"Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh?"
This starts to get into what waysider opened up for discussion - and it's a discussion, right? One mans' conspiracy theory is anothers' morning news.
Of those 3 Paul could be said to have "written" the "most" - of the N. T. as that's primarily a collection of his letters, "epistles" of his teaching.
Moses - the bible itself states that Moses "wrote" scripture, the law and is considered the writer of the 5 books comprising the "Torah"....a significant contribution but he did not write "the most" of scripture - compared to anyone else, and anyone else like who....? No, that's not correct, and reads like a hoot'n'holler line from a teaching.
David - is thought to have written or be the originator of some of Psalms.
Nutty Theory #213: That Moses, David and Paul wrote the most scripture in the Bible. No. Split hairs - Collectively? Who cares and who knows?
The argument as stated is too weak to support the idea of supporting or trashing "moral superiority". But it reveals a point I think - that the issue isn't really morality or it's recognition with you johniam, the issue is passing judgment, in this age of grace.
We have to honor the judgments of God and the guidance of Jesus Christ - the life of Jesus says "see me, see the Father" - Jesus clearly did not allow His followers wiggle room, although he clearly forgave, taught, supported and "loved" His followers in the same way He taught.
The issues with VPW were that he segmented himself from everyone else, separated his work from all others and allowed virtually no management or control over what he did or didn't choose to do, except for those he choose to recognize.....for some that could be a recipe for success - for him it turned into kind of a train wreck. It just did - his entire life's work and what he hoped to be a great movement of God's Word and outreach thereof became a ramshackle organization fighting amongst itself, and he sowed the seeds for that by building it the way he did. In fact it could be said that it wouldn't or couldn't have happened any other way than it did, looking back. This is more than saying today "well, at least we still have The Word he taught!".......I kind of hock up a lung when I hear people quote that line as it's too self serving to warrant consideration. We all must move on though and we have, like it or not the day is a new one.
But I appreciate the patience of all to allow this sideline...
Nuttiness - I think it may be less a quality of anything Way related and more just the way people are that embrace a dualistic view of life - where man sees one thing and believes that unseen forces and realities are at play, the "spiritual" and the "physical". Look at how the entire topic of "the Devil" has taken on such big hairy weird legs over the years.
I see more of a hybrid duality - of two things being one, and thatsa storee for another a pizza!
Yeah, for certain, ex-wayfers lay no claim of exclusivity on this stuff. People from all walks of life and diverse backgrounds are drawn to it, like flies are drawn to that stuff that draws flies. It just seems to me though, that ex-wayfers seem to be especially vulnerable. That's just my perception. No hard core scientific study or any such thing. Could it be because we were conditioned to think of everything as having a "spiritual meaning", with spirits waiting to snap you up if you lost your focus? I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything, just wondering if others have had similar observations.
I would say yes, there are strains of that visible in society.
In the Way if I believed that Satan was pushing cue balls around on the table of life, I'd be trying to identify and understand who, what, where, and when. The why would be filtered through theology.
I know this isn't a political discussion but politics is a fertile ground for this kind of thinking in that category, way's...... I was somewhat surprised that a lot of people got behind Sarah Palin, fr'instance. Yet, she never said...anything...that was insightful, illuminating or even in many cases knowledgeable. No matter whether I agreed with her or her politics at all, or was of the same mindset or opinion. (I wanted to support her at first but was just unable as time went on).....She was a spokesperson of sorts, appointed by her party and given opportunity to present...which was fine. Well meaning but not meeting my expectations for the White House positions. Not to say that McCain, or Clinton, Bush, Obama, Romney or most of the more recent candidates for those jobs were either. Yet, and this was kind of amazing to me - people often praised someone like Palin because she was "better than" the opposing partys candidates who they thought were terrible....so - the New Greatness was for someone to be better than someone else, who was....terrible. Not much going on there, in my opinion.
Guns - now, that's another one. Again - no fight intended here - but for illustration sake - so many Christians have cooked up a Jesus-centered platform for gun ownership and the ability to act both defensively and offensively....I've read ex Wayfers quoting Jesus about the deal with "buy a sword" instructions to His disciples, yet within a day we see Him tell them to put them down and in fact does not act offensively nor encourage His disciples to do so either. So, if nothing else, when push came to shove they may have been ready but were not ever actually instructed by Jesus to act.
But - yeah, there's a big push amongst many ex Wayfers to have an arsenal, and some do have that feeling that's what Jesus would want....weird. To your point, a "spiritual" battle as described in Ephesians is not going to be won with guns, that's kind of the ultimate knife at a gun fight scenario. So if I were a spiritual-view conspiracy-nutter, I'd be looking elsewhere for arms.
Me-I don't think God or Jesus care if we want to shoot each other to hell and back, they're going to let us do it. For now. I just would not drag them into it when we clearly are in an age when neither the Old Testament perspective nor the Coming Age reality is in place. We have both capacity and facility to do good and live right - or not. We may like to preach 'n' holler 'bout Jesus comin' back with a grenade launcher and He's gonna settle scores and take names - fine. That being the case then...in the meantime....can we maybe just kind of not make it worse?
That's my take anyway - but sure, I think it requires a lot of care to not go off on every little fear and paranoia we have, nor on every great success and joy. Celebrate the good, learn from everything we can and live a peaceful life as much as I can. Outside of my own insulation-shielded subterranean communications center where I keep 5 years supply of food, water and Pampers, I don't worry 'bout nuttin'.
Why do ex-Way people seem to be so receptive to whatever conspiracy theory and bad science happens to be in vogue? Politics, medicine, scientific discoveries, medical news, health news, legislation....you name it. Was there something in our indoctrination that preconditioned us to ignore logic and jump on the latest bandwagon? O.K.....I'm not interested in debating any one particular issue, just curious about the basic concept in general.
Waysider, I did not intend to derail the thread. In my mind, being receptive to all that stuff suggested gullibility. Are you really "curious" or did you just not give me a copy of the script? I maintain that credibility being in place is what enabled what you call "nuttiness". I'm not the final word on this or anything else. I made the remark about attacking VPs credibility as a supporting point. In twi we gave VP as much credibility as possible. Here, most people give him as little credibility as possible. To me, this means that credibility is a major factor. Look at how much mileage Obama's gotten because all these idiots assign total credibility to him. VP never tanked the economy. He never mandated government health care and its demons. VP would have ripped his other eye out if he had lived to see this.
Think what you will, but pfal makes as much sense to me now as it ever did. I think he represented God quite well.
I'm not sure if it's gullibility or skepticism or a combination. There's quite a difference. Both require a healthy dose of inquisition. That inquisition seems to be what is lacking. People seem to want to accept the latest theory on Obama or health care or medical quackery or gun control statistics or whatever as if what they're being told is the gospel truth. There is no excuse for that, not today, not with so much information at our fingertips. Instead, people apparently want someone else to spoon feed the answers to them. If you want to stay healthy, it's in your interest to know what's in that spoon. Blindly accepting it, without inquisition, it is gullibility. Rejecting it, in light of conflicting validation, is skepticism. A lot of the issues that are at the forefront of current controversy are not 'yes or no', 'black or white', 'either /or' type issues. Maybe that's where the problem lies. People want to accept whatever set of statistics or facts support their belief whether or not the statistics and facts are leading to a valid conclusion. The credibility of the source is always subject to scrutiny. That's how propaganda works. And, propaganda is really what is driving this current bandwagon trend.
Years ago, during times of war, airplanes would drop leaflets of propaganda for people to "consume". Resources for validating the information in them was limited at best. Today, we find ourselves in a different set of circumstances. There is too much information. We need to sort through it with a critical eye toward accuracy and adjust our opinions if warranted. That's what critical thinking is all about. How does that play out with one's background and biases? I don't know. That's what this thread is about.
There may be too much info, but not enough time. Time sensitivity is real. If I don't reach any conclusion until I've totally processed the info, then I'll NEVER reach a conclusion. I don't really believe that Rush and his ilk are saying the gospel truth about Obama, but I trust that side of the media more than I trust the other side. Gotta start somewhere.
So, then, this raises the question, "What is it that makes you trust one source over the other?".
Incidentally, I don't want this to become a political discussion but here are some sites that might help you sort out facts and statistics. They, of course, aren't gospel either but do give a good starting point.
Think what you will, but pfal makes as much sense to me now as it ever did. I think he represented God quite well.
He certainly talked a good game, but lived quite the opposite. Think that would make him a hypocrite, and a failed representative of The Most High. Good words and fair speeches.
I'm not trying to resurrect a VP debate but I honestly don't see how anyone, who is aware of the sordid and perverse lifestyle of Wierwille (one he carefully hid from the unsuspecting general public) can honestly say he was a Christian leader, whose lifestyle was worthy of emulation. Does that mean it's acceptable to seek out female followers (by the dozens), administer date rape drugs and then sexually molest them? Then, he deliberately recruited other upper leadership to share in his lifestyle. Really? That's a worthy example to be followed? That's what it means to represent God? It baffles me how anyone can rationalize that by saying they learned some cool stuff in a class that has long since been proven to be the product of deliberate plagiarism.
Johniam genuinely feels that PFAL helped his life. And as such, PFAL was valid and worthwhile. To him.
And in fact to many of us, because it showed us things that other church and religious organizations did not.
That's in no small measure because more godly men than VPW first worked out the material in PFAL, that VPW subsequently plagiarized.
It's by the grace of God that all of us profited to some degree from PFAL - Johniam included.
But by the further grace of God that our eyes were opened to the legalism and hypocritical behavior practiced by VPW and others in leadership.
And, for some of us, by yet further grace, our eyes were opened to an understanding of what things, what practices, God protected us from while we were subject to TWI.
While ever eyes are focused on individuals in leadership, leadership will be found to fail. Our eyes are to be focused on a much better model - that of Jesus Christ.
Then we can be forgiving of real, perceived or imagined failures on the part of leadership...
...unless, of course, leadership seeks to insert itself into the place rightfully occupied by Jesus Christ. ("You shall be like God!" or "You shall be like JC!")
...unless, of course, leadership seeks to insert itself into the place rightfully occupied by Jesus Christ. ("You shall be like God!" or "You shall be like JC!")
Now that is nutty!
Would that include such things as "Christ's eyes behind your eyes, Christ's ears behind your ears, etc....as taught in the Advanced Class?
Doh! It just dawned on me that this is, in essence, not much different that the channelling that mediums claim to do. Except, this variety involves Jesus Christ instead of dear old Aunt Agnes.
quote: Calling things like they are is not moral superiority.
Yeah, but isolating bad things somebody did as though the good things don't exist IS moral superiority.
We are not isolating bad things VP did as though good things didn't exist. We are presenting both sides of the story. VP only presented the good side, and lied and covered up the bad side, including firing people who taught it was wrong. Remember the adultery paper? Remember John Schoenheit sharing his story about just wanting the Word to get out and influence people, then finding himself fired, excommunicated, and slandered?
You have a good feeling about VP because the splinter group you attend, while not being under TWI's authority, like so many other splinter groups base their existence on "the Word VP taught". Thus you and your group, like TWI excuse grievous sin not excused by God, sweep it under the carpet, and live in a rose colored delusional world where all you need are these Bible sharings that you perceive to be originally taught by VP. In reality they were not, as it is very clearly laid out in this site how much of his teachings were plagiarized from other ministers. Groups even excuse that, saying "what does it matter as long as the Word is taught". It matters. It matters to God. It matters to Christians. It matters to communities.
All we are doing is holding up the standard of what the Bible says leadership should be in our day and time. "husband of one wife" is pretty clear as a leadership standard. Serial adultery would be violating God's Word as a standard for leadership. Having an unwritten doctrine of serial adultery for the leaders in a ministry is sin. So apparently you have a problem with the Bible and its "moral superiority".
You see Christianity is based upon knowing the truth and the truth setting you free. If a man's words prove that he does not know the difference between truth and lie, then it is impossible for him to come to the truth, as the words of truth won't be recognized. It's not the truth's fault, it's the man's fault for conditioning his conscience to lies, and developing a conscience seared with a hot iron.
There are higher standards for leaders. That's why Jesus taught it was better to have a millstone hung around your neck and you be drowned than as a leader using your spiritual authority to hurt those lesser than you.
To excuse Wierwille's lifestyle and actions for his "good words and fair speeches" is allowing yourself to stay deceived. It's up to you. So either VP was the next best thing to Jesus Christ on earth, except all these many people got together to lie about him, or he really was a lying, plagiarist who used the ministry to seduce young ladies onto his motor coach. And of course taught Craig how to do the same thing. I could continue.
Those who claim to represent God are to live at a very high standard. Wierwille did not do this. He was a greedy, drunken, hypocrite who served his own lusts at the expense of others and left a lot of shattered lives in his wake. He will answer for that one day.
Why do ex-Way people seem to be so receptive to whatever conspiracy theory and bad science happens to be in vogue? Politics, medicine, scientific discoveries, medical news, health news, legislation....you name it. Was there something in our indoctrination that preconditioned us to ignore logic and jump on the latest bandwagon? O.K.....I'm not interested in debating any one particular issue, just curious about the basic concept in general.
I guess that most of the folks that I knew that became involved with twi were young people that had been vulnerable for a variety of reasons, broken family, abuse, drugs, etc. twi promised answers to those who had little guidance or experience. When we left, though older we were still vulnerable, still lacking reliable guidance. I feel like I had to do my 'growing up' in my forties, learning to test all things, that's not everything is as it seems, etc....things most folks learn in their twenties ....or younger if they have the guidance and wisdom of someone older with more experience in life.
I see the difference in my now adult children, verses their dad and I who had to learn everything on our own, the hard way.
I've been told from numerous and separate sources, including his own granddaughter. I've also read Losing the Way, and The Cult That Snapped. If two or three witnesses is all that's required biblically, I would say Wierwille is facing a host of witnesses.
I guess that most of the folks that I knew that became involved with twi were young people that had been vulnerable for a variety of reasons, broken family, abuse, drugs, etc. twi promised answers to those who had little guidance or experience. When we left, though older we were still vulnerable, still lacking reliable guidance. I feel like I had to do my 'growing up' in my forties, learning to test all things, that's not everything is as it seems, etc....things most folks learn in their twenties ....or younger if they have the guidance and wisdom of someone older with more experience in life.
Wow - amazing perspective. In this you can see that TWI is a lot like doing drugs. The end result is finding emotional growth stunted into your middle-aged years.
I've been told from numerous and separate sources, including his own granddaughter. I've also read Losing the Way, and The Cult That Snapped. If two or three witnesses is all that's required biblically, I would say Wierwille is facing a host of witnesses.
Infallible logic.
Plus, all the sin is very well hidden. I was in leadership for years and the only exposure I had to the adultery stuff was Craig being removed. Then the Corps got confronted by Rosalie for knowing about that stuff but not speaking up. But I didn't know about it before.
The strength and power of a counterfiet is in how close it is set to resemble the truth.
vp used to say something similiar to that.
The counterfiet is either hidden under the truth or is made to appear legitimate by being set next to truth.
But as scripture put it, when the truth is mixed with a lie, it is made into the lie.
As Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels used to say, if you say the big lie long enough and loud enough, people will begin to believe it.
vp plagerized and blended the works of other great men and mixed them in with his self serving greeds and lusts. He used the grace of god and the freedom in christ as excuse to play out his lusts. The Apostle Paul warned against this time and again. What we have seen since the '80's shows the results of his works.
When vp died, he believed he had the right to do what he did because of the grace of god and freedom in christ. He knew his hidden realm was wrong, but forgiveness was his get out of jail for free card, and he used it to the max.
What he chose to ignore was that using good to do evil brings severe consequences and his legacy has reaped that wind.
quote: You have a good feeling about VP because the splinter group you attend, while not being under TWI's authority, like so many other splinter groups base their existence on "the Word VP taught". Thus you and your group, like TWI excuse grievous sin not excused by God, sweep it under the carpet, and live in a rose colored delusional world where all you need are these Bible sharings that you perceive to be originally taught by VP. In reality they were not, as it is very clearly laid out in this site how much of his teachings were plagiarized from other ministers. Groups even excuse that, saying "what does it matter as long as the Word is taught". It matters. It matters to God. It matters to Christians. It matters to communities.
Not true. You have some rigid stereotypes to unload.
VP is hardly ever mentioned in teachings. Chris Geer has a foundational and an intermediate class. His foundational class is 22 hours long compared to VPs 34. Just out of curiosity, how long is LCMs WAP foundational class?
VP is dead. So are his sins. His love, hate, and envy are perished. You know the verse. If we look through rose colored glasses it's about our own sins. I've been with this group 8 years now and I've been in meetings, formal and informal, in which there were discussions about twi way back in the 70s. None of those guys talk about cheating on their wives. They don't even say derogatory things about them as women. We're just people who assemble in the sight of God to worship Him, pray to him, and receive his blessings. Just like the best of times in twi.
Do we feel we owe VP a debt of gratitude? Certainly. His twi had 3 main points of doctrine that separated twi from mainstream Christianity: 1) JC is not God, 2) the dead are dead, and 3) SIT is worshipping God in spirit and truth. Yes, we still believe all that. As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't. It's God's word or it isn't. Obsessing over who VP may have "borrowed" from is straining at a gnat and swallowing at a camel IMO. "It matters to Christians"??? So you're saying that spinoffs aren't Christians? That's your opinion. We think the communities we have fellowship in are blessed. So there. Call it whatever you wish.
Not true. You have some rigid stereotypes to unload.
.....
We think the communities we have fellowship in are blessed. So there. Call it whatever you wish.
So, in other words, as long as you guys feel good about what you are doing, you are willing to ignore Wierwille's evils and build new work on a corrupt foundation. Have at it.
"As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't."
Really??
God doesn't care about stealing and deception?
I must have missed that lesson in Sunday School.
"It's God's word or it isn't."
So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas, I would have to conclude 'it isn't'.
quote: You have a good feeling about VP because the splinter group you attend, while not being under TWI's authority, like so many other splinter groups base their existence on "the Word VP taught". Thus you and your group, like TWI excuse grievous sin not excused by God, sweep it under the carpet, and live in a rose colored delusional world where all you need are these Bible sharings that you perceive to be originally taught by VP. In reality they were not, as it is very clearly laid out in this site how much of his teachings were plagiarized from other ministers. Groups even excuse that, saying "what does it matter as long as the Word is taught". It matters. It matters to God. It matters to Christians. It matters to communities.
Not true. You have some rigid stereotypes to unload.
VP is hardly ever mentioned in teachings.
[i included your incorrectly-formatted quote because it's clear, when both are included,
you refuted something that was never posted.
It wasn't said that vpw was MENTIONED in teachings.
You're using his FRAMEWORK entirely whether or not you're mentioning him each night.
If you claim you're not crediting him silently while using his framework entirely,
you might convince yourself but you won't convince us.
You-and everyone there who learned in twi- have your group based on the construct
you'd call "the Word VP taught." (I'd call it something less laudatory.)
Those who arrived later, I would bet my life they've heard LOTS of claims about
vpw from those who were earlier. It doesn't have to be right during a teaching or
a sermon, it can be before or after during socializing, or even some other day
when there's no session.]
Chris Geer has a foundational and an intermediate class. His foundational class is 22 hours long compared to VPs 34. Just out of curiosity, how long is LCMs WAP foundational class?
VP is dead. So are his sins. His love, hate, and envy are perished. You know the verse. If we look through rose colored glasses it's about our own sins.
[it's about the damage vpw wrought, the lives destroyed, the minds damaged.
And the systematizing of error he set up, which is still harming people in ways large and small.
Some of them aren't even aware of the damage. Poor V2P2 has been set up so badly it will be
DECADES before he can get free-if it ever happens during his lifetime.
The harm people do can live on for years, decades, even centuries after their deaths.]
I've been with this group 8 years now and I've been in meetings, formal and informal, in which there were discussions about twi way back in the 70s. None of those guys talk about cheating on their wives. They don't even say derogatory things about them as women. We're just people who assemble in the sight of God to worship Him, pray to him, and receive his blessings. Just like the best of times in twi.
[A lot of people who were never in the cadre (however one would term it) never were privy to the "lockbox"
nor were told to cheat on wives. I was never told it-although many WERE told it.
It's entirely possible you're correct that this is all nice talk going on.
Then again,
I've seen your posts here, and what you consider acceptable speech.
At times, you seem unaware a line was crossed.
It's entirely possible that what you think was just fine contained something
other Christians might find objectionable- and by that I mean CONDUCT, not
"how many were crucified" or the like. A more objective reporter of what
goes on at your meetings would be more convincing.]
Do we feel we owe VP a debt of gratitude? Certainly. His twi had 3 main points of doctrine that separated twi from mainstream Christianity: 1) JC is not God, 2) the dead are dead, and 3) SIT is worshipping God in spirit and truth. Yes, we still believe all that.
[All those were taught by Christians before vpw came along. They may be minority opinions,
but there's actually a lot of minority positions in Christianity.
Sir Isaac Newton, Bible scholar, was never threatened with violence
for his position against the Trinity a few centuries ago.
I mentioned that position to another Christian, and his sole comment was
"the original historical position of Christians." He was just a certain
disciple, and it was old news to him, and hardly shocking.
The "dead are dead" thing is called "soul sleep" because enough people
believe in it that it needs a term so people know what you're talking about.
Lots of Christians believe that.
As for SIT, you're ignoring that even vpw said it was common enough that
the event he attended (with the imaginary snowstorm) had lots of people
who SIT'd and who BEGAN SIT'ing at that meeting. In fact, it was so expected
that he'd become one, that (if he didn't invent that part) he was able to
INTENTIONALLY DECEIVE them and PRETEND he was SIT'ing and just spoke some
Greek. Both Leonard and Stiles were teaching this stuff all over the place
before vpw stumbled across them both.
If you weren't hiding from that, vpw's supposed "accomplishment" wouldn't
sound nearly as impressive. He hid the names of others who did all the work
from nearly everyone, along with their accomplishments. The goal was to get
all the credit and separate us from other Christians.
It's still working-some people STILL give him all the credit, and STILL
separate themselves from other Christians.
I give him all the credit he warrants for that.
He may be dead, but his legacy still affects people who should be warned.
Of course, as God says, once the alarm is sounded, it's up to the people
to heed it or it's on them.]
As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't. It's God's word or it isn't. Obsessing over who VP may have "borrowed" from is straining at a gnat and swallowing at a camel IMO. "It matters to Christians"??? So you're saying that spinoffs aren't Christians? That's your opinion. We think the communities we have fellowship in are blessed. So there. Call it whatever you wish.
[God care deeply about people lying to his people, about people causing his people to stumble,
about those who led his people to sin, about those who abuse the office of religious leader.
That's a repetitive lesson all over the Bible.
"It's God's Word or it isn't." You're completely missing the point. Whether any one
statement of vpw is true or a lie is independent of whether or not it was plagiarized.
We've said that for more than 10 years now. "Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth." (Raf.)
The actual issues are ones of CHARACTER. Someone goes out to deceive the brethren, then rape
some of them, take their money for his vices, and set up a criminal cartel to cover his tracks.
His plagiarism was his LURE and his COVER. People thought they were getting "God's Word" when
they were being set up for being used.
"If you're really the Son of God, jump off this roof. It is written, after all, that
He will send His angels to protect you so you don't even bang your foot against a stone."
Ever hear that evil ones can quote actual Scripture and use it for evil ends, to manipulate
others and claim it's God's Will? It's been going on for millenia. It happened to us,
and you think that's a non-issue. Well, I'm glad I don't have to answer for it.
I was young and naive once.
As to whether or not you're Christians, I'd have to consider that Jesus' sheep hear his
voice, and that people of God actually care about things the way God does- approving
what He approves of, and disapproving of what he DISapproves of. Me, I'm not prepared
to prop up the reputation of someone who will face consequences severe enough that
they'd be better off with cement galoshes and dropped in the ocean.]
===============================================
[Why were some twi'ers, why are some extwi'ers attracted to nutty things?
I think there's the appeal of SIMPLE ANSWERS.
Someone hands over something simple and live is black-and-white and can
fit on a bumper sticker. I can see the appeal of that.
I can also see the appeal of embezzlement, but I'm not signing up for
either one.
I also think that people feel special if they think there's some secret
they feel privy too. "You shall be like God, knowing good and evil"
was tempting, in part, because of "knowing good and evil like God"
sounded like some special knowledge when what was offered was
actually nothing. Adam & Eve couldn't be offered to know good
any better, so what was offered was actually knowledge of evil.
But it was framed as "SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE."
People are often vulnerable to it.
It was tempting to some people to think that WE, as twi people,
were SPECIAL in the Earth, UNIQUE among Christians, possessing
the SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE and obviously superior to other Christians
who were unworthy to be our peers. That arrogance was instilled
into twi from the beginning and from its head. It took a lot of
us years to rid ourselves of it. Some of us still wrestle with
some of it. Some of us can't even begin to root it out.]
"As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't."
Really??
God doesn't care about stealing and deception?
I must have missed that lesson in Sunday School.
"It's God's word or it isn't."
So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas, I would have to conclude 'it isn't'.
So, in other words, as long as you guys feel good about what you are doing, you are willing to ignore Wierwille's evils and build new work on a corrupt foundation. Have at it.
[Pretty much.
And they'd appreciate it if you stopped mentioning that because it's easier to
ignore something when someone's not warning people about it every month.]
Romans 14:4a - Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?
I guess you guys never got that memo.
quote: So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas,
Where has Jesus Christ is not God been "shown" to be inaccurate? How about the dead being dead? How about SIT? Talk about "plagiarising". Anything about those subjects that has been "shown" on GSC had been shown before by "legitimate" Christians who called us a cult.
Romans 14:4a - Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?
I guess you guys never got that memo.
[i noticed you've ripped the verse out of its CONTEXT.
What it's saying is nothing like what you're CLAIMING it's saying.
The chapter is SPECIFIC about addressing a SPECIFIC problem in the Roman church-
that of whether or not foods offered to idols should be eaten by Christians.]
Romans 14:1-19
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
=========================
[To anyone seeking to learn what the passage is saying, it's clear-
it's addressing a complicated, specific issue, and whether a Christian should judge
another Christian based on whether he will or won't eat food offered to idols.
Even there, the general guidelines are clear and obvious-
don't use your freedom in Christ to harm your brethren.
Do the things which edify your brethren.
DON'T PUT A STUMBLINGBLOCK BEFORE YOUR BRETHREN.
As for whether or not Christians are supposed to exercise judgement,
if one stops pulling one verse out of context, and studies THE ENTIRE BIBLE
rather than just look for what appears to agree with one's theology,
the main thrust of Scripture says the opposite of what you are saying it is,
even-perhaps especially- to the Christian.
II Timothy 4:14-15
14. Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
I Corinthians 5:1-13
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
=======================
We are EXPECTED to "judge them that are within."
We have a SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION. Ïf any man that is called a brother (in Christ) is:
a fornicator OR
covetous OR
an idolator OR
a railer OR
a drunkard OR
and extortioner,
we don't fellowship with him, we don't eat with him. We are to JUDGE him and send him AWAY as a result.
So, if a man is habitually unfaithful in his marriage OR greedy and grasping, OR a worshipper of an idol
or of self rather than God, OR a loud, rude yeller OR an abuser of alcohol OR gets his way by
threatening others
(I meant HABITUAL when I said HABITUAL because it doesn't mean a man who makes ONE scene or takes
an occasional drink or whatever),
we are to judge him and send him away.
Obviously, then, if he is MANY of those or MOST of those (or even ALL), then we are supposed to
judge him and send him away.
I Corinthians 6:1-6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
Paul was OFFENDED that Christians REFUSED TO JUDGE and rather made things
between Christians to be matters of the secular law.
We are EXPECTED and REQUIRED to judge- and judge RIGHTLY.
We are expected to handle things BEFORE they are sent to the courts,
and that's seen as a failure of one or more parties if it comes to that.
I can keep going, but the point is clear.
Anyone who wants to "do God's Word" has more than enough to make it clear what that is in this instance.
Those who would rather do their own will won't heed it if 1/2 the Bible said to do the opposite.
quote: So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas,
Where has Jesus Christ is not God been "shown" to be inaccurate? How about the dead being dead? How about SIT? Talk about "plagiarising". Anything about those subjects that has been "shown" on GSC had been shown before by "legitimate" Christians who called us a cult.
Same old Johniam. Someone addressed one thing, you refuted something else.
Nobody said that every utterance of vpw was disproven.
Nobody said the Trinity was proven, nobody said soul sleep was refuted.
But you invented a complaint that was easy to argue against, and knocked
down your strawman.
"As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't."
Really??
God doesn't care about stealing and deception?
I must have missed that lesson in Sunday School.
"It's God's word or it isn't."
So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas, I would have to conclude 'it isn't'.
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chockfull
Calling things like they are is not moral superiority. Adultery is sin. A continued practice and doctrine of adultery among a leadership group is sin. It is not moral superiority to state this. Loo
Kit Sober
From the Song of Soloman 6:11: "11I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley. .." Being from the Bay Area of California and a San Francisco Beatnik, I thought it nothing stra
Steve Lortz
Philippians 3:17-19 "17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. "18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even wee
socks
Old Skool, now we're getting nutty!
"Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh?"
This starts to get into what waysider opened up for discussion - and it's a discussion, right? One mans' conspiracy theory is anothers' morning news.
Of those 3 Paul could be said to have "written" the "most" - of the N. T. as that's primarily a collection of his letters, "epistles" of his teaching.
Moses - the bible itself states that Moses "wrote" scripture, the law and is considered the writer of the 5 books comprising the "Torah"....a significant contribution but he did not write "the most" of scripture - compared to anyone else, and anyone else like who....? No, that's not correct, and reads like a hoot'n'holler line from a teaching.
David - is thought to have written or be the originator of some of Psalms.
Nutty Theory #213: That Moses, David and Paul wrote the most scripture in the Bible. No. Split hairs - Collectively? Who cares and who knows?
The argument as stated is too weak to support the idea of supporting or trashing "moral superiority". But it reveals a point I think - that the issue isn't really morality or it's recognition with you johniam, the issue is passing judgment, in this age of grace.
We have to honor the judgments of God and the guidance of Jesus Christ - the life of Jesus says "see me, see the Father" - Jesus clearly did not allow His followers wiggle room, although he clearly forgave, taught, supported and "loved" His followers in the same way He taught.
The issues with VPW were that he segmented himself from everyone else, separated his work from all others and allowed virtually no management or control over what he did or didn't choose to do, except for those he choose to recognize.....for some that could be a recipe for success - for him it turned into kind of a train wreck. It just did - his entire life's work and what he hoped to be a great movement of God's Word and outreach thereof became a ramshackle organization fighting amongst itself, and he sowed the seeds for that by building it the way he did. In fact it could be said that it wouldn't or couldn't have happened any other way than it did, looking back. This is more than saying today "well, at least we still have The Word he taught!".......I kind of hock up a lung when I hear people quote that line as it's too self serving to warrant consideration. We all must move on though and we have, like it or not the day is a new one.
But I appreciate the patience of all to allow this sideline...
Nuttiness - I think it may be less a quality of anything Way related and more just the way people are that embrace a dualistic view of life - where man sees one thing and believes that unseen forces and realities are at play, the "spiritual" and the "physical". Look at how the entire topic of "the Devil" has taken on such big hairy weird legs over the years.
I see more of a hybrid duality - of two things being one, and thatsa storee for another a pizza!
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waysider
Yeah, for certain, ex-wayfers lay no claim of exclusivity on this stuff. People from all walks of life and diverse backgrounds are drawn to it, like flies are drawn to that stuff that draws flies. It just seems to me though, that ex-wayfers seem to be especially vulnerable. That's just my perception. No hard core scientific study or any such thing. Could it be because we were conditioned to think of everything as having a "spiritual meaning", with spirits waiting to snap you up if you lost your focus? I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything, just wondering if others have had similar observations.
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socks
I would say yes, there are strains of that visible in society.
In the Way if I believed that Satan was pushing cue balls around on the table of life, I'd be trying to identify and understand who, what, where, and when. The why would be filtered through theology.
I know this isn't a political discussion but politics is a fertile ground for this kind of thinking in that category, way's...... I was somewhat surprised that a lot of people got behind Sarah Palin, fr'instance. Yet, she never said...anything...that was insightful, illuminating or even in many cases knowledgeable. No matter whether I agreed with her or her politics at all, or was of the same mindset or opinion. (I wanted to support her at first but was just unable as time went on).....She was a spokesperson of sorts, appointed by her party and given opportunity to present...which was fine. Well meaning but not meeting my expectations for the White House positions. Not to say that McCain, or Clinton, Bush, Obama, Romney or most of the more recent candidates for those jobs were either. Yet, and this was kind of amazing to me - people often praised someone like Palin because she was "better than" the opposing partys candidates who they thought were terrible....so - the New Greatness was for someone to be better than someone else, who was....terrible. Not much going on there, in my opinion.
Guns - now, that's another one. Again - no fight intended here - but for illustration sake - so many Christians have cooked up a Jesus-centered platform for gun ownership and the ability to act both defensively and offensively....I've read ex Wayfers quoting Jesus about the deal with "buy a sword" instructions to His disciples, yet within a day we see Him tell them to put them down and in fact does not act offensively nor encourage His disciples to do so either. So, if nothing else, when push came to shove they may have been ready but were not ever actually instructed by Jesus to act.
But - yeah, there's a big push amongst many ex Wayfers to have an arsenal, and some do have that feeling that's what Jesus would want....weird. To your point, a "spiritual" battle as described in Ephesians is not going to be won with guns, that's kind of the ultimate knife at a gun fight scenario. So if I were a spiritual-view conspiracy-nutter, I'd be looking elsewhere for arms.
Me-I don't think God or Jesus care if we want to shoot each other to hell and back, they're going to let us do it. For now. I just would not drag them into it when we clearly are in an age when neither the Old Testament perspective nor the Coming Age reality is in place. We have both capacity and facility to do good and live right - or not. We may like to preach 'n' holler 'bout Jesus comin' back with a grenade launcher and He's gonna settle scores and take names - fine. That being the case then...in the meantime....can we maybe just kind of not make it worse?
That's my take anyway - but sure, I think it requires a lot of care to not go off on every little fear and paranoia we have, nor on every great success and joy. Celebrate the good, learn from everything we can and live a peaceful life as much as I can. Outside of my own insulation-shielded subterranean communications center where I keep 5 years supply of food, water and Pampers, I don't worry 'bout nuttin'.
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johniam
Waysider, I did not intend to derail the thread. In my mind, being receptive to all that stuff suggested gullibility. Are you really "curious" or did you just not give me a copy of the script? I maintain that credibility being in place is what enabled what you call "nuttiness". I'm not the final word on this or anything else. I made the remark about attacking VPs credibility as a supporting point. In twi we gave VP as much credibility as possible. Here, most people give him as little credibility as possible. To me, this means that credibility is a major factor. Look at how much mileage Obama's gotten because all these idiots assign total credibility to him. VP never tanked the economy. He never mandated government health care and its demons. VP would have ripped his other eye out if he had lived to see this.
Think what you will, but pfal makes as much sense to me now as it ever did. I think he represented God quite well.
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waysider
I'm not sure if it's gullibility or skepticism or a combination. There's quite a difference. Both require a healthy dose of inquisition. That inquisition seems to be what is lacking. People seem to want to accept the latest theory on Obama or health care or medical quackery or gun control statistics or whatever as if what they're being told is the gospel truth. There is no excuse for that, not today, not with so much information at our fingertips. Instead, people apparently want someone else to spoon feed the answers to them. If you want to stay healthy, it's in your interest to know what's in that spoon. Blindly accepting it, without inquisition, it is gullibility. Rejecting it, in light of conflicting validation, is skepticism. A lot of the issues that are at the forefront of current controversy are not 'yes or no', 'black or white', 'either /or' type issues. Maybe that's where the problem lies. People want to accept whatever set of statistics or facts support their belief whether or not the statistics and facts are leading to a valid conclusion. The credibility of the source is always subject to scrutiny. That's how propaganda works. And, propaganda is really what is driving this current bandwagon trend.
Years ago, during times of war, airplanes would drop leaflets of propaganda for people to "consume". Resources for validating the information in them was limited at best. Today, we find ourselves in a different set of circumstances. There is too much information. We need to sort through it with a critical eye toward accuracy and adjust our opinions if warranted. That's what critical thinking is all about. How does that play out with one's background and biases? I don't know. That's what this thread is about.
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johniam
There may be too much info, but not enough time. Time sensitivity is real. If I don't reach any conclusion until I've totally processed the info, then I'll NEVER reach a conclusion. I don't really believe that Rush and his ilk are saying the gospel truth about Obama, but I trust that side of the media more than I trust the other side. Gotta start somewhere.
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waysider
So, then, this raises the question, "What is it that makes you trust one source over the other?".
Incidentally, I don't want this to become a political discussion but here are some sites that might help you sort out facts and statistics. They, of course, aren't gospel either but do give a good starting point.
HERE
HERE
HERE
HERE
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OldSkool
He certainly talked a good game, but lived quite the opposite. Think that would make him a hypocrite, and a failed representative of The Most High. Good words and fair speeches.
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waysider
I'm not trying to resurrect a VP debate but I honestly don't see how anyone, who is aware of the sordid and perverse lifestyle of Wierwille (one he carefully hid from the unsuspecting general public) can honestly say he was a Christian leader, whose lifestyle was worthy of emulation. Does that mean it's acceptable to seek out female followers (by the dozens), administer date rape drugs and then sexually molest them? Then, he deliberately recruited other upper leadership to share in his lifestyle. Really? That's a worthy example to be followed? That's what it means to represent God? It baffles me how anyone can rationalize that by saying they learned some cool stuff in a class that has long since been proven to be the product of deliberate plagiarism.
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Twinky
Johniam genuinely feels that PFAL helped his life. And as such, PFAL was valid and worthwhile. To him.
And in fact to many of us, because it showed us things that other church and religious organizations did not.
That's in no small measure because more godly men than VPW first worked out the material in PFAL, that VPW subsequently plagiarized.
It's by the grace of God that all of us profited to some degree from PFAL - Johniam included.
But by the further grace of God that our eyes were opened to the legalism and hypocritical behavior practiced by VPW and others in leadership.
And, for some of us, by yet further grace, our eyes were opened to an understanding of what things, what practices, God protected us from while we were subject to TWI.
While ever eyes are focused on individuals in leadership, leadership will be found to fail. Our eyes are to be focused on a much better model - that of Jesus Christ.
Then we can be forgiving of real, perceived or imagined failures on the part of leadership...
...unless, of course, leadership seeks to insert itself into the place rightfully occupied by Jesus Christ. ("You shall be like God!" or "You shall be like JC!")
Now that is nutty!
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waysider
Would that include such things as "Christ's eyes behind your eyes, Christ's ears behind your ears, etc....as taught in the Advanced Class?
Doh! It just dawned on me that this is, in essence, not much different that the channelling that mediums claim to do. Except, this variety involves Jesus Christ instead of dear old Aunt Agnes.
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chockfull
We are not isolating bad things VP did as though good things didn't exist. We are presenting both sides of the story. VP only presented the good side, and lied and covered up the bad side, including firing people who taught it was wrong. Remember the adultery paper? Remember John Schoenheit sharing his story about just wanting the Word to get out and influence people, then finding himself fired, excommunicated, and slandered?
You have a good feeling about VP because the splinter group you attend, while not being under TWI's authority, like so many other splinter groups base their existence on "the Word VP taught". Thus you and your group, like TWI excuse grievous sin not excused by God, sweep it under the carpet, and live in a rose colored delusional world where all you need are these Bible sharings that you perceive to be originally taught by VP. In reality they were not, as it is very clearly laid out in this site how much of his teachings were plagiarized from other ministers. Groups even excuse that, saying "what does it matter as long as the Word is taught". It matters. It matters to God. It matters to Christians. It matters to communities.
All we are doing is holding up the standard of what the Bible says leadership should be in our day and time. "husband of one wife" is pretty clear as a leadership standard. Serial adultery would be violating God's Word as a standard for leadership. Having an unwritten doctrine of serial adultery for the leaders in a ministry is sin. So apparently you have a problem with the Bible and its "moral superiority".
You see Christianity is based upon knowing the truth and the truth setting you free. If a man's words prove that he does not know the difference between truth and lie, then it is impossible for him to come to the truth, as the words of truth won't be recognized. It's not the truth's fault, it's the man's fault for conditioning his conscience to lies, and developing a conscience seared with a hot iron.
There are higher standards for leaders. That's why Jesus taught it was better to have a millstone hung around your neck and you be drowned than as a leader using your spiritual authority to hurt those lesser than you.
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rascal
I hope that you are right. :(
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rascal
I guess that most of the folks that I knew that became involved with twi were young people that had been vulnerable for a variety of reasons, broken family, abuse, drugs, etc. twi promised answers to those who had little guidance or experience. When we left, though older we were still vulnerable, still lacking reliable guidance. I feel like I had to do my 'growing up' in my forties, learning to test all things, that's not everything is as it seems, etc....things most folks learn in their twenties ....or younger if they have the guidance and wisdom of someone older with more experience in life.
I see the difference in my now adult children, verses their dad and I who had to learn everything on our own, the hard way.
Just my thought.
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OldSkool
I've been told from numerous and separate sources, including his own granddaughter. I've also read Losing the Way, and The Cult That Snapped. If two or three witnesses is all that's required biblically, I would say Wierwille is facing a host of witnesses.
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chockfull
Wow - amazing perspective. In this you can see that TWI is a lot like doing drugs. The end result is finding emotional growth stunted into your middle-aged years.
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chockfull
Infallible logic.
Plus, all the sin is very well hidden. I was in leadership for years and the only exposure I had to the adultery stuff was Craig being removed. Then the Corps got confronted by Rosalie for knowing about that stuff but not speaking up. But I didn't know about it before.
But she did.
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dabobbada
The strength and power of a counterfiet is in how close it is set to resemble the truth.
vp used to say something similiar to that.
The counterfiet is either hidden under the truth or is made to appear legitimate by being set next to truth.
But as scripture put it, when the truth is mixed with a lie, it is made into the lie.
As Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels used to say, if you say the big lie long enough and loud enough, people will begin to believe it.
vp plagerized and blended the works of other great men and mixed them in with his self serving greeds and lusts. He used the grace of god and the freedom in christ as excuse to play out his lusts. The Apostle Paul warned against this time and again. What we have seen since the '80's shows the results of his works.
When vp died, he believed he had the right to do what he did because of the grace of god and freedom in christ. He knew his hidden realm was wrong, but forgiveness was his get out of jail for free card, and he used it to the max.
What he chose to ignore was that using good to do evil brings severe consequences and his legacy has reaped that wind.
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johniam
quote: You have a good feeling about VP because the splinter group you attend, while not being under TWI's authority, like so many other splinter groups base their existence on "the Word VP taught". Thus you and your group, like TWI excuse grievous sin not excused by God, sweep it under the carpet, and live in a rose colored delusional world where all you need are these Bible sharings that you perceive to be originally taught by VP. In reality they were not, as it is very clearly laid out in this site how much of his teachings were plagiarized from other ministers. Groups even excuse that, saying "what does it matter as long as the Word is taught". It matters. It matters to God. It matters to Christians. It matters to communities.
Not true. You have some rigid stereotypes to unload.
VP is hardly ever mentioned in teachings. Chris Geer has a foundational and an intermediate class. His foundational class is 22 hours long compared to VPs 34. Just out of curiosity, how long is LCMs WAP foundational class?
VP is dead. So are his sins. His love, hate, and envy are perished. You know the verse. If we look through rose colored glasses it's about our own sins. I've been with this group 8 years now and I've been in meetings, formal and informal, in which there were discussions about twi way back in the 70s. None of those guys talk about cheating on their wives. They don't even say derogatory things about them as women. We're just people who assemble in the sight of God to worship Him, pray to him, and receive his blessings. Just like the best of times in twi.
Do we feel we owe VP a debt of gratitude? Certainly. His twi had 3 main points of doctrine that separated twi from mainstream Christianity: 1) JC is not God, 2) the dead are dead, and 3) SIT is worshipping God in spirit and truth. Yes, we still believe all that. As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't. It's God's word or it isn't. Obsessing over who VP may have "borrowed" from is straining at a gnat and swallowing at a camel IMO. "It matters to Christians"??? So you're saying that spinoffs aren't Christians? That's your opinion. We think the communities we have fellowship in are blessed. So there. Call it whatever you wish.
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OldSkool
So, in other words, as long as you guys feel good about what you are doing, you are willing to ignore Wierwille's evils and build new work on a corrupt foundation. Have at it.
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waysider
"As far as plagiarism goes, who cares? God doesn't."
Really??
God doesn't care about stealing and deception?
I must have missed that lesson in Sunday School.
"It's God's word or it isn't."
So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas, I would have to conclude 'it isn't'.
Actual errors in PFAL
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WordWolf
[i included your incorrectly-formatted quote because it's clear, when both are included,
you refuted something that was never posted.
It wasn't said that vpw was MENTIONED in teachings.
You're using his FRAMEWORK entirely whether or not you're mentioning him each night.
If you claim you're not crediting him silently while using his framework entirely,
you might convince yourself but you won't convince us.
You-and everyone there who learned in twi- have your group based on the construct
you'd call "the Word VP taught." (I'd call it something less laudatory.)
Those who arrived later, I would bet my life they've heard LOTS of claims about
vpw from those who were earlier. It doesn't have to be right during a teaching or
a sermon, it can be before or after during socializing, or even some other day
when there's no session.]
[it's about the damage vpw wrought, the lives destroyed, the minds damaged.
And the systematizing of error he set up, which is still harming people in ways large and small.
Some of them aren't even aware of the damage. Poor V2P2 has been set up so badly it will be
DECADES before he can get free-if it ever happens during his lifetime.
The harm people do can live on for years, decades, even centuries after their deaths.]
[A lot of people who were never in the cadre (however one would term it) never were privy to the "lockbox"
nor were told to cheat on wives. I was never told it-although many WERE told it.
It's entirely possible you're correct that this is all nice talk going on.
Then again,
I've seen your posts here, and what you consider acceptable speech.
At times, you seem unaware a line was crossed.
It's entirely possible that what you think was just fine contained something
other Christians might find objectionable- and by that I mean CONDUCT, not
"how many were crucified" or the like. A more objective reporter of what
goes on at your meetings would be more convincing.]
[All those were taught by Christians before vpw came along. They may be minority opinions,
but there's actually a lot of minority positions in Christianity.
Sir Isaac Newton, Bible scholar, was never threatened with violence
for his position against the Trinity a few centuries ago.
I mentioned that position to another Christian, and his sole comment was
"the original historical position of Christians." He was just a certain
disciple, and it was old news to him, and hardly shocking.
The "dead are dead" thing is called "soul sleep" because enough people
believe in it that it needs a term so people know what you're talking about.
Lots of Christians believe that.
As for SIT, you're ignoring that even vpw said it was common enough that
the event he attended (with the imaginary snowstorm) had lots of people
who SIT'd and who BEGAN SIT'ing at that meeting. In fact, it was so expected
that he'd become one, that (if he didn't invent that part) he was able to
INTENTIONALLY DECEIVE them and PRETEND he was SIT'ing and just spoke some
Greek. Both Leonard and Stiles were teaching this stuff all over the place
before vpw stumbled across them both.
If you weren't hiding from that, vpw's supposed "accomplishment" wouldn't
sound nearly as impressive. He hid the names of others who did all the work
from nearly everyone, along with their accomplishments. The goal was to get
all the credit and separate us from other Christians.
It's still working-some people STILL give him all the credit, and STILL
separate themselves from other Christians.
I give him all the credit he warrants for that.
He may be dead, but his legacy still affects people who should be warned.
Of course, as God says, once the alarm is sounded, it's up to the people
to heed it or it's on them.]
[God care deeply about people lying to his people, about people causing his people to stumble,
about those who led his people to sin, about those who abuse the office of religious leader.
That's a repetitive lesson all over the Bible.
"It's God's Word or it isn't." You're completely missing the point. Whether any one
statement of vpw is true or a lie is independent of whether or not it was plagiarized.
We've said that for more than 10 years now. "Truth from the pen of a plagiarist is still truth." (Raf.)
The actual issues are ones of CHARACTER. Someone goes out to deceive the brethren, then rape
some of them, take their money for his vices, and set up a criminal cartel to cover his tracks.
His plagiarism was his LURE and his COVER. People thought they were getting "God's Word" when
they were being set up for being used.
"If you're really the Son of God, jump off this roof. It is written, after all, that
He will send His angels to protect you so you don't even bang your foot against a stone."
Ever hear that evil ones can quote actual Scripture and use it for evil ends, to manipulate
others and claim it's God's Will? It's been going on for millenia. It happened to us,
and you think that's a non-issue. Well, I'm glad I don't have to answer for it.
I was young and naive once.
As to whether or not you're Christians, I'd have to consider that Jesus' sheep hear his
voice, and that people of God actually care about things the way God does- approving
what He approves of, and disapproving of what he DISapproves of. Me, I'm not prepared
to prop up the reputation of someone who will face consequences severe enough that
they'd be better off with cement galoshes and dropped in the ocean.]
===============================================
[Why were some twi'ers, why are some extwi'ers attracted to nutty things?
I think there's the appeal of SIMPLE ANSWERS.
Someone hands over something simple and live is black-and-white and can
fit on a bumper sticker. I can see the appeal of that.
I can also see the appeal of embezzlement, but I'm not signing up for
either one.
I also think that people feel special if they think there's some secret
they feel privy too. "You shall be like God, knowing good and evil"
was tempting, in part, because of "knowing good and evil like God"
sounded like some special knowledge when what was offered was
actually nothing. Adam & Eve couldn't be offered to know good
any better, so what was offered was actually knowledge of evil.
But it was framed as "SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE."
People are often vulnerable to it.
It was tempting to some people to think that WE, as twi people,
were SPECIAL in the Earth, UNIQUE among Christians, possessing
the SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE and obviously superior to other Christians
who were unworthy to be our peers. That arrogance was instilled
into twi from the beginning and from its head. It took a lot of
us years to rid ourselves of it. Some of us still wrestle with
some of it. Some of us can't even begin to root it out.]
[Pretty much.
And they'd appreciate it if you stopped mentioning that because it's easier to
ignore something when someone's not warning people about it every month.]
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johniam
Romans 14:4a - Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?
I guess you guys never got that memo.
quote: So much of what VP taught has been shown to be inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted to accommodate his dubious agendas,
Where has Jesus Christ is not God been "shown" to be inaccurate? How about the dead being dead? How about SIT? Talk about "plagiarising". Anything about those subjects that has been "shown" on GSC had been shown before by "legitimate" Christians who called us a cult.
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WordWolf
[i noticed you've ripped the verse out of its CONTEXT.
What it's saying is nothing like what you're CLAIMING it's saying.
The chapter is SPECIFIC about addressing a SPECIFIC problem in the Roman church-
that of whether or not foods offered to idols should be eaten by Christians.]
Romans 14:1-19
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
=========================
[To anyone seeking to learn what the passage is saying, it's clear-
it's addressing a complicated, specific issue, and whether a Christian should judge
another Christian based on whether he will or won't eat food offered to idols.
Even there, the general guidelines are clear and obvious-
don't use your freedom in Christ to harm your brethren.
Do the things which edify your brethren.
DON'T PUT A STUMBLINGBLOCK BEFORE YOUR BRETHREN.
As for whether or not Christians are supposed to exercise judgement,
if one stops pulling one verse out of context, and studies THE ENTIRE BIBLE
rather than just look for what appears to agree with one's theology,
the main thrust of Scripture says the opposite of what you are saying it is,
even-perhaps especially- to the Christian.
II Timothy 4:14-15
14. Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
I Corinthians 5:1-13
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
=======================
We are EXPECTED to "judge them that are within."
We have a SPECIFIC INSTRUCTION. Ïf any man that is called a brother (in Christ) is:
a fornicator OR
covetous OR
an idolator OR
a railer OR
a drunkard OR
and extortioner,
we don't fellowship with him, we don't eat with him. We are to JUDGE him and send him AWAY as a result.
So, if a man is habitually unfaithful in his marriage OR greedy and grasping, OR a worshipper of an idol
or of self rather than God, OR a loud, rude yeller OR an abuser of alcohol OR gets his way by
threatening others
(I meant HABITUAL when I said HABITUAL because it doesn't mean a man who makes ONE scene or takes
an occasional drink or whatever),
we are to judge him and send him away.
Obviously, then, if he is MANY of those or MOST of those (or even ALL), then we are supposed to
judge him and send him away.
I Corinthians 6:1-6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
Paul was OFFENDED that Christians REFUSED TO JUDGE and rather made things
between Christians to be matters of the secular law.
We are EXPECTED and REQUIRED to judge- and judge RIGHTLY.
We are expected to handle things BEFORE they are sent to the courts,
and that's seen as a failure of one or more parties if it comes to that.
I can keep going, but the point is clear.
Anyone who wants to "do God's Word" has more than enough to make it clear what that is in this instance.
Those who would rather do their own will won't heed it if 1/2 the Bible said to do the opposite.
Same old Johniam. Someone addressed one thing, you refuted something else.
Nobody said that every utterance of vpw was disproven.
Nobody said the Trinity was proven, nobody said soul sleep was refuted.
But you invented a complaint that was easy to argue against, and knocked
down your strawman.
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