It seems to me there are a lot of people, given an entire planet, that, at any time,
are willing to effectively make themselves children or slaves to one degree or another
in exchange for feeling good about themselves and simple answers to life's questions.
It's just so much easier to let someone else do the thinking for them.
There seems to be a multitude of "extreme opinion" radio and television personalities who have welcomed the opportunity to take up the mantle in this regard. There is easy access to all types of opinion. One needn't look too far to find one with which they agree.
If this seems obtuse, I promise you, that's not my intent.
I like Cheech and Chong.... always have. But, I find a bit of humorous irony in recognizing they made their fortune by making fun of the people who helped them make their fortune.
Confused yet?
I see a correlation of sorts when I see people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck, foregoing needed medical care for lack of affordable health care, etc., promoting propaganda intended to benefit the very segment of society that plays a depriving role.
Now, I don't mean to turn this into a political discussion of my point. I'm only throwing that out there as a matter of opinion. That's all it is, just an opinion.
It makes me wonder, though, if what I'm seeing is, perhaps, somewhat of a Stockholm Syndrome, on a large scale.
If this seems obtuse, I promise you, that's not my intent.
I like Cheech and Chong.... always have. But, I find a bit of humorous irony in recognizing they made their fortune by making fun of the people who helped them make their fortune.
Confused yet?
I see a correlation of sorts when I see people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck, foregoing needed medical care for lack of affordable health care, etc., promoting propaganda ......
Waysider.....yeah, I get what you're saying.
As it relates to cults, twi and pfal......I can't help but see the juxtaposed irony of wierwille's pfal-claim and built-up
of Session #5. The Christ-in-you segment. Had the devil known, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory...and have
holy spirit in each-and-everyone-who-is-born-again-of-God's-spirit.
THEN......railroad his ministry and programs diabolically opposed to individual, and spirit-led, discernment. Every class,
every program, every conference was pushing "follow the leader" mentality rather than scripture.
Did it take a 33-hr class to indoctrinate and set the hook so deeply that one found it very hard to escape?
quote: Steven Hassan, in his book Combatting Cult Mind Control: A Guide to Protection, Rescue and Recovery from Destructive Cults, lists what he feels to be the four main types of cults:
1. Religious cults -- those focused on religious dogma.
2. Political cults -- those focused on a particular political dogma.
3. Psychotherapy/Educational cults -- those which hold workshops and seminars to provide “insight” and “enlightenment,” usually in a hotel meeting-room environment.
4. Commercial cults -- which believe in the dogma of greed, and manipulate people for little or no pay in the hope of getting rich, usually through pyramid-style or multi-level marketing organizations.
Hassan maintains that the deciding factor of whether a group should be labeled with the term “cult” is that the members are secured and maintained as members through what he designates “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of control of behavior, control of thought, control of emotions, and control of information.
So...anyone who has a pov contrary to mainstream opinions is potentially leading people into a "cult", and if said person gets a lot of followers, they become a "destructive cult"??? Sounds like propaganda to me.
I've noticed that Rush Limbaugh used to refer to conservatives who lack committment as 'moderates', but now he calls them 'low information voters'.
Even if this Hassan's grouping of "cults" is true, and even if the majority of people who spent any time in these groups now feel they should have avoided the group, what are/were their alternatives? This is one of my pet peeves with GSC all this complaining, but no substitute. What? Go to college? Learn a trade? Join a church? Those things have worked for some, but not all. One of VPs initial selling points in pfal was that it would be a firm rock in the sea of speculation...or a safe anchorage in the ocean of doubt...etc.
Could it be that human nature desires this? Ezekiel says Lucifer has made the world a wilderness and some current poster has a quote from Helen Keller about how security is a myth not found in nature. Perhaps that's why another term for spiritual is 'SUPERnatural'. If any of you are going to denounce "cults" as not able to deliver a firm rock or a safe anchorage, then you need to sell me on what DOES deliver those things.
IMO GOD does. I also believe the majority of people who left twi still believe it was a good thing while they were there. Most of those people simply don't post here.
Oh, another thing.
quote: “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of control of behavior, control of thought, control of emotions, and control of information.
Any small town, like Mayberry of the old Andy Griffith show, has/had all these in play.
Johniam, using the "quote" function isn't difficult. Just click the "Reply" button under the reply you want to quote. Don't click the "Add reply" button below that. Write what you want, THEN click "Add reply" at the bottom of your response. It's quite easy, really it is.
You said, among other things:
One of VPs initial selling points in pfal was that it would be a firm rock in the sea of speculation...or a safe anchorage in the ocean of doubt...etc.
...If any of you are going to denounce "cults" as not able to deliver a firm rock or a safe anchorage, then you need to sell me on what DOES deliver those things.
And then you answered your own question:
IMO GOD does.
You're right about that. God, and His Word, and His Son Jesus Christ...that's our rock.
I don't recall that VPW said what you record in the first quote, and I don't care to try to remember. But you, you please DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF THINKING PFAL AND GOD ARE THE SAME.
I see a correlation of sorts when I see people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck, foregoing needed medical care for lack of affordable health care, etc., promoting propaganda intended to benefit the very segment of society that plays a depriving role.
I think the "occupy" movement was kind of intended to protest this type of thing. It had a lot of grassroots support but never got specific enough to enact change. But its an age-old story of human weakness - the thing of Greek tragedies, where power corrupts and the few in power use the many without power.
The only universal thread in that is that God is on the side of the downtrodden, abused, poor, those without power.
It makes me wonder, though, if what I'm seeing is, perhaps, somewhat of a Stockholm Syndrome, on a large scale.
I think if we investigated the psych field and dug into details of that as well as PTSD that we would definitely see parallels and potential for disorders developing. In fact, the emotional trauma and damage done to former followers of TWI is probably the clearest evidence you will find that TWI operates like a cult and always has.
Even if this Hassan's grouping of "cults" is true, and even if the majority of people who spent any time in these groups now feel they should have avoided the group, what are/were their alternatives? This is one of my pet peeves with GSC all this complaining, but no substitute.
First of all, Hassan's primary groupings of cults involves SPHERES OF CONTROL: 1) behavior, thought, emotions, information. The dogma, or directives, of each grouping (religious, political, psychotherapy/educational or commercial) has a discernible agenda of a controlling message that attempts to marginalize and/or isolate other alternatives. Heck, any class in Psychology 101 or Marketing 101 could easily aid one's understanding in all this.
The deception of twi was the presentation of one thing (rock-solid truth)....and standing on another (a foundation of sand). As years went by, many of us who applied wierwille's teachings to life, child-rearing, business, educational pursuits, marriage, etc. FOUND SINK HOLES IN HIS TEACHINGS AND THUNDER CLAPS OF AN AUTHORITARIAN HEAVY FIST. The scriptures DISQUALIFIED wierwille from an overseer in the church. He didn't meet the basic threshold of a bishop.
You want a substitute, John? You want to know the alternatives?
How about doing what Jesus did......not just twi's pseudo-teaching, but DOING!
Teaching, praying, doing......the power of God in demonstration.
Teaching about the wheat AND tares......wheat AND chaff.
Not following the traditions of men, the statues of vanity.
Refuting pride, arrogance and a haughty spirit.
Helping people, praying and uplifting people.
Living like Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Timothy, Titus, Stephen....
Men who hazarded their lives for the gospels' sake.....
Each living dynamically, and uniquely, via a spirit-led calling.
Some of us believed the simple truths of scripture and went forth to live it.
Yet, wierwille and co. heaped burdens of vanity, idolatry and sin in our pathway.
Did wierwille LOVE HIS WIFE as christ loved the church?
Did wierwille tenderly care for the weak and hurt on the WOW field? or the Way Corps?
Did wierwille valiantly live for the Lord......or selfishly indulge in booze, women and comforts?
Did wierwille's leaders rebuke wierwille's sins and rebuke that lifestyle or embrace it?
Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Rivenbark, etc.......none arose to stop the sin cycle.
The choice had to be made........."As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
quote: I don't recall that VPW said what you record in the first quote,
Twinky:
1) VP said the things about the firm rock and safe anchorage in the opening remarks of session 1 of pfal.
2) I paste quotes the way I do for 2 reasons. First, as with this post, I don't want to repeat the entire post; just the sentence I quoted. Second, doing it this way emphasizes the words quoted, not who posted them. That's my prerogative isn't it?
Hassan maintains that the deciding factor of whether a group should be labeled with the term “cult” is that the members are secured and maintained as members through what he designates “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of
control of behavior,
control of thought,
control of emotions, and
control of information.
So...anyone who has a pov contrary to mainstream opinions is potentially leading people into a "cult", and if said person gets a lot of followers, they become a "destructive cult"??? Sounds like propaganda to me.
[it sounds like propaganda to me too, but you're the one who invented it, and you did it
QUICKLY and OVERTLY. Worst of all, you didn't even realize you DID IT.
There was a breakdown of 4 different dimensions of control,
and you completely discarded that and pretended it said something like
"pov contrary to mainstream opinions."
You really don't understand the difference between polite society and civilization,
and controlling cadres, do you?]
quote: “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of control of behavior, control of thought, control of emotions, and control of information.
Any small town, like Mayberry of the old Andy Griffith show, has/had all these in play.
[Answered my question pretty fast. You CAN'T tell the difference between, say
MAYBERRY (your example) and control groups like
Jim Jones' Jonestown (where people committed suicide on command)
Charles Manson's "the Family" (where people committed murder on command)
David Koresh's Branch Davidians (where people let their leader have sex with their underage daughters and wives)
"Heaven's Gate" (where people committed suicide on command) ]
It was a popular American T.V. show in the 1950's, Twinky, that overly romanticized the simple life in rural America. I haven't the foggiest idea why Johniam associates this with cults.
did you ever consider that you are standing, waving your hands, while standing on a track, well, lubricated, with a freight train heading in your own, personal, direction?
quote: It was a popular American T.V. show in the 1950's, Twinky, that overly romanticized the simple life in rural America. I haven't the foggiest idea why Johniam associates this with cults.
The show premiered in 1960. It was spawned by a 1959 movie called 'No time for sergeants' starring Andy Griffith and Nick Adams. Funny movie. IMO this show did accurately represent small town America at that time and for more than a decade later. All the dynamics that supposedly constitute a "cult" are/were in place in those small towns. I used to hitchhike a lot between 1970 and 1975. Went through a lot of small towns. Saw the paranoid looks on people's faces. Heard the negative comments. Got detained by police a few times. Why? Because my hair (when I HAD hair) was down to the middle of my back. This automatically made me a queer, communist, drug user, and rock and roll listener. Those were the 4 mortal sins in many small towns. I was actually guilty of 2 of them.
Even in my high school there was this one kid who was totally into politics. He was so full of himself that he acted like an elite politician, like one of the Kennedys. I may have had long hair, but I had no political consciousness whatsoever. I just liked to party. But this guy one day during government class informed me that him and his republican buddies were going to "rub out" us "pinkos" eventually. I said good for you.
But you don't have to be in a so called religious cult to have imformation selected and portioned out to you. IMO those who voted for Obama are being emotionally controlled. Nobody is sticking a gun to their heads, but they're getting their information in the same one sided way that Hassan says "cults do. I'd rather compare twi to Mayberry than Jonestown. Neither is totally accurate, but Mayberry is much closer.
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
*The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
*Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
*Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
*The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
*The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
*The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
*The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
*The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
*The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
*Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
*The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
*The group is preoccupied with making money.
*Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
*Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
*The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.
did you ever consider that you are standing, waving your hands, while standing on a track, well, lubricated, with a freight train heading in your own, personal, direction?
not that I think I'm so great worth quoting or anything. But in a slightly more sober moment..
The Cults of Stupidity seem to all be running full steam, finely oiled, and on a rather unencumbered set of steel rails. Cults of Stupidity. Both religious and political. Debate with them? Nooooo. Not possible.
Did we really need session #7 to convince us to avoid reason and logic? More and more, I'm starting to think that's something that's built into human nature. Wierwille just capitalized on it. It's like teaching an animal to do tricks. You just get them to do things they're predisposed to and make it appear that you're in control.
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waysider
Maybe they said Aunt Bea's peach cobbler was "to die for".
WordWolf
I agree with the quote you posted, and I think it's not "NOW the cults are arriving."
I think these problems, with variations, are centuries and centuries old.
What is newer is A) mass-production of books to spread information around the world
B) the internet, allowing the spread of information to people around the world QUICKLY
===================
It seems to me there are a lot of people, given an entire planet, that, at any time,
are willing to effectively make themselves children or slaves to one degree or another
in exchange for feeling good about themselves and simple answers to life's questions.
It's just so much easier to let someone else do the thinking for them.
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waysider
There seems to be a multitude of "extreme opinion" radio and television personalities who have welcomed the opportunity to take up the mantle in this regard. There is easy access to all types of opinion. One needn't look too far to find one with which they agree.
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skyrider
Yes.....centuries and centuries old.
With regards to mass-production and the capitalistic system, it seems like there was a major breakthrough
around 1965 of the reel-to-reel audio/video format to VHS cassette tapes and later, or portable versions
and then.....DVDs and such. Now, anyone can secure a motel/conference room and conduct seminars that have
a "global scope" approach.
Back in 1990, I attended an NSA meeting designed on MLM techniques and health/environmental issues. When
the meeting started, they immeadiately shut the doors, the lights went down and the 40-minute video was to
entice and captivate one's attention and buy-in to this "opportunity." With another 20 minutes of live
testimony, the four "marketers" were quick to work the attendees before they walked out. It was a "sign-up"
to get involved at the ground level of this new market.
Of course, I thought clean water and air filtration was important......but, was I willing to invest $5,100
to market their product and get in on this "ground level opportunity" of this MLM product? NO.
PFAL was filmed at an opportunist point of a/v format and advancement. "Take the Class" was the clarion call
at the time......and, 33-hrs later, the student had the answers to the more abundant life. Hahahahaha....its
all so surreal to think back on those days.
But hey, at least I didn't get caught up in following Charles Manson's lead.
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waysider
If this seems obtuse, I promise you, that's not my intent.
I like Cheech and Chong.... always have. But, I find a bit of humorous irony in recognizing they made their fortune by making fun of the people who helped them make their fortune.
Confused yet?
I see a correlation of sorts when I see people who are living paycheck-to-paycheck, foregoing needed medical care for lack of affordable health care, etc., promoting propaganda intended to benefit the very segment of society that plays a depriving role.
Now, I don't mean to turn this into a political discussion of my point. I'm only throwing that out there as a matter of opinion. That's all it is, just an opinion.
It makes me wonder, though, if what I'm seeing is, perhaps, somewhat of a Stockholm Syndrome, on a large scale.
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skyrider
Waysider.....yeah, I get what you're saying.
As it relates to cults, twi and pfal......I can't help but see the juxtaposed irony of wierwille's pfal-claim and built-up
of Session #5. The Christ-in-you segment. Had the devil known, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory...and have
holy spirit in each-and-everyone-who-is-born-again-of-God's-spirit.
THEN......railroad his ministry and programs diabolically opposed to individual, and spirit-led, discernment. Every class,
every program, every conference was pushing "follow the leader" mentality rather than scripture.
Did it take a 33-hr class to indoctrinate and set the hook so deeply that one found it very hard to escape?
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waysider
No. (my personal belief)
I think it happened when he convinced us (in session 7?) that there was danger in giving considered thought to what he was pitching.
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johniam
quote: Steven Hassan, in his book Combatting Cult Mind Control: A Guide to Protection, Rescue and Recovery from Destructive Cults, lists what he feels to be the four main types of cults:
1. Religious cults -- those focused on religious dogma.
2. Political cults -- those focused on a particular political dogma.
3. Psychotherapy/Educational cults -- those which hold workshops and seminars to provide “insight” and “enlightenment,” usually in a hotel meeting-room environment.
4. Commercial cults -- which believe in the dogma of greed, and manipulate people for little or no pay in the hope of getting rich, usually through pyramid-style or multi-level marketing organizations.
Hassan maintains that the deciding factor of whether a group should be labeled with the term “cult” is that the members are secured and maintained as members through what he designates “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of control of behavior, control of thought, control of emotions, and control of information.
So...anyone who has a pov contrary to mainstream opinions is potentially leading people into a "cult", and if said person gets a lot of followers, they become a "destructive cult"??? Sounds like propaganda to me.
I've noticed that Rush Limbaugh used to refer to conservatives who lack committment as 'moderates', but now he calls them 'low information voters'.
Even if this Hassan's grouping of "cults" is true, and even if the majority of people who spent any time in these groups now feel they should have avoided the group, what are/were their alternatives? This is one of my pet peeves with GSC all this complaining, but no substitute. What? Go to college? Learn a trade? Join a church? Those things have worked for some, but not all. One of VPs initial selling points in pfal was that it would be a firm rock in the sea of speculation...or a safe anchorage in the ocean of doubt...etc.
Could it be that human nature desires this? Ezekiel says Lucifer has made the world a wilderness and some current poster has a quote from Helen Keller about how security is a myth not found in nature. Perhaps that's why another term for spiritual is 'SUPERnatural'. If any of you are going to denounce "cults" as not able to deliver a firm rock or a safe anchorage, then you need to sell me on what DOES deliver those things.
IMO GOD does. I also believe the majority of people who left twi still believe it was a good thing while they were there. Most of those people simply don't post here.
Oh, another thing.
quote: “Cult Mind Control,” which consists of control of behavior, control of thought, control of emotions, and control of information.
Any small town, like Mayberry of the old Andy Griffith show, has/had all these in play.
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waysider
Strawman argument.
You've twisted Hassan's words to make it look like he said something he never said.
Could it be you get so riled up about this stuff because you just can't accept you were duped like the rest of us?
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Twinky
Johniam, using the "quote" function isn't difficult. Just click the "Reply" button under the reply you want to quote. Don't click the "Add reply" button below that. Write what you want, THEN click "Add reply" at the bottom of your response. It's quite easy, really it is.
You said, among other things:
And then you answered your own question:
You're right about that. God, and His Word, and His Son Jesus Christ...that's our rock.
I don't recall that VPW said what you record in the first quote, and I don't care to try to remember. But you, you please DO NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF THINKING PFAL AND GOD ARE THE SAME.
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chockfull
I think the "occupy" movement was kind of intended to protest this type of thing. It had a lot of grassroots support but never got specific enough to enact change. But its an age-old story of human weakness - the thing of Greek tragedies, where power corrupts and the few in power use the many without power.
The only universal thread in that is that God is on the side of the downtrodden, abused, poor, those without power.
I think if we investigated the psych field and dug into details of that as well as PTSD that we would definitely see parallels and potential for disorders developing. In fact, the emotional trauma and damage done to former followers of TWI is probably the clearest evidence you will find that TWI operates like a cult and always has.
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skyrider
First of all, Hassan's primary groupings of cults involves SPHERES OF CONTROL: 1) behavior, thought, emotions, information. The dogma, or directives, of each grouping (religious, political, psychotherapy/educational or commercial) has a discernible agenda of a controlling message that attempts to marginalize and/or isolate other alternatives. Heck, any class in Psychology 101 or Marketing 101 could easily aid one's understanding in all this.
The deception of twi was the presentation of one thing (rock-solid truth)....and standing on another (a foundation of sand). As years went by, many of us who applied wierwille's teachings to life, child-rearing, business, educational pursuits, marriage, etc. FOUND SINK HOLES IN HIS TEACHINGS AND THUNDER CLAPS OF AN AUTHORITARIAN HEAVY FIST. The scriptures DISQUALIFIED wierwille from an overseer in the church. He didn't meet the basic threshold of a bishop.
You want a substitute, John? You want to know the alternatives?
How about doing what Jesus did......not just twi's pseudo-teaching, but DOING!
Teaching, praying, doing......the power of God in demonstration.
Teaching about the wheat AND tares......wheat AND chaff.
Not following the traditions of men, the statues of vanity.
Refuting pride, arrogance and a haughty spirit.
Helping people, praying and uplifting people.
Living like Paul, Silas, Barnabus, Timothy, Titus, Stephen....
Men who hazarded their lives for the gospels' sake.....
Each living dynamically, and uniquely, via a spirit-led calling.
Some of us believed the simple truths of scripture and went forth to live it.
Yet, wierwille and co. heaped burdens of vanity, idolatry and sin in our pathway.
Did wierwille LOVE HIS WIFE as christ loved the church?
Did wierwille tenderly care for the weak and hurt on the WOW field? or the Way Corps?
Did wierwille valiantly live for the Lord......or selfishly indulge in booze, women and comforts?
Did wierwille's leaders rebuke wierwille's sins and rebuke that lifestyle or embrace it?
Martindale, Geer, Lynn, Rivenbark, etc.......none arose to stop the sin cycle.
The choice had to be made........."As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
.
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johniam
quote: I don't recall that VPW said what you record in the first quote,
Twinky:
1) VP said the things about the firm rock and safe anchorage in the opening remarks of session 1 of pfal.
2) I paste quotes the way I do for 2 reasons. First, as with this post, I don't want to repeat the entire post; just the sentence I quoted. Second, doing it this way emphasizes the words quoted, not who posted them. That's my prerogative isn't it?
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skyrider
No problem.
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waysider
Like that?
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WordWolf
[The normal way does it just as well, and has several advantages over your way.
The rest of us will post "(snip)" when we make partial quotes so it's obvious there's
more but we don't consider it relevant to what we are responding to.
With the quoteback, anyone can confirm we're fairly quoting someone by looking
at the original quote.]
[it IS, but it's also used to be deceptive and lazy-
if not by you and not in this post.
It prevents an efficient method-already in effect- to go back and read the entire post.
If the discussion is active, we may have to hunt for PAGES to find JUST what you're
talking about. How are we to know if anybody DID say it or if you're fairly
representing what was said in your quote? Some quotes will fairly represent what's
said, some will not. ("The Bible says 'There is no God.'")
At the GSC, it's not uncommon for someone to selectively quote something, complain that
the poster never addressed a problem, and leave the source-post vague...
and when someone finds it and reads it, the problem WAS addressed-and answered.
If you have actual issues with using the very simple button,
you could always do what I do when I think the quote thing is not working.
I put the thread name (or say "this thread" if it's the same thread),
the page#, the post#, the poster's name, and the date/time of the post.
Anyone can check up fairly easily and see if I'm representing what they said
fairly.]
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WordWolf
[it sounds like propaganda to me too, but you're the one who invented it, and you did it
QUICKLY and OVERTLY. Worst of all, you didn't even realize you DID IT.
There was a breakdown of 4 different dimensions of control,
and you completely discarded that and pretended it said something like
"pov contrary to mainstream opinions."
You really don't understand the difference between polite society and civilization,
and controlling cadres, do you?]
[Answered my question pretty fast. You CAN'T tell the difference between, say
MAYBERRY (your example) and control groups like
Jim Jones' Jonestown (where people committed suicide on command)
Charles Manson's "the Family" (where people committed murder on command)
David Koresh's Branch Davidians (where people let their leader have sex with their underage daughters and wives)
"Heaven's Gate" (where people committed suicide on command) ]
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waysider
Maybe they said Aunt Bea's peach cobbler was "to die for".
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Twinky
:offtopic:/> Ummm...Mayberry...what are you talking about now?
I don't really want an answer to that, it's just that the response seems a very long way from the thread topic.
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waysider
It was a popular American T.V. show in the 1950's, Twinky, that overly romanticized the simple life in rural America. I haven't the foggiest idea why Johniam associates this with cults.
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Ham
did you ever consider that you are standing, waving your hands, while standing on a track, well, lubricated, with a freight train heading in your own, personal, direction?
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johniam
quote: It was a popular American T.V. show in the 1950's, Twinky, that overly romanticized the simple life in rural America. I haven't the foggiest idea why Johniam associates this with cults.
The show premiered in 1960. It was spawned by a 1959 movie called 'No time for sergeants' starring Andy Griffith and Nick Adams. Funny movie. IMO this show did accurately represent small town America at that time and for more than a decade later. All the dynamics that supposedly constitute a "cult" are/were in place in those small towns. I used to hitchhike a lot between 1970 and 1975. Went through a lot of small towns. Saw the paranoid looks on people's faces. Heard the negative comments. Got detained by police a few times. Why? Because my hair (when I HAD hair) was down to the middle of my back. This automatically made me a queer, communist, drug user, and rock and roll listener. Those were the 4 mortal sins in many small towns. I was actually guilty of 2 of them.
Even in my high school there was this one kid who was totally into politics. He was so full of himself that he acted like an elite politician, like one of the Kennedys. I may have had long hair, but I had no political consciousness whatsoever. I just liked to party. But this guy one day during government class informed me that him and his republican buddies were going to "rub out" us "pinkos" eventually. I said good for you.
But you don't have to be in a so called religious cult to have imformation selected and portioned out to you. IMO those who voted for Obama are being emotionally controlled. Nobody is sticking a gun to their heads, but they're getting their information in the same one sided way that Hassan says "cults do. I'd rather compare twi to Mayberry than Jonestown. Neither is totally accurate, but Mayberry is much closer.
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waysider
John
I don't mean this to sound disrespectful but, I don't think you actually understand what a cult is. Take a moment to glance at the following snippet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups - Revised
Janja Lalich, Ph.D. & Michael D. Langone, Ph.D.
Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may have been manipulated, exploited, even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may be helpful in assessing a particular group or relationship.
Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult. This is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.
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*The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
*Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
*Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
*The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
*The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
*The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
*The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
*The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
*The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
*Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
*The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
*The group is preoccupied with making money.
*Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
*Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
*The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
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This checklist will be published in the new book, Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.
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Ham
not that I think I'm so great worth quoting or anything. But in a slightly more sober moment..
The Cults of Stupidity seem to all be running full steam, finely oiled, and on a rather unencumbered set of steel rails. Cults of Stupidity. Both religious and political. Debate with them? Nooooo. Not possible.
I think that is what I meant at the moment..
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waysider
Did we really need session #7 to convince us to avoid reason and logic? More and more, I'm starting to think that's something that's built into human nature. Wierwille just capitalized on it. It's like teaching an animal to do tricks. You just get them to do things they're predisposed to and make it appear that you're in control.
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