I know what a cult is. It's a religious slur used by the cool churches to diss the nerd churches. Lambda lambda forever!
In other words, you don't know and don't care. You've invented your own definition to suit your preconceived idea. Why bother even posting? If you don't understand what a cult is, how can you possibly contribute anything meaningful to the conversation?
Steven Hassan, in his book Combatting Cult Mind Control: A Guide to Protection, Rescue and Recovery from Destructive Cults, lists what he feels to be the four main types of cults:
1. Religious cults -- those focused on religious dogma.
2. Political cults -- those focused on a particular political dogma.
3. Psychotherapy/Educational cults -- those which hold workshops and seminars to provide “insight” and “enlightenment,” usually in a hotel meeting-room environment.
4. Commercial cults -- which believe in the dogma of greed, and manipulate people for little or no pay in the hope of getting rich, usually through pyramid-style or multi-level marketing organizations.
Hassan maintains that the deciding factor of whether a group should be labeled with the term “cult” is that the members are secured and maintained as members through what he designates “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
*The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
*Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
*Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
*The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
*The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
*The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
*The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
*The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
*The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
*Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
*The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
*The group is preoccupied with making money.
*Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
*Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
*The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
[On the one hand, we have posters posting educated responses, first with
quotes from degreed experts, then with discussion of the same.
On the other hand, we have this opposing viewpoint....]
So...anyone who has a pov contrary to mainstream opinions is potentially leading people into a "cult", and if said person gets a lot of followers, they become a "destructive cult"???
(snip)
Any small town, like Mayberry of the old Andy Griffith show, has/had all these in play.
I know what a cult is. It's a religious slur used by the cool churches to diss the nerd churches. Lambda lambda forever!
[What did it add?]
In other words, you don't know and don't care. You've invented your own definition to suit your preconceived idea. Why bother even posting? If you don't understand what a cult is, how can you possibly contribute anything meaningful to the conversation?
[Actually,
he may have invented his own definition.
Me, I think he was HANDED that definition and never questioned why reality clashed with
it so dramatically. It was given to him-if it was given to him- to forestall any
attempts by him to think this all through.
Worked really well, too.
He's deliberately skipping over everything refuting his belief and maintaining
[On the one hand, we have posters posting educated responses, first with
quotes from degreed experts, then with discussion of the same.
On the other hand, we have this opposing viewpoint....]
Now watch Johniam jump in and say something about educated responses and discussion thereof. And the "quality" of responses being aligned with one's PoV.
Why does every thread become about Johniam? Can't you just ignore his least outrageous posts (at any rate) and continue the discussion without his knots in the thread?
*The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
Twi is elitist, claiming a special status (true household) --- check
Leader is considered special being, avatar (THE man of God) -- check
On a special mission (teaching pfal, classes over the world) - check
While, at times, Johniam can be annoying, I believe he serves a greater purpose here at the café, and one for which I am grateful. Johniam reminds me of how I used to think and reason when I was in twi and under their spell. And that is a good thing for me. It is too easy to just forget how I was. And while others might want to forget, I don't. I want to remember so I can help those who continue to think this way.
Had a flashback yesterday to my twi days. I was sitting in a local restaurant with my daughter having lunch. The conversation behind me was two women talking about ordination and laying on of hands... and at the next table was a girl witnessing to her sister about the local cult (and bashing water baptism). It just reminds me of where I used to be and where I am now. I feel for these people, because when they get out they will have a lot to fix in their lives.
And then I came home tonight to find the bible fellowship (same cult - they are everywhere here) had parked literally in our front yard... ok,, well, it was two tires on our yard, but still...
Without Johniam on this board I could become callous to these people. But he is here to remind me of how I used to be and not get too high on my horse.
I personally think the term "cult" appropriately carries warning signs to avoid the "leaven of the Pharisees" and the "doctrine of the Pharisees". In modern terminology there are many kinds of cults, including the MLM cults all about money, religion, politics, and self-help cults. The whole Momentus movement incorporated in by that one splinter group is a great indicator. Mix up a little TWI cult action with a little self-help cult action and get a whole stirred-up mass of confusion.
"Cult" is about abuse. It's about robbing the little people of any dignity, self-respect, and autonomy that they normally would have in a healthy society. It's about replacing a healthy society with a little army of robots, robot-thinking and response, and denial of self all for the goals of the cult. Cult leaders have to be pied pipers able to promise the return of great things in exchange for giving up your freedom and self respect.
A cult's ONLY power over you is their authority. And they only have that authority because an individual gives it up. Once you are no longer willing to give up the authority over your life and family to an abusive overseer, they have no power. However, that's when they get ugly - with all their ex-communications in whatever form they want to call them, peer pressure, series of confrontations, etc. In fact, that's a great way to tell a cult - how adept would you say the leader is in the myriad of different ways used to bully and silence the little people?
In true Christianity, the lowest of the low have a voice.
In a cult, the only voice anyone has is the sound of the leaders' voice in their head.
"Cult" is about abuse. It's about robbing the little people of any dignity, self-respect, and autonomy that they normally would have in a healthy society. It's about replacing a healthy society with a little army of robots, robot-thinking and response, and denial of self all for the goals of the cult. Cult leaders have to be pied pipers able to promise the return of great things in exchange for giving up your freedom and self respect.
Well.....since we're broadening the reach and scope of cults where "replacing a healthy society with a little army
of robots, robot-thinking and response, and denial of self all for the goals of the cult".....
Would the cult of SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT be included?
* Where new power grids and smart-technology dictate every homeowners' mandated usage?
* Where water-rationing controls will be monitored by central command centers?
* Where gas and water and propane meters have automatic shut-off limits?
* Where U.N. globalists have been infiltrating American communities via ICLEI since 1990?
Would mandating a "healthy society" be considered an ENVIRONMENTAL CULT?
No, I wouldn't consider that a cult. There may well be tangential groups whose participants subscribe to cult-like mindset and behavior but I don't think, as a whole, those items, in themselves, represent cult behavior.
Take water, for example. Having worked in the water industry for many years, I can tell you that the average person hasn't a clue that we are on the brink of a very real water shortage. If big money oil and gas concerns continue to call the shots on fracking, we may see the tip of the iceberg in our lifetimes. It can take up to 25 million gallons of water to run one fracking well over the course of its viable lifetime. Much of that is rendered unsuitable for future use because it is laced with toxic chemicals and sealed underground, out of sight. Meanwhile, we're teaching our kids to use less water to brush their teeth, retrofitting toilets and installing faucets with quantity limiting features. That's like trying to bail out the ocean, one drop at a time. So, what I'm saying is that this one particular problem (and there are many others) requires serious investigation and action. Some people, of course, will associate themselves with cult-like thinking and align themselves with radical thinking groups in the process.
Interesting thoughts - with the UN and ICLEI there is the one world language manipulation, but probably not the hands-on micromanagement of peons required to truly rob them of their identities.
To me, more than being able to throw around the label "cult" with impunity, the value is to be able to recognize the modus operandi. Then, I can run for the hills when I see it in churches, jobs, hobbies, and my society. And I have the confidence to know that the two-bit Napolean in charge has cowardice in the dark corners of his black heart. :)
it's sad they didn't remember andy griffith at the oscar memorial tribute
i do not like steve hassan from years and years ago but i forget why
IMO GOD does.
i'm with you on that one
I also believe the majority of people who left twi still believe it was a good thing while they were there. Most of those people simply don't post here.
quote: Why does every thread become about Johniam? Can't you just ignore his least outrageous posts (at any rate) and continue the discussion without his knots in the thread?
I don't want my life dictated to me by anyone. Not by a religious organization that thinks they're God's true household and not by a special interest group that thinks I should "connect the dots" and devote the rest of my life to "cult recovery".
I don't want my life dictated to me by anyone. Not by a religious organization that thinks they're God's true household and not by a special interest group that thinks I should "connect the dots" and devote the rest of my life to "cult recovery".
Which raises a couple of questions... why DO you participate on a site dedicated to connecting the dots and cult recovery?... and why do you advocate for things so many other people here find reprehensible?
I don't want my life dictated to me by anyone. Not by a religious organization that thinks they're God's true household and not by a special interest group that thinks I should "connect the dots" and devote the rest of my life to "cult recovery".
Well, a lot of this site is about lessons learned from having our lives dictated to us by false prophets. This mostly is so we can avoid it in the future, see it coming, recognize it, pick up on the wolf in sheep's clothing stuff, etc. If you don't change yourself, how are you going to avoid what happened to you in the past?
I'm not devoting the rest of my life to "cult recovery". I have too much positive going on in my life to give any cult that much of my life and attention ever again. But I will tell the truth. And I post on this forum for community involvement.
I mean it's no skin off my nose if people want to choose to read "Lifelines" rather than "Proverbs" to get their inspiration and wisdom.
I don't want my life dictated to me by anyone. Not by a religious organization that thinks they're God's true household and not by a special interest group that thinks I should "connect the dots" and devote the rest of my life to "cult recovery".
[Apparently, either the goal of John's participation, or the Modus Operandi of John's participation,
includes fogging the issues. In this example, a False Dilemma is offered where he supposedly
is a reasonable person because he doesn't want to have his life
"dictated" to him
"by a special interest group that thinks he should
devote the rest of my life to 'cult recovery'."
Of course, nobody here claimed to want to "dictate" John's life to him.
Nobody here wanted him to "devote the rest of his life to 'cult recovery.'"
Is anyone here doing that themselves? No, but it's a tired old fiction
that the posters here are doing that and have no lives outside of this board.
John really can't tell the difference between what cults do and what
the posters here do (who disagree with each other and are obviously
the opposite of a lockstep cult), or what small towns do
(like some Mayberry), and had been proud he doesn't and has no plans
to understand the difference. It seems he's done all the growing in
life he intends to.]
Which raises a couple of questions... why DO you participate on a site dedicated to connecting the dots and cult recovery?... and why do you advocate for things so many other people here find reprehensible?
Love,
Steve
[Well, we can see the HOW is to fog the issues and pass misinformation
and remain "steadfast" in the face of contrary evidence,
never changing his mind with a fanatic fervor despite reality and him
having disconnects.
I think part of the WHY is in that as well.
That's a trademark- not of the devout- but of the fanatic.]
Well, a lot of this site is about lessons learned from having our lives dictated to us by false prophets. This mostly is so we can avoid it in the future, see it coming, recognize it, pick up on the wolf in sheep's clothing stuff, etc. If you don't change yourself, how are you going to avoid what happened to you in the past?
I'm not devoting the rest of my life to "cult recovery". I have too much positive going on in my life to give any cult that much of my life and attention ever again. But I will tell the truth. And I post on this forum for community involvement.
I mean it's no skin off my nose if people want to choose to read "Lifelines" rather than "Proverbs" to get their inspiration and wisdom.
[in John's mind, and he's had more than a decade to learn otherwise,
there's no difference between the healthy processes you're advocating,
and a fanatical zeal and life dedicated to exposing twi.
John's fantasy puts you as a person who spends all his spare time
coming up with anti-twi fictional propaganda and all your emotion
hating twi and its adherents.
But you're barely here- you live your life and visit here a few minutes here and there.
John refuses to see the difference because it is inconvenient to him,
repugnant to him. He MUST see you as unhealthy and your course as a
quote: why DO you participate on a site dedicated to connecting the dots and cult recovery?... and why do you advocate for things so many other people here find reprehensible?
quote: Well, a lot of this site is about lessons learned from having our lives dictated to us by false prophets. This mostly is so we can avoid it in the future, see it coming, recognize it, pick up on the wolf in sheep's clothing stuff, etc. If you don't change yourself, how are you going to avoid what happened to you in the past?
quote:
John really can't tell the difference between what cults do and what
the posters here do (who disagree with each other and are obviously
the opposite of a lockstep cult), or what small towns do
(like some Mayberry), and had been proud he doesn't and has no plans
to understand the difference. It seems he's done all the growing in
life he intends to.]
TWI got some things wrong, but they also got some things very RIGHT! There is a spiritual presence in this world. God's and the devil's. There is a God breathed word that God's people have always been SUPPOSED to be in subjection to. There is the wisdom of God and the wisdom of this world. Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? TWI got all that RIGHT! If you don't think that's relevant anymore...whatever. All that stuff definitely affects issues in this world. False dilemma??? Whatever.
I believe that all of you have relevant things to say. You have strengths and weaknesses like anybody else. There is not one poster here I think of as totally useless. I think you secretly think the same of me. (Sometimes he is lost in the oblivion of VP worship, but he makes some good points) Why do I post here? Because I can say things here that I can't say anywhere else. I KNOW this place. I'm not here THAT damn often anymore.
Like I say, TWI got some things right. There IS such a thing as spiritual knowledge versus natural knowledge. IMO, the idea that some guy's flesh can supercede spiritual knowledge is just plain VANITY! This whole belief system around "cult recovery" seems to negate the idea that there is ANY profit in "doing the word". Even negates the idea that there IS a word of God that God's people are supposed to be in subjection to. I call that vanity.
This thread is about the spread of cult and cult-like groups and organizations in today's society. it's not about anyone's particular, specific beliefs regarding God, the Bible, the devil, VPW, fundamentalism, inerrancy or political tendencies. Cults and cult-like groups come in all sorts of different shapes, sizes, colors, flavors....you name it. What we're talking about is how to identify them and safeguard ourselves and others from the traps and pitfalls they so often present. The aforementioned subjects are not off-limits but are misplaced in this thread. The preferred approach in discussing such things is to find another thread that is more focused on them or to simply start a new one so this one can continue in the intended direction.
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waysider
Maybe they said Aunt Bea's peach cobbler was "to die for".
waysider
In other words, you don't know and don't care. You've invented your own definition to suit your preconceived idea. Why bother even posting? If you don't understand what a cult is, how can you possibly contribute anything meaningful to the conversation?
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skyrider
Cool churches ??
Nerd churches ??
I gotta tell you, John......you are living in a parallel universe that few ever see.
But then, if I were still following the teachings of a debunked guru of black snowstorms, maybe I'd see it too.
.
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WordWolf
I used to have a working definition that sounded a bit like that.
Then again, I was a teenager at the time,
in twi,
and really didn't know how things worked (I was a teenager.)
It's a little like people who say the difference between terrorists
and a conventional military is the size of the group.
No-that's a lie, and propaganda- made to salve the consciences of people
who are sympathetic to terrorists, and WANT to think terrorism is
correct. It's an excuse to STOP thinking and wonder if they're holding
an opinion that is sound.
For those who wonder, conventional military operates under certain rules,
exemplified by the Geneva Convention and similar ideas. Terrorists do not.
Soldiers wear uniforms, terrorists specifically dress as civilians so they
can't be identified as soldiers. Soldiers confine their targets to
military concerns- terrorists will hit civilians as often as soldiers,
in fact, they hit them more often because military targets are defended
and civilians often are not in defensible positions. Soldiers attempt
to prevent "collateral damage"- they don't WANT civilians hurt if they
can accomplish their goals without hurting them, and harming civilians
is a big deal for soldiers. Terrorists are perfectly happy blowing up
a school and killing expectant mothers and children-often, they'd consider
that a noteworthy goal to accomplish.
But someone who wants to sympathize with terrorists can recite the claim
that the only differences between terrorists and soldiers is cosmetic,
and hide behind that excuse to stop thinking.
Similarly, this thread alone has had some clear, documented differences
between churches and cults, but it's possible for someone to hide
behind some clever saying or platitude and ignore the differences.
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WordWolf
[On the one hand, we have posters posting educated responses, first with
quotes from degreed experts, then with discussion of the same.
On the other hand, we have this opposing viewpoint....]
[What did it add?]
[Actually,
he may have invented his own definition.
Me, I think he was HANDED that definition and never questioned why reality clashed with
it so dramatically. It was given to him-if it was given to him- to forestall any
attempts by him to think this all through.
Worked really well, too.
He's deliberately skipping over everything refuting his belief and maintaining
his convictions like any good zealot.]
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Twinky
Now watch Johniam jump in and say something about educated responses and discussion thereof. And the "quality" of responses being aligned with one's PoV.
Why does every thread become about Johniam? Can't you just ignore his least outrageous posts (at any rate) and continue the discussion without his knots in the thread?
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skyrider
Twi is elitist, claiming a special status (true household) --- check
Leader is considered special being, avatar (THE man of God) -- check
On a special mission (teaching pfal, classes over the world) - check
Quack, quack
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skyrider
Seems like he hasn't been able to connect the dots yet
......or simply doesn't want to.
Isn't there something in scripture like that....
..."when I was a child, I spake like a child, but when
I became a man......"
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JavaJane
While, at times, Johniam can be annoying, I believe he serves a greater purpose here at the café, and one for which I am grateful. Johniam reminds me of how I used to think and reason when I was in twi and under their spell. And that is a good thing for me. It is too easy to just forget how I was. And while others might want to forget, I don't. I want to remember so I can help those who continue to think this way.
Had a flashback yesterday to my twi days. I was sitting in a local restaurant with my daughter having lunch. The conversation behind me was two women talking about ordination and laying on of hands... and at the next table was a girl witnessing to her sister about the local cult (and bashing water baptism). It just reminds me of where I used to be and where I am now. I feel for these people, because when they get out they will have a lot to fix in their lives.
And then I came home tonight to find the bible fellowship (same cult - they are everywhere here) had parked literally in our front yard... ok,, well, it was two tires on our yard, but still...
Without Johniam on this board I could become callous to these people. But he is here to remind me of how I used to be and not get too high on my horse.
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chockfull
I personally think the term "cult" appropriately carries warning signs to avoid the "leaven of the Pharisees" and the "doctrine of the Pharisees". In modern terminology there are many kinds of cults, including the MLM cults all about money, religion, politics, and self-help cults. The whole Momentus movement incorporated in by that one splinter group is a great indicator. Mix up a little TWI cult action with a little self-help cult action and get a whole stirred-up mass of confusion.
"Cult" is about abuse. It's about robbing the little people of any dignity, self-respect, and autonomy that they normally would have in a healthy society. It's about replacing a healthy society with a little army of robots, robot-thinking and response, and denial of self all for the goals of the cult. Cult leaders have to be pied pipers able to promise the return of great things in exchange for giving up your freedom and self respect.
A cult's ONLY power over you is their authority. And they only have that authority because an individual gives it up. Once you are no longer willing to give up the authority over your life and family to an abusive overseer, they have no power. However, that's when they get ugly - with all their ex-communications in whatever form they want to call them, peer pressure, series of confrontations, etc. In fact, that's a great way to tell a cult - how adept would you say the leader is in the myriad of different ways used to bully and silence the little people?
In true Christianity, the lowest of the low have a voice.
In a cult, the only voice anyone has is the sound of the leaders' voice in their head.
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WordWolf
Well said,
especially those last 2 sentences.
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skyrider
Well.....since we're broadening the reach and scope of cults where "replacing a healthy society with a little army
of robots, robot-thinking and response, and denial of self all for the goals of the cult".....
Would the cult of SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT be included?
* Where new power grids and smart-technology dictate every homeowners' mandated usage?
* Where water-rationing controls will be monitored by central command centers?
* Where gas and water and propane meters have automatic shut-off limits?
* Where U.N. globalists have been infiltrating American communities via ICLEI since 1990?
Would mandating a "healthy society" be considered an ENVIRONMENTAL CULT?
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waysider
No, I wouldn't consider that a cult. There may well be tangential groups whose participants subscribe to cult-like mindset and behavior but I don't think, as a whole, those items, in themselves, represent cult behavior.
Take water, for example. Having worked in the water industry for many years, I can tell you that the average person hasn't a clue that we are on the brink of a very real water shortage. If big money oil and gas concerns continue to call the shots on fracking, we may see the tip of the iceberg in our lifetimes. It can take up to 25 million gallons of water to run one fracking well over the course of its viable lifetime. Much of that is rendered unsuitable for future use because it is laced with toxic chemicals and sealed underground, out of sight. Meanwhile, we're teaching our kids to use less water to brush their teeth, retrofitting toilets and installing faucets with quantity limiting features. That's like trying to bail out the ocean, one drop at a time. So, what I'm saying is that this one particular problem (and there are many others) requires serious investigation and action. Some people, of course, will associate themselves with cult-like thinking and align themselves with radical thinking groups in the process.
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chockfull
Interesting thoughts - with the UN and ICLEI there is the one world language manipulation, but probably not the hands-on micromanagement of peons required to truly rob them of their identities.
To me, more than being able to throw around the label "cult" with impunity, the value is to be able to recognize the modus operandi. Then, I can run for the hills when I see it in churches, jobs, hobbies, and my society. And I have the confidence to know that the two-bit Napolean in charge has cowardice in the dark corners of his black heart. :)
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excathedra
it's sad they didn't remember andy griffith at the oscar memorial tribute
i do not like steve hassan from years and years ago but i forget why
i'm with you on that one
i'm with you on that aone too, sad to say
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skyrider
Decades ago, twi was this unsuspecting, tangible bible group that had a class "to unlock the biblical keys to scripture."
* With classes, programs and indoctrinated leadership, control measures were mandated in all aspects of life.
* Decisions on life, education, dating, spouse eligibility, pregnancy, abortion, family, etc. -- "to live the word."
* Incremental indoctrination -- so subtle, so calculating, so destructive, so deadly.
Environmental issues are being taught to elementary, middle school, high school and college students.
* Is the national and world environment of extreme, utmost importance in a balanced, healthy society? Yes.
* Are there EPA regulations and extremes so bizarre that defy common sense and logic. Yes.
* Do big corporations, greedy loggers, animal poachers, etc. need to be guarded with laws, regs and stiff penalties. Yes.
* Could environmental issues be used as a subtle, calculating, imprisoning of healthy life. Yes.
Of course, there are extreme environmental groups out there who want to issue turtle passageways to save every little turtle.
And, there are abortion rights group out there who could care less that 50 MILLION have been aborted since Roe v Wade (1973).
The pendulum is always swinging.
Who wants life dictated by overlords and mandates?
Yet, can man ever live in moderate his self-governance?
Cults in religion, politics, environment, commercial......what a world!
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excathedra
i don't want my life dictated by anyone
Decisions on life, education, dating, spouse eligibility, pregnancy, abortion, family, etc. -- "to live the word."
the above is just so stupid.
--
you know, many many religions weigh in on telling you what to do about those things. i think they're wrong also
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johniam
quote: Why does every thread become about Johniam? Can't you just ignore his least outrageous posts (at any rate) and continue the discussion without his knots in the thread?
Frayed knot!
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johniam
I don't want my life dictated to me by anyone. Not by a religious organization that thinks they're God's true household and not by a special interest group that thinks I should "connect the dots" and devote the rest of my life to "cult recovery".
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Steve Lortz
Which raises a couple of questions... why DO you participate on a site dedicated to connecting the dots and cult recovery?... and why do you advocate for things so many other people here find reprehensible?
Love,
Steve
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chockfull
Well, a lot of this site is about lessons learned from having our lives dictated to us by false prophets. This mostly is so we can avoid it in the future, see it coming, recognize it, pick up on the wolf in sheep's clothing stuff, etc. If you don't change yourself, how are you going to avoid what happened to you in the past?
I'm not devoting the rest of my life to "cult recovery". I have too much positive going on in my life to give any cult that much of my life and attention ever again. But I will tell the truth. And I post on this forum for community involvement.
I mean it's no skin off my nose if people want to choose to read "Lifelines" rather than "Proverbs" to get their inspiration and wisdom.
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WordWolf
[Apparently, either the goal of John's participation, or the Modus Operandi of John's participation,
includes fogging the issues. In this example, a False Dilemma is offered where he supposedly
is a reasonable person because he doesn't want to have his life
"dictated" to him
"by a special interest group that thinks he should
devote the rest of my life to 'cult recovery'."
Of course, nobody here claimed to want to "dictate" John's life to him.
Nobody here wanted him to "devote the rest of his life to 'cult recovery.'"
Is anyone here doing that themselves? No, but it's a tired old fiction
that the posters here are doing that and have no lives outside of this board.
John really can't tell the difference between what cults do and what
the posters here do (who disagree with each other and are obviously
the opposite of a lockstep cult), or what small towns do
(like some Mayberry), and had been proud he doesn't and has no plans
to understand the difference. It seems he's done all the growing in
life he intends to.]
[Well, we can see the HOW is to fog the issues and pass misinformation
and remain "steadfast" in the face of contrary evidence,
never changing his mind with a fanatic fervor despite reality and him
having disconnects.
I think part of the WHY is in that as well.
That's a trademark- not of the devout- but of the fanatic.]
[in John's mind, and he's had more than a decade to learn otherwise,
there's no difference between the healthy processes you're advocating,
and a fanatical zeal and life dedicated to exposing twi.
John's fantasy puts you as a person who spends all his spare time
coming up with anti-twi fictional propaganda and all your emotion
hating twi and its adherents.
But you're barely here- you live your life and visit here a few minutes here and there.
John refuses to see the difference because it is inconvenient to him,
repugnant to him. He MUST see you as unhealthy and your course as a
nonviable option in living life.]
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waysider
I just come here for the coffee and donuts.
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johniam
OK, I'm going to try to address a few things...
quote: why DO you participate on a site dedicated to connecting the dots and cult recovery?... and why do you advocate for things so many other people here find reprehensible?
quote: Well, a lot of this site is about lessons learned from having our lives dictated to us by false prophets. This mostly is so we can avoid it in the future, see it coming, recognize it, pick up on the wolf in sheep's clothing stuff, etc. If you don't change yourself, how are you going to avoid what happened to you in the past?
quote:
John really can't tell the difference between what cults do and what
the posters here do (who disagree with each other and are obviously
the opposite of a lockstep cult), or what small towns do
(like some Mayberry), and had been proud he doesn't and has no plans
to understand the difference. It seems he's done all the growing in
life he intends to.]
TWI got some things wrong, but they also got some things very RIGHT! There is a spiritual presence in this world. God's and the devil's. There is a God breathed word that God's people have always been SUPPOSED to be in subjection to. There is the wisdom of God and the wisdom of this world. Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? TWI got all that RIGHT! If you don't think that's relevant anymore...whatever. All that stuff definitely affects issues in this world. False dilemma??? Whatever.
I believe that all of you have relevant things to say. You have strengths and weaknesses like anybody else. There is not one poster here I think of as totally useless. I think you secretly think the same of me. (Sometimes he is lost in the oblivion of VP worship, but he makes some good points) Why do I post here? Because I can say things here that I can't say anywhere else. I KNOW this place. I'm not here THAT damn often anymore.
Like I say, TWI got some things right. There IS such a thing as spiritual knowledge versus natural knowledge. IMO, the idea that some guy's flesh can supercede spiritual knowledge is just plain VANITY! This whole belief system around "cult recovery" seems to negate the idea that there is ANY profit in "doing the word". Even negates the idea that there IS a word of God that God's people are supposed to be in subjection to. I call that vanity.
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waysider
This thread is about the spread of cult and cult-like groups and organizations in today's society. it's not about anyone's particular, specific beliefs regarding God, the Bible, the devil, VPW, fundamentalism, inerrancy or political tendencies. Cults and cult-like groups come in all sorts of different shapes, sizes, colors, flavors....you name it. What we're talking about is how to identify them and safeguard ourselves and others from the traps and pitfalls they so often present. The aforementioned subjects are not off-limits but are misplaced in this thread. The preferred approach in discussing such things is to find another thread that is more focused on them or to simply start a new one so this one can continue in the intended direction.
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