CULTS.....spreading forth in size and scope?

[Ham]

sometimes.. I think the agreements we make in this life are agreements of Stupidity. I'll just go along with the insanity for a moment to cop a good feeling or something..

Maybe the most troubling thought is that cults of various levels of stupidity have gained national prominence. They seem to be able to endlessly prattle and bray.

generally at the viewers, and taxpayers expense.

[waysider]

I think the agreements we make in this life are agreements of Stupidity. I'll just go along with the insanity for a moment to cop a good feeling or something..

Maybe that's it, they catch us at a moment of vulnerability.

[year2027]

the bigest cults are ones that you don not think so lets name a few

Schools

4H

sports

games

these all control your thinking

[WordWolf]

the bigest cults are ones that you don not think so lets name a few

Schools

4H

sports

games

these all control your thinking

To say that completely misses the meaning of "cults" and "thought control."

Schools are meant to EDUCATE. To a minor degree, they teach how to be a good citizen

and how to behave. (Some kids don't know how to SIT STILL and LISTEN like the rest

of the students.) The citizen thing is a very general one, and includes the local

slant on history. (Which would go off-topic, but every country does that.)

Their influence is limited, and the parent is intended to "do the heavy lifting."

4H and other clubs are VOLUNTARY CLUBS and have nothing to do with thought control

and cults.

Sports and games? Don't be silly. All of them require RULES-otherwise there's no

way to win, no way to lose, and no way to determine progress. With no rules,

there's no way to actually PLAY- and most of us would end up making up our own

rules to play anyway. Try that with a handful of friends, a ball, and some

space. Start with no game at all. I guarantee you, stay there several minutes,

it will become a simple game with simple rules- Catch, or something. People

may not announce the rules, but they'll play with them. It may not be a game

with winning and losing, but it will be a game.

With each of those, you are meant to CONTROL YOUR OWN THINKING AND CONDUCT.

The problems with them (generally, there's always someone ruining things

for everyone else) is when you FAIL to control your own thinking and conduct.

THEN the rules are used to keep you from ruining a game or activity for others.

Any activity with zero rules (like a completely unregulated messageboard)

sooner or later becomes anarchy and troll-like. Those who will always abuse

power at any level will bully others and, in effect, run things.

[Steve Lortz]

Good analysis, WordWolf!

One way of distinguishing the difference between "cult" and culture is that the leaders of a cult endeavor to make their followers deployable to a hidden agenda.

Love,

Steve

[waysider]

I think it is important to look for and at the previously noted characteristics that define a cult before declaring a group or movement to be one. For example, Rocky Horror Picture Show is often referred to as being a "cult movie". But, upon closer examination, we find the defining characteristic of a cult to be missing. For the most part, when people leave the movie theater, they don't find themselves pondering the meaning of the film or subverting themselves to a charismatic leader or reveling in "special knowledge" or recruiting new converts. Like the horror movie ads said in the 1950's, "It's only a movie.".

Edited April 6, 2013 by waysider

[excathedra]

if not a cult, there will be something else to rape people over the coals nothing new under the sun. i wish he would come back already. god, can you hear me?

[GarthP2000]

Hi folks, it me. :)

"In other words, you don't know and don't care."

... but you do. :\

"... *The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader ..." (etc. ... listed in Yet Another Book :\ )

Waysider, the 'cult' field (Yeah, there I go again, ranting about 'cults' and 'mind control'; so deal with it.), how scientific and solid is it ... really? How NOT subjective has it been determined? Yeah, yeah, I know, we're not talking about chemistry or math here. But you'd think that the 'experts' would make it more logically consistent and less 'knee-jerk' compliant than it has been already?

What you have is JUST opinion. ONLY opinion. So is mine. So are the 'experts' you may quote. You're dealing with, at best, a mixed bag of views from people (including the ones with 'degrees') who are trying to deal with those who are clearly abusive and manipulative. It's basically the way they go about it, or their 'science' they base it on that I take issue with.

P.S., IMO, the 'cult' field sure as hell isn't science. ... Not by a long shot.

[waysider]

Hey, Garth, long time no see. You have a good point about opinions and science. A good part of the information available on the subject is just opinion and there isn't nearly as much scientific data as I'd like to see. The problem is, though, you have to call it something and "yo mamma" was already taken. So, we call that kind of stuff a "cult" and work with the specifics as best we can. Like you, I think the word "cult" is used too loosely to describe things that don't fit the criteria, flawed as it may be. That's why I emphasize the need to look at the criteria, the specifics of the abuse and manipulation being discussed and see if one's experience is similar to others. If it is, then we can discuss the similarities without giving it any sort of name.

[skyrider]

Sure, there are lots of abusive and manipulative people in this world.

BUT....when a group has a set of buzzwords, inner-circle groupthink, pseudo-holiday traditions (bless & treat, ho ho relo, etc)

Maggie Muggins, Henry Balloco, and Snowball Pete introduced to the party from a stolen class, an occult 'law of believing' to

undergird the religious movement and the mog's traveling bus entertaining the ladies all the while as a symbol of his dedication

to 'move the verd'.........not sure what one would really call such a thing? Abusive Quackiness doesn't pinpoint it either.....

[waysider]

Abusive Quackiness doesn't pinpoint it either.....

Probably not but, it sure has a nice ring to it. :P

[skyrider]

Probably not but, it sure has a nice ring to it. :P/>

Yeah, then wierwille and co. are not measured by their IQ........but by their AQ.

[excathedra]

hi garth, hope you are doing well

--

--

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here is a nice article. i only read part of it, but the bit i did made sense

http://www.elizabethesther.com/2013/03/is-my-church-a-cult.html

[Steve Lortz]

hi garth, hope you are doing well

--

--

--

here is a nice article. i only read part of it, but the bit i did made sense

http://www.elizabethesther.com/2013/03/is-my-church-a-cult.html

That WAS a good article, excie! I've arrived at the place where I believe there is NO doctrine which cannot be turned into heresy, and NO faith community that cannot be turned into a cult. We ALL have to exercise our own judgment.

Love,

Steve

Edited April 8, 2013 by Steve Lortz

[year2027]

God first

thanks WordWolf

cult |kəlt|

noun

a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object: the cult of St. Olaf.

• a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister: a network of Satan-worshiping cults.

• a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing: a cult of personality surrounding the leaders.

• [ usu. as modifier ] a person or thing that is popular or fashionable, esp. among a particular section of society: a cult film.

a school is directed toward what they believe a good student should be

not saying they are right or wrong

it is contoling like anything other

if you do not learn you are called slow and so on

sports are contoling you must follow the rules

it is conroling

with love and a holy kiss from Roy

[chockfull]

One of the tough things about this field is that the word "cult" can be tossed around with little effort. Those who have experienced abuse will likely easily view their abusers as "cult members". In TWI, they dealt with the "cult" accusation by downplaying it - i.e. "the Catholic church is the biggest cult" in answering the accusation of over-reliance on one person, and the logic that "any group can be called a cult".

The first thing that started challenging that logic to me was reading "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". Now here is a book about someone trying to maintain a healthy more mainstream Christian church, and highlighting abusive behavior in the midst of it. No iconic leader, no controversial doctrine, everything else pretty standard local community church stuff. And yet, that book presents clear understanding from scripture what constitutes abusive behavior. The authors were teaching about and confronting abusive "cult-like" behavior in their church.

I like that article excie posted. What it highlights is there ARE CHARACTERISTICS OF A CULT that you can recognize and identify. And that the way you do that is by how they behave towards one another, not what they say. This lines up with Jesus teaching on knowing people by their fruits, not their words.

So in that article, the girl presents the following characteristics, which are IMO a pretty good list. If the people around you are behaving like this, you might consider the group IS displaying cult-like behavior, and look to protect yourself from the abuse and emotional damage which are ALWAYS part of that.

Characteristics from Elizabeth Esther of a cult from http://www.elizabethesther.com/2013/03/is-my-church-a-cult.html:

◾excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader (for example, always deferring to the senior pastor’s interpretation of Scripture; considering the pastor’s personal preference as spiritual mandate)

◾questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished (“sowing disunity” is code for silencing, being called into meetings to discuss disloyalty)

◾leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (ie. what to wear, where to live, dietary restrictions based on outdated or disproven science, requiring members to get permission for personal life choices, mandating how to discipline children)

◾group is elitist, claiming special, exalted status for itself (creating us vs. them mentality; “the lost” vs. “us who have the FULLNESS of truth”)

◾leadership induces feelings of shame in order to influence and control members–often done through peer pressure or subtle forms of persuasion (assigned an “accountability partner” who reports on you; lots of ‘checking-in’; enforcing unwritten rules, policing tone of voice, facial expressions)

◾preoccupied with bringing in new members (turn every opportunity into an outreach! that person you sit next to on the airplane might die tomorrow–better preach the Gospel to her!)

◾preoccupied with making money

◾members expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities (meetings, meetings, meetings!)

◾members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members (Scripture verses are used to warn against the corrupting influence of outside friends)

◾the most loyal members (“true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group (leaving the church is same as leaving God)

[outandabout]

Check all of the above.

[socks]

There's a lot of good information there chockful -

I have to say I'm not onboard with that as a means of identifying general broad "cults"- but I think it's good to have those kinds of things in mind as we make decisions.

Here's why - if we're talking about "a" cult, and characteristics of "a" cult -

I don't view Christian faith(s) as a whole from an "insiders' " viewpoint, largely because so many sects and groups, from the Roman Catholics to Wayfers, have criteria to exclude and include. There's marginalization across the board, everyone seems to do it, it's inherent to certain ideas.

It's particularly in high profile for ex Wayfer groups - for me - because that's an area I'm familiar with. They can be highly exclusionary and prone to all sorts of in bred thinking.

OR NOT - some aren't, by the standards I would apply.

On the flip side of the coin, I have relationships with many people who aren't "Christian" at all and who see the whole thing=s as a big nest of viperous cults infested with lots of good hearted but deluded people who aren't reasonable if push comes to shove because their values aren't rooted in a humanity that will work on basic levels, like really respecting life, things like that. Non "believers" see Christianity as a cult from the get go - the cult of Jesus followers, or God followers, etc. Inevitably it transfers from the Invisible Icon to a human agency - voila - cult wit yer Jesus Dudes.

I often don't feel any kinship to some churches and denominations, because there's no common ground - there is, really - but people are so prone to denigrate and devalue it and to that exclusionary mentality even when there's agreement and consistency in doctrine, concepts, values, etc. it's like they don't want to be recognized as breathing the same air as these other people.

It's a mixed bag.

As far as the Way Nash goes it's as much a "cult " as the 100's of other sects, societies, ministries, churches and organizations they rebuke themselves, sure.

The behaviors and actions are what's important. One person calls it one thing, another something else. You (euphemistically applied) can call them anything that fits this year. "Cult" is so over used a loaded term - I don't use it a lot except to deliberately get someones' attention.

The Way is like other churches though - that jerk that has the whole "man thing" going, manly men taking their rightful manly places to make the world right - don't remember his name. Or the RC religious orders and authority structure. The Pope, all of that.

To me it's all like politics - lesser of two evils, gets you evil. I prefer to separate the people from the cult. I don't have anyone that's imposing it on me or that I need to impress or needle about it. I'm mostly concerned about those nefarious Girl Scouts and their "cookies".....

[excathedra]

right outie?

no

sh

i

t

[GarthP2000]

A lot of good answers here that do a good job of endeavoring to address the points I raised earlier, ... especially Socks. :dance:/> Thanks! :)/>

And a ((( ))) to all here.

Edited April 10, 2013 by GarthP2000

[chockfull]

The behaviors and actions are what's important. One person calls it one thing, another something else. You (euphemistically applied) can call them anything that fits this year. "Cult" is so over used a loaded term - I don't use it a lot except to deliberately get someones' attention.

I know what you are saying here in your post. Yes you can have cult-like behavior from within mainstream Christianity, as highlighted by The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I am with you on relationships with non-Christians being a vital part of life, and not to undervalue non-Christians. I loved your line on a humanity that works on basic levels. Also, I still don't feel much kinship with denominations. To me there is a sickening element of "big business Christianity" that I think misses the whole intent.

What I am saying is that the generification of the word "cult" is insider behavior. It is Waybrain. Yes it is a label. Yes it is used to get attention and possibly in some cases to stir up negative emotion. And yet when we can isolate behavior like those 10 bullet points that are a heuristic that holds true when evaluating groups across boundaries like denominational affiliation, doctrinal orientation, etc. it is a mistake to discard that tool just because of how the term has been used. There is much validity to that term that should have called our attention to the bullet item behavior on that list. Calling them "characteristics of spiritual abuse" probably is more generic, mainstream, and less offensive. So I'm fine with that too.

But make no mistake. Those elements are pretty universal to how groups achieve unquestioning loyalty. And learning to recognize them in various scenarios is a valuable life skill.

[skyrider]

I know what you are saying here in your post. Yes you can have cult-like behavior from within mainstream Christianity, as highlighted by The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I am with you on relationships with non-Christians being a vital part of life....

Extreme zealousness within mainstream Christianity is one thing.......

BUT....anyone who was corps, staff or fellow-laborer in twi experienced an isolated, cult-immersed zone. Unless one was on the fringes and violated

nearly every rule and reg of twi's policies and programs......the listing of cult-characteristics (noted above) didn't even begin to cover the gamut

of manipulations and tactics of wierwille and co.

Forget about the "devoting inordinate amounts of time to the group".......twi DEMANDED you give your life to this servitude.

And, in the isolation of an Emporia campus and rigid disciplines..........the yell-fests and public character-assassinations.

With fiery confrontations and 'spiritually-possessed' labeling, the mogs wielded a power over grown men that instilled fear.

Say all you want about "cult-like behavior within mainstream Christianity"......it couldn't begin to register a 2, on a scale of 1-10, what I've experienced in twi.

Think about it? How deeply infectious this fear was (and is).....when a Ralph D. come to GSC and tells us that twi leadership "ordered" him and his family to stay

in their unit until granted permission to leave twi property. He had resigned as hq's corps coordinator and geer/martindale (??) ordered him to stay inside, not

talk to others [while they did damage control] for how long?? Five or six days? Something like that.

That's Ralph's story. He detailed it.

Sure, some folks didn't see this side of twi. I get that. And yeah, some like to remember the beer-drinking, music-jamming, fun times

and all. But, c'mon. This wasn't your vanilla-variety church group who looked for ways to raise money at bake sales.

Some even lost their lives trying to follow their rules at L.E.A.D.

And, with death......twi STILL DIDN'T CHANGE COURSE.

[krys]

With fiery confrontations and 'spiritually-possessed' labeling, the mogs wielded a power over grown men that instilled fear.

That fear, once instilled became so pervasive that even if one was no longer with the group, the fear still shook you up. Look at this web site and also WayDale. How many posters use their own names? Some do from an abundance of caution due to the evils of the time we live in now....but others wouldn't let their name out because they didn't want anyone to know they were reading these threads.

Hell - - Even though it didn't happen to me directly - - but to my son and his then-wife - - it took me 10 years before I said beans about that situation (think 98 Advanced Class in case you forgot) Why would such a think take so long....I was afraid some goombah would meet me in the ShopRite shopping alone...not 2 by 2 as were were supposed to be.....and find me doing something I wasn't supposed to do! Ten years is a whole decade.....and I only breached that conversation because I had 2 strong friends who encouraged me, who had my back so to speak. Also - - nobody insulted me by denying that it happened...nearly everyone heard something about that class that year.

[chockfull]

BUT....anyone who was corps, staff or fellow-laborer in twi experienced an isolated, cult-immersed zone. Unless one was on the fringes and violated

nearly every rule and reg of twi's policies and programs......the listing of cult-characteristics (noted above) didn't even begin to cover the gamut

of manipulations and tactics of wierwille and co.

Just going on record saying I completely agree with you because I experienced this. Yes there can be cult-like behavior within mainstream Christianity. But the extremity of manipulation I personally experienced within TWI far outpaces anything I've experienced in a church or mainstream Christianity.

To me this evil manipulative behavior and fear you experience in a cult represents the darker parts of human nature.

This is why I want to isolate the characteristics and train myself to spot them and defeat them wherever - regardless of if it is in a political community grassroots gathering, a parent teachers conference, a club of hobbyists, my job, a non-profit, or wherever people behaving like this may be found, regardless of the extremity of the behavior.

In TWI, the behavior worsened because the evil was allowed to remain unchecked. It grew so entrenched that there was no salvaging the organization. You have to leave to see the change.

[waysider]

Extreme zealousness within mainstream Christianity is one thing.......

BUT....anyone who was corps, staff or fellow-laborer in twi experienced an isolated, cult-immersed zone.

I was in FellowLaborers (Did my whole two years and then some)

The 50 of us lived in a block of rented townhouses, 6 to a townhouse. (No mingling with local populace allowed)

We got up at 5:30 AM. (5:00 AM if you had a morning responsibility, such as breakfast prep.)

Had a morning fellowship in one of the basements, where we sat cross-legged on the floor. ("Mannies", announcements, etc.)

After that, we ran our mile or did exercises if the weather was too extreme. (No big deal....gym glass type stuff) Next we moved on to breakfast in the "houses" with our smaller house groups.... Get ready for work.... Work 8 (required) hours at a secular job, with a view toward using the job as a springboard to promote PFAL. After work, move on to dinner with all 50 members at Limb HQ, using proper (Way) etiquette. Each house had an appointee who was responsible for prepping dinner, dishes, silverware, etc.) Work on Limb assignments until 9 or 10....Drive back to townhouse compound and meet in night twigs for 1/2 hour. Wash dishes and prep meals for next day.....oh, look, it's midnight....Gotta hit the sack because it's lights out and there is to be no talking after 12......Get up next day and do it all again.

Edited April 11, 2013 by waysider