1 Cor. 1:20 - Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
Sounds disdainful to me. Looking both ways before crossing a road is not the "wisdom of this world". It's horse sense. Any special ed person can do that. Any animal can do that. Jeez...
And any horse would have the sense to stay away from an owner/master/trainer that ABUSED it.
We were taught that our "horse sense" and all those "red flags" that warned us AWAY from the abuses of TWI were just our "thoughts" getting in the way. Instead of our God-given wisdom telling us to GET THE HECK OUT OF HERE.
The only way TWI worked is to steal the good workmanship and words of good Godly men.
But the example set - the living way - was so corrupt that THAT was what we should have fled from.
Many here will agree that some of the words we were "taught" were helpful or informative.
And many here will agree that many of the practices of TWI were destructive.
C'm'on, John, you're so smart, help Waysider out and define "wisdom of the world" as you don't accept what you call "horse sense" as wisdom. Maybe you could define horse sense while you're about it.
Those who claim to represent God are to live at a very high standard. Wierwille did not do this. He was a greedy, drunken, hypocrite who served his own lusts at the expense of others and left a lot of shattered lives in his wake. He will answer for that one day.
Scripture also talks of Pharisees, whose protoges are threefold the children of hell they are. VP is the living epitome of this verse. His protoges - Craig and then Rosalie sure fit the bill described there.
You don't exactly need a hook when a trail of bread crumbs suffices..one lays out the trail of "logical" steps and conclusions.. and just waits for the followers to THINK they are logically coming to the same conclusion..
We were taught about the "bait" the whole time we gagged it down.. Ideas capture men, not weapons..
Why are ex-TWI people attracted to things others find "nutty"? I think a fair share of people are attracted to mysteries, drama, scandal, etc. And it's not new. The National Enquirer still sells, for example, despite finding Elvis for the 8000th time. Maybe we're just more sensitive to our fellow former TWIts falling for them?
This preoccupation with moral superiority is quite a distraction. Nobody is morally superior to anybody else. Each of us has an old man nature. Some people are in authority over others. Some people have better discipline than others. Some people are looked up to by others. Some people make better choices than others. Nobody is morally superior. If I could be morally superior to others, then Christ wouldn't have had to die for me.
Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh?
The bible isn't the revealed word and will of God? Jesus Christ didn't fully pay for man's sin? I could continue.
I just had to put up with Stan Musial worship for the past 2 weeks. By all accounts he was a good man, but he wasn't Jesus. VP did more for me than Stan. You all judge him after man's judgement, after the flesh, after the wisdom of this world. Glad it's you and not me.
When did this become about claiming moral superiority? Could it be you're reading something into this that isn't there?
I'm fascinated with how people defend Wierwille by comparing him to Biblical figures. He wasn't a Biblical figure. He wasn't even a good example of what it means to live a Biblical-inspired lifestyle.
The revealed word/will of God?....Jesus paying for sin?.... What does any of that have to do with the theme of this thread?
I'm not judging VP. That's not my job. That doesn't mean I should ignore the obvious, though. This man, VP, whose example you suggest we should emulate, was a man who deliberately misrepresented his vocational credentials. (You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?) He was a plagiarist, habitual liar and drunken sexual predator, who even went as far as to publicly claim he sexually molested his own daughter. Did he actually do it? I don't know. I only know he claimed to have done it. That, in itself, is plenty bad enough for me to declare him an unfit example.
You claim he taught you the "truths of God's word". Did that include portions of your Bible that dictate a man of God is supposed to be beyond reproach? Maybe he wasn't beyond reproach because he wasn't what he promoted himself as, a man of God.
My conclusion would have to be that his actions summarily misrepresented God, both as as an example of how a spokesman for God should conduct himself and as an example of what one should expect the Christian lifestyle to be.
We can get back to the subject of this thread or we can let it continue as a debate about Wierwille's fittness as a clergyman.
Why do ex-Way people seem to be so receptive to whatever conspiracy theory and bad science happens to be in vogue? Politics, medicine, scientific discoveries, medical news, health news, legislation....you name it. Was there something in our indoctrination that preconditioned us to ignore logic and jump on the latest bandwagon? O.K.....I'm not interested in debating any one particular issue, just curious about the basic concept in general.
This was the first post.
I don't think that anyone who's still attracted to nuttiness
This preoccupation with moral superiority is quite a distraction. Nobody is morally superior to anybody else. Each of us has an old man nature. Some people are in authority over others. Some people have better discipline than others. Some people are looked up to by others. Some people make better choices than others. Nobody is morally superior. If I could be morally superior to others, then Christ wouldn't have had to die for me.
Calling things like they are is not moral superiority. Adultery is sin. A continued practice and doctrine of adultery among a leadership group is sin. It is not moral superiority to state this. Look - the vast majority of businesses seem to be able to run without this type of doctrine traversing their top executive ranks. A Christian organization is supposed to offer people something better than an example of ongoing and indoctrinated sin, and at that a worse moral example than your average non-Christian organization.
Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh?
The disturbing part of this paragraph is you putting VP in parallel to Moses, David, and Paul. VP was a plagiarist and a serial adulterer. He even used the record of David's story to introduce wrong doctrine - that all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king, and that adultery in the Bible didn't mean what VP practiced, but instead a "spiritual" adultery consisting of removing yourself from under VP's authority, or "not standing".
God's ways are higher than our ways is a nice little trite statement trying to introduce mysticism in to where there really isn't a place for mysticism. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing. God's higher ways here would include seeing through the sheep costume and smelling wolf. Perhaps one day you will aspire to this rather than making excuses and deifying and enabling sinners.
The bible isn't the revealed word and will of God? Jesus Christ didn't fully pay for man's sin? I could continue.
You didn't ask the right question here. That would be "God didn't talk to VP and tell him to teach the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century and confirm it with a snowstorm?" And the answer to that one would be ONE BIG FAT NO!!!!!! That was all VP hype and lies, and none of God.
I just had to put up with Stan Musial worship for the past 2 weeks. By all accounts he was a good man, but he wasn't Jesus. VP did more for me than Stan. You all judge him after man's judgement, after the flesh, after the wisdom of this world. Glad it's you and not me.
If Stan Musial didn't use his spiritual authority to have sex with young women with devastating consequences, then in my book he was a better man than VP. And I am not "judging him after man's judgement". I am judging him by the very standard he purported to teach - God's Word. And if you don't do that, you are an enabler, and share some responsibility in the sin.
It's nutty to argue moral superiority not being either possible or right. Morals have to do with behavior - principles and belief in action.
It's bad theology and I would say atrocious Christianity to ignore morality. It's opposite what Christ taught, that what goes into a man and what he does with it is more important than simply what goes in. Many things go in - what do we do with it? Christ exhorted a faith towards God and to follow Him. Peeling off morality judgments to avoid the inevitable pain of seeing reality for what it is removes an essential and fundamental step in understanding who we are and possibly why we do what we do.
To say "because we're all in sin", we're all sinners, is a cop out. Of course we all are.
Remember? Mercy and Grace -
Mercy allows for the kind of atonement that man can perform, sacritices, rituals, offerings of value. When atonment is performed mercy can be applied.
Grace is another step forward from that - God's mercy and atonment through Jesus Christ has then brought forth a "gift" to those who accept atonement and all that goes with it - grace. We aren't simply the recipients of mercy because something was done to atone for something, we are the reicpients of much more than that now - by God's grace. More has been given to us than what was atoned for, in other words.
This is so basic I hesitate to even write it - it is Romans and Ephesians. :)/>/>/>/>It's impossible to "be" redeemed" without then accepting the gift of God's grace. Grace is the capacity of God to give more than what we deserve and are forgiven for.
This puts us in a unique position to both change how we choose to live as well as accept what God has given. Again - it's basic bible stuff.
A moral view of the world is essential. Without it we disconnect from who and what we "were" and what we "are" now and how that relates to God's creation, our place in it, our futures, etc. etc.
Judgment .........................................................................................that's a different deal. Isn't it? And maybe that's what we struggle with - if we don't submit to begin with we won't want to stand judged - remembering it's through our submission to Christ's atonement that we can stand judged, and atoned. For. And stuff.
Looking back people can see a David, how he did wrongful things to others and yet was described as a "man after God's own heart"....but forget that an atonment was required for his sins and it was David who had to then accept God's judgment and then change his behaviors and actions in order to be that "new man". Before that, the bible says that "the thing David had done displeased the Lord"............the ramiifications of his actions were as horrible as can be imagined.
We are "new men" in Christ but morally we can ask ourselves the question - "do I live that new life, do I act like it?" without fear of falling into condemnation. Aspiring upwards into God's grace, we can.
Or we can just keep living like we did in the past and act like it doesn't matter. That's not "grace" though. Had David done that he would not have been a "man after God's own heart".
I am of the opinion no reasonable man or woman can refute this if they are a Christian. We may not like it, we may want to float in some ethereal world where we don't want to be judged by God's judgments or called out for being less than God would have us to be, nor see it in others -
But it is the way it is - morals and judgment - and I find man does it anyway, even if he labels it something else to make himself feel better about it.:)/>/>/>
I would add - the "wisdom of the world" thingie - doesn't it relate to Christ and God's plan through Christ.
To this world:biglaugh:/> view where there is no God, no Christ, no sin, no up or down but whatever one wishes to make of it or figure it out to be this week -
That's "foolish"....to refute the possiblity of a God so magnanimous that His creation would unfold and grow within a broader context that is not immediately 'seen"...........
It's not a disdain for the world, we live here.
We are charged to be caretakers, tenders, to replenish and cause it to flourish, with respect.
It's on that part of man that removes God and His son Jesus Christ that's called "foolish". To that unrepentant mind, Christ is "foolish".
Kills me how people take that and use it to shoot holes in whatever they don't like. Funny, really but very human (and we are that, very).
I suspect Jesus liked a warm, quiet hillside, cool water on a hot day, hard work, good food, the sound of industry in the distance, even knowing that the very world that would reject Him would come to know God through what He was doing and going to do.
Kinda cool to think about that. I'm going to go think about that.....peace!
Could it be that ex and current wayers are attracted to "nuttiness" was because the vicster was so successful in selling it? Ignoring doctrinal anomalies.. where else were you just SOOOOOO excited to learn.. the original sin was masterbation. No.. that is pure nuttiness. Doesn't fit doctrine. So excited to learn that the massacre in Guyana was not led by a religious nutcase, but by our own government.. that Noah was castrated by his very own son, and that the churches don't want us to know the truth about all of this.. oh. The Republic was supposed to be invaded in 1976, and constitutional rights erased.. then another takeover in was it 1982? Then, the Pope was supposed to be purchasing an air craft carrier, boarding, and initiating a new inquisition in the U.S..
Are people really that gullible, addicted to one conspiracy theory after another?
It would be far cheaper to buy a news stand conspiracy rag for a couple bucks and agree with it.
vic should have been a used car salesman.
I think there is almost a sexual, or addictive component here.
When it came to conspiracy theories and vic:
nobody does it better..
not even Beck. The rest of them just seem to turn out being screaming, sobbing lunatics.
I don't think that anyone who's still attracted to nuttiness
AFTER leaving twi should be allowed to derail it.
Nobody posted for 2 full days before my post today. Just exactly WHAT am I derailing???
quote: We can get back to the subject of this thread or we can let it continue as a debate about Wierwille's fittness as a clergyman.
Circular
quote: Calling things like they are is not moral superiority.
Yeah, but isolating bad things somebody did as though the good things don't exist IS moral superiority.
quote:
It's bad theology and I would say atrocious Christianity to ignore morality. It's opposite what Christ taught, that what goes into a man and what he does with it is more important than simply what goes in. Many things go in - what do we do with it? Christ exhorted a faith towards God and to follow Him. Peeling off morality judgments to avoid the inevitable pain of seeing reality for what it is removes an essential and fundamental step in understanding who we are and possibly why we do what we do.
You mean what comes out of a man's mouth is more revealing than what goes in? He told that rich young ruler who tried to flatter him by saying "good master" why call me good? Only God is good.
Sure, we all make moral judgements. Like I said, some people are in authority over other people. If I'm in authority as a parent, boss, supervisor, or whatever, then I can apply whatever I personally think is moral to any situation I want, but that doesn't mean I'm always going to be right.
You mean what comes out of a man's mouth is more revealing than what goes in? He told that rich young ruler who tried to flatter him by saying "good master" why call me good? Only God is good.
Sure, we all make moral judgements. Like I said, some people are in authority over other people. If I'm in authority as a parent, boss, supervisor, or whatever, then I can apply whatever I personally think is moral to any situation I want, but that doesn't mean I'm always going to be right.
-----
No, you're wriggling John, relax, it's not a hot seat. Jesus Christ clearly, without question and without variation said - these words - or something in His native language very close to them or at least has been quoted for 2000 years as having said this so if you don't like it complain to someone else please:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
So yes what comes out of a person's mouth - what they say and in fact what they do - is of greater significance because it indicates what he has processed, believes, perhaps even likes and now chooses to do.
Jesus said that, bitch to Him, although I suspect He would just suggest you read it again until that is what comes out of you, instead of trying to match His words against Him, argue against His teaching, catch Him in His Words - same .... that people did then. Good job illustrating my point though,but honest, I didn't expect you to. :wink2:/>/>/> So quick.
Of course not everyone is right. You aren't either, don't let that stop you from trying though - just because we're frail and prone to error as humans doesn't mean we can't be better, do better and enjoy God's blessings more.
It's really an open/shut case - I just like to point it out from time to time. Wayfers and some exWayfers will get their dandruff in an uproar over it and guys like John Lynn will get bug eyed and grease on some more hair gel and another corny one liner to try and refute it. Can't help that, it's just the way it is.
Yeah! This beauty was only driven to a doctrinal anomaly in Ugoslavia. Only one owner.. not contaminated by more than One God.. Oh. How many Gods do you think there are.. more for sale, at a little known bookstore, at a little known corner, in technically not even New Knoxville. Auglaise county. someplace, somewhere..
Mr. Johniam.. I'm glad you are happy and satisfied.. God Bless you friend..
It violates my vision of the end times.. The last I'm supposed to remember.. is being in a building of sorts.. walls of glass or crystal.. reaching up about fifteen meters or so. Walking around, with others clothed in white.. call it what you will. It is my personal, nuttiness. Every other weird vision or whatever has already happened. This last one, no. don't see much aside of darkness in reality.. but..apparently I'm still on the bus. :)
Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh?
Uhh....this argument is extremely flawed because Moses, David, and Paul repented and never repeated their sins - which is why they are given as examples to follow.
Wierwille, on the other hand, spent his life trying to conceal his evil ways, and used his "ministry" as a device to fulfill his lusts.
From the Song of Soloman 6:11: "11I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley. .."
Being from the Bay Area of California and a San Francisco Beatnik, I thought it nothing strange that God cared about the fruits and nuts of the world (such as myself). It was easy to believe (and I still do believe) that "love conquers all," which I thought (and still think) that the Lord sends us forth to do.
twi, of course, when vp traded his life for a mess of pottage, relinquished the Holy Spirit, the power of the Name of Jesus and His precious Blood, without which no one can ever be the promised "more than conquerors" or even lift a sword in the spiritual battle which rages.
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chockfull
Calling things like they are is not moral superiority. Adultery is sin. A continued practice and doctrine of adultery among a leadership group is sin. It is not moral superiority to state this. Loo
Kit Sober
From the Song of Soloman 6:11: "11I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley. .." Being from the Bay Area of California and a San Francisco Beatnik, I thought it nothing stra
Steve Lortz
Philippians 3:17-19 "17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. "18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even wee
Twinky
And any horse would have the sense to stay away from an owner/master/trainer that ABUSED it.
We were taught that our "horse sense" and all those "red flags" that warned us AWAY from the abuses of TWI were just our "thoughts" getting in the way. Instead of our God-given wisdom telling us to GET THE HECK OUT OF HERE.
The only way TWI worked is to steal the good workmanship and words of good Godly men.
But the example set - the living way - was so corrupt that THAT was what we should have fled from.
Many here will agree that some of the words we were "taught" were helpful or informative.
And many here will agree that many of the practices of TWI were destructive.
C'm'on, John, you're so smart, help Waysider out and define "wisdom of the world" as you don't accept what you call "horse sense" as wisdom. Maybe you could define horse sense while you're about it.
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OldSkool
Right! It's not an all or nothing proposal. Some practices are fine, somethings that were taught are truth. A hook needs bait, no?
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chockfull
Scripture also talks of Pharisees, whose protoges are threefold the children of hell they are. VP is the living epitome of this verse. His protoges - Craig and then Rosalie sure fit the bill described there.
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Ham
You don't exactly need a hook when a trail of bread crumbs suffices..one lays out the trail of "logical" steps and conclusions.. and just waits for the followers to THINK they are logically coming to the same conclusion..
We were taught about the "bait" the whole time we gagged it down.. Ideas capture men, not weapons..
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JustThinking
Why are ex-TWI people attracted to things others find "nutty"? I think a fair share of people are attracted to mysteries, drama, scandal, etc. And it's not new. The National Enquirer still sells, for example, despite finding Elvis for the 8000th time. Maybe we're just more sensitive to our fellow former TWIts falling for them?
JT
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johniam
Like the verse says, the wisdom of this world is anything that "disputes" God's wisdom. News story of the year.
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waysider
circular
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johniam
This preoccupation with moral superiority is quite a distraction. Nobody is morally superior to anybody else. Each of us has an old man nature. Some people are in authority over others. Some people have better discipline than others. Some people are looked up to by others. Some people make better choices than others. Nobody is morally superior. If I could be morally superior to others, then Christ wouldn't have had to die for me.
Are you aware that the 3 men who wrote the most scripture all participated in murders. Moses actually did one, David arranged one, and Paul enabled them. So much for moral superiority. God's ways are higher than our ways. So VP didn't represent God, huh?
The bible isn't the revealed word and will of God? Jesus Christ didn't fully pay for man's sin? I could continue.
I just had to put up with Stan Musial worship for the past 2 weeks. By all accounts he was a good man, but he wasn't Jesus. VP did more for me than Stan. You all judge him after man's judgement, after the flesh, after the wisdom of this world. Glad it's you and not me.
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waysider
When did this become about claiming moral superiority? Could it be you're reading something into this that isn't there?
I'm fascinated with how people defend Wierwille by comparing him to Biblical figures. He wasn't a Biblical figure. He wasn't even a good example of what it means to live a Biblical-inspired lifestyle.
The revealed word/will of God?....Jesus paying for sin?.... What does any of that have to do with the theme of this thread?
I'm not judging VP. That's not my job. That doesn't mean I should ignore the obvious, though. This man, VP, whose example you suggest we should emulate, was a man who deliberately misrepresented his vocational credentials. (You know he wasn't really a "Dr.", don't you?) He was a plagiarist, habitual liar and drunken sexual predator, who even went as far as to publicly claim he sexually molested his own daughter. Did he actually do it? I don't know. I only know he claimed to have done it. That, in itself, is plenty bad enough for me to declare him an unfit example.
You claim he taught you the "truths of God's word". Did that include portions of your Bible that dictate a man of God is supposed to be beyond reproach? Maybe he wasn't beyond reproach because he wasn't what he promoted himself as, a man of God.
My conclusion would have to be that his actions summarily misrepresented God, both as as an example of how a spokesman for God should conduct himself and as an example of what one should expect the Christian lifestyle to be.
We can get back to the subject of this thread or we can let it continue as a debate about Wierwille's fittness as a clergyman.
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WordWolf
This was the first post.
I don't think that anyone who's still attracted to nuttiness
AFTER leaving twi should be allowed to derail it.
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chockfull
Calling things like they are is not moral superiority. Adultery is sin. A continued practice and doctrine of adultery among a leadership group is sin. It is not moral superiority to state this. Look - the vast majority of businesses seem to be able to run without this type of doctrine traversing their top executive ranks. A Christian organization is supposed to offer people something better than an example of ongoing and indoctrinated sin, and at that a worse moral example than your average non-Christian organization.
The disturbing part of this paragraph is you putting VP in parallel to Moses, David, and Paul. VP was a plagiarist and a serial adulterer. He even used the record of David's story to introduce wrong doctrine - that all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king, and that adultery in the Bible didn't mean what VP practiced, but instead a "spiritual" adultery consisting of removing yourself from under VP's authority, or "not standing".
God's ways are higher than our ways is a nice little trite statement trying to introduce mysticism in to where there really isn't a place for mysticism. VP was a wolf in sheep's clothing. God's higher ways here would include seeing through the sheep costume and smelling wolf. Perhaps one day you will aspire to this rather than making excuses and deifying and enabling sinners.
You didn't ask the right question here. That would be "God didn't talk to VP and tell him to teach the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century and confirm it with a snowstorm?" And the answer to that one would be ONE BIG FAT NO!!!!!! That was all VP hype and lies, and none of God.
If Stan Musial didn't use his spiritual authority to have sex with young women with devastating consequences, then in my book he was a better man than VP. And I am not "judging him after man's judgement". I am judging him by the very standard he purported to teach - God's Word. And if you don't do that, you are an enabler, and share some responsibility in the sin.
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socks
Nuttiness?
It's nutty to argue moral superiority not being either possible or right. Morals have to do with behavior - principles and belief in action.
It's bad theology and I would say atrocious Christianity to ignore morality. It's opposite what Christ taught, that what goes into a man and what he does with it is more important than simply what goes in. Many things go in - what do we do with it? Christ exhorted a faith towards God and to follow Him. Peeling off morality judgments to avoid the inevitable pain of seeing reality for what it is removes an essential and fundamental step in understanding who we are and possibly why we do what we do.
To say "because we're all in sin", we're all sinners, is a cop out. Of course we all are.
Remember? Mercy and Grace -
Mercy allows for the kind of atonement that man can perform, sacritices, rituals, offerings of value. When atonment is performed mercy can be applied.
Grace is another step forward from that - God's mercy and atonment through Jesus Christ has then brought forth a "gift" to those who accept atonement and all that goes with it - grace. We aren't simply the recipients of mercy because something was done to atone for something, we are the reicpients of much more than that now - by God's grace. More has been given to us than what was atoned for, in other words.
This is so basic I hesitate to even write it - it is Romans and Ephesians. :)/>/>/>/>It's impossible to "be" redeemed" without then accepting the gift of God's grace. Grace is the capacity of God to give more than what we deserve and are forgiven for.
This puts us in a unique position to both change how we choose to live as well as accept what God has given. Again - it's basic bible stuff.
A moral view of the world is essential. Without it we disconnect from who and what we "were" and what we "are" now and how that relates to God's creation, our place in it, our futures, etc. etc.
Judgment .........................................................................................that's a different deal. Isn't it? And maybe that's what we struggle with - if we don't submit to begin with we won't want to stand judged - remembering it's through our submission to Christ's atonement that we can stand judged, and atoned. For. And stuff.
Looking back people can see a David, how he did wrongful things to others and yet was described as a "man after God's own heart"....but forget that an atonment was required for his sins and it was David who had to then accept God's judgment and then change his behaviors and actions in order to be that "new man". Before that, the bible says that "the thing David had done displeased the Lord"............the ramiifications of his actions were as horrible as can be imagined.
We are "new men" in Christ but morally we can ask ourselves the question - "do I live that new life, do I act like it?" without fear of falling into condemnation. Aspiring upwards into God's grace, we can.
Or we can just keep living like we did in the past and act like it doesn't matter. That's not "grace" though. Had David done that he would not have been a "man after God's own heart".
I am of the opinion no reasonable man or woman can refute this if they are a Christian. We may not like it, we may want to float in some ethereal world where we don't want to be judged by God's judgments or called out for being less than God would have us to be, nor see it in others -
But it is the way it is - morals and judgment - and I find man does it anyway, even if he labels it something else to make himself feel better about it.:)/>/>/>
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socks
I would add - the "wisdom of the world" thingie - doesn't it relate to Christ and God's plan through Christ.
To this world:biglaugh:/> view where there is no God, no Christ, no sin, no up or down but whatever one wishes to make of it or figure it out to be this week -
That's "foolish"....to refute the possiblity of a God so magnanimous that His creation would unfold and grow within a broader context that is not immediately 'seen"...........
It's not a disdain for the world, we live here.
We are charged to be caretakers, tenders, to replenish and cause it to flourish, with respect.
It's on that part of man that removes God and His son Jesus Christ that's called "foolish". To that unrepentant mind, Christ is "foolish".
Kills me how people take that and use it to shoot holes in whatever they don't like. Funny, really but very human (and we are that, very).
I suspect Jesus liked a warm, quiet hillside, cool water on a hot day, hard work, good food, the sound of industry in the distance, even knowing that the very world that would reject Him would come to know God through what He was doing and going to do.
Kinda cool to think about that. I'm going to go think about that.....peace!
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Ham
Could it be that ex and current wayers are attracted to "nuttiness" was because the vicster was so successful in selling it? Ignoring doctrinal anomalies.. where else were you just SOOOOOO excited to learn.. the original sin was masterbation. No.. that is pure nuttiness. Doesn't fit doctrine. So excited to learn that the massacre in Guyana was not led by a religious nutcase, but by our own government.. that Noah was castrated by his very own son, and that the churches don't want us to know the truth about all of this.. oh. The Republic was supposed to be invaded in 1976, and constitutional rights erased.. then another takeover in was it 1982? Then, the Pope was supposed to be purchasing an air craft carrier, boarding, and initiating a new inquisition in the U.S..
Are people really that gullible, addicted to one conspiracy theory after another?
It would be far cheaper to buy a news stand conspiracy rag for a couple bucks and agree with it.
vic should have been a used car salesman.
I think there is almost a sexual, or addictive component here.
When it came to conspiracy theories and vic:
nobody does it better..
not even Beck. The rest of them just seem to turn out being screaming, sobbing lunatics.
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johniam
quote: I'm not judging VP. That's not my job.
Coulda fooled me.
quote:
I don't think that anyone who's still attracted to nuttiness
AFTER leaving twi should be allowed to derail it.
Nobody posted for 2 full days before my post today. Just exactly WHAT am I derailing???
quote: We can get back to the subject of this thread or we can let it continue as a debate about Wierwille's fittness as a clergyman.
Circular
quote: Calling things like they are is not moral superiority.
Yeah, but isolating bad things somebody did as though the good things don't exist IS moral superiority.
quote:
It's bad theology and I would say atrocious Christianity to ignore morality. It's opposite what Christ taught, that what goes into a man and what he does with it is more important than simply what goes in. Many things go in - what do we do with it? Christ exhorted a faith towards God and to follow Him. Peeling off morality judgments to avoid the inevitable pain of seeing reality for what it is removes an essential and fundamental step in understanding who we are and possibly why we do what we do.
You mean what comes out of a man's mouth is more revealing than what goes in? He told that rich young ruler who tried to flatter him by saying "good master" why call me good? Only God is good.
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Sure, we all make moral judgements. Like I said, some people are in authority over other people. If I'm in authority as a parent, boss, supervisor, or whatever, then I can apply whatever I personally think is moral to any situation I want, but that doesn't mean I'm always going to be right.
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socks
You mean what comes out of a man's mouth is more revealing than what goes in? He told that rich young ruler who tried to flatter him by saying "good master" why call me good? Only God is good.
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Sure, we all make moral judgements. Like I said, some people are in authority over other people. If I'm in authority as a parent, boss, supervisor, or whatever, then I can apply whatever I personally think is moral to any situation I want, but that doesn't mean I'm always going to be right.
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No, you're wriggling John, relax, it's not a hot seat. Jesus Christ clearly, without question and without variation said - these words - or something in His native language very close to them or at least has been quoted for 2000 years as having said this so if you don't like it complain to someone else please:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
So yes what comes out of a person's mouth - what they say and in fact what they do - is of greater significance because it indicates what he has processed, believes, perhaps even likes and now chooses to do.
Jesus said that, bitch to Him, although I suspect He would just suggest you read it again until that is what comes out of you, instead of trying to match His words against Him, argue against His teaching, catch Him in His Words - same .... that people did then. Good job illustrating my point though,but honest, I didn't expect you to. :wink2:/>/>/> So quick.
Of course not everyone is right. You aren't either, don't let that stop you from trying though - just because we're frail and prone to error as humans doesn't mean we can't be better, do better and enjoy God's blessings more.
It's really an open/shut case - I just like to point it out from time to time. Wayfers and some exWayfers will get their dandruff in an uproar over it and guys like John Lynn will get bug eyed and grease on some more hair gel and another corny one liner to try and refute it. Can't help that, it's just the way it is.
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Ham
Yeah! This beauty was only driven to a doctrinal anomaly in Ugoslavia. Only one owner.. not contaminated by more than One God.. Oh. How many Gods do you think there are.. more for sale, at a little known bookstore, at a little known corner, in technically not even New Knoxville. Auglaise county. someplace, somewhere..
Mr. Johniam.. I'm glad you are happy and satisfied.. God Bless you friend..
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Ham
what comes out of the mouth of man..
have you ever really listened?
A lot of times.. it isn't the Blasphemy and such that you think it might be..
sometimes.. it is like the mourning of what you might read in the book of Job..
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Ham
In the End.. you are on your own..one time or another, eventually.
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Ham
I'm getting closer to it..
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Ham
It violates my vision of the end times.. The last I'm supposed to remember.. is being in a building of sorts.. walls of glass or crystal.. reaching up about fifteen meters or so. Walking around, with others clothed in white.. call it what you will. It is my personal, nuttiness. Every other weird vision or whatever has already happened. This last one, no. don't see much aside of darkness in reality.. but..apparently I'm still on the bus. :)
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WordWolf
What are you derailing, John?
Well, on page 1, post 18, you put the first non-topic post on,
and the subject changed from "nuttiness"
to your favorite topic, how vpw's depravity should be a non-issue.
" I can't help but notice how much posters here attack VPs credibility down to the minutest detail."
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OldSkool
Uhh....this argument is extremely flawed because Moses, David, and Paul repented and never repeated their sins - which is why they are given as examples to follow.
Wierwille, on the other hand, spent his life trying to conceal his evil ways, and used his "ministry" as a device to fulfill his lusts.
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Kit Sober
From the Song of Soloman 6:11: "11I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley. .."
Being from the Bay Area of California and a San Francisco Beatnik, I thought it nothing strange that God cared about the fruits and nuts of the world (such as myself). It was easy to believe (and I still do believe) that "love conquers all," which I thought (and still think) that the Lord sends us forth to do.
twi, of course, when vp traded his life for a mess of pottage, relinquished the Holy Spirit, the power of the Name of Jesus and His precious Blood, without which no one can ever be the promised "more than conquerors" or even lift a sword in the spiritual battle which rages.
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