This sounds more like an invitation to a political debate than a discussion of doctrinal matters.
Hmm, maybe, but I really don't want to debate it; I just want to know. Doctrinally, people take it as a sign of this or that. That would be interesting to me, but, really, if no one even knows if that's actually Israel over there, who cares what it means doctrinally? Doctrinally, born again Jews & not born again Jews think we should "pray for the peace of Israel." People see it as a sign of the coming end or the coming Messiah. People attach all kinds of doctrinal significance to it. But is that even really Israel over there? I'll post it anywhere the question belongs, but I really just want to know if anyone knows. Awful lot of hubbub going on both politically & doctrinally because it is assumed THAT'S Israel - I mean, if it is not even Israel.
It is considered a significant sign biblically by many that the "chosen" people have reunited in their own nation, but have they? Are the people there really the children of Israel. Can they trace their lineage back to biblical Israel? I can't. Can you? Can anyone do that these days? Do any of you know the answer to that?
Thanks you,
Tom
I can't personally trace my lineage back to Israel, but my Grandmother said she could, right down to the tribe. It is actually important for Jewish people to know what tribe they come from, as there are genenetic disorders that are specific to the tribe of Benjamin.
Hmm, maybe, but I really don't want to debate it; I just want to know. Doctrinally, people take it as a sign of this or that. That would be interesting to me, but, really, if no one even knows if that's actually Israel over there, who cares what it means doctrinally? Doctrinally, born again Jews & not born again Jews think we should "pray for the peace of Israel." People see it as a sign of the coming end or the coming Messiah. People attach all kinds of doctrinal significance to it. But is that even really Israel over there? I'll post it anywhere the question belongs, but I really just want to know if anyone knows. Awful lot of hubbub going on both politically & doctrinally because it is assumed THAT'S Israel - I mean, if it is not even Israel.
As a Jewish person, the significance of Israel comes down to one thing and one thing only. It is not related at all to the Messiah, but to having a nation . . . a home where one could theoretically live without fear of persecution. Sadly, at various points in history during this past century I suspect some of the Jews have been the persecutors instead of the persecuted. :(
In terms of what Israel means doctrinally, that will vary greatly from denomination to denomination. Even the Jews don't have an agreement on that doctrinal issue.
Interesting, don't you think, that the "chosen ones" - the faithful remnant - comprising the tribes of Judah and Benjamin inhabited the area which became known simply as "Judah."
The breakaway tribes, the apostates, those who mingled with the people of the land - the ten northern tribes - they called themselves "Israel."
So, those people who now inhabit the land and claim Jerusalem as their capital city - are they announcing their apostacy to the world?
Why not call the land Judah if it is inhabited by Jews?
I don't see many of them calling themselves Gaddites or Dannites or Manasseh-ites. Nor do you see the members of those other tribes claiming their own homeland. The logical thought is that the other tribes are now masquerading as "Arabs" in general and Palestinians in particular. Could they trace their bloodlines back?
I honestly doubt any of them could really trace their bloodlines back to any of the 12 tribes. I am sure, however, they could trace back reasonably clearly over quite a number of generations, maybe 7 or 8.
I can't personally trace my lineage back to Israel, but my Grandmother said she could, right down to the tribe. It is actually important for Jewish people to know what tribe they come from, as there are genenetic disorders that are specific to the tribe of Benjamin.
As a Jewish person, the significance of Israel comes down to one thing and one thing only. It is not related at all to the Messiah, but to having a nation . . . a home where one could theoretically live without fear of persecution. Sadly, at various points in history during this past century I suspect some of the Jews have been the persecutors instead of the persecuted. :(/>
In terms of what Israel means doctrinally, that will vary greatly from denomination to denomination. Even the Jews don't have an agreement on that doctrinal issue.
Thanks for the reply, Abigail. Why is it that your grandmother can trace her lineage, but you can't? Is it because lineage is counted patriarchal-wise, as we were taught in TWI? And your grandmother is your maternal grandmother? Do the genetic disorders specific to the tribe of Benjamin only transmit through the paternal lines?
Also wondering, why do you need a nation to belong to? Isn't the USA or whatever nation enough? Of all immigrant groups, Jews have maintained their heritage & prospered more than most in the US.
Just wondering, you don't have to get into it, but you brought it up, where have the Jews been the persecutors?
Interesting, don't you think, that the "chosen ones" - the faithful remnant - comprising the tribes of Judah and Benjamin inhabited the area which became known simply as "Judah."
The breakaway tribes, the apostates, those who mingled with the people of the land - the ten northern tribes - they called themselves "Israel."
So, those people who now inhabit the land and claim Jerusalem as their capital city - are they announcing their apostacy to the world?
Why not call the land Judah if it is inhabited by Jews?
I don't see many of them calling themselves Gaddites or Dannites or Manasseh-ites. Nor do you see the members of those other tribes claiming their own homeland. The logical thought is that the other tribes are now masquerading as "Arabs" in general and Palestinians in particular. Could they trace their bloodlines back?
I honestly doubt any of them could really trace their bloodlines back to any of the 12 tribes. I am sure, however, they could trace back reasonably clearly over quite a number of generations, maybe 7 or 8.
Sounds like you have legitimate concerns, but you lost me. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could have followed you, but I didn't.
It is considered a significant sign biblically by many that the "chosen" people have reunited in their own nation, but have they? Are the people there really the children of Israel. Can they trace their lineage back to biblical Israel? I can't. Can you? Can anyone do that these days? Do any of you know the answer to that?
Sounds like a good question to me.. I have never seen/heard of anyone with actual documentation or could actually list every generation going back to the tribes.. Would be cool to see. I've heard a select few say they could, but never any list or documentation.. I don't care about "proving" the list, I'd just like to see that long a list! Easy to fake I guess, but I'm easy to please!
But I can't say I've heard of any.. Most people I know in the genealogical circles are lucky to go back as far as the 1500s.. And even that's rare even with Catholic memberships. Mine never got out of the 1800s without much speculation. But I am convinced I do come from this guy named Noah... Who came from Adam.. Just a hunch my brothers and sisters, just a hunch.. (If I'm wrong, at the least it could have been George of the Jungle we all came from, but I haven't seen anyone list that far either)
Thanks for the reply, Abigail. Why is it that your grandmother can trace her lineage, but you can't? Is it because lineage is counted patriarchal-wise, as we were taught in TWI? And your grandmother is your maternal grandmother? Do the genetic disorders specific to the tribe of Benjamin only transmit through the paternal lines?
Hi Tom, always good to converse with you. It may be that I could trace the lineage back if I tried, but thus far I haven't tried to go back that far. Similarly, I don't know how my maternal grandmother was able to do it and she is no longer with us for me to ask. I only recall her telling me what tribe I stem from on her side of the family.
But, if I were to speculate I coud take a couple of pretty solid educated guesses. One would simply be through oral histories from generation to generation within the family. The other would be through Synagogue documents. When a Jew is born and given their Hebrew name, documentation of the birth, name, and family history are kept by the Synagogue. I have such a naming certificate, that my grandmother gave to me many years ago. It doesn't trace my lineage all the way back, but I would imagine if I had a copy of my grandmothers, and then my great grandmothers, etc. etc. that I could trace it back eventually.
I am not sure if the genetic disorder from the tribe of Benjamin is passed by the father, mother or both. Again, I haven't researched it in depth. But, I have had several physicians ask me (in my younger years when I was starting a family) if I knew what tribe I was from, so they could determine if they needed to test me for it. I'm sure there is information about it on-line.
Is the lineage counted patricarchal-wise? Well, in some respects the Torah would lead us to believe so, but the lineage is also counted through the mother. For instance, if a child is born from a mixed marriage, it is only considered Jewish if the mother is Jewish. The rationale being that (at least prior to DNA testing) one could be certain of who a child's mother was, but paternity could not be verified. Of course, some of the more ultra orthodox sects would argue a child born of a mixed marriage is not truly Jewish regardless of which parent is Jewish. Other ultra orthodox sects would argue that even a chld from a Christian, Muslem, or any other background could potentially be Jewish, in that so many Jews were forced to convert throughout history.
Also wondering, why do you need a nation to belong to? Isn't the USA or whatever nation enough? Of all immigrant groups, Jews have maintained their heritage & prospered more than most in the US.
There were, and still are, Jewish people who would agree with you. There are others who would strongly disagree. A large majority of Jewish people in the USA assimilated and gave up their heritage. And while some prospered, others did not. I am from such a family. On my father's side they were wealthy, secular Jews. On my mother's side, they were poor religious Jews - my great grandfather was a bootlegger for the Purple Gang in Detroit. The two did not often mingle and such marriages as my parents had were highly frowned upon. By my parent's generation, and to some extent even my grandmother's generation, many of the traditions were given up in favor of assimilation.
Although Jewish people were certainly welcome to this country, like other immigrants who came here, they were also often harassed for being different/strange. Even in my mother's generation (as well as my own) we were not so welcome. My parents were harrassed throughout their childhood for being Jewish. I have cousins who to this very day will not wear a Star of David in public, for fear of being identified as a Jew and being harassed. The mother of one of my best friends used to call me "that dirty Jew girl" and she couldn't stand me, because I was not Christian. I was teased a lot as a young child as well. And the irony was that my parents did not practice Judaism. We celebrated Christmas and Easter like everyone else and I even went to Catechism as a child.
In the present day, there are a lot of Jewish people who are returning to their family traditions. They don't want to see the traditions lost. I am one of those, althought I am not and never will be orthodox.
Loss of tradition though assimilation is one reason many Jewish people want a nation of their own. But perhaps even more than that is the risk and fear that history could repeat itself. Hitler was far from the first to persecute and kill Jewish people. Irland was once a second home to many Jewish people, and then it wasn't. Spain was once a second home to many Jewish people, and then it wasn't. Poland, Hungary, Lithuania and so on it went.
So, you have many Jewish people who want a nation of their own. I would be counted among them, altough I have not yet ever been to Israel. I have done a lot of reading on it and would like to go some day. I do have family members who have made their home there.
Conversely, there are other Jewish people who were and are opposed to a Jewish Nation (or at least the way Israel as we know it today came about). They feel that when God calls us back to Israel, He will do so without Jewish people having to "force His hand" through politics and war.
It can all get very complicated. There are many, many divisions among the Jewish people. The wealthier secular/political Jewish people v the poorer more orthodox Jewish people. The various sects and how they apply the laws, etc. etc. And then there are the things that bind us together despite our differences - - the Sabbath Candles on Friday nights, Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur. We argue, we fight, we disagree, and yet we are still one people. :)
Just wondering, you don't have to get into it, but you brought it up, where have the Jews been the persecutors?
Well, just going through the Torah alone, there were many instances where the Jewish people took over a land and killed off or enslaved the inhabitants. And then there is the conflict in our century between the Palestinians and the Jewish people. While I am most certainly in favor of a Jewish nation, I do take issue with some of the methods that were and are used to get us there.
Intially the Palestinian people welcomed the Jewish people and they lived side by side fairly peacefully. Following World War II and the Balfore (spelling) Decree, the Palestinians became second class citizens who were often forcefully removed from their homes, harrassed, beaten up, etc. etc.
While they weren't mass murdered the way the Jewish people in Europe were. . . still, one would think that the experience of World War II would have left the Jewish people immigrating to Palestine/Israel more empathetic towards the plight of the Palestinians who were living there.
BTW, Jewish people (well most of us) dont' see ourselves as "God's chosen people" in the way that some Christians do. We are taught that all humans are God's children, regardless of religion or nationality. The only thing that distinguishes Jewish people from non-Jewish people is that the Jewish people made a committment to God at Mt. Sinai to obey additional commandments that the rest of the people are not subject to.
Many Jewish people, including myself, believe it is our duty to make our homes and communities a better place to be. A peaceful, loving place to be. To give back to the community we live in. Many Christians believe likewise, yes? So in the end, our rituals may be different, but our goals perhaps are not.
Interesting, don't you think, that the "chosen ones" - the faithful remnant - comprising the tribes of Judah and Benjamin inhabited the area which became known simply as "Judah."
The breakaway tribes, the apostates, those who mingled with the people of the land - the ten northern tribes - they called themselves "Israel."
So, those people who now inhabit the land and claim Jerusalem as their capital city - are they announcing their apostacy to the world?
Why not call the land Judah if it is inhabited by Jews?
Before thre were Jews there were Israelites and then Hebrews. It was not God who broke up the nation of Israel, it was man who did that. All "Jews" are of Israel. All "Jews" are of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
I would suspect, based on your question, that you read the Old Testament from the perspective of a Christian and not the perspective of a Jewish person. The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament. It primarily contains the early history of humanity, and more importantly the commandments of God. The rest of the Old Testament is historical. Just because something occured, does not mean God willed it to be so. Just because the Jewish nation was (and still is) divided, does not mean God willed it to be so. Nor does it mean Jewish people will it to be so.
Whether one is from the tribe of Judah or the tribe of Dan - we are all still of Abrham, Isaac, and Jacob and though in modern venacular we may call ourselves Jews, we are in truth Israelites.
From what I get of this.. the ancestry is just as important on the matriarchal side.. interesting. Even in Acts.. wasn't Timothy regarded as the son of a Jewess. Even though the father was a Greek..
From what I get of this.. the ancestry is just as important on the matriarchal side.. interesting. Even in Acts.. wasn't Timothy regarded as the son of a Jewess. Even though the father was a Greek..
Possibly because his mother was a Christian believer with honorable biblical mention.
From what I get of this.. the ancestry is just as important on the matriarchal side.. interesting. Even in Acts.. wasn't Timothy regarded as the son of a Jewess. Even though the father was a Greek..
Exactly, Ham. Abraham fathered children by two different women. Yet, only through one of those women came the nation of Israel.
Something else to consider: Borders change constantly. Just in our lifetimes, think how many countries have changed their geographic boundaries. The town where my grandfather was born still exists but, it's now part of a country other than the one in which he was born.
It is considered a significant sign biblically by many that the "chosen" people have reunited in their own nation, but have they? Are the people there really the children of Israel. Can they trace their lineage back to biblical Israel? I can't. Can you? Can anyone do that these days? Do any of you know the answer to that?
Thanks you,
Tom
Coming back to your initial question. :)/>/>/> Since joining this discussion I began googling Jewish Genetic Disorders. It appears that science has come a long ways since I was first asked what tribe I come from and a LOT of scientific data is available.
So, after researching this - "Are the people there really the children of Israel. Can they traice their lineage back to biblical Israel?" Yes, yes they can.
As a ethnic group/nationality - Jews are broken down into two basic subgroups (there are other subgroups as well, but for the purpose of this discussion we'll stick with the two that have been most studied). There are the Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe and there are the Sephardic Jews of Spain and the mediterranean.
The vast majority of DNA studies have been performed on Ashkenazi Jews, in part because the majority of Jewish Genetic disorders are more prevelant amoung them. One of the primary reasons for this has to do with the fact that Sephardic Jews assimilated and intermarried earlier, and more frequently than Ashkenazi Jews. Sephardic Jews were forced to convert to Christianity and assimilate.
Ashkenazi Jews, by and large, only married within their own nationality/culture up until my mother's generation. As a result for the most part the DNA is more "pure" or perhaps better put, has not been mingled with other ethnic groups.
There are a number of genetic disorders that occur at significantly higher rate among Ashkenazi Jews than among any other nationality. The one I was asked about was Tay Sach's disease, but there are a number of others as well. These disorders can occur as fequently as 1 in 100 amoung Ashkenazi Jews - as opposed to 1 in 3,500 or so in other nationalities.
In the process of studying these genetic disorders, scientists have traced the Ashkenazi Jewish line back to the middle east. They believe that what happened was after the fall of the second temple a "somewhat smaller" group of Jews migrated to Turkey, then Iraq, and eventually to Eastern Europe. They did not assimilate ino the various societies, but instead remained relatively isolated and continued to only marry within their nationality.
Now, back to Isreael. The vast majority of Jews who immigrated to Israel were Ashkenazi Jews, fleeing before, during, and after WW2. A large number of American Jews are also of Ashkenazi descent.
So yes, I believe the Jews in Israel are of the same bloodline as the Jews of Biblical days.
Edit to fix the many typos - OY, must drink more coffee!!
The forefathers of the Ashkenazi community began to settle in parts of Europe during the Roman Empire, particularly after the Romans conquered Jerusalem in AD 70. Ashkenazis now make up more than 80 percent of world Jewry. They moved to Spain, France, Italy and other Mediterranean basin countries, but spread over the centuries to the Rhineland in Germany, Poland and Russia. Frequent persecution kept their numbers small. Modern Ashkenazi Jews are believed to descend from about 1,500 Jewish families dating back to the 14th century. But Darvasi said the forefathers of today's Ashkenazis came from an even smaller gene pool. Darvasi said "maybe 500 families were really the source of the total (Ashkenazi) population today...probably in the order of 100 independent chromosomes", because they enjoyed better nutrition and had lower infant mortality rates than less affluent Jews.
"Some disease mutations unusually common in Ashkenazi Jews... include Tay-Sachs disease and some forms of breast cancer, high cholesterol and hemophilia. ... It just happened that those who founded the Ashkenazi Jewish population had disease mutations and passed them along to their children. Because Ashkenazi Jews tend to marry within their own population, those mutations remained common.... He [Dr. Neil Risch of Stanford University Medical Center, working with colleagues] found three points in time when mutations entered the population. One mutation has been in the Jewish population for 120 generations - around the time that the Jewish people formed a distinct population in the Middle East. This mutation causes a type of hemophilia called Factor 11 deficiency type II. The majority of the mutations - including all of the mutations in lysosomal storage genes - entered the population when the Ashkenazi Jews formed a coherent group about 50 generations ago. The final mutations cropped up in the Lithuanian Ashkenazi Jews about 12 generations ago."
[bTW, Jewish people (well most of us) dont' see ourselves as "God's chosen people" in the way that some Christians do. We are taught that all humans are God's children, regardless of religion or nationality. The only thing that distinguishes Jewish people from non-Jewish people is that the Jewish people made a committment to God at Mt. Sinai to obey additional commandments that the rest of the people are not subject to.
Wow, lot of stuff here & throughout. No offense intended, but this sounds like typical OT Jews to me :). God blesses them through no righteous merit on their part, & somehow it becomes a matter of THEY'RE doing or not doing. I don't think historically that worked too well for them. Paul called it, "going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Really, no offense meant, Abigail; I just got a smile out of that one. Gotta love em.
Beautiful philanthropic philosophy toward all the world you mentioned though. I've seen that as part and parcel of their present day culture in many (figured I'd better say something nice).
"So yes, I believe the Jews in Israel are of the same bloodline as the Jews of Biblical days."
The other would be through Synagogue documents. When a Jew is born and given their Hebrew name, documentation of the birth, name, and family history are kept by the Synagogue.
Wow, thanks. I bought Dragon Natural Speaking 12 recently, & they gave me a free version of Family Tree software with it. It came with a brief period of free use of ancestry.com resources, but I was too busy to use them at the time, & it's harder to put together a lineage without them.
I asked my dad (Jewish ancestry) where he was born, but all he knows is Brooklyn. I was looking at his birth certificate today (for unrelated cause). I'll have to take another look (safety deposit box), but it was pretty hard to read. I might have to send for another one. I hope I can contact a nearby Synagogue & be able to trace that document. That would be great.
Thanks for sharing all this great stuff & heart. I always love conversing with you also.
Wow, lot of stuff here & throughout. No offense intended, but this sounds like typical OT Jews to me :)/>. God blesses them through no righteous merit on their part, & somehow it becomes a matter of THEY'RE doing or not doing. I don't think historically that worked too well for them. Paul called it, "going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Really, no offense meant, Abigail; I just got a smile out of that one. Gotta love em.
Beautiful philanthropic philosophy toward all the world you mentioned though. I've seen that as part and parcel of their present day culture in many (figured I'd better say something nice).
"So yes, I believe the Jews in Israel are of the same bloodline as the Jews of Biblical days."
Very cool, thanks for the homework & answer.
No offense taken, Tom. I most certainly cannot speak for all Jews, but from my perspective it isn't an issue of righteousness or lack thereof. The focus in Judaism isn't the afterlife - it isn't about heaven or hell. In fact, Judaism doesn't believe in the concept of hell and there is much debate among Jewish people regarding the concept of heaven as well. :) Perhaps, ask your dad to explain the Days of Awe and Yom Kippur to you. Those are two of the most important Jewish holy days and understanding them might give you a good understanding of the Jewish perspective on life and death.
The focus, at least from my perspective, is simply on the here and now. How to live the life I have been given. Fairly down to earth and practicAL. But then, I am not orthodox either. Like many American Jews I pick and choose. I observe those things that make sense to me. I focus on the ethics, not the rituals. I do observe those rituals that speak to my heart, but I don't worry about those that do not make sense to me or just plain do not speak to me.
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Raf
Throughout history, whenever man has answered the call to persecute the Jews, identifying them was never a problem.
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Tom
So, should we take the word of persecutors, "called" by whom, the author of lies?
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waysider
This sounds more like an invitation to a political debate than a discussion of doctrinal matters.
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Tom
Hmm, maybe, but I really don't want to debate it; I just want to know. Doctrinally, people take it as a sign of this or that. That would be interesting to me, but, really, if no one even knows if that's actually Israel over there, who cares what it means doctrinally? Doctrinally, born again Jews & not born again Jews think we should "pray for the peace of Israel." People see it as a sign of the coming end or the coming Messiah. People attach all kinds of doctrinal significance to it. But is that even really Israel over there? I'll post it anywhere the question belongs, but I really just want to know if anyone knows. Awful lot of hubbub going on both politically & doctrinally because it is assumed THAT'S Israel - I mean, if it is not even Israel.
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waysider
From that standpoint, there are two questions that would need to be answered.
1.) Are the people currently inhabiting the region descendants of the people referenced in the Bible?
(There have been DNA studies that address this question.)
2.) Does the current geography coincide with historical records?
( I don't know where to begin with this question.)
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Tom
Wow, DNA, now you're talking. I'll have to see if I can find those studies. Thanks.
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Abigail
I can't personally trace my lineage back to Israel, but my Grandmother said she could, right down to the tribe. It is actually important for Jewish people to know what tribe they come from, as there are genenetic disorders that are specific to the tribe of Benjamin.
As a Jewish person, the significance of Israel comes down to one thing and one thing only. It is not related at all to the Messiah, but to having a nation . . . a home where one could theoretically live without fear of persecution. Sadly, at various points in history during this past century I suspect some of the Jews have been the persecutors instead of the persecuted. :(
In terms of what Israel means doctrinally, that will vary greatly from denomination to denomination. Even the Jews don't have an agreement on that doctrinal issue.
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Twinky
Interesting, don't you think, that the "chosen ones" - the faithful remnant - comprising the tribes of Judah and Benjamin inhabited the area which became known simply as "Judah."
The breakaway tribes, the apostates, those who mingled with the people of the land - the ten northern tribes - they called themselves "Israel."
So, those people who now inhabit the land and claim Jerusalem as their capital city - are they announcing their apostacy to the world?
Why not call the land Judah if it is inhabited by Jews?
I don't see many of them calling themselves Gaddites or Dannites or Manasseh-ites. Nor do you see the members of those other tribes claiming their own homeland. The logical thought is that the other tribes are now masquerading as "Arabs" in general and Palestinians in particular. Could they trace their bloodlines back?
I honestly doubt any of them could really trace their bloodlines back to any of the 12 tribes. I am sure, however, they could trace back reasonably clearly over quite a number of generations, maybe 7 or 8.
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Tom
Thanks for the reply, Abigail. Why is it that your grandmother can trace her lineage, but you can't? Is it because lineage is counted patriarchal-wise, as we were taught in TWI? And your grandmother is your maternal grandmother? Do the genetic disorders specific to the tribe of Benjamin only transmit through the paternal lines?
Also wondering, why do you need a nation to belong to? Isn't the USA or whatever nation enough? Of all immigrant groups, Jews have maintained their heritage & prospered more than most in the US.
Just wondering, you don't have to get into it, but you brought it up, where have the Jews been the persecutors?
Thanks for your honestly on these things.
Tom
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Tom
Sounds like you have legitimate concerns, but you lost me. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could have followed you, but I didn't.
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TrustAndObey
Sounds like a good question to me.. I have never seen/heard of anyone with actual documentation or could actually list every generation going back to the tribes.. Would be cool to see. I've heard a select few say they could, but never any list or documentation.. I don't care about "proving" the list, I'd just like to see that long a list! Easy to fake I guess, but I'm easy to please!
But I can't say I've heard of any.. Most people I know in the genealogical circles are lucky to go back as far as the 1500s.. And even that's rare even with Catholic memberships. Mine never got out of the 1800s without much speculation. But I am convinced I do come from this guy named Noah... Who came from Adam.. Just a hunch my brothers and sisters, just a hunch.. (If I'm wrong, at the least it could have been George of the Jungle we all came from, but I haven't seen anyone list that far either)
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Abigail
Thanks for the reply, Abigail. Why is it that your grandmother can trace her lineage, but you can't? Is it because lineage is counted patriarchal-wise, as we were taught in TWI? And your grandmother is your maternal grandmother? Do the genetic disorders specific to the tribe of Benjamin only transmit through the paternal lines?
Hi Tom, always good to converse with you. It may be that I could trace the lineage back if I tried, but thus far I haven't tried to go back that far. Similarly, I don't know how my maternal grandmother was able to do it and she is no longer with us for me to ask. I only recall her telling me what tribe I stem from on her side of the family.
But, if I were to speculate I coud take a couple of pretty solid educated guesses. One would simply be through oral histories from generation to generation within the family. The other would be through Synagogue documents. When a Jew is born and given their Hebrew name, documentation of the birth, name, and family history are kept by the Synagogue. I have such a naming certificate, that my grandmother gave to me many years ago. It doesn't trace my lineage all the way back, but I would imagine if I had a copy of my grandmothers, and then my great grandmothers, etc. etc. that I could trace it back eventually.
I am not sure if the genetic disorder from the tribe of Benjamin is passed by the father, mother or both. Again, I haven't researched it in depth. But, I have had several physicians ask me (in my younger years when I was starting a family) if I knew what tribe I was from, so they could determine if they needed to test me for it. I'm sure there is information about it on-line.
Is the lineage counted patricarchal-wise? Well, in some respects the Torah would lead us to believe so, but the lineage is also counted through the mother. For instance, if a child is born from a mixed marriage, it is only considered Jewish if the mother is Jewish. The rationale being that (at least prior to DNA testing) one could be certain of who a child's mother was, but paternity could not be verified. Of course, some of the more ultra orthodox sects would argue a child born of a mixed marriage is not truly Jewish regardless of which parent is Jewish. Other ultra orthodox sects would argue that even a chld from a Christian, Muslem, or any other background could potentially be Jewish, in that so many Jews were forced to convert throughout history.
Also wondering, why do you need a nation to belong to? Isn't the USA or whatever nation enough? Of all immigrant groups, Jews have maintained their heritage & prospered more than most in the US.
There were, and still are, Jewish people who would agree with you. There are others who would strongly disagree. A large majority of Jewish people in the USA assimilated and gave up their heritage. And while some prospered, others did not. I am from such a family. On my father's side they were wealthy, secular Jews. On my mother's side, they were poor religious Jews - my great grandfather was a bootlegger for the Purple Gang in Detroit. The two did not often mingle and such marriages as my parents had were highly frowned upon. By my parent's generation, and to some extent even my grandmother's generation, many of the traditions were given up in favor of assimilation.
Although Jewish people were certainly welcome to this country, like other immigrants who came here, they were also often harassed for being different/strange. Even in my mother's generation (as well as my own) we were not so welcome. My parents were harrassed throughout their childhood for being Jewish. I have cousins who to this very day will not wear a Star of David in public, for fear of being identified as a Jew and being harassed. The mother of one of my best friends used to call me "that dirty Jew girl" and she couldn't stand me, because I was not Christian. I was teased a lot as a young child as well. And the irony was that my parents did not practice Judaism. We celebrated Christmas and Easter like everyone else and I even went to Catechism as a child.
In the present day, there are a lot of Jewish people who are returning to their family traditions. They don't want to see the traditions lost. I am one of those, althought I am not and never will be orthodox.
Loss of tradition though assimilation is one reason many Jewish people want a nation of their own. But perhaps even more than that is the risk and fear that history could repeat itself. Hitler was far from the first to persecute and kill Jewish people. Irland was once a second home to many Jewish people, and then it wasn't. Spain was once a second home to many Jewish people, and then it wasn't. Poland, Hungary, Lithuania and so on it went.
So, you have many Jewish people who want a nation of their own. I would be counted among them, altough I have not yet ever been to Israel. I have done a lot of reading on it and would like to go some day. I do have family members who have made their home there.
Conversely, there are other Jewish people who were and are opposed to a Jewish Nation (or at least the way Israel as we know it today came about). They feel that when God calls us back to Israel, He will do so without Jewish people having to "force His hand" through politics and war.
It can all get very complicated. There are many, many divisions among the Jewish people. The wealthier secular/political Jewish people v the poorer more orthodox Jewish people. The various sects and how they apply the laws, etc. etc. And then there are the things that bind us together despite our differences - - the Sabbath Candles on Friday nights, Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur. We argue, we fight, we disagree, and yet we are still one people. :)
Just wondering, you don't have to get into it, but you brought it up, where have the Jews been the persecutors?
Well, just going through the Torah alone, there were many instances where the Jewish people took over a land and killed off or enslaved the inhabitants. And then there is the conflict in our century between the Palestinians and the Jewish people. While I am most certainly in favor of a Jewish nation, I do take issue with some of the methods that were and are used to get us there.
Intially the Palestinian people welcomed the Jewish people and they lived side by side fairly peacefully. Following World War II and the Balfore (spelling) Decree, the Palestinians became second class citizens who were often forcefully removed from their homes, harrassed, beaten up, etc. etc.
While they weren't mass murdered the way the Jewish people in Europe were. . . still, one would think that the experience of World War II would have left the Jewish people immigrating to Palestine/Israel more empathetic towards the plight of the Palestinians who were living there.
BTW, Jewish people (well most of us) dont' see ourselves as "God's chosen people" in the way that some Christians do. We are taught that all humans are God's children, regardless of religion or nationality. The only thing that distinguishes Jewish people from non-Jewish people is that the Jewish people made a committment to God at Mt. Sinai to obey additional commandments that the rest of the people are not subject to.
Many Jewish people, including myself, believe it is our duty to make our homes and communities a better place to be. A peaceful, loving place to be. To give back to the community we live in. Many Christians believe likewise, yes? So in the end, our rituals may be different, but our goals perhaps are not.
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Abigail
Before thre were Jews there were Israelites and then Hebrews. It was not God who broke up the nation of Israel, it was man who did that. All "Jews" are of Israel. All "Jews" are of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
I would suspect, based on your question, that you read the Old Testament from the perspective of a Christian and not the perspective of a Jewish person. The Torah is the first 5 books of the Old Testament. It primarily contains the early history of humanity, and more importantly the commandments of God. The rest of the Old Testament is historical. Just because something occured, does not mean God willed it to be so. Just because the Jewish nation was (and still is) divided, does not mean God willed it to be so. Nor does it mean Jewish people will it to be so.
Whether one is from the tribe of Judah or the tribe of Dan - we are all still of Abrham, Isaac, and Jacob and though in modern venacular we may call ourselves Jews, we are in truth Israelites.
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Ham
From what I get of this.. the ancestry is just as important on the matriarchal side.. interesting. Even in Acts.. wasn't Timothy regarded as the son of a Jewess. Even though the father was a Greek..
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Tom
Possibly because his mother was a Christian believer with honorable biblical mention.
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Abigail
Exactly, Ham. Abraham fathered children by two different women. Yet, only through one of those women came the nation of Israel.
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Ham
Wowser..
thanks friend.
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waysider
Something else to consider: Borders change constantly. Just in our lifetimes, think how many countries have changed their geographic boundaries. The town where my grandfather was born still exists but, it's now part of a country other than the one in which he was born.
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Abigail
Coming back to your initial question. :)/>/>/> Since joining this discussion I began googling Jewish Genetic Disorders. It appears that science has come a long ways since I was first asked what tribe I come from and a LOT of scientific data is available.
So, after researching this - "Are the people there really the children of Israel. Can they traice their lineage back to biblical Israel?" Yes, yes they can.
As a ethnic group/nationality - Jews are broken down into two basic subgroups (there are other subgroups as well, but for the purpose of this discussion we'll stick with the two that have been most studied). There are the Ashkenazi Jews of Eastern Europe and there are the Sephardic Jews of Spain and the mediterranean.
The vast majority of DNA studies have been performed on Ashkenazi Jews, in part because the majority of Jewish Genetic disorders are more prevelant amoung them. One of the primary reasons for this has to do with the fact that Sephardic Jews assimilated and intermarried earlier, and more frequently than Ashkenazi Jews. Sephardic Jews were forced to convert to Christianity and assimilate.
Ashkenazi Jews, by and large, only married within their own nationality/culture up until my mother's generation. As a result for the most part the DNA is more "pure" or perhaps better put, has not been mingled with other ethnic groups.
There are a number of genetic disorders that occur at significantly higher rate among Ashkenazi Jews than among any other nationality. The one I was asked about was Tay Sach's disease, but there are a number of others as well. These disorders can occur as fequently as 1 in 100 amoung Ashkenazi Jews - as opposed to 1 in 3,500 or so in other nationalities.
In the process of studying these genetic disorders, scientists have traced the Ashkenazi Jewish line back to the middle east. They believe that what happened was after the fall of the second temple a "somewhat smaller" group of Jews migrated to Turkey, then Iraq, and eventually to Eastern Europe. They did not assimilate ino the various societies, but instead remained relatively isolated and continued to only marry within their nationality.
Now, back to Isreael. The vast majority of Jews who immigrated to Israel were Ashkenazi Jews, fleeing before, during, and after WW2. A large number of American Jews are also of Ashkenazi descent.
So yes, I believe the Jews in Israel are of the same bloodline as the Jews of Biblical days.
Edit to fix the many typos - OY, must drink more coffee!!
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waysider
You got that right, sister! :P
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Abigail
Here are a few links for you.
The forefathers of the Ashkenazi community began to settle in parts of Europe during the Roman Empire, particularly after the Romans conquered Jerusalem in AD 70. Ashkenazis now make up more than 80 percent of world Jewry. They moved to Spain, France, Italy and other Mediterranean basin countries, but spread over the centuries to the Rhineland in Germany, Poland and Russia. Frequent persecution kept their numbers small. Modern Ashkenazi Jews are believed to descend from about 1,500 Jewish families dating back to the 14th century. But Darvasi said the forefathers of today's Ashkenazis came from an even smaller gene pool. Darvasi said "maybe 500 families were really the source of the total (Ashkenazi) population today...probably in the order of 100 independent chromosomes", because they enjoyed better nutrition and had lower infant mortality rates than less affluent Jews.
Above from here
"Some disease mutations unusually common in Ashkenazi Jews... include Tay-Sachs disease and some forms of breast cancer, high cholesterol and hemophilia. ... It just happened that those who founded the Ashkenazi Jewish population had disease mutations and passed them along to their children. Because Ashkenazi Jews tend to marry within their own population, those mutations remained common.... He [Dr. Neil Risch of Stanford University Medical Center, working with colleagues] found three points in time when mutations entered the population. One mutation has been in the Jewish population for 120 generations - around the time that the Jewish people formed a distinct population in the Middle East. This mutation causes a type of hemophilia called Factor 11 deficiency type II. The majority of the mutations - including all of the mutations in lysosomal storage genes - entered the population when the Ashkenazi Jews formed a coherent group about 50 generations ago. The final mutations cropped up in the Lithuanian Ashkenazi Jews about 12 generations ago."
Above from Here
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Tom
Wow, lot of stuff here & throughout. No offense intended, but this sounds like typical OT Jews to me :). God blesses them through no righteous merit on their part, & somehow it becomes a matter of THEY'RE doing or not doing. I don't think historically that worked too well for them. Paul called it, "going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." Really, no offense meant, Abigail; I just got a smile out of that one. Gotta love em.
Beautiful philanthropic philosophy toward all the world you mentioned though. I've seen that as part and parcel of their present day culture in many (figured I'd better say something nice).
"So yes, I believe the Jews in Israel are of the same bloodline as the Jews of Biblical days."
Very cool, thanks for the homework & answer.
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Tom
Wow, thanks. I bought Dragon Natural Speaking 12 recently, & they gave me a free version of Family Tree software with it. It came with a brief period of free use of ancestry.com resources, but I was too busy to use them at the time, & it's harder to put together a lineage without them.
I asked my dad (Jewish ancestry) where he was born, but all he knows is Brooklyn. I was looking at his birth certificate today (for unrelated cause). I'll have to take another look (safety deposit box), but it was pretty hard to read. I might have to send for another one. I hope I can contact a nearby Synagogue & be able to trace that document. That would be great.
Thanks for sharing all this great stuff & heart. I always love conversing with you also.
:knuddel:/>
Tom
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Abigail
No offense taken, Tom. I most certainly cannot speak for all Jews, but from my perspective it isn't an issue of righteousness or lack thereof. The focus in Judaism isn't the afterlife - it isn't about heaven or hell. In fact, Judaism doesn't believe in the concept of hell and there is much debate among Jewish people regarding the concept of heaven as well. :) Perhaps, ask your dad to explain the Days of Awe and Yom Kippur to you. Those are two of the most important Jewish holy days and understanding them might give you a good understanding of the Jewish perspective on life and death.
The focus, at least from my perspective, is simply on the here and now. How to live the life I have been given. Fairly down to earth and practicAL. But then, I am not orthodox either. Like many American Jews I pick and choose. I observe those things that make sense to me. I focus on the ethics, not the rituals. I do observe those rituals that speak to my heart, but I don't worry about those that do not make sense to me or just plain do not speak to me.
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