Having grown up a roman catholic I was quite surprised to hear about pope benedict's retirement. I also heard that its more than 600 years since a pope has resigned or been deposed, a polite word for re leaved of duty. But, that is quite something to say for the catholic church.
I didn't think popes could quit actually. I thought they had to did in office.
I'm glad he retired, if his strength and health prevent him carrying out his duties. Sounds like he retires to the Vatican's equivalent of a villa, with his own staff and round the clock security.
Your donations at work to support the priestly "vow of poverty".
Because it's so highly unusual for a Pope to retire this side of 6 feet under a side of me figures there are larger forces at work like Catholic and global politics. I mean, you look at some of those guys, God love 'em but they couldn't stand up straight or speak without wheezing.
More power to him - he's got the golden ring to retirement heaven for a priest...as long as this isn't really the first step to some future "accident". (Just another Nutty Conspiracy) />
True, WW. Usually they go until they expire. I'm sure Catholics will sleep better knowing this one's final years are spent in relative comfort. For an Emperor.
I think, in the circumstances, it's a brave decision. He watched the previous Pope declining, didn't want that for himself, knew it was all too much. He's an old man. Realistic about his declining health. Recently (3 months ago) had an op to upgrade his pacemaker.
No doubt there will always be some controversy about whether he went voluntarily or was pushed. It is said his decision took everyone by surprise. I'm sure he had some confidants though with whom he must have discussed, researched protocols, etc.
The divine right of Popes...to die in office?
Interestingly, but completely off topic, the queen of the Netherlands has just, at the age of 75, abdicated in favour of her son. And she's not even "past it" mentally or physically. Just ready to let a younger generation deal with the problems of today. While still being around to offer the wisdom of age.
And the Archbishop of Canterbury, leader of the Anglican church, retired at the end of last year and a new man has been elected, to take over. (quote)In his opening statement at Lambeth Palace, Bishop Justin said he was “astonished and excited” to be taking over from Dr Rowan Williams, who stands down as Archbishop at the end of December. Acknowledging the many challenges faced by the Church, he said it will be a privilege to provide leadership "at a time of great spiritual hunger".(end quote) New archbishop's statement
Time to move on...it seems to me that Pope Ben did the right thing. It might be a useful thing if the cardinals now elect a man in his early 60s to take over and lead for the next 10-20 years (no longer).
The Pope is resigning! I guess he took that Notre Dame loss to Alabama a lot harder than people thought.
The Pope said he was stepping down at age 85 because he could no longer handle the job physically. To which Lance Armstrong said, "I've got some stuff that can help you with that."
The Pope said that at age 85 he cannot physically go on. Meanwhile, Hugh Hefner is going to be 87 and he just married a 26-year-old. So much for that celibate lifestyle!
I didn't hear that WW but if he ever read his Bible he'd know that "walls have ears" - something in the Bible about what you say in your (bed)chamber the birds will tell outside.
Beanie, I wondered about a terminal diagnosis too. But even so, he didn't have to resign, could just have died in office. RC would cover/disguise even prolonged cancer treatment (hence non-appearances).
Pope Benedict's resignation linked to gay conclave: report
A 300-page dossier compiled by three cardinals investigating the theft of Vatican documents was reportedly given to the Pope the day he decided to resign. The investigation is said to have uncovered a number of factions within the Vatican of gay men who have engaged in sexual activity with male prostitutes and at organized sex romps.
Don't think anyone's accusing the Old Boy of participating.
Wouldn't surprise me however if some within the Vatican did participate.
If they lived normal lives like normal men, ie, married to supportive women, well, perhaps things would be different. Instead of male priests having "housekeepers" who look after them as well as after the house.
I did hear something briefly that the RC church might consider removing the vow of celibacy. There have been calls for that. Here's one article:
It would be nice to retire with a golden handshake like he's got.
Not zackly a life of poverty...
What is the RC church doing with all that money and all those wonderfully rich things anyway? Living like Jesus lived? Living like Paul or Peter did?
There was a quiz in the article Excie linked to. For amusement, I did the quiz (I know nothing about the RC church). One of the questions was about an investigation carried out by J John - which investigation, according to the quizmasters, revealed that 4% of priests were found to have had sexual contact with a minor. 4%!!! What???!!! :mad2:/>
The Pope, the Vatican and the entire Roman operation and it's worldwide network are an insult to humanity. IMO.
Talk about Drama Queen Religion - middle aged Catholics gasping and clutching their rosary beads, can't pray fast enough for the ol' Pope and his apparently declining health.
Pope - see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. One of these days if justice is served your entire tax-shielded-golden-egg-multi-billion-dollar-club-for-men will be drug by it's dirty collar into the street and thrown to the gutter.
One has to ask if there has been a little politicking going on. If these allegations were from a long time ago, why have they now surfaced? On the eve of the Pope's resignation, a new Pope's election, and the resignation of this very cardinal due so very soon. Someone is cleaning house! Someone is getting rid of those who would not vote for a particular candidate as Pope.
I suspect there may be more to come - on both stories.
OS, I take it you're not a big RC fan. :rolleyes:/>
One has to ask if there has been a little politicking going on. If these allegations were from a long time ago, why have they now surfaced? On the eve of the Pope's resignation, a new Pope's election, and the resignation of this very cardinal due so very soon. Someone is cleaning house! Someone is getting rid of those who would not vote for a particular candidate as Pope.
I suspect there may be more to come - on both stories.
OS, I take it you're not a big RC fan. />
Moi? Raised on the stuff. I sweat Catholic Kool Aid for 10 years of parochial education. It was a tempestuous relationship at best.
It did give me a view into the diversity of the religious orders populace. I never heard a thing about the perv priest stuff until I was in high school and middle of the first year there were a couple of guys who'd entered seminary immediately after graduating elementary level and then quit within a year and showed up. They talked about there being "queer" priests and how weird they were. I didn't ask a lot of questions, I was just glad they'd been able to drop out - some families pressure their kids to stay in. So that was about 1964. Law suits have come out of that seminary years later. But - nothing, not one from the elementary school I attended. I got to know those priests pretty well and although they were goobers of the highest degree there's no way I believe they would have been involved or tolerated such things. One in particular would have gone medieval on anything like that, I'm sure. So they weren't and aren't all bad.
But the Pope? the Vatican old guard? Bishops, Cardinals? Generations of swine replicating over and over. RC theology makes Scientology look reasonable. /> and those guys are the head pricks in the dik parade.
Just listening to something on the 10pm news about the cardinal's resignation.
Oh the backpedalling! Oh the way they're saying some of the other cardinals may have made mistakes in the past!! But far in the past, and who hasn't made mistakes ... ^_^/> and other such rationalizations.
Why raise such things now though and how many others will get wiped out by historical past suddenly emerging?
Do we expect a squeaky-clean new Pope, or the muckiest one who has something on everyone else?
Meantime, I would like to offer the outgoing Pope a special night's accommodation...in Julian House, a hostel for homeless people. Or perhaps he would like to offer some homeless Italian people, males of course, accommodation in the new home that is being prepared for him? Now that - I would respect.
It's time the members took back their church and ousted the bloated papist tics in Rome.
Given that the RC's revere Mary as the Mother of God and that they call it the "Mother Church" - really, the entire rejection of female clergy in the church is bizarre, to say the least. There's more Lady's of this and Mother's of that in the RC church than - well at least as many as in any decent mythology.
It's really kind of funny and indicative of the dysfunctional world of their belief that a church is on the one hand so overwhelmingly male, and single male and at the same time has such a huge preoccupation with one woman, one completely unattainable in any real, personal way. No wonder they have so many problems.
Time for a Popess? It would actually seem like the right direction for them to go when you think about it. Why doesn't the Mother Church have a Good Mother to rule it? Food for thought....
This hit me last week in the midst of this story hitting the news - seriously. RC theology includes Mary as an active partner and participant in God's plan of redemption. Mary is their Mediatrix and although it's not fully baked into the doctrine, Mary's role as the active intercessor of God's grace - God, Christ, grace delivered through Mary - is debated and I would say has a place of general but vague acceptance amongst many Catholics.
I recited 1000's of times the Big 3 - The Our Father, the Hail Mary and the Apostle's Creed. The "Hail Mary" is a cornerstone of Catholic prayer life and her presence a part of much of the faith's meditative posture.
Catholics would defend it as a good thing, not a bad one and not as destructive. Rather, as an important and vital recognition of God's eternal purposes.
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
We used to pass around a big plastic statue of Mary, hollow, that contained a big set of Rosary Beads, that was used to recite these prayers. Catholics know the drill. You recite over 50 HM's. It's an act of "Marian" devotion with spiritiual designs yes but after a few dozen rosaries - and that's just a drop in the bucket for a Catholic - over time you pretty much get Mary burned in the brain. There's a lot of $ in rosaries, we used to pick a new one up every couple years, "holy cards", little statues - lots of Mary stuff. It was like a year round rock concert, there was always stuff to buy and take home with you.
Mary, the Mother of God, is forever burned in Catholic consciousness as a young woman, fair, pretty, the archetype of human grace and devotion. And Catholics approach Mary in a very practical way - get on the skids with God, God is the Angry Old Man of the Clouds, ready to judge and condemn. Mary? Mary's that part of spirituality that represents true faith, love, innocence, obedience and trust. To a Catholic, more so than Christ in my opinion - Christ is the image of defeat and suffering, dreadful horrible suffering, immortalized in image and icon forever on the cross - the sacrifice.
Mary is in a very real and practical way the expression of God's kindness, forgiveness and grace in the human form - much more than Jesus Christ who was the person of God. Mary's on the bus, just like one of us because she is. One of us.
This is how the Roman Catholic orders taught and represented the teaching when I was growing up. SO -
It hit me, like a ton o' lead - why does traditional RC management disconnect these doctrinal positions from the realities of Church leadership and governance? A female Pope would seem logical, natural, an extension of the heart and core of the faith. Sure, it was Peter they believe that got the Keys to the Church and they've flailed on that succession for 100's of years now - but really....maybe Peter/The Pope should be more of a Grounds Keeper kind of guy, capable and active, but the true hand of leadership be a succession from Mary....
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Human without the bean
Having grown up a roman catholic I was quite surprised to hear about pope benedict's retirement. I also heard that its more than 600 years since a pope has resigned or been deposed, a polite word for re leaved of duty. But, that is quite something to say for the catholic church.
I didn't think popes could quit actually. I thought they had to did in office.
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socks
Ex-RC, here.
I'm glad he retired, if his strength and health prevent him carrying out his duties. Sounds like he retires to the Vatican's equivalent of a villa, with his own staff and round the clock security.
Your donations at work to support the priestly "vow of poverty".
Because it's so highly unusual for a Pope to retire this side of 6 feet under a side of me figures there are larger forces at work like Catholic and global politics. I mean, you look at some of those guys, God love 'em but they couldn't stand up straight or speak without wheezing.
More power to him - he's got the golden ring to retirement heaven for a priest...as long as this isn't really the first step to some future "accident". (Just another Nutty Conspiracy)
/>
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WordWolf
With healthcare in the past 100 years having improved dramatically for those of us in First World countries,
it's no surprise we're getting lots of people living past 70.
With lots of people living past 70, it's no surprise lots of them are doing useful things past 70.
(Ronald Reagan was US President in his 70s, IIRC.)
So, the idea Popes can live long enough to warrant retirement should not be a shock,
and it doesn't have to have anything to do with him being a Pope.
What DID surprise me was that he assumed the office at what, 76? That's awfully late to BEGIN
a position of authority that's supposed to be "for life."
THAT I found peculiar. But him living long enough to have sufficient health problems to make
world travel impractical, that doesn't surprise me.
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Ron G.
Does he get a gold watch and a pension?
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socks
True, WW. Usually they go until they expire. I'm sure Catholics will sleep better knowing this one's final years are spent in relative comfort. For an Emperor.
I think he gets a gold bathtub, Ron.
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Twinky
I think, in the circumstances, it's a brave decision. He watched the previous Pope declining, didn't want that for himself, knew it was all too much. He's an old man. Realistic about his declining health. Recently (3 months ago) had an op to upgrade his pacemaker.
No doubt there will always be some controversy about whether he went voluntarily or was pushed. It is said his decision took everyone by surprise. I'm sure he had some confidants though with whom he must have discussed, researched protocols, etc.
The divine right of Popes...to die in office?
Interestingly, but completely off topic, the queen of the Netherlands has just, at the age of 75, abdicated in favour of her son. And she's not even "past it" mentally or physically. Just ready to let a younger generation deal with the problems of today. While still being around to offer the wisdom of age.
And the Archbishop of Canterbury, leader of the Anglican church, retired at the end of last year and a new man has been elected, to take over. (quote)In his opening statement at Lambeth Palace, Bishop Justin said he was “astonished and excited” to be taking over from Dr Rowan Williams, who stands down as Archbishop at the end of December. Acknowledging the many challenges faced by the Church, he said it will be a privilege to provide leadership "at a time of great spiritual hunger".(end quote) New archbishop's statement
Time to move on...it seems to me that Pope Ben did the right thing. It might be a useful thing if the cardinals now elect a man in his early 60s to take over and lead for the next 10-20 years (no longer).
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Human without the bean
It isn't outside the realm of logic that pope benedict is retiring due to an terminal diagnosis either.
It's not like the RC church is the most forthcoming when it comes to its own goings on.
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Ron G.
The Pope is resigning! I guess he took that Notre Dame loss to Alabama a lot harder than people thought.
The Pope said he was stepping down at age 85 because he could no longer handle the job physically. To which Lance Armstrong said, "I've got some stuff that can help you with that."
The Pope said that at age 85 he cannot physically go on. Meanwhile, Hugh Hefner is going to be 87 and he just married a 26-year-old. So much for that celibate lifestyle!
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WordWolf
I'm amused by how I hear the story broke.
I heard he addressed a few cardinals in Latin during a mass.
In the audience was a reporter who understood Latin who immediately
started notifying people. Naturally, their first response was they
must have misheard, but the Pope still had to deal with the story
getting out days before he meant it to.
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Twinky
I didn't hear that WW but if he ever read his Bible he'd know that "walls have ears" - something in the Bible about what you say in your (bed)chamber the birds will tell outside.
Beanie, I wondered about a terminal diagnosis too. But even so, he didn't have to resign, could just have died in office. RC would cover/disguise even prolonged cancer treatment (hence non-appearances).
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dabobbada
Ron G.
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excathedra
WHAT???? cross-dressing, sex rings, blackmail -- say it ain't so, joe
LOL
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Twinky
Don't think anyone's accusing the Old Boy of participating.
Wouldn't surprise me however if some within the Vatican did participate.
If they lived normal lives like normal men, ie, married to supportive women, well, perhaps things would be different. Instead of male priests having "housekeepers" who look after them as well as after the house.
I did hear something briefly that the RC church might consider removing the vow of celibacy. There have been calls for that. Here's one article:
Catholic priest celibacy to end?
But here's another view:
Or maybe, not to end?
Something for the next pope to wrestle with, maybe...or the pope after that...or the one after that...
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excathedra
forgive me twinky (i mean it) but i don't care if the old boy participated or not
i have had my fill of priests, bishops and the roman catholic church
if the vatican was blown up today, i would yawn
ps.
my aunts are nuns
there are too many priests in my family to list
blah blah blah
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excathedra
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0224/With-Pope-Benedict-s-retirement-the-where-is-clearer-than-the-how
is he a priest? has he taken the vow of poverty?
do you think he'll have time now to address my little altar boy brothers' sexual assaults?
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Twinky
It would be nice to retire with a golden handshake like he's got.
Not zackly a life of poverty...
What is the RC church doing with all that money and all those wonderfully rich things anyway? Living like Jesus lived? Living like Paul or Peter did?
There was a quiz in the article Excie linked to. For amusement, I did the quiz (I know nothing about the RC church). One of the questions was about an investigation carried out by J John - which investigation, according to the quizmasters, revealed that 4% of priests were found to have had sexual contact with a minor. 4%!!! What???!!! :mad2:/>
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socks
The Pope, the Vatican and the entire Roman operation and it's worldwide network are an insult to humanity. IMO.
Talk about Drama Queen Religion - middle aged Catholics gasping and clutching their rosary beads, can't pray fast enough for the ol' Pope and his apparently declining health.
Pope - see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. One of these days if justice is served your entire tax-shielded-golden-egg-multi-billion-dollar-club-for-men will be drug by it's dirty collar into the street and thrown to the gutter.
In the meantime, enjoy your retirement.
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waysider
Exiled from the world....what a strange concept.
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Twinky
And now, it's arrivederci Cardinal.
Britain's most senior cardinal has also resigned...one month before he was due to retire anyway. Over long-ago allegations of inappropriate conduct.
Cardinal O'Brien resigns
One has to ask if there has been a little politicking going on. If these allegations were from a long time ago, why have they now surfaced? On the eve of the Pope's resignation, a new Pope's election, and the resignation of this very cardinal due so very soon. Someone is cleaning house! Someone is getting rid of those who would not vote for a particular candidate as Pope.
I suspect there may be more to come - on both stories.
OS, I take it you're not a big RC fan. :rolleyes:/>
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socks
Moi? Raised on the stuff. I sweat Catholic Kool Aid for 10 years of parochial education. It was a tempestuous relationship at best.
It did give me a view into the diversity of the religious orders populace. I never heard a thing about the perv priest stuff until I was in high school and middle of the first year there were a couple of guys who'd entered seminary immediately after graduating elementary level and then quit within a year and showed up. They talked about there being "queer" priests and how weird they were. I didn't ask a lot of questions, I was just glad they'd been able to drop out - some families pressure their kids to stay in. So that was about 1964. Law suits have come out of that seminary years later. But - nothing, not one from the elementary school I attended. I got to know those priests pretty well and although they were goobers of the highest degree there's no way I believe they would have been involved or tolerated such things. One in particular would have gone medieval on anything like that, I'm sure. So they weren't and aren't all bad.
But the Pope? the Vatican old guard? Bishops, Cardinals? Generations of swine replicating over and over. RC theology makes Scientology look reasonable.
/> and those guys are the head pricks in the dik parade.
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Twinky
Just listening to something on the 10pm news about the cardinal's resignation.
Oh the backpedalling! Oh the way they're saying some of the other cardinals may have made mistakes in the past!! But far in the past, and who hasn't made mistakes ... ^_^/> and other such rationalizations.
Why raise such things now though and how many others will get wiped out by historical past suddenly emerging?
Do we expect a squeaky-clean new Pope, or the muckiest one who has something on everyone else?
Meantime, I would like to offer the outgoing Pope a special night's accommodation...in Julian House, a hostel for homeless people. Or perhaps he would like to offer some homeless Italian people, males of course, accommodation in the new home that is being prepared for him? Now that - I would respect.
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socks
It's time the members took back their church and ousted the bloated papist tics in Rome.
Given that the RC's revere Mary as the Mother of God and that they call it the "Mother Church" - really, the entire rejection of female clergy in the church is bizarre, to say the least. There's more Lady's of this and Mother's of that in the RC church than - well at least as many as in any decent mythology.
It's really kind of funny and indicative of the dysfunctional world of their belief that a church is on the one hand so overwhelmingly male, and single male and at the same time has such a huge preoccupation with one woman, one completely unattainable in any real, personal way. No wonder they have so many problems.
Time for a Popess? It would actually seem like the right direction for them to go when you think about it. Why doesn't the Mother Church have a Good Mother to rule it? Food for thought....
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Twinky
You crack me up, Socks!
Can't see that happening in this century, anyway.
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socks
Probably not - but hope springs eternal they say.
This hit me last week in the midst of this story hitting the news - seriously. RC theology includes Mary as an active partner and participant in God's plan of redemption. Mary is their Mediatrix and although it's not fully baked into the doctrine, Mary's role as the active intercessor of God's grace - God, Christ, grace delivered through Mary - is debated and I would say has a place of general but vague acceptance amongst many Catholics.
I recited 1000's of times the Big 3 - The Our Father, the Hail Mary and the Apostle's Creed. The "Hail Mary" is a cornerstone of Catholic prayer life and her presence a part of much of the faith's meditative posture.
Catholics would defend it as a good thing, not a bad one and not as destructive. Rather, as an important and vital recognition of God's eternal purposes.
Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
We used to pass around a big plastic statue of Mary, hollow, that contained a big set of Rosary Beads, that was used to recite these prayers. Catholics know the drill. You recite over 50 HM's. It's an act of "Marian" devotion with spiritiual designs yes but after a few dozen rosaries - and that's just a drop in the bucket for a Catholic - over time you pretty much get Mary burned in the brain. There's a lot of $ in rosaries, we used to pick a new one up every couple years, "holy cards", little statues - lots of Mary stuff. It was like a year round rock concert, there was always stuff to buy and take home with you.
Mary, the Mother of God, is forever burned in Catholic consciousness as a young woman, fair, pretty, the archetype of human grace and devotion. And Catholics approach Mary in a very practical way - get on the skids with God, God is the Angry Old Man of the Clouds, ready to judge and condemn. Mary? Mary's that part of spirituality that represents true faith, love, innocence, obedience and trust. To a Catholic, more so than Christ in my opinion - Christ is the image of defeat and suffering, dreadful horrible suffering, immortalized in image and icon forever on the cross - the sacrifice.
Mary is in a very real and practical way the expression of God's kindness, forgiveness and grace in the human form - much more than Jesus Christ who was the person of God. Mary's on the bus, just like one of us because she is. One of us.
This is how the Roman Catholic orders taught and represented the teaching when I was growing up. SO -
It hit me, like a ton o' lead - why does traditional RC management disconnect these doctrinal positions from the realities of Church leadership and governance? A female Pope would seem logical, natural, an extension of the heart and core of the faith. Sure, it was Peter they believe that got the Keys to the Church and they've flailed on that succession for 100's of years now - but really....maybe Peter/The Pope should be more of a Grounds Keeper kind of guy, capable and active, but the true hand of leadership be a succession from Mary....
?
Hail Mary!
Yeah, I know.
/>
/>
/>
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