevitability of human imperfection (which they so grandly exemplify) and work within the realities of human effort and work towards bettering the process they back step into piles of "just the Word".....don't do anything except quote the Bible, cherry pickin' Bible verses. That just ignores reality and cuts off the ultimate purpose of man's creation - to glorify God, each in his own way and identity.
Facebook? I treat that a little different. No grand purpose there, for me, just a public web presence of sorts and really - the value is the ease it allows for exchanging certain kinds of things like photos, etc. with family. There's other means of doing that though so it's not as if it's a permanent fixture in my philosophical pyramid of life or anything. I reserve the right to delete anything I consider inappropriate. I treat it as a conversation from my doorstep. Get ugly with me, right or wrong - I don't care. You're going to get gone really quick. That's just the way it is. I won't stink up my page with stuff I don't like. It's a matter of choice and preference, me, moi - what I like and don't like and what my friends and family feel about it.
I got some political rants from ex Wayfers last year that caused some of my more earth bound friends to message me and ask "what the f's with that goober?"....they were nice about it but those who really know me know I"m passionate but push comes to shove I'm not going to condemn you to hell for anything other than possibly backing the wrong team for the World Series, that kind of thing.
So I do reserve the right to change the channel, if I so choose. Big whoopdee doo. If that makes anyone so irate they smell mind-control-nuttiness, they may not be able to be my friend then - okay, I guess I can accept that. That hurts. I'll suffer terribly and likely lose many a night's sleep, tortured by the loss. But I'll survive, with less and wounded and of course terribly deluded though I be... but - I'll survive.
/>
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excathedra
it's difficult to explain how i was affected by the internet and waydale
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skyrider
Craig Martindale messed with the wrong wife.......and computer-savvy husband !!!
From what I remember, LCM ordered Mr. Linder to give the Allens the bums rush around March 23, 1999......and he had the Waydale site up and running three weeks later. Waydale -- derived from The Way and Martindale. Thus, the pinpointed focus, and impetus, was to "search and destroy" the way ministry and bring down martindale. Mission Accomplished.
The man had been on the inside, on staff at hq and assigned to assist John Reynolds, Twi's Secretary/Treasurer, with formulating twi's website. Had martindale known the potential platform that this one man would amass, surely he would have stayed a far, far distance from this man's wife. But no......martindale wanted another female in his stable. That was his mistake.
Open discussion.....where every ex-twier could come forward and share their story.
Open dialogue.......where twi's secrets were aired for all the world to see.
Open research.......where doctrinal threads and questioning was commonplace.
Open healing........where ex-twiers opened their arms and hearts to one and all.
Amazing how technology has changed the world we live in.
And, threatens the survival of others.
.
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socks
Indeed, the height of arrogance. A most beautiful wreck, LCM was. Great snap shot, sky.
I guess their hedge of protection got a good....trimming. Opened up the view a little.
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skyrider
And......the "hedge trimming" is not just exclusive to twi, either.
The World Wide Web has helped to open the doors and set the captives free.
Discussion forums and message boards abound. Just a couple noted below:
Ex-Amish.com
Ex-Scientology Message Board
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skyrider
Hey, Paul......I don't know if you ever stop and lurk here at GS, but just in case you happened by -- thank you for taking those bold steps of confronting martindale face-to-face, a confrontation witnessed by reynolds, rivenbark, and linder in the corps chalet president's office.
Man, I wish there would be videotape on that! You going face-to-face with martindale and DEMANDING HIS RESIGNATION.
A stern and adamant confrontation with eye-piercing directness for lcm's sexual predation on your wife.
Where rosalie covered for martindale's sins and plotted her rise to twi's prez stature.
Where reynolds, craig's okie-buddy, didn't have the balls to stand with paul.
Where linder stood at the back and along the wall brandishing his glock handgun.
No small wonder why your lawsuit against twi was settled out of court.
Twi could NOT AFFORD to have all these dirty, greasy secrets spilling forth.
What a bunch of gutless twits at twi's hq.
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Twinky
Did Linder really brandish a gun at this confrontation? What was he gonna do, shoot Paul? And his wife? Bury them by the fountain, perhaps - LOL?
So much for walking in love, agreeing quickly with one's adversary, etc etc. (Without even backtracking to consider why Paul would be confronting...any of 'em.)
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waysider
It's certainly not the only time representatives of The Way have resorted to gun brandishing and strong-arm tactics to bully opponents into submission. Guns were kept out of sight at the podium. You can read Don't Worry's interview for more specifics.
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cara
Others' comments and insights and experiences have definitely helped. The rude and bitter bits I skim through. I just had a quick look through your added article, and the difference is that I read here and find experiences that correspond to mine, insights that make me think about what I observed myself, and comments that I may or may not agree with but can understand. Thanks again to you all.
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excathedra
i didn't even know about this. i was just really thankful that paul started waydale. it helped me a lot after YEARS
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skyrider
Yep.....back in 1999, I had a long phone conversation with Paul and heard the details. And, sent him a box
with five-years of explicit corps meeting notes and quotes of lcm --- to help with the lawsuit against twi.
Regarding the gun issue.....not sure how many people were aware of the seriousness that wierwille and martindale
took to this bodyguard/security issue. The 'safety department' was ramped up with more and more paranoia thru
the years and I doubt that even some staffers saw it. When I arrived back at hq from my 10 day deprogramming
detainment, I stayed at Don and Wanda's house for four or five days. Then, I moved to a unit on twi grounds
and THREE TIMES, late at night, the security patrol came checking on me. Apparently, there had been reports of
some stranger on grounds or something.
In May 1981, while I was with wierwille on his motorcoach and going over my deprogramming encounter for those
'By The Way' articles......chris geer abruptly dashed onto the motorcoach and said to wierwille, "They are on
the grounds." Without another word, wierwille stood up and left with geer in his vehicle. In stunned disbelief,
I was left sitting alone on wierwille's coach pondering what the he!! could be going on in their secret world.
Was it a devil spirit attack? Was it an assassin? Was it the FBI? Was it the IRS? Was it a corps cop-out?
Another couple minutes went by and then, I exited the motorcoach. Hmmm, that was wierd.
When I look back at that time frame......NONE of the trustees sat down with me with compassion or concern.
Not one of them prayed for me, or with me........after the 10 days of deprogramming detention.
Even though I stayed with Don and Wanda for several days......looking back, it seems like their invitation
at their house near New Knoxville's airport simply was another ploy to keep me separated from staff & corps.
Every move and tactic was used to diffuse attention away from twi and onto 'the outsiders, the evil ones.'
IMO......the gun guys, the 'bodyguard patrol' was like twi's inner-circle of classified information.
Was there a black list? Were there threats from corps dissenters? Were there pi$$ed off husbands out there?
Fast forward to November 1986 ........wierwille had been dead for over a year, geer had read his 'patriarch paper'
claiming the high authority of wierwille's last will and testament, the clergy were fracturing and dissenting,
and at this clergy meeting CHRIS GEER BRINGS A GUN TO THE AUDITORIUM PODIUM.
.
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WordWolf
[We all get to decide that.
We don't all get to force others to agree with our opinions, however.
That's one reason we have spirited discussions here.
You're one person who takes particular advantage of that.
Minority opinions are disagreed with here, often called-out, often refuted,
and so on,
but they are permitted here and so your posts are not suppressed.
If it wasn't for some posters eventually refusing to post within civil
levels of discourse (which happens everywhere eventually),
everyone who ever posted here would be welcome to continue to post here.]
[No it isn't.
Examples of other places were given before you posted this.
You might want to actually READ the posts of others rather than just
comb over them for something to pick out and disagree with
on general principle.
There's been other boards where dissenting opinions were deleted
and user accounts deleted.
There's been other boards where they were shut down because the
powers-that-be couldn't completely control the discussions.
There's been other boards where you were not permitted to sign up
until you proved you were solidly an active member of the group.
THOSE places were a LOT more one-sided than the GSC.
Here we have pages and pages of minority opinions and posters
disagreed with, whether because they were posting silliness
or posting already-refuted claims, or spewing hatred with no
real content, or any other reason they weren't posting what
everyone else was.]
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