The doctrine Crist is teaching was the invention of John Darby in the early- to mid-1800s. It depends on reading the meaning of "a period of time" into the word "dispensation". Dispensation NEVER means "a period of time" in the Bible. It means "management".
The Bible sets forth a plan of "ages" using the word "aion", which the KJV translates "world". Darby's "plan of the ages" contradicts what the Bible actually says about ages.
Darby taught that the Church is completely separate and discontinuous from Israel. In truth, the Church consists of the believing remnant of Israel, under the New Testament prophesied in Jeremiah 31, with believing gentiles grafted in on the same basis as believing Israel, by grace through faith in the resurrection and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
If it is true that NO prophecy of the Old Testament or the Gospels can be applied to the Church, then the cross of Christ has NOTHING to do with the Church!
Darby was wrong. Wierwille was wrong. Crist is wrong.
The doctrine Crist is teaching was the invention of John Darby in the early- to mid-1800s. It depends on reading the meaning of "a period of time" into the word "dispensation". Dispensation NEVER means "a period of time" in the Bible. It means "management".
The Bible sets forth a plan of "ages" using the word "aion", which the KJV translates "world". Darby's "plan of the ages" contradicts what the Bible actually says about ages.
Darby taught that the Church is completely separate and discontinuous from Israel. In truth, the Church consists of the believing remnant of Israel, under the New Testament prophesied in Jeremiah 31, with believing gentiles grafted in on the same basis as believing Israel, by grace through faith in the resurrection and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
If it is true that NO prophecy of the Old Testament or the Gospels can be applied to the Church, then the cross of Christ has NOTHING to do with the Church!
Darby was wrong. Wierwille was wrong. Crist is wrong.
Love,
Steve
Hi Steve, I must disagree, here is a cool teaching just about what your concerns are.
I'm sorry, teachmevp, but there is no "age of grace" in the Word of God. In Ephesians 3:1-3,6 Paul wrote, "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation (oikonomia = "management") of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery... That the gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
God extended grace to believing gentiles, that they could be included with the remnant of Israel, inheriting with Israel resurrection life in the age to come, that they could also be members of the body of Christ along with believing Israel, and that they could share with the remnant of Israel of God's promise in Christ by the gospel.
God showed this grace to Paul and made him responsible for managing the knowledge of this grace. That's why Paul says "the dispensation (responsibility to manage) of the grace of God which is given me to youward..."
It is NOT a period of time... there are NOT two separate programs, one for a physical Israel on earth, and another for a spiritual Church in heaven.
There is NOTHING called a "rapture" in the Bible. It is ALWAYS called a "gathering" together, and it's always applied to Israel. Members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ by the one flesh relationship of Genesis 2:24, are going to have to endure every bit as much tribulation as anybody else.
Sorry, teachmevp, but Wierwille was a conman. Crist may honestly think he is telling the truth, but he has been swindled, just as surely as Wierwille swindled us.
You need to open your ears and your heart to listen to a few other people.
Maybe even (gasp) go to a church or two.
You'll hear a good many teachers, and a good many teachers teaching about and living grace, too.
To many ministers of righteousness in all them there churches now-a-days, they fail when it comes to teaching.
I'm sorry, teachmevp, but there is no "age of grace" in the Word of God. In Ephesians 3:1-3,6 Paul wrote, "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation (oikonomia = "management") of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery... That the gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
God extended grace to believing gentiles, that they could be included with the remnant of Israel, inheriting with Israel resurrection life in the age to come, that they could also be members of the body of Christ along with believing Israel, and that they could share with the remnant of Israel of God's promise in Christ by the gospel.
God showed this grace to Paul and made him responsible for managing the knowledge of this grace. That's why Paul says "the dispensation (responsibility to manage) of the grace of God which is given me to youward..."
It is NOT a period of time... there are NOT two separate programs, one for a physical Israel on earth, and another for a spiritual Church in heaven.
There is NOTHING called a "rapture" in the Bible. It is ALWAYS called a "gathering" together, and it's always applied to Israel. Members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ by the one flesh relationship of Genesis 2:24, are going to have to endure every bit as much tribulation as anybody else.
Sorry, teachmevp, but Wierwille was a conman. Crist may honestly think he is telling the truth, but he has been swindled, just as surely as Wierwille swindled us.
You're right about one thing, teachmevp, Crist's teachings are EXACTLY why the Way is what it is. Wierwille taught error, the exact same errors Crist is teaching, without allowing anybody to ask questions. If we were allowed to ask questions of Crist, the way Raf asked questions of PFAL, it would be obvious to everybody that Crist is teaching the same errors Wierwille did.
I'm sorry, teachmevp, but there is no "age of grace" in the Word of God. In Ephesians 3:1-3,6 Paul wrote, "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation (oikonomia = "management") of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery... That the gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
God extended grace to believing gentiles, that they could be included with the remnant of Israel, inheriting with Israel resurrection life in the age to come, that they could also be members of the body of Christ along with believing Israel, and that they could share with the remnant of Israel of God's promise in Christ by the gospel.
God showed this grace to Paul and made him responsible for managing the knowledge of this grace. That's why Paul says "the dispensation (responsibility to manage) of the grace of God which is given me to youward..."
It is NOT a period of time... there are NOT two separate programs, one for a physical Israel on earth, and another for a spiritual Church in heaven.
There is NOTHING called a "rapture" in the Bible. It is ALWAYS called a "gathering" together, and it's always applied to Israel. Members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ by the one flesh relationship of Genesis 2:24, are going to have to endure every bit as much tribulation as anybody else.
Sorry, teachmevp, but Wierwille was a conman. Crist may honestly think he is telling the truth, but he has been swindled, just as surely as Wierwille swindled us.
Love,
Syeve
I'll agree with you about the "dispensation" being a misnomer-I've been translating it "STEWARDSHIP"
rather than "ADMINISTRATION" even during my twi days, which is probably one reason I skipped the
intellectual blind-spots that are easy to acquire when thinking "administration" in the contemporary US.
(The connotations may have been different in 1611 than now.)
That made it more about RESPONSIBILITY and about what is God's rather than PRIVILEGES which vpw pushed,
whether accurate or not. (And when not, VERY wrong.)
I'll also agree the term "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, but I'll firmly DISagree as to
whether the CONCEPT appears there and calling it a "rapture" is a modern convenience so that
everyone understands each other, whether or not it's the name I would have selected.
Having examined the Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and the precedents in the Old Testament,
I have concluded that there will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
I have, however, come to very different conclusions than twi as to what will happen at
"Judgement Day"-particularly for the Second Resurrection/Resurrection of the Unjustified/
Resurrection of Judgement.
I don't think any of that, in and of itself, is relevant to why twi was/is how it was/is.
I think vpw was a lazy man, a dishonest man, and a sociopath. That made him a man whose
conscience was non-functioning, who also thought he should get whatever he could get
without any regard for hurting others so long as he could avoid getting caught.
A consequence of that was vpw constructing a theology that immunized him from consequences
of his actions. To this day, defenders of his legend refuse to even acknowledge the
Epistle verses that say that he won't "inherit the kingdom of God." I'm not sure
what that DOES mean, but it sounds REALLY serious-the opposite of every sin of his just
covered by Jesus without consequence, and swept under the rug by God because
"we are under Grace."
There's a lot about that I won't even pretend to understand, but the idea that there's
ZERO consequences never sat well with me, and I think it's UNBIBLICAL.
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Steve Lortz
The doctrine Crist is teaching was the invention of John Darby in the early- to mid-1800s. It depends on reading the meaning of "a period of time" into the word "dispensation". Dispensation NEVER means "a period of time" in the Bible. It means "management".
The Bible sets forth a plan of "ages" using the word "aion", which the KJV translates "world". Darby's "plan of the ages" contradicts what the Bible actually says about ages.
Darby taught that the Church is completely separate and discontinuous from Israel. In truth, the Church consists of the believing remnant of Israel, under the New Testament prophesied in Jeremiah 31, with believing gentiles grafted in on the same basis as believing Israel, by grace through faith in the resurrection and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
If it is true that NO prophecy of the Old Testament or the Gospels can be applied to the Church, then the cross of Christ has NOTHING to do with the Church!
Darby was wrong. Wierwille was wrong. Crist is wrong.
Love,
Steve
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teachmevp
Hi Steve, I must disagree, here is a cool teaching just about what your concerns are.
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Twinky
You need to open your ears and your heart to listen to a few other people.
Maybe even (gasp) go to a church or two.
You'll hear a good many teachers, and a good many teachers teaching about and living grace, too.
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Steve Lortz
I'm sorry, teachmevp, but there is no "age of grace" in the Word of God. In Ephesians 3:1-3,6 Paul wrote, "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation (oikonomia = "management") of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery... That the gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
God extended grace to believing gentiles, that they could be included with the remnant of Israel, inheriting with Israel resurrection life in the age to come, that they could also be members of the body of Christ along with believing Israel, and that they could share with the remnant of Israel of God's promise in Christ by the gospel.
God showed this grace to Paul and made him responsible for managing the knowledge of this grace. That's why Paul says "the dispensation (responsibility to manage) of the grace of God which is given me to youward..."
It is NOT a period of time... there are NOT two separate programs, one for a physical Israel on earth, and another for a spiritual Church in heaven.
There is NOTHING called a "rapture" in the Bible. It is ALWAYS called a "gathering" together, and it's always applied to Israel. Members of the Church, which is the Body of Christ by the one flesh relationship of Genesis 2:24, are going to have to endure every bit as much tribulation as anybody else.
Sorry, teachmevp, but Wierwille was a conman. Crist may honestly think he is telling the truth, but he has been swindled, just as surely as Wierwille swindled us.
Love,
Syeve
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teachmevp
To many ministers of righteousness in all them there churches now-a-days, they fail when it comes to teaching.
Study this teaching?
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Steve Lortz
You're right about one thing, teachmevp, Crist's teachings are EXACTLY why the Way is what it is. Wierwille taught error, the exact same errors Crist is teaching, without allowing anybody to ask questions. If we were allowed to ask questions of Crist, the way Raf asked questions of PFAL, it would be obvious to everybody that Crist is teaching the same errors Wierwille did.
Yes this IS why the Way is what it is!
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
I'll agree with you about the "dispensation" being a misnomer-I've been translating it "STEWARDSHIP"
rather than "ADMINISTRATION" even during my twi days, which is probably one reason I skipped the
intellectual blind-spots that are easy to acquire when thinking "administration" in the contemporary US.
(The connotations may have been different in 1611 than now.)
That made it more about RESPONSIBILITY and about what is God's rather than PRIVILEGES which vpw pushed,
whether accurate or not. (And when not, VERY wrong.)
I'll also agree the term "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, but I'll firmly DISagree as to
whether the CONCEPT appears there and calling it a "rapture" is a modern convenience so that
everyone understands each other, whether or not it's the name I would have selected.
Having examined the Epistles, the Book of Revelation, and the precedents in the Old Testament,
I have concluded that there will be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
I have, however, come to very different conclusions than twi as to what will happen at
"Judgement Day"-particularly for the Second Resurrection/Resurrection of the Unjustified/
Resurrection of Judgement.
I don't think any of that, in and of itself, is relevant to why twi was/is how it was/is.
I think vpw was a lazy man, a dishonest man, and a sociopath. That made him a man whose
conscience was non-functioning, who also thought he should get whatever he could get
without any regard for hurting others so long as he could avoid getting caught.
A consequence of that was vpw constructing a theology that immunized him from consequences
of his actions. To this day, defenders of his legend refuse to even acknowledge the
Epistle verses that say that he won't "inherit the kingdom of God." I'm not sure
what that DOES mean, but it sounds REALLY serious-the opposite of every sin of his just
covered by Jesus without consequence, and swept under the rug by God because
"we are under Grace."
There's a lot about that I won't even pretend to understand, but the idea that there's
ZERO consequences never sat well with me, and I think it's UNBIBLICAL.
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