The Babylon mentioned in Revelation is definitely not the literal city of ancient Babylon that lies in ruins in modern day Iraq. In Revelation 1:1 it talks about showing God's servants things which must shortly come to pass and that he sent and "signified" it by His angel to John. Signified means by way of symbols. So it is obviously not literal Babylon. Actually nothing in Revelation is literal. It's all symbolism. In order to figure out what the symbol Babylon is referring to we need to gather clues from other parts of the bible if possible. In Rev 18:11 it mentions that the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over Babylon's destruction because no one buys their merchandise anymore. Then it goes on to describe the merchandise. Look at 2nd Chronicles 2:11-14. The king of Tyre mentions the merchandise during a discussion of the building of the first Temple. 8 out of 10 items used in the building of the 1st Temple are included in the merchandise of harlot Babylon in Rev. 18. Revelation was written to a 1st century audience who knew the old testament much better than us generally speaking. So various allusions in Rev. to events in books such as Ezekiel and Chronicles etc... those 1st century Christians would have immediately recognized it. Look at Ezekiel 27. It describes the merchants lamenting over the fall of the pagan city Tyre. The merchandise is different but John includes allusions to the lamenting of Tyre for a reason. Mainly the commerce of Tyre. Rev 18's allusion to the commerce of Tyre thus contains an allusion to the commerce of the Temple during the 1st century. The commercialization of the Temple was one of the things that caused Jesus to become angry. John 2:13-16 "make not my Father's house an house of merchandise".
Precious metals were used throughout the Temple. Josephus, a Jewish historian, in the Jewish War, describes the precious metals used for the doors of the inner court: " Of the gates, nine were completely overlaid with gold and silver, as were the posts and lintels, but the one outside the sanctuary was of Corinthian bronze and far more valuable than those overlaid with silver plates and set in gold". In describing the dress of harlot Babylon, Rev 17:4 uses the phrase "adorned with gold"...a reference to the Temple. Rev 18:13 consists of items used in the sacrifices and offerings of the temple. The incense of the temple included cinnamon and frankincense Exod. 30:34. Wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, and sheep were all used in temple services. Rev 18:22 says the sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard anymore. Instruments and music played a big part in temple ceremonies. See 1st Chronicles 25.
In 70 AD there was a siege around Jerusalem by the Roman army under Titus that resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Look at Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Matthew 24:1,2 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
I think most of you who have read this whole reply have figured out that I'm a preterist. It took me 2 years of reading to come to this point.
A preterist believes the book of Revelation describes things that have already come about, yes? What does the future hold for the preterist? [i'm not trying to pick an argument. I just don't know the position and am curious about it].
A preterist believes the book of Revelation describes things that have already come about, yes? What does the future hold for the preterist? [i'm not trying to pick an argument. I just don't know the position and am curious about it].
Hi Raf, Thanks for asking about preterism. To TWIers or former TWIers like us, preterism is a completely foreign doctrine. Actually, 99.9% of Christians today have no clue what preterism is and hold to "dispensational" futurism. I was like everybody else until 2006... believing that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation will be fulfilled in our future. I discovered preterism by accident in 2004. I was watching a History Channel program about the early Roman empire and some of the military campaigns of Julius Caesar. Being a history buff, the program piqued my interest so I jumped on the internet and looked up web sites with info about Roman history and some of the factions Rome was fighting during the 1st century. During this internet search I came across a web site about preterism. When I 1st read a description of preterism, I laughed out loud and said "bull pucky!"...and completely blew it off. About 2 weeks later I came across another web site about preterism but it was a powerpoint presentation of Matthew 24 explained from a preterist perspective. After reading that presentation, it made so much sense that I decided to dig deeper into the doctrine. Basically I read anything I could about preterism for about 2 years remaining skeptical. So here I am... now a believer.
It took me a while to understand that there are different flavors of preterism. For example, full preterists believe that all of the prophecies written in the bible have already been fulfilled. Partial preterists believe that some or most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled, but there are still some to be fulfilled in our future. Technically I'm a partial preterist, because I believe that evil will be completely eliminated at the final judgement(Rev 20:10-15) which is in our future. But most of what is described in Revelation (and everything in Daniel), I am convinced has already taken place and describes the invasion and destruction of Israel from 66-70 AD by the sea Beast which is Rome. Ultimately what is being described through symbols is that the sea Beast was the confederation of fallen angels who worked through leaders of the Roman empire. We are taught that satan still has dominion of the earth. As a preterist, I believe satan's dominion ended at 70 AD. That doesn't mean that evil is gone from the earth because humanity is still in a fallen state and also there are still fallen angels, oops I mean debbil spurts, here causing trouble who had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged...see Daniel 7:11-12. However, the debbil spurts running Rome were cast into the lake of fire(also a symbol) at 70 AD. The way the language reads it seems there is an individual beast who was the prince or chief fallen angel over all the other fallen angels who were running Rome pre-70 AD. So satan's dominion ended at 70 AD and he was put into prison. That also could be symbolic and not literal. In Rev. 20:3 it describes satan being cast into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. So it's possible that satan wasn't literally removed from the earth at 70AD but just in terms of his ability to deceive the nations. If you look at history post 70 AD, Christianity eventually flourished although it took a few hundred years and plenty of resistance. So getting to your question about what the future holds... I agree with Duncan McKenzie that we are currently in the 1000 years which isn't a literal 1000 years but symbolic for a very long period of time... so far 1900 and some odd years. The 1000 years started at 70AD with the end of the old covenant when the temple was destroyed during the great tribulation(Matt 24:2) and thus began the new covenant. There is some speculation that we could now be in the time where satan has been released to deceive the nations again. I know to some of you this is the craziest stuff you ever read. I think what changed my thinking to the preterist camp is the fact that I now take very little in Daniel and Revelation literally. Also there are anomalies in various prophetic passages such as Luke 21:5,6 that talks about not one stone of the temple that shall not be thrown down. Then further down the chapter there is Luke 21:20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." That is like a punch in the face : 70AD!!!70 AD!!!70AD!!! Did that not happen in 70AD? Do we know history anymore? Look at Daniel 12:1 12 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." The angel is telling Daniel thy people will be delivered(the ones written in the book) etc. Who is "thy people"? "Thy people" is Daniel's people Israel. Then Daniel asks the angel: "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" Then the man clothed in linen said: "time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." The power of the holy people(Israel), was scattered/shattered in 70 AD ! The "he" being the king of the north, who was Titus, the Roman general who led the attack on Jerusalem, but "he" was ultimately the fallen angel working through Titus. The initial invasion of Rome to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD took about 42 months(Rev 13:5) or 3.5 years. Look at Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled in 1948? There are other anomalies which I will discuss later, but my fingers need a rest right now. I believe Duncan Mckenzie has bible prophecy put together like no else although I don't agree with everything he proposes. I highly recommend reading his material. There are many articles to read here: http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/mckenzie-duncan.html Go ahead and ask more questions if you like. I usually have time to reply on weekends. Peace brothers and sisters.
I probably should have mentioned during my previous post that I do believe there will be a second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. The 1st resurrection/gathering occurring at 70 AD which included Israel's dead (pre-70AD) and the 1st century(pre-70AD) Christian's who stayed faithful to the end. Some were still alive: "Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." Some were martyred: Rev 20:4" and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It doesn't mention a second gathering in Revelation because that is probably the end of human history on this earth as we know it, shortly after the Gog and Magog event.
I have been watching all kinds of teachings about this book of revelation thing coming upon us soon. I have learned that as long as the body of Christ is still on the earth, none of that book of revelation is going to start. The body of Christ is not the subject of that book of revelation, nor can it be. Thanks for everyone's input on that book of revelation, I am starting to see that book a lot more clearer. The body of Christ has to be off the earth, what are your thoughts on this body being in the way of that book of revelation?
My take on this is that most preterists are merely lured into supposing that all prophecy has been fulfilled by comparing events in the book of Revelation with old and new testament records to find similarities. Some of today's prognosticators go further than Scripture itself, while exploring all the possibilities that seem to exist between Revelation and events even beyond the time when all Biblical records were finally written down - by also taking into account events which have happened since 100 AD or so - even until now!
It's not difficult to find such things within the Bible, for this concept does exist and is indeed valid. But the truth about the events written in the OT is that they were indeed "shadows of things to come". It's a true saying that history tends to repeat itself.
That which will occur during the time of the book of Revelation will be as a mirror image, paralleling that which has already happened in times past. Though these events will merely be a reflection of those same types of things, they will not correspond with those similar records in every detail. In reality though, many things will actually become much worse in scope!
For instance, we have yet to record any hailstones that ever weighed a "talent" (See Rev 16:21), which - in our English system of measuring - is 50 pounds! :o/> (Even the largest one on record to-date only weighed in at 2.25 pounds.)
Not only does the book of Revelation have references to former and future things, but it also contains many things which are of value to us during our present time as well! Therefore, in its true light it is seen as "eternal truth" which is good for all time - the past, the present, and the future!
However, the book of Revelation was not written concerning these former or future events themselves. In truth, those were merely written as examples for us that we may learn something by! When we approach that book seeking details on how to apply godly principles, then we will have something which will help us excel in life while we're here upon Earth!
The simple truth we can glean from studying the book of Revelation is not about what people did in the past, or what some will be doing in the future. It's really about what we desire to accomplish for ourselves today!
Daniel and Revelation have so much symbolic and figurative language that it is difficult to interpret what God was/is revealing to us. In some verses there is so much gray area that people with different subjective viewpoints will come up with very different meanings. It is like a giant word puzzle and we're just trying to fit the pieces together. But I do believe it is possible to fit the pieces together.
I mentioned in a previous post that I would discuss various anomalies in Daniel and Revelation. Anomaly meaning a deviation from the common rule, arrangement, explanation etc.
The anomaly I will discuss in this post occurs in Revelation 22. In fact this is the anomaly that sealed the deal for me regarding preterism. Look at Revelation 22:6:
"Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place."
Notice the phrase "shortly take place". To me there is no gray area there. Pretty straightforward.
Another anomaly is Revelation 22:10:
"And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand."
To me "time is at hand" means around the corner or near. Although I've seen "time is at hand" explained as meaning "imminent" which is thus explained as could happen at any time even thousands of years into the future. But connecting Rev 22:10 with 22:6 I'm guessing that "time is at hand" means a short period of time.
There is an interesting parallel of Rev. 22:10 to Daniel 12:9 "And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
The angel told Daniel that the prophecy he was given would not occur in his lifetime. The figurative phrase "words are closed up and sealed" is used. Notice Daniel 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”
But in Revelation 22:10 it says "Do not seal the words of the prophecy" ?
Not long ago, I read A Political History of Early Christianity by Allen Brent. Among other things, he described Octavian/Augustus' transition from the republic to the empire in terms of modern political theory and language, and then described the same events in the concepts and language that the Romans actually used at the time.
Surprise! The book of Revelation turns out to be a political manifesto saying Jesus Christ, not the Imperial Caesar, is Lord.
All the talk about astronomical phenomena used in Revelation was also used in Roman politics. Disorder in the heavens indicated disorder on the earth.
The Romans believed they were living in an IRON Age (corruption and decay as in "rustbelt"), and that Octavian was going to inaugerate (thus "Augustus") a new GOLDEN age.
John the Revelator argued that Jesus Christ, not Caesar, was going to start a new age, "the age to come".
The province of Asia, which contained the churches to whom John addressed the book of Revelation, was the hotbed of emperor worship, as the cities competed for imperial favors.
Even if we think, as some do, that Revelation was written in the 90s CE, about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, it's still possible to read it as historical (the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians in 598-7 BCE, as well as the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and a possible future fall of Jerusalem). Babylon is definitely code language for Rome, a city that sets on seven hills. It is even possible that the wounding and healing of the beast was a reference to "Nero Revividus".
There is a heck of a lot more to Revelation than ANY video preacher has put together!
With God, time is an eternal NOW. Time is not a linear thing such as we know.
So that means:
Now, right now, the earth is being made into what we now know.
Now, right now, Adam is being created.
Now, right now, Adam is falling.
Now, right now, prophecies are being given about Christ coming.
Now, right now, Christ is coming.
Now, right now, Christ is being executed.
Now, right now, Christ is rising from the dead.
Now, right now, the time of Pentecost is occurring.
Now, right now, YOU are being born.
Now, right now, all the events of your life are taking place.
Now, right now, YOU are dying, dead, and your funeral is taking place.
Now, right now, the time of Revelation is occurring.
And so, it doesn't matter if you're a dispensationalist, a preterist, a whatever or a something else.
It gives a somewhat different perspective on life, foreknowledge, predestination, fatalism, and how you live your day today.
Not saying that I agree or disagree with this view - just saying it's another take on Christianity and God's plans that some people espouse. Good strong fervent Christians too, not drum-bangers but with a desire to educate God's people into a fuller spiritual awareness.
With God, time is an eternal NOW. Time is not a linear thing such as we know.
So that means:
Now, right now, the earth is being made into what we now know.
Now, right now, Adam is being created.
Now, right now, Adam is falling.
Now, right now, prophecies are being given about Christ coming.
Now, right now, Christ is coming.
Now, right now, Christ is being executed.
Now, right now, Christ is rising from the dead.
Now, right now, the time of Pentecost is occurring.
Now, right now, YOU are being born.
Now, right now, all the events of your life are taking place.
Now, right now, YOU are dying, dead, and your funeral is taking place.
Now, right now, the time of Revelation is occurring.
And so, it doesn't matter if you're a dispensationalist, a preterist, a whatever or a something else.
It gives a somewhat different perspective on life, foreknowledge, predestination, fatalism, and how you live your day today.
Not saying that I agree or disagree with this view - just saying it's another take on Christianity and God's plans that some people espouse. Good strong fervent Christians too, not drum-bangers but with a desire to educate God's people into a fuller spiritual awareness.
Twinky,
What an apt description of God's omnipotence, and foreknowing!
That aside, it's nice to know that we still have choices to make in life. Let us choose to do good, and not evil, and let us enjoy the rewards we are laying up for ourselves when that "time" comes.
Eccl 12:
13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear [respect] God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
Right on Steve Lortz! The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in the book of Revelation expands on the 4th Beast described in Daniel 7 which is the Roman Empire. There are only 4 beasts in Daniel 7: Lion = Babylonian Empire, Bear = Medo-Persia, Leopard = Greek Empire, 4th Beast " dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong" = Roman Empire. That is why the futurists who actually read Daniel realize that there must be a reemergence of a revived Roman empire if their theory is true...that these events are in our future. So all these theories such as a 10 nation European Union are discussed and also the theory that it's referring to a revived Holy Roman Empire ie Catholic church...a future pope as antichrist etc.
So I will discuss an alternative theory of the beasts of Daniel and Revelation. That the 4th beast of Daniel and the 7 headed, 10 horned beast of Revelation was the Roman empire from Julius Caesar to Vespasian. The 10 horns being the human rulers and the 7 heads being the supernatural rulers:
1.) Julius Caesar
2.) Augustus
3.) Tiberius
4.) Gaius (Caligula)
5.) Claudius
6.) Nero ---> "one is" of Rev. 17:9
7.) Galba ------------->
8.) Otho --------------> 3 horns pulled out Dan 7:8
9.) Vitellius --------->
10.) Vespasian
11.) Titus -----------------------------> the little eleventh horn of Daniel 7
So looking at Revelation 17:7-11: focusing on the supernatural rulers who work through the human rulers ignoring the 3 horns pulled out Galba, Otho, Vitellius. "There are 7 kings" (fallen angels).
1.) Julius
2.) Augustus
3.) Tiberius
4.) Gaius
5.) Claudius
6.) Nero ------> one is
7.) Vespasian
8.) Titus --------------------> the beast that was and is not(at the time Rev. was written) is himself also the eighth and is of the seven(or 7th?). Titus was Vespasian's son and a general, not an emperor when Rev. was written. That is why he was described as a little horn in Daniel. Ultimately what we are being shown is the fallen angel(individual beast that comes out of the bottomless pit) working through Titus in his destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Very strange language until we realize that it is describing spirits and not just humans. So this beast that comes out of the bottomless pit must have existed on earth at an earlier time and was confined(or inactivated)for a period of time. One theory of the "was" in Rev 17:11 is that the "beast" was the same spirit who worked through Antiochus IV when he sacked Jerusalem in 167BC.
Not long ago, I read A Political History of Early Christianity by Allen Brent. Among other things, he described Octavian/Augustus' transition from the republic to the empire in terms of modern political theory and language, and then described the same events in the concepts and language that the Romans actually used at the time.
Surprise! The book of Revelation turns out to be a political manifesto saying Jesus Christ, not the Imperial Caesar, is Lord.
All the talk about astronomical phenomena used in Revelation was also used in Roman politics. Disorder in the heavens indicated disorder on the earth.
The Romans believed they were living in an IRON Age (corruption and decay as in "rustbelt"), and that Octavian was going to inaugerate (thus "Augustus") a new GOLDEN age.
John the Revelator argued that Jesus Christ, not Caesar, was going to start a new age, "the age to come".
The province of Asia, which contained the churches to whom John addressed the book of Revelation, was the hotbed of emperor worship, as the cities competed for imperial favors.
Even if we think, as some do, that Revelation was written in the 90s CE, about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, it's still possible to read it as historical (the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians in 598-7 BCE, as well as the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and a possible future fall of Jerusalem). Babylon is definitely code language for Rome, a city that sets on seven hills. It is even possible that the wounding and healing of the beast was a reference to "Nero Revividus".
There is a heck of a lot more to Revelation than ANY video preacher has put together!
I'm just glad I won't be here for "round two", as it were!
SPEC
Round 2, if Mckenzie's theory is accurate, seems to be this Gog and Magog event described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. Even some futurists see Ezekiel 38-39 as the next big event on the prophetic calender...happening just before the coming great tribulation. I see the great tribulation as a past event... the 42 month or 3.5 year invasion and attack by Rome on Israel from 67-70 AD. culminating in the destruction of the Temple(Math. 24:1,2) bringing about the final end of the old covenant age and beginning of the new covenant. Also the end of satan's dominion of the gentile nations.
It's interesting that the alliances described in Ezekiel 38-39 have never been possible in the history of the world until now.
Round 2, if Mckenzie's theory is accurate, seems to be this Gog and Magog event described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. Even some futurists see Ezekiel 38-39 as the next big event on the prophetic calender...happening just before the coming great tribulation. I see the great tribulation as a past event... the 42 month or 3.5 year invasion and attack by Rome on Israel from 67-70 AD. culminating in the destruction of the Temple(Math. 24:1,2) bringing about the final end of the old covenant age and beginning of the new covenant. Also the end of satan's dominion of the gentile nations.
It's interesting that the alliances described in Ezekiel 38-39 have never been possible in the history of the world until now.
Infoabsorption:
You sound like a very deep thinker, so I ask you a question:
Do you suppose it's possible that Revelation could somehow simultaneously be referring not only to prophetic statements concerning past events, but also to similar (but not exactly identical) things which will happen in the future? (Not only in "our immediate future", but also that which is to result in the devastation of the Earth as we know it?)
Yes! I have thought of that concept and other preterists have also. I just haven't discovered any evidence for it. If someone can point it out I will definitely check it out.
Another concept that has been discussed in the prophecy community for years is the rebuilding of the Temple since Israel is now back as a nation state. I guess there is a group of orthodox Jews who have been working on that for a while. So once it is rebuilt it will be destroyed all over again. It has to be if Daniel 9 verses 26 & 27 and Daniel 12:11 are in our future. However, After reading some little known history (to the Christian community), I strongly believe that the prophecies in Daniel 9 & 12 refer to the destruction of the Temple of 70AD, not a future temple. This stuff is out there for anybody to look up, but who wants to look this stuff up unless you are a history nut like me. I'll give you an example about prophecies mentioned in the bible that are commonly explained as happening in the future but can be shown as occurring in the past from recorded history.
Look at Daniel 12:11 . After being told that the ultimate meaning of the prophecy was sealed until the time of the end (of the age), Daniel was given 2 markers for the countdown to this end. The man above the river tells Daniel that 1290 days would expire from the time the daily sacrifice was taken away and the abomination of desolation was set up(occurred), to the end of the age(the end being marked by the shattering of Daniel's people, see verse 7). The abomination of desolation mentioned in 12:11 references Daniel 9:27, the coming of the one who would make Israel desolate. ("and on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate"). Note: 1290 days after the coming of Titus to the Holy Land in Feb of 67AD the Jewish nation was shattered in early Sept. of 70AD. 45 days after the 1290 days at 1335 days a blessed period was to begin. The end point is the shattering of the Jewish nation which did end the sacrifices the Jews offered on behalf of Jews. So the 1290 days makes no sense. But there is a little known bit of history mentioned by Josephus in the Jewish War. This occurred in the summer of 66AD. It was the end of sacrifices the Jews offered on behalf of the Roman emperor. This change in the sacrifice marked the beginning of the Jewish war with Rome. It was this sacrifice that started during the time of Caligula offered on behalf of the emperor and the Roman people when the Jews loyalty was called into question when they opposed the erection of the emperor's statue in the Temple. Apparently it was a sacrifice instituted by the Roman emperor not just merely for the emperor. The primary indicator of the Jewish rebellion involved the leaders of the revolt refusing to allow any sacrifices in the Temple from gentiles. This resulted in the taking away of the daily sacrifice that was being offered for the emperor which laid the foundation of the war with Rome. The outcome of this taking away of the daily sacrifice for the Roman emperor was the coming of the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate also destroying the city and sanctuary(Daniel 9:26)ie abomination of desolation. Responding to Nero's order to crush the Jewish rebellion, Titus marched the 15th legion from Egypt up the length of the Holy Land to rendezvous with his father Vespasian on the western border of Galilee. This coming happened around Feb.67 AD as he marched a wing of the Roman army through the land of Israel. This was the abomination of desolation that Jesus warned those in Judea to flee from(Matt 24:15-24). Titus coming was the beginning of the great tribulation that resulted in the shattering of the Jewish nation 1290 days later. "On the wing of abominations" mentioned in Dan 9:27 provides another parallel to recorded history that isn't very well known. The Roman army marched with standards that had an idol called an Aquila on them. The Aquila was an eagle. Idols were called abominations by the ancient Hebrews. You can read about the Aquila here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_%28Roman%29 . The point I'm trying to make is that it can be shown from recorded history that certain events in bible prophecy have already taken place. Maybe not proven in absolute terms but there is evidence for it.
Another point I want to make is that whatever one believes concerning prophecies in the bible has nothing to do with one's salvation. I think most of us who frequent this board have given our allegiance to the only begotten Son of God. That's really what matters right.
Infoabsorption:
You sound like a very deep thinker, so I ask you a question:
Do you suppose it's possible that Revelation could somehow simultaneously be referring not only to prophetic statements concerning past events, but also to similar (but not exactly identical) things which will happen in the future? (Not only in "our immediate future", but also that which is to result in the devastation of the Earth as we know it?)
Yes! I have thought of that concept and other preterists have also. I just haven't discovered any evidence for it. If someone can point it out I will definitely check it out.
Well, then --- you may want to check out my book entitled: Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible. Perhaps you won't be truly interested in everything in the book, but within it is a very new approach to understanding some of the "hidden" meanings within the book of Revelation. I bet you would find that part very interesting.
Sorry I cannot just give you a book, as I desire to recoup what my publisher charged to produce it. (And BTW, my intention for posting on this Topic was not just to "peddle a few more books"...LOL)
But since you are interested, the best price I know of is on Amazon. Here is a link to it:
Recommended Posts
WordWolf
Either it's literal or it is not literal.
If it is literal, then Baghdad in modern Iraq will be built up as a big deal.
If it is not literal, then some other city will be seen as the center of politics and
media, and every sort of indulgence will be catered to there-and celebrated all over
mass media. Something worse than Las Vegas, Hollywood and New Orleans on their
worst days, put together.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Infoabsorption
The Babylon mentioned in Revelation is definitely not the literal city of ancient Babylon that lies in ruins in modern day Iraq. In Revelation 1:1 it talks about showing God's servants things which must shortly come to pass and that he sent and "signified" it by His angel to John. Signified means by way of symbols. So it is obviously not literal Babylon. Actually nothing in Revelation is literal. It's all symbolism. In order to figure out what the symbol Babylon is referring to we need to gather clues from other parts of the bible if possible. In Rev 18:11 it mentions that the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over Babylon's destruction because no one buys their merchandise anymore. Then it goes on to describe the merchandise. Look at 2nd Chronicles 2:11-14. The king of Tyre mentions the merchandise during a discussion of the building of the first Temple. 8 out of 10 items used in the building of the 1st Temple are included in the merchandise of harlot Babylon in Rev. 18. Revelation was written to a 1st century audience who knew the old testament much better than us generally speaking. So various allusions in Rev. to events in books such as Ezekiel and Chronicles etc... those 1st century Christians would have immediately recognized it. Look at Ezekiel 27. It describes the merchants lamenting over the fall of the pagan city Tyre. The merchandise is different but John includes allusions to the lamenting of Tyre for a reason. Mainly the commerce of Tyre. Rev 18's allusion to the commerce of Tyre thus contains an allusion to the commerce of the Temple during the 1st century. The commercialization of the Temple was one of the things that caused Jesus to become angry. John 2:13-16 "make not my Father's house an house of merchandise".
Precious metals were used throughout the Temple. Josephus, a Jewish historian, in the Jewish War, describes the precious metals used for the doors of the inner court: " Of the gates, nine were completely overlaid with gold and silver, as were the posts and lintels, but the one outside the sanctuary was of Corinthian bronze and far more valuable than those overlaid with silver plates and set in gold". In describing the dress of harlot Babylon, Rev 17:4 uses the phrase "adorned with gold"...a reference to the Temple. Rev 18:13 consists of items used in the sacrifices and offerings of the temple. The incense of the temple included cinnamon and frankincense Exod. 30:34. Wine, oil, fine flour, wheat, cattle, and sheep were all used in temple services. Rev 18:22 says the sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard anymore. Instruments and music played a big part in temple ceremonies. See 1st Chronicles 25.
In 70 AD there was a siege around Jerusalem by the Roman army under Titus that resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Look at Luke 21:20 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Matthew 24:1,2 1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
I think most of you who have read this whole reply have figured out that I'm a preterist. It took me 2 years of reading to come to this point.
Edited by InfoabsorptionLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Hello, info.
Welcome aboard.
First one's on the house.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
A preterist believes the book of Revelation describes things that have already come about, yes? What does the future hold for the preterist? [i'm not trying to pick an argument. I just don't know the position and am curious about it].
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Infoabsorption
Hi Raf, Thanks for asking about preterism. To TWIers or former TWIers like us, preterism is a completely foreign doctrine. Actually, 99.9% of Christians today have no clue what preterism is and hold to "dispensational" futurism. I was like everybody else until 2006... believing that the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation will be fulfilled in our future. I discovered preterism by accident in 2004. I was watching a History Channel program about the early Roman empire and some of the military campaigns of Julius Caesar. Being a history buff, the program piqued my interest so I jumped on the internet and looked up web sites with info about Roman history and some of the factions Rome was fighting during the 1st century. During this internet search I came across a web site about preterism. When I 1st read a description of preterism, I laughed out loud and said "bull pucky!"...and completely blew it off. About 2 weeks later I came across another web site about preterism but it was a powerpoint presentation of Matthew 24 explained from a preterist perspective. After reading that presentation, it made so much sense that I decided to dig deeper into the doctrine. Basically I read anything I could about preterism for about 2 years remaining skeptical. So here I am... now a believer.
It took me a while to understand that there are different flavors of preterism. For example, full preterists believe that all of the prophecies written in the bible have already been fulfilled. Partial preterists believe that some or most of the prophecies have already been fulfilled, but there are still some to be fulfilled in our future. Technically I'm a partial preterist, because I believe that evil will be completely eliminated at the final judgement(Rev 20:10-15) which is in our future. But most of what is described in Revelation (and everything in Daniel), I am convinced has already taken place and describes the invasion and destruction of Israel from 66-70 AD by the sea Beast which is Rome. Ultimately what is being described through symbols is that the sea Beast was the confederation of fallen angels who worked through leaders of the Roman empire. We are taught that satan still has dominion of the earth. As a preterist, I believe satan's dominion ended at 70 AD. That doesn't mean that evil is gone from the earth because humanity is still in a fallen state and also there are still fallen angels, oops I mean debbil spurts, here causing trouble who had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged...see Daniel 7:11-12. However, the debbil spurts running Rome were cast into the lake of fire(also a symbol) at 70 AD. The way the language reads it seems there is an individual beast who was the prince or chief fallen angel over all the other fallen angels who were running Rome pre-70 AD. So satan's dominion ended at 70 AD and he was put into prison. That also could be symbolic and not literal. In Rev. 20:3 it describes satan being cast into the bottomless pit that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. So it's possible that satan wasn't literally removed from the earth at 70AD but just in terms of his ability to deceive the nations. If you look at history post 70 AD, Christianity eventually flourished although it took a few hundred years and plenty of resistance. So getting to your question about what the future holds... I agree with Duncan McKenzie that we are currently in the 1000 years which isn't a literal 1000 years but symbolic for a very long period of time... so far 1900 and some odd years. The 1000 years started at 70AD with the end of the old covenant when the temple was destroyed during the great tribulation(Matt 24:2) and thus began the new covenant. There is some speculation that we could now be in the time where satan has been released to deceive the nations again. I know to some of you this is the craziest stuff you ever read. I think what changed my thinking to the preterist camp is the fact that I now take very little in Daniel and Revelation literally. Also there are anomalies in various prophetic passages such as Luke 21:5,6 that talks about not one stone of the temple that shall not be thrown down. Then further down the chapter there is Luke 21:20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." That is like a punch in the face : 70AD!!!70 AD!!!70AD!!! Did that not happen in 70AD? Do we know history anymore? Look at Daniel 12:1 12 "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." The angel is telling Daniel thy people will be delivered(the ones written in the book) etc. Who is "thy people"? "Thy people" is Daniel's people Israel. Then Daniel asks the angel: "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" Then the man clothed in linen said: "time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." The power of the holy people(Israel), was scattered/shattered in 70 AD ! The "he" being the king of the north, who was Titus, the Roman general who led the attack on Jerusalem, but "he" was ultimately the fallen angel working through Titus. The initial invasion of Rome to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD took about 42 months(Rev 13:5) or 3.5 years. Look at Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled in 1948? There are other anomalies which I will discuss later, but my fingers need a rest right now. I believe Duncan Mckenzie has bible prophecy put together like no else although I don't agree with everything he proposes. I highly recommend reading his material. There are many articles to read here: http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/mckenzie-duncan.html Go ahead and ask more questions if you like. I usually have time to reply on weekends. Peace brothers and sisters.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Infoabsorption
I probably should have mentioned during my previous post that I do believe there will be a second resurrection at the end of the 1000 years. The 1st resurrection/gathering occurring at 70 AD which included Israel's dead (pre-70AD) and the 1st century(pre-70AD) Christian's who stayed faithful to the end. Some were still alive: "Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." Some were martyred: Rev 20:4" and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It doesn't mention a second gathering in Revelation because that is probably the end of human history on this earth as we know it, shortly after the Gog and Magog event.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
teachmevp
I have been watching all kinds of teachings about this book of revelation thing coming upon us soon. I have learned that as long as the body of Christ is still on the earth, none of that book of revelation is going to start. The body of Christ is not the subject of that book of revelation, nor can it be. Thanks for everyone's input on that book of revelation, I am starting to see that book a lot more clearer. The body of Christ has to be off the earth, what are your thoughts on this body being in the way of that book of revelation?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I think a precedent was set when Lot had to leave Sodom before its sins caught up with it.
"We can't do anything until you leave."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
spectrum49
My take on this is that most preterists are merely lured into supposing that all prophecy has been fulfilled by comparing events in the book of Revelation with old and new testament records to find similarities. Some of today's prognosticators go further than Scripture itself, while exploring all the possibilities that seem to exist between Revelation and events even beyond the time when all Biblical records were finally written down - by also taking into account events which have happened since 100 AD or so - even until now!
It's not difficult to find such things within the Bible, for this concept does exist and is indeed valid. But the truth about the events written in the OT is that they were indeed "shadows of things to come". It's a true saying that history tends to repeat itself.
That which will occur during the time of the book of Revelation will be as a mirror image, paralleling that which has already happened in times past. Though these events will merely be a reflection of those same types of things, they will not correspond with those similar records in every detail. In reality though, many things will actually become much worse in scope!
For instance, we have yet to record any hailstones that ever weighed a "talent" (See Rev 16:21), which - in our English system of measuring - is 50 pounds! :o/> (Even the largest one on record to-date only weighed in at 2.25 pounds.)
Not only does the book of Revelation have references to former and future things, but it also contains many things which are of value to us during our present time as well! Therefore, in its true light it is seen as "eternal truth" which is good for all time - the past, the present, and the future!
However, the book of Revelation was not written concerning these former or future events themselves. In truth, those were merely written as examples for us that we may learn something by! When we approach that book seeking details on how to apply godly principles, then we will have something which will help us excel in life while we're here upon Earth!
The simple truth we can glean from studying the book of Revelation is not about what people did in the past, or what some will be doing in the future. It's really about what we desire to accomplish for ourselves today!
Spec :)/>
Edited by spectrum49Link to comment
Share on other sites
Infoabsorption
Daniel and Revelation have so much symbolic and figurative language that it is difficult to interpret what God was/is revealing to us. In some verses there is so much gray area that people with different subjective viewpoints will come up with very different meanings. It is like a giant word puzzle and we're just trying to fit the pieces together. But I do believe it is possible to fit the pieces together.
I mentioned in a previous post that I would discuss various anomalies in Daniel and Revelation. Anomaly meaning a deviation from the common rule, arrangement, explanation etc.
The anomaly I will discuss in this post occurs in Revelation 22. In fact this is the anomaly that sealed the deal for me regarding preterism. Look at Revelation 22:6:
"Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place."
Notice the phrase "shortly take place". To me there is no gray area there. Pretty straightforward.
Another anomaly is Revelation 22:10:
"And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand."
To me "time is at hand" means around the corner or near. Although I've seen "time is at hand" explained as meaning "imminent" which is thus explained as could happen at any time even thousands of years into the future. But connecting Rev 22:10 with 22:6 I'm guessing that "time is at hand" means a short period of time.
There is an interesting parallel of Rev. 22:10 to Daniel 12:9 "And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
The angel told Daniel that the prophecy he was given would not occur in his lifetime. The figurative phrase "words are closed up and sealed" is used. Notice Daniel 12:13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”
But in Revelation 22:10 it says "Do not seal the words of the prophecy" ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
Not long ago, I read A Political History of Early Christianity by Allen Brent. Among other things, he described Octavian/Augustus' transition from the republic to the empire in terms of modern political theory and language, and then described the same events in the concepts and language that the Romans actually used at the time.
Surprise! The book of Revelation turns out to be a political manifesto saying Jesus Christ, not the Imperial Caesar, is Lord.
All the talk about astronomical phenomena used in Revelation was also used in Roman politics. Disorder in the heavens indicated disorder on the earth.
The Romans believed they were living in an IRON Age (corruption and decay as in "rustbelt"), and that Octavian was going to inaugerate (thus "Augustus") a new GOLDEN age.
John the Revelator argued that Jesus Christ, not Caesar, was going to start a new age, "the age to come".
The province of Asia, which contained the churches to whom John addressed the book of Revelation, was the hotbed of emperor worship, as the cities competed for imperial favors.
Even if we think, as some do, that Revelation was written in the 90s CE, about 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, it's still possible to read it as historical (the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians in 598-7 BCE, as well as the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE and a possible future fall of Jerusalem). Babylon is definitely code language for Rome, a city that sets on seven hills. It is even possible that the wounding and healing of the beast was a reference to "Nero Revividus".
There is a heck of a lot more to Revelation than ANY video preacher has put together!
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
With God, time is an eternal NOW. Time is not a linear thing such as we know.
So that means:
Now, right now, the earth is being made into what we now know.
Now, right now, Adam is being created.
Now, right now, Adam is falling.
Now, right now, prophecies are being given about Christ coming.
Now, right now, Christ is coming.
Now, right now, Christ is being executed.
Now, right now, Christ is rising from the dead.
Now, right now, the time of Pentecost is occurring.
Now, right now, YOU are being born.
Now, right now, all the events of your life are taking place.
Now, right now, YOU are dying, dead, and your funeral is taking place.
Now, right now, the time of Revelation is occurring.
And so, it doesn't matter if you're a dispensationalist, a preterist, a whatever or a something else.
It gives a somewhat different perspective on life, foreknowledge, predestination, fatalism, and how you live your day today.
Not saying that I agree or disagree with this view - just saying it's another take on Christianity and God's plans that some people espouse. Good strong fervent Christians too, not drum-bangers but with a desire to educate God's people into a fuller spiritual awareness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
spectrum49
Twinky,
What an apt description of God's omnipotence, and foreknowing!
That aside, it's nice to know that we still have choices to make in life. Let us choose to do good, and not evil, and let us enjoy the rewards we are laying up for ourselves when that "time" comes.
Eccl 12:
13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear [respect] God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."
Spec :)/>
Edited by spectrum49Link to comment
Share on other sites
Infoabsorption
Right on Steve Lortz! The beast with 7 heads and 10 horns in the book of Revelation expands on the 4th Beast described in Daniel 7 which is the Roman Empire. There are only 4 beasts in Daniel 7: Lion = Babylonian Empire, Bear = Medo-Persia, Leopard = Greek Empire, 4th Beast " dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong" = Roman Empire. That is why the futurists who actually read Daniel realize that there must be a reemergence of a revived Roman empire if their theory is true...that these events are in our future. So all these theories such as a 10 nation European Union are discussed and also the theory that it's referring to a revived Holy Roman Empire ie Catholic church...a future pope as antichrist etc.
So I will discuss an alternative theory of the beasts of Daniel and Revelation. That the 4th beast of Daniel and the 7 headed, 10 horned beast of Revelation was the Roman empire from Julius Caesar to Vespasian. The 10 horns being the human rulers and the 7 heads being the supernatural rulers:
1.) Julius Caesar
2.) Augustus
3.) Tiberius
4.) Gaius (Caligula)
5.) Claudius
6.) Nero ---> "one is" of Rev. 17:9
7.) Galba ------------->
8.) Otho --------------> 3 horns pulled out Dan 7:8
9.) Vitellius --------->
10.) Vespasian
11.) Titus -----------------------------> the little eleventh horn of Daniel 7
So looking at Revelation 17:7-11: focusing on the supernatural rulers who work through the human rulers ignoring the 3 horns pulled out Galba, Otho, Vitellius. "There are 7 kings" (fallen angels).
1.) Julius
2.) Augustus
3.) Tiberius
4.) Gaius
5.) Claudius
6.) Nero ------> one is
7.) Vespasian
8.) Titus --------------------> the beast that was and is not(at the time Rev. was written) is himself also the eighth and is of the seven(or 7th?). Titus was Vespasian's son and a general, not an emperor when Rev. was written. That is why he was described as a little horn in Daniel. Ultimately what we are being shown is the fallen angel(individual beast that comes out of the bottomless pit) working through Titus in his destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Very strange language until we realize that it is describing spirits and not just humans. So this beast that comes out of the bottomless pit must have existed on earth at an earlier time and was confined(or inactivated)for a period of time. One theory of the "was" in Rev 17:11 is that the "beast" was the same spirit who worked through Antiochus IV when he sacked Jerusalem in 167BC.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
spectrum49
Very interesting "INFO-ABSORPTION".
I'm just glad I won't be here for "round two", as it were!
SPEC
Edited by spectrum49Link to comment
Share on other sites
Infoabsorption
Round 2, if Mckenzie's theory is accurate, seems to be this Gog and Magog event described in Ezekiel 38-39 and Revelation 20. Even some futurists see Ezekiel 38-39 as the next big event on the prophetic calender...happening just before the coming great tribulation. I see the great tribulation as a past event... the 42 month or 3.5 year invasion and attack by Rome on Israel from 67-70 AD. culminating in the destruction of the Temple(Math. 24:1,2) bringing about the final end of the old covenant age and beginning of the new covenant. Also the end of satan's dominion of the gentile nations.
It's interesting that the alliances described in Ezekiel 38-39 have never been possible in the history of the world until now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
spectrum49
Infoabsorption:
You sound like a very deep thinker, so I ask you a question:
Do you suppose it's possible that Revelation could somehow simultaneously be referring not only to prophetic statements concerning past events, but also to similar (but not exactly identical) things which will happen in the future? (Not only in "our immediate future", but also that which is to result in the devastation of the Earth as we know it?)
Spec
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Infoabsorption
Yes! I have thought of that concept and other preterists have also. I just haven't discovered any evidence for it. If someone can point it out I will definitely check it out.
Another concept that has been discussed in the prophecy community for years is the rebuilding of the Temple since Israel is now back as a nation state. I guess there is a group of orthodox Jews who have been working on that for a while. So once it is rebuilt it will be destroyed all over again. It has to be if Daniel 9 verses 26 & 27 and Daniel 12:11 are in our future. However, After reading some little known history (to the Christian community), I strongly believe that the prophecies in Daniel 9 & 12 refer to the destruction of the Temple of 70AD, not a future temple. This stuff is out there for anybody to look up, but who wants to look this stuff up unless you are a history nut like me. I'll give you an example about prophecies mentioned in the bible that are commonly explained as happening in the future but can be shown as occurring in the past from recorded history.
Look at Daniel 12:11 . After being told that the ultimate meaning of the prophecy was sealed until the time of the end (of the age), Daniel was given 2 markers for the countdown to this end. The man above the river tells Daniel that 1290 days would expire from the time the daily sacrifice was taken away and the abomination of desolation was set up(occurred), to the end of the age(the end being marked by the shattering of Daniel's people, see verse 7). The abomination of desolation mentioned in 12:11 references Daniel 9:27, the coming of the one who would make Israel desolate. ("and on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate"). Note: 1290 days after the coming of Titus to the Holy Land in Feb of 67AD the Jewish nation was shattered in early Sept. of 70AD. 45 days after the 1290 days at 1335 days a blessed period was to begin. The end point is the shattering of the Jewish nation which did end the sacrifices the Jews offered on behalf of Jews. So the 1290 days makes no sense. But there is a little known bit of history mentioned by Josephus in the Jewish War. This occurred in the summer of 66AD. It was the end of sacrifices the Jews offered on behalf of the Roman emperor. This change in the sacrifice marked the beginning of the Jewish war with Rome. It was this sacrifice that started during the time of Caligula offered on behalf of the emperor and the Roman people when the Jews loyalty was called into question when they opposed the erection of the emperor's statue in the Temple. Apparently it was a sacrifice instituted by the Roman emperor not just merely for the emperor. The primary indicator of the Jewish rebellion involved the leaders of the revolt refusing to allow any sacrifices in the Temple from gentiles. This resulted in the taking away of the daily sacrifice that was being offered for the emperor which laid the foundation of the war with Rome. The outcome of this taking away of the daily sacrifice for the Roman emperor was the coming of the one who would make the Jewish nation desolate also destroying the city and sanctuary(Daniel 9:26)ie abomination of desolation. Responding to Nero's order to crush the Jewish rebellion, Titus marched the 15th legion from Egypt up the length of the Holy Land to rendezvous with his father Vespasian on the western border of Galilee. This coming happened around Feb.67 AD as he marched a wing of the Roman army through the land of Israel. This was the abomination of desolation that Jesus warned those in Judea to flee from(Matt 24:15-24). Titus coming was the beginning of the great tribulation that resulted in the shattering of the Jewish nation 1290 days later. "On the wing of abominations" mentioned in Dan 9:27 provides another parallel to recorded history that isn't very well known. The Roman army marched with standards that had an idol called an Aquila on them. The Aquila was an eagle. Idols were called abominations by the ancient Hebrews. You can read about the Aquila here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_%28Roman%29 . The point I'm trying to make is that it can be shown from recorded history that certain events in bible prophecy have already taken place. Maybe not proven in absolute terms but there is evidence for it.
Another point I want to make is that whatever one believes concerning prophecies in the bible has nothing to do with one's salvation. I think most of us who frequent this board have given our allegiance to the only begotten Son of God. That's really what matters right.
Edited by InfoabsorptionLink to comment
Share on other sites
spectrum49
Well, then --- you may want to check out my book entitled: Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible. Perhaps you won't be truly interested in everything in the book, but within it is a very new approach to understanding some of the "hidden" meanings within the book of Revelation. I bet you would find that part very interesting.
Sorry I cannot just give you a book, as I desire to recoup what my publisher charged to produce it. (And BTW, my intention for posting on this Topic was not just to "peddle a few more books"...LOL)
But since you are interested, the best price I know of is on Amazon. Here is a link to it:
My link
I think there is only one left right now, so if you don't get it --- i think more are on the way soon.
Spec
Edited by spectrum49Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.